Differences between 3.5 and 4?

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I have a couple of friends who are thinking of starting to play 4th ed, after taking some years off gaming.  Does anyone know of a link I can forward to them that describes some of the main differences between the two editions?  I can describe them myself (which I may do), but a link or two would be nice.

Any suggestions?

mc
Here's a link to the quick start rules:  www.wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx

This may have the information you are seeking.
<\ \>tuntman
Everything has changed. It's a completely new system. First rule of 4e is, it's not 3e. Go into it under the mindset that you're going to be playing a new game.
What I've gathered so far (and I just started playing 4e, and never played any previously):

- when monsters attack you, you don't roll, it's just whether or not their roll is higher than the particular skill (reflex, strength, fortitude, whatever) that they are attacking

- I hear a lot of "4e sucks," "it's like a video game," "it's not even like D&D," and blah, blah, blah. I've been looking through some 3.5 stuff, and I see 4e as much less complicated and easier to learn, but that's just a personal opinion.

Some people say that 4e doesn't leave enough to the imagination or that you can't get a good background story going. I have no idea what they're talking about, because my characters have very complex background stories and issues. When I revealed one's background to a long-time players' group last night, they were all really impressed with my little tale. And these guys have played for years, and previous editions.

I'm really glad I decided to go with 4e. And for those who prefer 3.5, I'm glad PathFinder is still publishing material for those guys. Smile
Eek I can see this going downhill fast. My advice as a 3.X player.

Try 4th ed and keep an open mind. Ignorance is bliss and try and avoid any pro and con 4th ed debates until you can make up your own mind. 3.5 is stil a reasonably good system but generally requires a few houserules to tone down the power level of the spellcasters. You might not like 4th ed or you may think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Some concepts work better under each edition than the other.

 For the most part it will come down to your gaming group. Realistically play whatever one you have a good DM for but if you are a new player I would probably go with 4th as it will be supported by WoTC and is cheaper to get into.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

There is at least three changes, but they are so transparent that you can pretty much jump in from playing rollmaster to playing D&D 4e.

... ... ... ...

no, not really.   

Heh, the easier answer would be what has not changed.  Its a d20 system... and you ... are a hero...  I think thats about it. 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.


That's still mostly a change from 3.5 where you bought point buy packages with your levels.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
please take the time to correct the out of date things on that list, it wont take long


I have my old and rather sloppy list around. Let me see.....

Found it!

I'll just post it wholesale.

------------------


List of Changes in no Particular Order





In no particular order:

  • Player Characters are all based on the same advancement table
  • All classes get powers (think spells)
  • The powers are categorized into At-Will/Encounter/Daily and Utility powers
  • At-Will powers are weak mostly, but can be used ad inifinitum
  • Encounter Powers are usable once per encounter each and have some better damage and utility value
  • Daily Powers are strong but osable only once per day
  • Utility powers are things like Invisibility and for Fighters things like Boundless Endurance, which gives you short regeneration
  • SKills are more compact. Instead of Disable Device/Sleight of Hand you have Thievery, instead of Hide/MOve Silently, you have Stealth
  • Feats are less powerful but you get 18 over the course of 30 levels
  • On level 11 you get to choose a Paragon Path; Think Prestige Class, but instead of replacing your class abilities, they just give you some added power
  • At 21st level you get to choose an Epic Destiny, which is essentially like a Paragon Path - just more powerful
  • Combat runs smoother and faster once you have acclimated to the new system
  • Monsters and NPC no longer work via the same system as PCs
  • Monsters and NPCs each have powers on their own which vary from monster to monster and monster subtype to subtype (Goblin Hexer has different powers than a Goblin Sharpshooter)
  • Races now have bonuses only, no +2/-2, instead +2/+2 (or with Humans +2 to any one you choose)
  • Gnome has been put into the MM as playable race with about 15 others, whilst Dragonborn and Tieflings are new core races. Half-Orc is not yet available (but Orc is as a good base for playing)
  • The system is more tactical in combats and more movement is all around. No more charge and then attack. You have mostly dynamic combats with lots of movement
  • Miniatures are now virtuall required. You can play without Minis (or tokens like screaps of paper) but its more rewarding with minis
  • Wizards no longer absolutely dominate whilst Fighters no longer suck (YMMV; ergo: My opinion, although many share it. All classes have been balanced to each other, for good or ill.)
  • Character Roles tell you what the class you choose is good at and work as a good indicator:
  • Strikers deal lots of damage to single targets mostly
  • Defenders ... defend. They have staying power and can dish out some damage, too, but mostly are "sticky", ergo make enemy movements harder
  • Leaders are the healers / buffers. They can be "in the fray" or behind the lines and do healing/buffing/commanding
  • Controller(s) is the role that does battle-field control, ergo has area damage and can make movement harder on a larger scale. They excel at dealing moderate damage to lots of creatures
  • No more background skills in the "active" skill list. If you want to be a baker, check with your DM and write it on your char. No more need to spill valuable skill points into the background. (again, for good or ill, depending on your stance)
  • Magic Items now all have powers themselves you can use once per day. Some armor gives you added healing, others deal damage to enemies when they crit you. Oh, they still give a +1 bonus, too. This varies a lot and all magic items rely on the same system here.
  • Healing Surges. Every character has a bunch of them and can use them out of encounter as he wishes and in combat only with the "SEcond Wind", which everyone can use once per fight. Healing Surges give you back 1/4 of your hit points and can be enabled by Leaders or by powers you have yourself (Fighter gets a lot of those for staying power)
  • Higher Hit Points. Your Level 1 Wizard won't die after falling 20 ft. He now has around 20 hp.
  • Fixed HP per level
  • Rituals. Ritual Magic contains most of the out-of combat non-utility spells wizards and clerics had. Examples include: Tensers Floating Disk, Ressurect Dead, Cure Disease, Scyring, etc. Important: Every character can access Rituals via a Ritual Caster feat, which itself has a requirement (I think you must be trained in either Arcana or Religion).
  • A lot of DM's, me included, have stated that prep time is reduced a lot.
  • Skill challenges: They are a framework fore OUt-Of-Combat Skill Encounters (like "Convince the Duke"). They require some adjucation and the newest errata, thought.
  • The Skill system works no longer with point-buy but instead if you are trained in a skill, you get a flat +5 bonus. Via the feat Skill Specialization you can get another +3.
  • 1/2 Level Mechanic: Attacks, Defenses and Skills all get a bonus equal to half your level.
  • Defenses: YOu have 4 Defenses: Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflex, Will - YOu no longer roll Reflex if you are hit by a fireball; instead the fireball caster rolls an attack against your Reflex Defense. If he hits you, you take damage.
  • Saving Throws do now consist of only 1d20, nothing added. 10+ you save against an (ongoing) effect, 9 or less: suffer from it another round. Saving Throws now work mostly as duration indicator.Example: A power causes ongoing fire-damage; after you ended your turn you roll a save to see if the ongoing damage stays or vanishes.
  • Focus on How To Play: The PHB contains basics from page 4 to 11, explaining how to play, what a RPG is and the like. It's thought for newer players.
  • Monster DEsign is easy as pie and you can make interesting creatures from scratch in minutes.



Thats all that I could think of right away.



Not sure if THIS helps but I'm very fond of the first post in this thread.

-Caliber
Every character is useful at all levels.
Every character is useful at all levels.



Umm....  I know somebody who consistantly builds charactors with no use at all in fact I swear to god a DM once killed his charactor just to make a mod easier for the rest of our party to finish and the victim of such DM wrath WAS OUR PARTY'S CLERIC.         

4e is a whole different animal in comparison to 3.5e.

Learning curve isn't as steep as you would think. I would recommend the character builder as they will calculate the numbers for you for the most part. One or two people with a sub can pretty much share their updates with their friends to sustain a gaming group. Here's my experience:

Feats: Different

> three tiers/levels of feats. You have to hit a certain level before you have access to the higher tiers. "retraining" mechanic will allow you to re-customize your character as you level up. Otherwise the mechanic is the same.

Abilities: Different

> Str or Con = (Fort save); Fighter (str = to-hit)
> Dex or Int = (Reflex save); Rogue (dex = to-hit); Wizard (int = to-hit)
> Wis or Cha = (Will save); Cleric (wis = to-hit); Bard (cha = to-hit)

Combat: Different

(MAD: Multiple Ability Defenses): 1) AC; 2) Fort; 3) Ref; 4) Will

1) Unlimited (At-will, basic attacks)
2) Per/Encounter (Encounter, Utility, Racial)
3) Daily (Daily, Stances)

> Crit! (roll 20) automatically maximize your damage dice without having to confirm a critical hit
> Fail (roll 1) if your to-hit is high enough you can still hit.

Magic Items: Different

1) Magic item use limit: Some magic items have static effects, most will have (daily) abilities. You can grab multiple magic items but if you use one of them, you cannot use the daily abilities of the others.
2) (heroic) x1 (paragon) x2 (epic) x3; +1 extra magic item use after 2 encounters.

Characters: Different

The game less flexible when it comes to making a truly "selfish" character that doesn't fit with the "role" that a class was intended to play.

Combat works a lot better and character creation/monster creation is a lot faster but the roleplaying aspect of the game is largely left to the group, although there are enough roleplaying elements in 4e that calling it a roleplaying game isn't actually a lie.

Its a fun edition, very different and worth a try.
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Every character is useful at all levels.


This isn't a difference between editions. Also, stop trying to start flame wars.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
...you may think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. ...


Hey the ONLY thing that touches sliced bread is sliced cheeze. Watch yerself....;)
This isn't a difference between editions. Also, stop trying to start flame wars.


This is very much a difference, and one that many people are not used to when they first play 4e, which makes it a very valid comment.

In previous editions, wizards start out as nearly useless, catch up with the rest of the party by mid-level, and completely dominate the game at high levels. Fighters do the exact opposite.

In 4e, the wizard, and all other classes for that matter, start off on the same level, and all advance at pretty much the same rate. No one class or group of classes steals the spotlight at any given level.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Umm....  I know somebody who consistantly builds charactors with no use at all in fact I swear to god a DM once killed his charactor just to make a mod easier for the rest of our party to finish and the victim of such DM wrath WAS OUR PARTY'S CLERIC.         


Well it is always possible to build a terrible character, but you have to pretty much not just ignore but directly contradict all the character building advice given in the PHB. Perhaps William should have said is "All classes are equally useful at all levels."
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Every character is useful at all levels.


This isn't a difference between editions. Also, stop trying to start flame wars.


While Will exaggerates, he IS true to a degree.
This is very much a difference, and one that many people are not used to when they first play 4e, which makes it a very valid comment.

In previous editions, wizards start out as nearly useless, catch up with the rest of the party by mid-level, and completely dominate the game at high levels. Fighters do the exact opposite.


Fighters don't do the opposite. A fighter will never be useless.

In 4e, the wizard, and all other classes for that matter, start off on the same level, and all advance at pretty much the same rate. No one class or group of classes steals the spotlight at any given level.


No one gets the chance to steal the spotlight.

At any rate, the idea that certain classes or groups of classes in 3e (or any previous edition) become useless is utter nonsense.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
Every character is useful at all levels.


This isn't a difference between editions. Also, stop trying to start flame wars.


While Will exaggerates, he IS true to a degree.


He's not. Fighters are useful in 3e no matter what level. Casters are useful in 3e no matter what the level.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
At any rate, the idea that certain classes or groups of classes in 3e (or any previous edition) become useless is utter nonsense.



I agree, the fighter did not become useless persay. He became useless when you compare him to Full Casters, with maybe some empowering Prestige Class put on top.

There is a reason this exists.


Even with that, the fighter still isn't useless. The idea that just because the Wizard becomes more powerful than you, you suddenly become utterly useless is just nonsense.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
Even with that, the fighter still isn't useless. The idea that just because the Wizard becomes more powerful than you, you suddenly become utterly useless is just nonsense.


This isn't really even worth arguing anymore as it will probably derail the thread. To sum it up, if you felt that fighters were just fine in 3e, you probably won't see any trouble with them in 4e (unless you played them because you like simplicity, in which case play a 4e ranger instead). If, on the other hand, you were one of the many who felt fighters were severely underpowered, you will be pleasantly surprised to see that even at epic levels they are on the same power level as the wizard and other spellcasters.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Speaking as someone who is both pro-4e and still likes 3e, I have found Will to be someone worth ignoring. Seriously, pay him no mind. He's the type of person who is more useful to you as an enemy than an ally.

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Speaking as someone who is both pro-4e and still likes 3e, I have found Will to be someone worth ignoring. Seriously, pay him no mind. He's the type of person who is more useful to you as an enemy than an ally.


Rofl. Qft.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Even with that, the fighter still isn't useless. The idea that just because the Wizard becomes more powerful than you, you suddenly become utterly useless is just nonsense.



Thats.... exactly what I said. Fighters are not useless persay, just totally and utterly outclassed in the endgame. The fighter can still whack a town of commoners to death, so yeah, he's surely not useless. Just not all that useful to a high-level adventuring group when most of his schtick can be performed by summons of various kinds and spells that circumvent the fighter's best ability: dealing HP damage.

So yeah. Agreed, the fighter is not useless in totality.


Personally I find it easier to think of it in terms of cost effectiveness.
At high level the fighter is no where near as cost effective as a spell caster, except for when the DM decides to arbitrarily nerf the spell caster for a encounter, session, etc.
The fighter is never useless (baring corner cases like a melee only fighter with the opponents flying higher then he can throw anything on hand), but is so outclassed by the spell caster they are effectively pointless to play at that point.

The fighter is never useless (baring corner cases like a melee only fighter with the opponents flying higher then he can throw anything on hand), but is so outclassed by the spell caster they are effectively pointless to play at that point.



I'd even cut the fighter some more slack and say he is not pointless to play either. With the right Powergaming and CharOp Build that does not smell really really bad cheese he'll be playable and even worthwhile from time to time... but yes, I think the cost effectiveness is a good point.


Indeed, fighters are outclassed by wizards at higher levels, no question at all (and at the "sweet spot" levels, casters get to do more cool things than melee characters), but my point is simply: Just because a character is more powerful than your character does not make your character useless, even withouyt powergaming builds.

In fact, on powergaming builds, there's a melee character that has a 30ft radius of death around him, and can't be charmed or dominated, and can't be dropped for having 0 or less HP. It's a completely insane build that mauls everything around it. Casters need not apply.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
Biggest difference.

System Integrity.

In 3e, we talked about how utterly useless a Fighter was, and that Casters could literally Nuke Cities by 6th level if built right. *Yeah Cities.*

Things like Pun Pun existed. And all manner of broken crap most of the super broken power involving Casters. 

Even if you weren't trying as a Caster you still regularly and routinely broke the game wide open.

On the opposite end there were, PHB Fighters, Half Orcs, Elves, and Humans. Who were pitifully underpowered pieces of **** with some of the worst mechanics I have still seen in an RPG. *one that was successful anyway.. let alone 3e success level*

To say 3e was a fantastic Train Wreck when it comes to Balance, and being easy to abuse is such an obvious easy statement as to compare to Water is Wet. 3e is Synonymous with Broken beyond Repair.

*To repair 3e, I firmly believe you are infact creating your own system.*

None of this of course speaks of the volumes of rules, and the false semi assumption that Rules must = game world's physics engine. Nor does it address the One True Waying that went on inherently in the rules.

What do we talk about in 4e?  DPR being just a tick off kilter, on the Halfling due to being unfairly gimped

Wizards that can stun -one- monster really bad per encounter, once they use a Daily power, which they really only get 3 of.

The slight Dpr differences between Sly Flourish, versus other class At wills etc.

Much tighter balance,  easier to understand rules and better races overall.
http://guild.medialoungeca.com/index.php?action=forum The Guild I'm apart of. We're in WOW, STO, Rift and soon Star Wars feel free to register and hang out. http://sparkster11.deviantart.com/ my deviantart Wheelman of the House of Trolls, "I love it when you watch" Carrier of Section 2, 3 and 6 cargo. Resident Driver Stud God of Transportation and Lust.
In 3e, we talked about how utterly useless a Fighter was


Fighters aren't useless in 3e.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
He's right you know. Wizards who didn't want to waste a spell slot on Tensor's Floating Disk needed someone to haul the loot.
He's right you know. Wizards who didn't want to waste a spell slot on Tensor's Floating Disk needed someone to haul the loot.


Bait aside, you seem to have missed the point.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
In 3e, we talked about how utterly useless a Fighter was


Fighters aren't useless in 3e.



You are arguing semantics at this point.  Cpt Micha is using the term "useless" instead of saying "vastly underpowered compared to a dedicated caster to the point where there is nothing he can do that a caster can't do better".  It's kind of like complaining when someone says a penny is useless when you compare it to a dollar.  Sure, 100 pennies is just as valuable as a dollar, just as 100 fighters are just as strong as a wizard.  So obviously that penny isn't useless... just vastly less valuable than a dollar.
Bait aside, you seem to have missed the point.



I didn't miss the point I just don't care. These discussions are boring so I like to add a little comedy. Take it for what it is. Everybody is always so deadly serious when discussing their games around here.
Everything has changed. It's a completely new system. First rule of 4e is, it's not 3e. Go into it under the mindset that you're going to be playing a new game.


^ this

my biggest mistake when starting 4e was that I know the rules to 3.x (such as standing up from prone does not provoke attacks of opportunity in 4e but does in 3.x, or trying to roll d20 +fort vs death save (like stabalizing in 3.x: its just a d20 no adds and you have roll greater than 10))

just pretend you are learning a different game, it will be much easier that way.
my biggest mistake when starting 4e was that I know the rules to 3.x (such as standing up from prone does not provoke attacks of opportunity in 4e but does in 3.x, or trying to roll d20 +fort vs death save (like stabalizing in 3.x: its just a d20 no adds and you have roll greater than 10))

just pretend you are learning a different game, it will be much easier that way.


I agree.  There are many subtle things in 4E that has change like the stand up from prone.  You will find there are other subtle changes as well.  It is difficult to list them all.  Basically, if you did not see a rule in the 4E books, don't assume it exists like it was in 3.5.
<\ \>tuntman

I agree.  There are many subtle things in 4E that has change like the stand up from prone.  You will find there are other subtle changes as well.  It is difficult to list them all.  Basically, if you did not see a rule in the 4E books, don't assume it exists like it was in 3.5.



It's still worth trying to compile the list of things that often get assumed by experienced 3rd edders, because a lot of the rules have stayed the same:

  • Standing from prone does not provoke Opportunity Attacks

  • You may make as many Opportunity attacks as are provoker, but only one on each opponent's turn

  • Starting hit points are based off your Con score, not Con Modifier

  • You may only use a set number of magic item daily powers per milestone (~2 encounters, defined by DM), regardless of how many items you have

  • Saving throws are not affected by your Non- armour defenses (3rd Ed saving throws) or by level: They're more of a duration measure than anything else.


Sure I've seen more
In 3e, we talked about how utterly useless a Fighter was


Fighters aren't useless in 3e.



You are arguing semantics at this point.  Cpt Micha is using the term "useless" instead of saying "vastly underpowered compared to a dedicated caster to the point where there is nothing he can do that a caster can't do better".  It's kind of like complaining when someone says a penny is useless when you compare it to a dollar.  Sure, 100 pennies is just as valuable as a dollar, just as 100 fighters are just as strong as a wizard.  So obviously that penny isn't useless... just vastly less valuable than a dollar.


If he meant "less powerful", then that's exactly what he should have said. If he says "useless", then that's what I'm going to read, and that's what I'm going to comment on. Maybe I am arguing semantics at this point, but "useless" is not the correct term to use here. The term that everyone is looking for is, "less powerful".

And a wizard isn't "vastly" more powerful than the fighter.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
Okay, name me a perfect defense that takes Specific Magical Spell effects to dispell that a fighter can do that a Wizard can't.

Oh that's right a Fighter couldn't do anything like that.

How about a nigh unstoppable attack that will pretty much end the fight for at least one monster in a given encounter.

Right, he really can't do that either.

No, he was useless in comparison. Utterly. Just because your Caster friends, or you as a Caster didn't use even half the class's potential doesn't mean it wasn't there, and superceding the best of what other classes could muster.

You can say "but the fighter can do X dpr when I use X trick build from 50 different books!" and I can just look at you smile a little, pat you on the head and say "If you are doing damage to end the fight. You are doing it wrong" and then proceed to end the fight with an SOD, or otherwise cripple the enemy in such a fashion that they are utterly useless with no realistic prayer of making that saving throw.

Just using the phb, and normal magic items for my level. And be able to still do all the utilitarian spells, all of the offensive spells I want and have plenty to spare at the end of the day.

Then of course you could get your Solar ally in on the action later on too, which out right replaces the fighter and one ups him with Spells of his own.

Just like a penny is useless compared to a dollar. Sure you have 101 pennies when they are together, but frankly when one entity is worth 100 pennies to start with I'd rather have another dollar.
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What I meant was you dont have to power game to have an effective non caster.  Rogues are not just hiding in the back in an undead or golem encounter.  In most situations everyone in the party will be capable of doing something to help out.  I like this aspect of the game.  It really emphasizes team work a lot more. 
Okay, name me a perfect defense that takes Specific Magical Spell effects to dispell that a fighter can do that a Wizard can't.

Oh that's right a Fighter couldn't do anything like that.

How about a nigh unstoppable attack that will pretty much end the fight for at least one monster in a given encounter.

Right, he really can't do that either.

No, he was useless in comparison. Utterly. Just because your Caster friends, or you as a Caster didn't use even half the class's potential doesn't mean it wasn't there, and superceding the best of what other classes could muster.

You can say "but the fighter can do X dpr when I use X trick build from 50 different books!" and I can just look at you smile a little, pat you on the head and say "If you are doing damage to end the fight. You are doing it wrong" and then proceed to end the fight with an SOD, or otherwise cripple the enemy in such a fashion that they are utterly useless with no realistic prayer of making that saving throw.

Just using the phb, and normal magic items for my level. And be able to still do all the utilitarian spells, all of the offensive spells I want and have plenty to spare at the end of the day.

Then of course you could get your Solar ally in on the action later on too, which out right replaces the fighter and one ups him with Spells of his own.

Just like a penny is useless compared to a dollar. Sure you have 101 pennies when they are together, but frankly when one entity is worth 100 pennies to start with I'd rather have another dollar.



And if every combat or encounter was a fighter vs wizard encounter or required the wizard aid you may have a valid point. A smart 3.5 wizard would often stand back and just cast a haste spell and let the fighter types go to it. A high level fighter was still capable of putting the hurt on equivilent CR opponents. Less power yes, completely useless no.

 Anyway back to the OP. I've been playing D&D since 1969, and my opinion on the internet is always right regardeless of any fact, reasoned arguemets, or proof against it. 4th ed sucks as the game designers didn't dare ask my opinion on how  to design it an I wanted to include Spelljammer giant space hampster  powered ships in it. Every time you play 4th ed God kills a kitten, and the release of 4th ed killled Gary Gygax he who must be obeyed as TSR stole D&D off him and WoTC bought stolen goods. Back in  my day we didn't have all these classes to chose from nor minis. We used an old eraser and some chewing gum and had to play in a darkened cellar dodging German bombs.

 4th ed is just a WoW rip off anyway and WoTC can't even design a simple thing such as a virtual tabletop correctly. Back in my day we had to hide under the table top to dodge Japanese bombs at Pearl Harbour. You young uns don't know how lucky you are. Was in 1952, or 63 my half orc had to save vs death as the Tet offensive crashed through our sector of the front. Anyway I digress.  Rather than splash out on 4th ed you can get the same effect using an old PS2, chewing gum, an eraser, an old ME 109 engine, and some tiddlywinks. This one time at band camp my -0.5 Ed Dwarven Sorcerer/Wizard was facing a Roman legion on oneside, with a Zulu Impis on the other. He only had 4 hit points remaining but had defeated Napoleon.......................
 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Okay, name me a perfect defense that takes Specific Magical Spell effects to dispell that a fighter can do that a Wizard can't.

Oh that's right a Fighter couldn't do anything like that.


Name me one perfect defense a wizard can do that can't be dispelled.

How about a nigh unstoppable attack that will pretty much end the fight for at least one monster in a given encounter.

Right, he really can't do that either.


Neither can a wizard. A wizard can cast a Save of Die, or Save or Suck spell at a single target all he wants. If the target makes his save, he's not out of the fight.

Over and above that, what are you going to cast that ends a multiple monster encounter? Fireball? Lightning Bolt? With 1d6/level, you're not likely to kill a Rogue with a Con bonus. Hell, statistically, more than half the time, a Sorcerer with a Con score of 14 will survive your spell roughly half of the time, and that's assuming equal level (ie, a level X wizard against a level X opponent). And once you get over the damage caps (let's say a level 15 wizard and a level 15 Rogue), that Fireball may as well be a dead spell, because it's going to hit for 35 damage on average, and that Rogue? It has about 45 HP before any other bonuses are added in.

Your quote that it ends the fight for "one monster" is cute, but doesn'#t actually move away from the real issue. You constant assertion that there is at least one spell a caster can cast and completely end the fight on the first turn is utter nonsense.

No, he was useless in comparison.


Apparently not.

Utterly. Just because your Caster friends, or you as a Caster didn't use even half the class's potential doesn't mean it wasn't there, and superceding the best of what other classes could muster.


You make far too many assumptions. For one, you're assuming you know how I play the game. And you're wrong in your assumption. I didn't "hold back" so that my melee playing friends had a chance to perform well. I didn't have to. But I'll get to that with your next point.

You can say "but the fighter can do X dpr when I use X trick build from 50 different books!" and I can just look at you smile a little, pat you on the head and say "If you are doing damage to end the fight. You are doing it wrong" and then proceed to end the fight with an SOD, or otherwise cripple the enemy in such a fashion that they are utterly useless with no realistic prayer of making that saving throw.


Ok, a few things here.

1. A "trick fighter build", as you so elegantly put it, can cripple an enemy without provoking a save at all. In fact, I can build a melee character that can kill almost everything in a 30ft radius around it, with no save, by dealing damage.

Your claim that damage is "doing it wrong" is laughable. Certainly, SoDs are powerful, but they require that your opponent fail a save (hence why they're called "Save or Die" spells, and not just "Die" spells). When you reduce an opponent to 0 HP, they simply die, no save. And I can reduce everything but the largest of HP totals to 0 in one turn with the right build.

2. It's easy to prove a point when you limit what your opponent can do. Saying that I have to stick to 1 class, or one book is like me saying you have to constantly stick to a handful of spells, or that you can only cast spells under certain condictions. It's completely absurd.

Just using the phb, and normal magic items for my level. And be able to still do all the utilitarian spells, all of the offensive spells I want and have plenty to spare at the end of the day.


Good for you, but that doesn't mean that the fighter is useless.

And as an aside, you're talking like a munchkin. Why does it matter that fighters are weaker than casters (they are, just not as much as you would like to make out)?

Why does it matter that fighters can't cast spells like fireball or SoDs? Why is it important at all?

If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
What I meant was you dont have to power game to have an effective non caster.  Rogues are not just hiding in the back in an undead or golem encounter.  In most situations everyone in the party will be capable of doing something to help out.  I like this aspect of the game.  It really emphasizes team work a lot more. 


You don#t have to powergame to make an effective melee character either.

And the bolded part isn't edition specific.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.