Hybrids LFR legal on the 19th

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Just wanted to make sure this was clear. With the release of the Debut on hybrids they will be legal, like all other debut content. I was just talking to Chris Tulach about it and thought I should pass it on incase anyone is considering making a new character in the next few weeks.

Artificer will be included in the Jan 19th release but PH3 specific classes will not be in. Also MP2 builds will not be. Those will come out with the release of PH3.

Character builder will be updated with the artificer as well as the final versions of the other hybrid classes on the 19th as usual for debut content.

Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
Wow thats huge news.
Sounds like DDXP is going to need some more level 1-4 tables!

Thank you for letting us know mdonais, its much appreciated.  
While your here could you let us know if Warforged are legal for LFR play? 
Yes warforged are legal. If you are ever unsure on what is legal you can go to the wiki page here:

community.wizards.com/lfr/wiki/Legal_Opt...

Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
While your here could you let us know if Warforged are legal for LFR play? 



*starts flaying the monk*

In an honest question, is there any word on how Hybrid Assassins will be handled?
What makes me sad - no more compiled magazines: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27580349/Dungeon_and_Dragon_Magazine_PDFs&post_num=24#495423645
Yes warforged are legal. If you are ever unsure on what is legal you can go to the wiki page here:

community.wizards.com/lfr/wiki/Legal_Opt...



Makes you wonder whether the serious answer is a joke or not ;) Just in case Mike, the warforged question is an ongoing joke on these boards.
Hybrid Damphyr Warforged Paladin-Barbararian of Kelemvor

I am not sure I can resist

Well and on a more serious note, I guess I know what dragon article I will be going through with a fine comb this month.  
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
Wow thats huge news.
Sounds like DDXP is going to need some more level 1-4 tables!

Thank you for letting us know mdonais, its much appreciated.  
While your here could you let us know if Warforged are legal for LFR play? 



If I had had coffee in my mouth, you would owe me a new computer screen. Simply a work of beauty. This is the LFR version of Rick Rollin'.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

Hybrids?

Oh no.

Perhaps it's my imagination, but most of the really broken rubbish on Charop involves hybrids. I wonder if the debut rules have tweaked them?
Everything on the CharOp boards is hybrid. Hybrids are simply broken. I certainly hope the PtB are considering allowing mass rebuilds for everyone. I know 90% of my characters are completely invalidated by hybrids and I have no interest in starting them all over.

My paragon multiclassed warlock in particular will shed a tear.
Perhaps it's my imagination, but most of the really broken rubbish on Charop involves hybrids. I wonder if the debut rules have tweaked them?


Um... It's your imagination?  Most of the really broken stuff doesn't use hybrids.  (Orbizard, Ranger/Pitfighter, superchargers, broom builds).  The only broken things I see out of Hybrids are Feychargers, and they don't need it.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I know 90% of my characters are completely invalidated by hybrids and I have no interest in starting them all over



New and arguably more optimized options do not invalidate your character. I'm confident that you didn't have trouble succeeding in LFR modules in the past - that's not going to change just because hybrids are legal.

Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
I've been saying that for almost a decade now Dkay through multiple conversions but nobody ever seems to believe me.
Hybrids can be misleading. I think a lot of them show up in char ops discussion because it seems powerful... but the tradeoffs prevent them from really being stronger than other options. As you start looking at the true cost of taking feats to get back the lost powers you end up giving up the ground gained by non-hybrids that take power-enhancing feats. There are some wacky hybrid things out there, though.

But, regardless, LFR has always been a campaign that takes all the rules. Hybrids will be in. Some players will cheese them, some will RP them, etc.

I agree that it doesn't change the rest of us... unless the encounter difficulty is upped. So long as we keep things reasonable to the average, the game should play fine for the "old" PCs.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

Heh, the whole thing reminds me of the valley girl tv stereotype..

But Daaaaaaad! I know Tootsels is a perfectly fine Chihuahua, but my friend Brittany gets to have a  Lhasa Apso so I need to trade Tootsels in for a Lhasa Apso too because else my life will be over! I will be the only one without a Lhasa Apso of all my friends...

well that and how often do you get to use Lhase Apso in a post, really

But seriously, I suspect the hybrid rules may have changed a little on some fronts, and its not all that bad as is. We will see some new crazy stuff, we will be be regaled with fresh and original (well ok maybe not so original) tales of woe and it will be business as usual. 
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;

Just wanted to make sure this was clear. With the release of the Debut on hybrids they will be legal, like all other debut content. I was just talking to Chris Tulach about it and thought I should pass it on incase anyone is considering making a new character in the next few weeks.

Artificer will be included in the Jan 19th release but PH3 specific classes will not be in. Also MP2 builds will not be. Those will come out with the release of PH3.




    Now can anybody give me a link to the hybrid rules?

I would suggest waiting for the, possibly updated, article on hybrids in this months Dragon.

To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.

You are right that in many cases Hybrids are only as good, or in some cases worse, than a normal character. However, in other cases they are many times better. This introduces a massive dose of system mastery that was supposed to be dead and gone along with 3.5. Newer players will make a character, play a few sessions, learn about the hybrid rules, and then realize that their character would be so much cooler if he/she were a hybrid.

Yes, hybrids do invalidate my characters. One of my characters paragon multiclassed to warlock to get Eldritch Strike. I want my 4 feats and paragon path back.
New and arguably more optimized options do not invalidate your character. I'm confident that you didn't have trouble succeeding in LFR modules in the past - that's not going to change just because hybrids are legal.


A player who sits down at a table with someone playing a PC who can do everything his character can do, just as well, plus more, is likely to feel he's no longer really contributing to the group and have less fun.  Additionally, if modules are balanced based on new, more powerful character options, new optimized options obviously do decrease the chances of succeeding in LFR modules.

This is, of course, assuming that hybrids are more vulnerable to broken synergies than single-class characters, which seems likely to me.

I have zero faith in WOTC R&D, because their paradigm of what type of game they're creating rules for is different from the game we're playing.  These are the same guys who gave us Grasp of the Grave and see nothing wrong with the Dice of Auspicious Fortune.  Their philosophy often seems to be that an obvious problem isn't, because any combination that is so broken that no sane DM would allow it is easily corrected by a sane DM.

Unfortunately, the LFR campaign doesn't have one of those.

It's not really the designers' fault, however.  Accusing R&D of creating rules that don't work well without a DM to deal with corner cases would be like accusing them of creating rules that don't work well for space combat.  They're not really trying to create rules for either case.

Hybrids, by their very nature, will be more prone to corner cases, which does not bode well for their impact upon the campaign.
Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.


Hybrids, by virtue of breaking unspoken rules, have Potential to be broken.  There may be specific synergies that hybrids enable.

But the overwhelming majority of the time, they are unworkably bad, not unworkably good.  The current limitations are too strict to get anything good out of them.  (Except for Faychargers).  You'll see them used for Record builds, but those won't point out an AC 10 under par, or some similar vulnerability that makes the character unworkable.

At least with the current rules.  We'll see with the new ones.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Am I the only one who is a lot more worried about how we'll get a lot more people who have _really bad_ characters, as a result of hybrids? Like you think you're getting a defender or leader, or somesuch, and you're really getting a guy who _can_ mark, but never does since he's not using that at-will... or can heal... once per encounter... at 16th... for hardly any extra.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Am I the only one who is a lot more worried about how we'll get a lot more people who have _really bad_ characters, as a result of hybrids?


No.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

This is a good point.  One of the selling points of 4.0 was supposed to be that even "bad" players could make decent characters, i.e. the power curve was flatter.  By opening up complexity you do invite people to try characters who end up being jack of all trades (an mediocre way) and master of none.

Daren

Am I the only one who is a lot more worried about how we'll get a lot more people who have _really bad_ characters, as a result of hybrids? Like you think you're getting a defender or leader, or somesuch, and you're really getting a guy who _can_ mark, but never does since he's not using that at-will... or can heal... once per encounter... at 16th... for hardly any extra.



Yep, like Str/Wis fighter/avengers trying to get by on armor of faith and no secondary stat, while defending with half of their powers not marking and no combat superiority.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
You can get that now with players that have a Fighter with STR 14 and don't know how to play their PCs. How would this be any different?
You can get that now with players that have a Fighter with STR 14 and don't know how to play their PCs. How would this be any different?



It'd be less common. Most of the new players I run into didn't use the Character Builder to make their characters, just the core PHB.
Not knowing that you need a 18 strength to be effective is entirely different from not knowing that a hybrid paladin/fighter is far more effective than a normal fighter.

The PHB recommends you start with an 18 strength. The PHB does not have a "WARNING: Please refer to PHB3 for how to make a more effective character".
We left "Level Playing Field" many moons ago... after every book/article that followed the PH. Turns out that unbalanced is a nice selling point and makes buckets of cash!

And yet, we can still have fun with old builds. Not optimal (compare Paladins then and now... ), but certainly enjoyable. I have a number of weak builds on purpose (Dwarven Tactical Warlord for the win!!!) and the game is still fun - sometimes more!

Again, we can't say "LFR is a little easy" on one hand and "I can't survive not being super-optimized" with the other.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

Y'know, up until this point, I had faith in our admins. Sure, I thought they were a little soft as far as how they handled errata, but i could see their reasoning.  But hybrids are as bad as gestalts were in 3.5 In a home game where everyone was a gestalt, it was fine back then. But normal characters and Gestalt couldnt mix. The non gestalt would always feel underpowered and would be right in feeling so.  Now we have modern day gestalts aka hybrids. Pick the best features and powers of 2 classes and make a character w/o any of the flaws/drawbacks of a normal one. Feychargers are only the tip of the iceberg. Soon, we'll have the Bleeder that does ongoing 93 with a -20 to the save so the monster dies from being hit once, or other shenanigans. Or even a simple fighter/paladin that will combat challenge you in melee or divine challenge you at range. Its already hard to ignore a fighter mark, this makes it impossible w/o taking a buncha damage. Which BTW, is better than any normal paladin or normal fighter. Why would you ever paragon multiclass like ferol loves to? Why be  a half-elf, when you can be even better as a hybrid? Its one thing to allow pre errata grasp of the grave or dice of auspicious fortune, because while they were/are overpowered, they didnt break any paradigms of the game. Classes had to multiclass in order to get versatility, as in everyone had to pay for it.  I sense a lot of avenger/swordmages in the coming months that are nigh invincible because you can stack armor of faith and warding.

I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.

 
a hybrid paladin/fighter is far more effective than a normal fighter..


Please explain how... I'm not seeing this.  (no combat challenge, harder access to the paladin striker stuff, no lay on hands without spending a feat,   Immediate action to do your damage vs. free, which also takes the fighter's immedate action to hit somthing.  Only one Paladin at-will, which limits your Power of X synergies, -1 TH without spending a feat (and thus no lay on hands), etc.  Your Sanction damage is ignoreable (can't be fixed w/ a feat)...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

But hybrids are as bad as gestalts were in 3.5 [...] Pick the best features and powers of 2 classes and make a character w/o any of the flaws/drawbacks of a normal one.


That's not an accurate description at all.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Really? Then describe it as far as you understand it. Telling me its not an accuarte description doesnt help. As far as I see it Hybridization just makes you better than a normal member of your class.

Ex. Fighter/Paladin

Hybrid Fighter can only mark with fighter powers correct?
Turn 1 DIVINE CHALLENGE as a minor to get around that so you can use a paladin power.
Bad guy in melee will get Combat challenge if he ingores your mark.

Bad guy at Range will get Divine Challenged if he ignores your mark.

Lose/lose for BBEG.

A normal fighter can combat challenge adjacent enemies but can't punish people at range or at even 2-3 squares away if your a reach fighter.

A normal paladin can inflict divine challenge damage on anyone regardless of range but the damage is far less than a MBA from a fighter and the timing issue(interpretted as a reaction by most DMs)


So how is a hybrid not better than a non hybrid?




Really? Then describe it as far as you understand it.


Sure.

At any point in time, you can be a crappy member of class X (who's class features are nerfed beyond recognition), or a crappy member of class Y (who's class features are nerfed beyond recognition), but never at the same time.  In addition, if you blinked wrong while selecting your classes, your AC sucks.

In exchange for this, you might be able to unlock the occassional synergy that could break the game until errata comes out.

3.5e Gestalt characters were FULL fledged members of class A and FULL fledged members of class B.  In 4e terms, they would have double the number of powers, and all the class features of both.  That's not the same as a Hybrid character at all.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Hybrids can be misleading. I think a lot of them show up in char ops discussion because it seems powerful... but the tradeoffs prevent them from really being stronger than other options. As you start looking at the true cost of taking feats to get back the lost powers you end up giving up the ground gained by non-hybrids that take power-enhancing feats. There are some wacky hybrid things out there, though.



I think the issue is currently that Defenders/Leaders by definition have pretty good base class abilities and Strikers/Controllers generally have pretty good powers and limited class abilities. There are also some issues with implements, armor and at-wills. You pick the class that gives you the base abilities and another one that gives you the powers.

As an example, an archer Ranger who picks up Shaman for healing and defensive control(at the cost of one feat for the Shaman at-will option)

Ex. Fighter/Paladin

[...]
A normal paladin can inflict divine challenge damage on anyone regardless of range but the damage is far less than a MBA from a fighter and the timing issue(interpretted as a reaction by most DMs)


So how is a hybrid not better than a non hybrid?


Compared to a fighter (Str/Wis)
  • You don't have +1 to hit from being a fighter.  That's huge.

  • You don't get that nice bonus to OA attacks.

  • You don't get to mark with basic attacks (thrown javelin), or racial attack powers, or half your class powers.

  • You don't get that sandtrap "OAs stop movement" ability

  • You only get one Fighter at-will power, which means you're missing a nice control power


Compared to a Paladin (Str/Wis)
  • Your Divine Challenge requires an immediate action

  • You don't get platemail proficiency

  • You don't get Lay on Hands

  • You don't get Channel Divinity.

  • You only get one Paladin at-will power, which means you give up Power of * synergies

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Again, we can't say "LFR is a little easy" on one hand and "I can't survive not being super-optimized" with the other.

I recommend trying to play a newer H1 mod with a "sub-optimal" character - you'd might be surprised.
Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear.

I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.

I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that Wink

So again, how about we wait and see if anything changed with hybrids, The bridge will still be there after the article shows up, and throwing your characters off it ceremoniously will still have all the impact it has now. 
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear.

I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.

I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that





WOTC didnt have an issue when LG kept Gestalt out of the campaign. And Im not saying that its WOTCs fault. Theyre out to make money, thats all they are concerned with. Im just saying that I trust our admins to do the right thing and just say that Hybrids are not LFR legal. They have done that with a few things before, like the eberron stuff(dragonmarks and what not), why not now?
Well, no one can say that it's a surprise that hybrid characters would eventually make it into LFR. Maybe it's a surprise that they'll already arrive in January instead of March, but that they would come was clear.

I really hope the admins change their minds and put this concept back where it belongs, in home games, and not LFR.

I think the WotC marketing department might have a word about that





WOTC didnt have an issue when LG kept Gestalt out of the campaign. And Im not saying that its WOTCs fault. Theyre out to make money, thats all they are concerned with. Im just saying that I trust our admins to do the right thing and just say that Hybrids are not LFR legal. They have done that with a few things before, like the eberron stuff(dragonmarks and what not), why not now?



LG was able to keep or kick a lot of things out of the campaign (monsters as player characters, psionics, abjurant champion, divine metamagic, etc) that the LFR campaign staff is not permitted to exclude (thus, to use the perpetual example, we now have warforged running all over the Forgotten Realms). I would love it if the LFR staff were able to exclude more items from the campaign, but that's not the way it has worked up until now. (Quite frankly, I'm surprised dragonmarks and Ebberon channel divinity feats aren't in LFR).

Hybrids don't just seem powerful, they are powerful. They show up on CharOp because they are broken. CharOp doesn't jump on stuff because it has 'good flavor'.


Hybrids, by virtue of breaking unspoken rules, have Potential to be broken.  There may be specific synergies that hybrids enable.

But the overwhelming majority of the time, they are unworkably bad, not unworkably good.  The current limitations are too strict to get anything good out of them.  (Except for Faychargers).  You'll see them used for Record builds, but those won't point out an AC 10 under par, or some similar vulnerability that makes the character unworkable.

At least with the current rules.  We'll see with the new ones.



The builds that work via hybrids work really well. The major issue is that CharOps tends to value being really good at one thing, not two. And given hybrid hasn't been officially published, a lot of people are leery of the rules, knowing they won't be able to play them in a game.

And there are a number of base-line builds that work really, really well. Some classes even should almost always be hybrids(aka Archer Rangers and Wizards with a strong secondary stat due to race) - 
Examples:
Swordmage/Wizard - high AC Wizard who functions as a decent defender for a group.

Archer Ranger/Anything with Wisdom as primary stat. Do all the damage of a Ranger while adopting another role at the cost of a feat. Ranger/Shaman who can throw a Spirit Companion into a scrum while blasting away as a Ranger is nearly as good as a Ranger at blasting, but that now adds almost free control.

Paladin/Anything with Strength or Charisma as primary stat that doesn't typically do immediate actions. One feat for Plate+Heavy Shield. A Str Paladin/Melee Cleric with a solid AC by default. Paladin/Sorcerer who can fight in melee.