1/11/2010 MM: "Milling, About"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning (after the holiday break) on magicthegathering.com.

So milling is not unfun enough to remove, because some players like it, but countermagic is, even though some players like it. Got it.

But why? What's the difference between the card getting milled and it just being the bottom card of the deck? Logically, very little.

Not that little. You now can play around not drawing it!

...which doesn't actually defeat your point. Keep on keepin' on, mill. I got no qualms about you existing. Your brothers Stone Rain and Counterspell would be cool too, or at least their little kids, but I'll take what I can get.
...Altar of Dementia was just me pushing back. How about a milling deck that required you to play creatures? What would that look like?



Really?  Did you seriously expect anyone to bother with a creature-based milling deck when you also printed Grindstone in the very same set?

Also, come to think of it, why didn't Grindstone get mentioned in this article even once?
I will never understand the warped mentality it would take for someone to actually want to try games of Magic this way at the kitchen table, let alone in a tournament.
If Glimpse is the second most popular Ravnica card, what's the first? I guess I could just Google it.
Contest Winners
Random Words
Round 1: Maraxas-of-Keld, Cryos_Icy_Manipulator Round 2: Dr_Demento, UltraMaximum Round 3: Dr_Demento, Keino Round 4: KunouNoHana Round 5: Maraxas-of-Keld, Stigma_Lasher Round 6: royinator Round 7: forty2j Round 8: Qazior Round 9: Qazior Round 10: Could be you link
Split Cards
Winner: dberry02
Pac-Man
Round 1: Fallingman
Worldprism
Quotes
57051078 wrote:
I just love how focused the YMtC community is.
56901828 wrote:
That's what I love about posting on these forums. Everyone's an expert(except for me).
57031358 wrote:
really no need to be so bitchy.
58021268 wrote:
@Edacade: Awright kid you go on ahead and do your thing and don't let anyone tell you different y'hear
58335208 wrote:
City of Asymmetrical Beings Land :T:, sacrifice a creature: Destroy target creature with the same converted mana cost as the sacrificed creature.
56957928 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
Might I just interject that making this a meme is the worst idea in magic in my opinion. It is too overpowered. It encourages cheating it in play. Essentially 99/100 times it is cheated in play instead of hardcast. Not only that, but you essentially win when it comes into play.
74943291 wrote:
82512575 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Make five-color hybrid tribal instant with buyback, kicker, cycling, card draw, token production, a steal effect, alternate casting cost and landfall that embodies the love that your mom and I share.
I think you just killed all chances of my card being elegant. Ardency :1mana::symwu::symbr: Tribal Instant - Soldier You may have target opponent gain control of 3 permanents you control rather than pay ~'s mana cost. As an additional cost to cast ~, choose two creatures you control, and sacrifice the rest. If you control a soldier, you can't sacrifice permanents this turn. Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, instead choose 4 creatures. Kicker You get an emblem with "As long as you control both chosen creatures, they have protection from everything." If ~ was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard until end of turn. Cycling :2mana: When you cycle ~, put two 2/2 Soldier creatures onto the battlefield. Would this EVER fit on a card?~
Aside from a few wording mishaps (should say "each chosen creature" because it's not necessarily two) this is nice. Very simple and elegant. I like the alternate cost a lot, and the kicker goes nicely with the sacrifice. However, the cycling seems a bit powerful (4 power and a card for 3? Cycling is supposed be bad. 8/10 EDIT: Just looked up "ardency". Lol.
58347268 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
58325628 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I'm immortalized too as long as no one deletes this post!
But in the shadow of the great one lurked many who sought to partake of his eternal glory.
Since when am I "many"?
You're a whole damn city.
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Ahem.
58021268 wrote:
Vivisect Sorcery As an additional cost to cast Vivisect, sacrifice a creature. Draw three cards. "For the sake of humanity," the surgeon whispered. The knife had never felt heavier in his hand.
I don't think a world that sacrifices so much would want to stop the making of children .
Vivisect =/= vasectomy
Now I just feel silly.
56287226 wrote:
I read over two hundred webcomics on a regular basis. "Terrible" doesn't even begin to describe me.
70246459 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I think that this is the first wizards-community thread that actually made me laugh out loud. Maraxas, I love you.
IMAGE(http://www.free-smiley-faces.de/free-animated-smileys_Smileys-animiert-kostenlos/free-animated-smiley-love_smiley-herz-animiert-kostenlos_250x250.gif)
58347268 wrote:
batman is a jerk in all of my dreams
mafia is fun so play it
I will never understand the warped mentality it would take for someone to actually want to try games of Magic this way at the kitchen table, let alone in a tournament.



More for me, then. Glimpse the Unthinkable plus Izzet Guildmage with Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni as backup...good times. (Yeah, the deck was garbage by tournament standards. Fun, though.)

If Glimpse is the second most popular Ravnica card, what's the first? I guess I could just Google it.



I'm guessing Lightning Helix.

It's always bugged me the way Black and Blue got milling divided up. Between the two of them, I'd think blue would be the one more concerned with skillful manipulation and black would be the one concerned with brute force "drive them insane until they lose their whole personality." I mean, look at the name "Traumatize." That sounds way more black than blue. Which type of mage would you imagine torturing someone until they lose half their soul?
I will never understand the warped mentality it would take for someone to actually want to try games of Magic this way at the kitchen table, let alone in a tournament.


Wouldn't milling your friends be worse than milling a stranger? And, turn-three Painter's Servant Grindstone isn't all that different from Channel-Fireball or anything else. If someone killed me turn five with the Hedron Crab deck they drafted, I would crack up. I've been trying to do that since Day One.
Contest Winners
Random Words
Round 1: Maraxas-of-Keld, Cryos_Icy_Manipulator Round 2: Dr_Demento, UltraMaximum Round 3: Dr_Demento, Keino Round 4: KunouNoHana Round 5: Maraxas-of-Keld, Stigma_Lasher Round 6: royinator Round 7: forty2j Round 8: Qazior Round 9: Qazior Round 10: Could be you link
Split Cards
Winner: dberry02
Pac-Man
Round 1: Fallingman
Worldprism
Quotes
57051078 wrote:
I just love how focused the YMtC community is.
56901828 wrote:
That's what I love about posting on these forums. Everyone's an expert(except for me).
57031358 wrote:
really no need to be so bitchy.
58021268 wrote:
@Edacade: Awright kid you go on ahead and do your thing and don't let anyone tell you different y'hear
58335208 wrote:
City of Asymmetrical Beings Land :T:, sacrifice a creature: Destroy target creature with the same converted mana cost as the sacrificed creature.
56957928 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
Might I just interject that making this a meme is the worst idea in magic in my opinion. It is too overpowered. It encourages cheating it in play. Essentially 99/100 times it is cheated in play instead of hardcast. Not only that, but you essentially win when it comes into play.
74943291 wrote:
82512575 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Make five-color hybrid tribal instant with buyback, kicker, cycling, card draw, token production, a steal effect, alternate casting cost and landfall that embodies the love that your mom and I share.
I think you just killed all chances of my card being elegant. Ardency :1mana::symwu::symbr: Tribal Instant - Soldier You may have target opponent gain control of 3 permanents you control rather than pay ~'s mana cost. As an additional cost to cast ~, choose two creatures you control, and sacrifice the rest. If you control a soldier, you can't sacrifice permanents this turn. Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, instead choose 4 creatures. Kicker You get an emblem with "As long as you control both chosen creatures, they have protection from everything." If ~ was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard until end of turn. Cycling :2mana: When you cycle ~, put two 2/2 Soldier creatures onto the battlefield. Would this EVER fit on a card?~
Aside from a few wording mishaps (should say "each chosen creature" because it's not necessarily two) this is nice. Very simple and elegant. I like the alternate cost a lot, and the kicker goes nicely with the sacrifice. However, the cycling seems a bit powerful (4 power and a card for 3? Cycling is supposed be bad. 8/10 EDIT: Just looked up "ardency". Lol.
58347268 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
58325628 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I'm immortalized too as long as no one deletes this post!
But in the shadow of the great one lurked many who sought to partake of his eternal glory.
Since when am I "many"?
You're a whole damn city.
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
83237429 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
Ahem.
58021268 wrote:
Vivisect Sorcery As an additional cost to cast Vivisect, sacrifice a creature. Draw three cards. "For the sake of humanity," the surgeon whispered. The knife had never felt heavier in his hand.
I don't think a world that sacrifices so much would want to stop the making of children .
Vivisect =/= vasectomy
Now I just feel silly.
56287226 wrote:
I read over two hundred webcomics on a regular basis. "Terrible" doesn't even begin to describe me.
70246459 wrote:
74943291 wrote:
I think that this is the first wizards-community thread that actually made me laugh out loud. Maraxas, I love you.
IMAGE(http://www.free-smiley-faces.de/free-animated-smileys_Smileys-animiert-kostenlos/free-animated-smiley-love_smiley-herz-animiert-kostenlos_250x250.gif)
58347268 wrote:
batman is a jerk in all of my dreams
mafia is fun so play it
Overall good article, but a few points of critiscism:

I wouldn't call Jace Beleren a "milling card" any more than I would call Elspeth a "make my stuff indestructible" card. Planeswalkers are defined infinitely more by their non-ultimate abilities than by their ultimates, so I would instead call Jace a card drawing utility card, more akin to Divination or Mulldrifter than Traumatize or Tome Scour, which only work within a dedicated mill strategy. /nitpick

About the Arc-Slogger section - Another key difference between a card getting milled and a card on the bottom of a library is the issue of revealing information to the opponent; if my sweet dragon gets milled I'm not sad just because I won't draw it, I'm also sad because my opponent will know to play around it in subsequent games.

For example, sideboarding into Tombstalkers and Goyfs in extended Dredge is a tough thing to conceal going into game three, even if you never draw them game two. Siding creatures into something like Scapeshift is an easier secret to keep (provided you don't draw/play them, of course).

Speaking of Dredge, Maro didn't talk much about self-milling as a viable strategy, a la Cephalid Breakfast, Dredge/Ichorid, etc. He mentions Hedron Crab's milling power, but doesn't touch on the fact that it's often directed at its controller... One thing I would be interested in is how the dredge mechanic itself was designed. Was it originally meant as a drawback or an advantage? How did R&D settle on 6 for Grave-Troll, 3 for Loam, etc?
...Altar of Dementia was just me pushing back. How about a milling deck that required you to play creatures? What would that look like?



Really?  Did you seriously expect anyone to bother with a creature-based milling deck when you also printed Grindstone in the very same set?

Also, come to think of it, why didn't Grindstone get mentioned in this article even once?



Hey Altar of Dementia was awesome. 

Not _good_, mind.  But a whole lot of fun to tool around with, precisely because it pushed you in different directions. 

I hadn't realized that MaRo was responsible for creating it.  Gives me warm fuzzies that he likes one of the same quirky aspects of the game that I do, and that he got to go from liking it as a fan, to making more of it as a designer. 

~ Patch
Milling is by default a very uninteractive mechanic. It's like playing against a creatureless red burn deck, except that your deck is your life total.

I don't mind mill, but it should be pushed strongly toward highly interactive mill. Altar of Dementia is a perfect example (and should be put in a core set), as are Reef Pirates (though it needs to mill lots more cards.) Hedron Crab and the merfolk aren't interesting or interactive enough.

Please make mill more interactive.
I like the idea of a creature that gets bigger or badder when you pay a mana and mill cost, i.e. Arc-Slogger.  I think the real weakness of Arc-Slogger was its color.  If it were black, it would be great with dredge effects.
So milling is not unfun enough to remove, because some players like it, but countermagic is, even though some players like it. Got it.




From another thread:
The major difference between Counters and Mill is that Counterspells are actually good.

Countering a spell disables an immediate threat.  Milling tries to disable future threats, but does nothing for the present state of the game and is just as likely to catch a threat as it is to catch the cards that used to be directly on top of that threat.  All Mill really has going for it is that it's occasionally quite useful to mill oneself, with some very rare times when it's possible to mill in quantities of "all of them".


So milling is not unfun enough to remove, because some players like it, but countermagic is, even though some players like it. Got it.




From another thread:
The major difference between Counters and Mill is that Counterspells are actually good.

Countering a spell disables an immediate threat.  Milling tries to disable future threats, but does nothing for the present state of the game and is just as likely to catch a threat as it is to catch the cards that used to be directly on top of that threat.  All Mill really has going for it is that it's occasionally quite useful to mill oneself, with some very rare times when it's possible to mill in quantities of "all of them".




Which is partly why Discard is not as good as Counterspelling, it never effects board position, just future possibility.  Yes, it may screw up your current plan, but it also gives you a chance to change said plan.  Counterspells simply say, "no, thanks for wasting the resources."
Opponent turn 1

Fetchland go

me

island go

eot

Fetch, Find

me


ARCHIVE TRAP!!! X4

Win.


13 x 4 + 7 +1 =60

4 Archive traps, seven card hand, one card that was seached for.
What's the difference between the card getting milled and it just being the bottom card of the deck? Logically, very little. Psychologically, a lot. The card sitting in your deck is potentially your next draw. Sure, you might never draw it, but you don't know that. The lack of knowledge about where it is gives a player hope. A similar phenomenon can be seen with lottery tickets. A man buys a lottery ticket for a fifty million dollar payout. The ticket is exciting until the moment he learns that it's not a winner. Until the drawing, the ticket is potentially fifty million dollars. That's exciting even if the math says the chance of getting that money is infinitesimally small.



Quite aside from Seeker_after_Chaos and NeverendingDream's excellent points, let's say the probability of drawing one's dragon is one in forty (or however many cards you have left in your deck, forty for this example). Also worth mentioning is that thanks to the draw step, that probability is getting at least one better every turn, and more with some form of card drawing.

Something some people don't realise about probabilities (although I'd like to think MaRo does) is that changes have more relative impact at lower probabilities than at higher ones. 40:33 isn't that different from 40:34, but 40:1 is statistically a massive difference from 40:2. In Magic terms, with forty cards in your deck, if one of those is a dragon, you have a one in forty chance of drawing it. If two of them are dragons, it increases your chances to one in twenty. Adding a third dragon (again, incrementally, just one card) increases it to a little over one in thirteen - a smaller jump than the previous one.

The biggest change in probability? The change from n:1 to n:0.

If your dragon gets milled, the probability just changed from 40:1 to 40:0. You do not have the option of drawing that dragon. That's not just a big psychological effect. It's a huge statistical effect. If you were relying on that dragon to punch through a stalemate, you have now crossed the statistical threshold of it being a reasonable possibility. One could argue that 40:1, then 39:1 the next turn, then 38:1 and so forth, is not necessarily a reasonable possibility either, but either way it's a hell of a lot more reasonable than 40:0.


------------------


Anyway, interesting article. Although it didn't go as in-depth as I personally prefer, I know that not every article should. That said the relationship between milling and countering would be nice to see explored, as milling has been pushed in recent years where countering, card drawing and bouncing have been scaled back, so that milling is now arguably one of blue's premier mechanics. I only say this because of the fascinating discussion in the feedback topic from Tom LaPille's article on friday. Blue seems to be in something of a transitory state right now, and although obviously one would not expect anyone in R&D to outline where blue's identity is headed, I'm still curious as to what the market research identifies as player responses to milling and countering beyond the usual and very vague "some players like X more than Y".
...Altar of Dementia was just me pushing back. How about a milling deck that required you to play creatures? What would that look like?



Really?  Did you seriously expect anyone to bother with a creature-based milling deck when you also printed Grindstone in the very same set?



Altar of Dementia is MUCH more popular around the casual table, I've seen it in many different johnny decks that can make endless creatures, or endless recurring creatures, as a finisher in colors where something like Goblin Bombardment isn't available Smile

It's always bugged me the way Black and Blue got milling divided up. Between the two of them, I'd think blue would be the one more concerned with skillful manipulation and black would be the one concerned with brute force "drive them insane until they lose their whole personality." I mean, look at the name "Traumatize." That sounds way more black than blue. Which type of mage would you imagine torturing someone until they lose half their soul?



Traumatize just isn't a good name for blue and would fit better on a black-style milling card ("there, I just put all 6 of your dragons in your graveyard" Now that's a trauma).

I think the black-style milling is very close to discard (see cards like Psychotic Episode) and that's why it's in black. Also, 9 out of 10 mechanics sounds better in blue because blue is the color of wizards and magic in a game about wizards and magic =p
Was anyone else annoyed at not getting to read the original memory erosion?

I'd have loved to hear what the original 'three hoops' were. As is, it seems a teaser for something that may never come and that makes me sad.
I was sad that Nemesis of Reason didn't get a shout-out.  With his crazy art, splashy effect, and big butt, he's one of my favorite mill cards in the game right now (and has worked well alongside Szadek in my kitchen-table Mill deck).

It's going to be hard to beat Painter's Servant + Grindstone for milling, obviously, but having the big, crazy Nemesis out there is just fun.
I was sad that Nemesis of Reason didn't get a shout-out.  With his crazy art, splashy effect, and big butt, he's one of my favorite mill cards in the game right now (and has worked well alongside Szadek in my kitchen-table Mill deck).

It's going to be hard to beat Painter's Servant + Grindstone for milling, obviously, but having the big, crazy Nemesis out there is just fun.



Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void is not too bad either.
January, 2010

First, players get frustrated oposing countermagic; now milling?

So, the solution is to develop/print less counters and less millings?

What is the next? Discard? Destroy lands?

Frustrated players need pshychological help, not this kind of action.

=/

JV
So milling is not unfun enough to remove, because some players like it, but countermagic is, even though some players like it. Got it.




From another thread:
The major difference between Counters and Mill is that Counterspells are actually good.

Countering a spell disables an immediate threat.  Milling tries to disable future threats, but does nothing for the present state of the game and is just as likely to catch a threat as it is to catch the cards that used to be directly on top of that threat.  All Mill really has going for it is that it's occasionally quite useful to mill oneself, with some very rare times when it's possible to mill in quantities of "all of them".





As an experienced player I fully understand how the game works. But the same people that don't like their creature countered (as opposed to killed immediately) are the same people that aren't going to like their favorite card in the graveyard before they could even play it. That was my point.
Casual milling is such a downer because kitchen tables decks are often made out of what you have on hand, including many singletons instead of full playsets.  Thus, if your ONE dragon gets milled away, its kind of dissappointing.

Tournament guys know that a properly constructed deck is mostly homogenous, thus milling away 20 cards does nothing to the actual makeup of the deck.   There is statistically the same probablility of drawing a particular card before the mill as after. 

Thus, for milling to get more powerful, it would have to alienate the casual crowd and become more "un-fun" by definition.  I don't see this as happening, thus I don't see milling ever becoming a tournament staple.
But the same people that don't like their creature countered (as opposed to killed immediately) are the same people that aren't going to like their favorite card in the graveyard before they could even play it. That was my point.

And my point is that R&D also fully knows Mill doesn't really matter much.
Or rather, they fully know that a kid who gets his single copy of that dragon Milled off is eventually going to get the idea to get another copy of that dragon.



Thus, for milling to get more powerful, it would have to alienate the casual crowd and become more "un-fun" by definition.  I don't see this as happening, thus I don't see milling ever becoming a tournament staple.




I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.  I'm pretty sure Milling is a tournament staple already.  Didn't Jacerator make it fairly far in Worlds? 


I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to correct me.
I'm really interested to see a Worldwake card MaRo mentioned. The one that combos well with Hedron Crab. And if we could see that card in it's original (unchanged) design that would be awesome!
I will never understand the warped mentality it would take for someone to actually want to try games of Magic this way at the kitchen table, let alone in a tournament.



It generates some great advantage. If Vedalken Entrancer sticks you're milling 2 cards a turn.

I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
But the same people that don't like their creature countered (as opposed to killed immediately) are the same people that aren't going to like their favorite card in the graveyard before they could even play it. That was my point.

And my point is that R&D also fully knows Mill doesn't really matter much.
Or rather, they fully know that a kid who gets his single copy of that dragon Milled off is eventually going to get the idea to get another copy of that dragon.





Mill is for a current game state worthless.

If you're facing a big hunk of beef and all you have is Duress that card won't change the game state much either.

Mill is made to get rid of possible threats. And for those that like card avantage mill can do that in spades. 
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
But the same people that don't like their creature countered (as opposed to killed immediately) are the same people that aren't going to like their favorite card in the graveyard before they could even play it. That was my point.

And my point is that R&D also fully knows Mill doesn't really matter much.
Or rather, they fully know that a kid who gets his single copy of that dragon Milled off is eventually going to get the idea to get another copy of that dragon.




There's also the chance that the Dragon was on the bottom of the deck and he would never have drawn it, if his opponent hadn't been kind enough to remove the thirty cards sitting on top of it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It's always bugged me the way Black and Blue got milling divided up. Between the two of them, I'd think blue would be the one more concerned with skillful manipulation and black would be the one concerned with brute force "drive them insane until they lose their whole personality." I mean, look at the name "Traumatize." That sounds way more black than blue. Which type of mage would you imagine torturing someone until they lose half their soul?



I agree with this. I think its a historical accident that blue got indiscriminate milling and black got surgical milling. Blue has far more skill and precision to need to deal with things that way. By contrast Black has a singular disregard for collateral damage.
I'm a bit surprised that Jester's Cap effects weren't mentioned. Oh well.

That sort of ability strikes me as very "blue" and should move a bit from artifacts.
I know cards of its type aren't milling cards, per se, but I'm surprised that the bit about milling in Alpha made no mention of decking via Brainstorm (or a bunch of Ancestral Recalls or whatever).
I'm a bit surprised that Jester's Cap effects weren't mentioned. Oh well.

That sort of ability strikes me as very "blue" and should move a bit from artifacts.



actually its kind of been moved into black with Sadistic Sacrament.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
And for those that like card avantage mill can do that in spades. 



Actually milling is card disadvantage.  It costs you cards but doesn't destroy anything of theirs, make them discard, prevent them from drawing, etc.  Milling off the top of a shuffled deck is just like burning your opponent to the face:  you haven't accomplished anything until you finish them.

I hope Maro actually writes the article about poison counters. 
My favorite milling story: Ben Bleiweiss's Orcish Spy/Millstone deck beating a red burn deck.  www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a...


I like the idea of a creature that gets bigger or badder when you pay a mana and mill cost, i.e. Arc-Slogger.  I think the real weakness of Arc-Slogger was its color.  If it were black, it would be great with dredge effects.

And if it put the cards in your graveyard, rather than removing them from the game. 
I'm pretty happy to find out that MaRo is actually a big milling proponent - that's a good sign for more milling cards getting printed.

Champions of Kamigawa was, for me at least, the best Limited format for the mill deck.  Splicing Dampen Thought onto Dampen Thought is so much fun!
It's always bugged me the way Black and Blue got milling divided up. Between the two of them, I'd think blue would be the one more concerned with skillful manipulation and black would be the one concerned with brute force "drive them insane until they lose their whole personality." I mean, look at the name "Traumatize." That sounds way more black than blue. Which type of mage would you imagine torturing someone until they lose half their soul?



I agree with this. I think its a historical accident that blue got indiscriminate milling and black got surgical milling. Blue has far more skill and precision to need to deal with things that way. By contrast Black has a singular disregard for collateral damage.




While I agree from a tool standpoint black has mass discard as well. So if black got mass milling AND mass discard black would be a pain to play again.

Wiping someones memory is a blue trick. Milling is how that sort of thing accomplished. 
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
I absolutely agree with Hacimen. The last two articles have been symptomatic of WOTC inconsistent, self indulgent approach to card design at the moment. Blue is neutered because "some people don't like to play counters" while milling is celebrated despite being the most despised strategy available.

But the chief designer likes it...

Makes politicians seems like altruists.
And for those that like card avantage mill can do that in spades. 



Actually milling is card disadvantage.  It costs you cards but doesn't destroy anything of theirs, make them discard, prevent them from drawing, etc.  Milling off the top of a shuffled deck is just like burning your opponent to the face:  you haven't accomplished anything until you finish them.

I hope Maro actually writes the article about poison counters. 



I play Glimpe the Unthinkable.

Barring recursion that's 10 cards lost for them and 1 lost for me.

You hit someone with burn and while they lose life you lose resources. Whereas cards like Glimpse and the like expend your resources in exhange for taking a lot of resources from them.

While mill isn't something I'd make as a focus without some other way to last through what they actually draw it yields advantage over time.



I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
Was anyone else annoyed at not getting to read the original memory erosion?

I'd have loved to hear what the original 'three hoops' were. As is, it seems a teaser for something that may never come and that makes me sad.



I was. Perhaps they are going to use the loops in other cards in the near future?
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
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