On small creatures, and their silly handicaps.

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So, small creatures, as we all know, can't use versatile weapons as versatile weapons. They can only use them as slightly less effective two handed weapons, and those they can't use at all. Although I hear there's a fix for that now.

What I'm wondering is: Why?
I know that people think the idea of a halfling with a greatsword is silly, but is it, really?
Halflings range from 3'10" to 4'2", on average. Greatswords tend to range, realistically, around the 5 to 6 1/2 pound range. claymores averaged about 5.5. Anything from 5 footish to about 6 feet is about where greatswords sit.

Now, I've spent a lot of time in various groups that work with archaic melee weapons. In the sca, for instance, we used swords made of rattan that wieghed about the same as their traditional counterparts. The scariest person I every had the frightening priveledge of fighting against with a greatsword(his weighed just under 6.5 pounds and was about a head and a half taller than him) was about 4'3" . And 13.
Halflings adventurers are, generally speaking, fully grown. Probably with more years of training under their belts with their chosen weapon.

That's a greatsword. And we're supposed to believe that a fully grown halfling cant use a longsword one handed? Really?
Absolutely absurd.
And the idea of small sized weapons for them isn't much better, either. normal longswords could wiegh as little as 2 pounds, and rarely more than 4.5. There's no reason for a 4 foot tall adult to need a smaller version to wield one handed.

this whole concept is pure sacred cow, nothing more.

Gnomes almost make sense of this whole small creature handicap, but only almost. They are, after all, only a few inches shorter than halflings. 3'4" to 3". That's taller than my 7 year old nephew. This is not toddler hieght we're talking about. It's preteen-teen height, in both cases. on top of that we're talking about adults. adults who have theoretically been training with these weapons.
There is a difference in how a 4 foot tall person uses many weapons, compared to a 6 foot tall person. However, the same is true of 5 foot tall persons and 6 foot tall persons.

now, I could see, if we wanted to get more complicated about it than 4e likes to, barring a few weapons, but it still might make sense to give certain weapons str requirements. which for balance reasons, I'm not recomending.

So, why? Surely not balance. I can't see a single balance benefit here. In fact, it can be frustrating as hell to build a halfling or gnome for a class that benefits most from large weapons. What is currectly making up for the shortage, if you'll excuse a terrible pun.
I could forgive it, somewhat, when they got a bonus to ac against larger creatures. hell, they were even shorter then. But in 4e this just seems like senseless cow worship that benefits no one, and makes no sense to boot.

Thanks for reading.

/rant.
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I remove the small size weapon restrictions and limitations from my games.
They serve no purpose when it comes to balance, they directly contradict the advertised racial design principles of 4E that races should neither have penalties nor be pigeon-holes into specific classes or roles, and they don't make sense from a flavor perspective for quite a lot of reasons, yours being just one of them.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Eh, I play with the restrictions.  but I Do it RAW, Versatile is the Small two handed.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

There is a, difference, between what the sca does and what actually works.  My great uncle was a blacksmith and historian.  I spent many an hour helping and talking with him about weapons.

Do you realize the physical requirements it takes to wield an all steel weapon that is a foot or more taller than you?

An easy analogy for it is a 10lbs box that is a 1 foot cube. Easy to carry.  Now make it a 2 foot cube, than 3 foot cube, than 4 foot cube.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

An easy analogy for it is a 10lbs box that is a 1 foot cube. Easy to carry.  Now make it a 2 foot cube, than 3 foot cube, than 4 foot cube.

Do the cubes have hilts?

The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
Right now, Small characters are able to wield many weapons at absolutely no penalty the same way that a medium creatures wields it. Yet, nobody seems to complain about this.

Furthermore, even if you're of the opinion that small characters must use smaller weapons (and admittedly, I'm of that opinion), there's still no reason that small characters shouldn't be able to construct smaller versions of larger weapons, and there's also no reason to believe that such a smaller weapon must do smaller damage in the hands of a small character.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
They took away the benefits of being small (improved AC), but kept the restrictions...
I would NEVER consider playing a Halfling or Gnome, so I'd say they'd benefit from a change (IMO).

EDIT: as a melee class
I would rather like my Kobold Warlord to sword/shield it up.  And I don't mean short sword.
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
I would rather like my Kobold Warlord to sword/shield it up.  And I don't mean short sword.


Why not a short sword?
Does your kobold somehow play better with some bigbeatstick sword compared to the shortsword?  I take it that rolling a d8 or d10 somehow makes the character 'right as rain'.
An easy analogy for it is a 10lbs box that is a 1 foot cube. Easy to carry.  Now make it a 2 foot cube, than 3 foot cube, than 4 foot cube.

Do the cubes have hilts?


And your point is?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Why not a short sword?

I would suppose for the exact same reason that the human version of such a character would feel more appropriate with a longsword or bastard sword than with a shortsword.

Does your kobold somehow play better with some bigbeatstick sword compared to the shortsword?

Again, if the human version of that character would be equipped with a longsword or bastard sword, then yes, definitely.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Right now, Small characters are able to wield many weapons at absolutely no penalty the same way that a medium creatures wields it. Yet, nobody seems to complain about this.

Furthermore, even if you're of the opinion that small characters must use smaller weapons (and admittedly, I'm of that opinion), there's still no reason that small characters shouldn't be able to construct smaller versions of larger weapons, and there's also no reason to believe that such a smaller weapon must do smaller damage in the hands of a small character.


So size has nothing to do with damage?
Care to explain:
d4 Dagger
d6 Shortsword
d8 Longsword
d10 Bastardsword
2d6 Greatsword

They took away the benefits of being small (improved AC), but kept the restrictions...
I would NEVER consider playing a Halfling or Gnome, so I'd say they'd benefit from a change (IMO).


So it's all about the expected dpr then?  A Halfling or Gnome who isn't about weapons can't be played for what reason?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Dont forget medium mounts.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Why not a short sword?

I would suppose for the exact same reason that the human version of such a character would feel more appropriate with a longsword or bastard sword than with a shortsword.


Even though when looked at seperately, they look correctly sized?

Does your kobold somehow play better with some bigbeatstick sword compared to the shortsword?

Again, if the human version of that character would be equipped with a longsword or bastard sword, then yes, definitely.


Even though when looked at seperately, they look correctly sized?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

I made em taller, and not Small anymore.

Small is a gaming abomination in my eyes. Meant to screw you out of wanting to play the race in question. And given how frankly stupid the heights were (especially in 3e), they'd -never- measure up as adventurer grade. *hah! get it! measure up.. I slay me*

Small creates rules issues where there really shouldn't be one. *You want to tell me that there are no Halfling Barbarians out there.... seriously...... to say nothing of the frankly arbitrary gimpage*
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So size has nothing to do with damage?

I never suggested any such thing. I suggested that a small character wielding a small weapon should deal the same damage as a medium character wielding a medium version of that weapon. A medium character wielding the small version of the weapon would do less damage, yes.

However, recall back in 3.5 when small characters got a +1 bonus to hit due to precision as to how it relates to perspective differences. Now, translate that to a damage bonus instead of an attack bonus and you have a damage penalty for a smaller weapon followed by a damage bonus for perspective equals no net change.

So it's all about the expected dpr then?

That's part of it, yes, but that's also a role-play problem when the whole point of a small character often is that its size doesn't matter and that its performance can match that of its larger friends.

A Halfling or Gnome who isn't about weapons can't be played for what reason?

The current problem is caused exactly by the fact that only weapons are penalized. Punishing some options while not punishing others goes not only against the idea that races in 4E weren't supposed to be getting penalties but also against the idea that races in 4E weren't supposed to be getting pigeon-holed into any specific classes or roles.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I would rather like my Kobold Warlord to sword/shield it up.  And I don't mean short sword.


Why not a short sword?
Does your kobold somehow play better with some bigbeatstick sword compared to the shortsword?  I take it that rolling a d8 or d10 somehow makes the character 'right as rain'.

Because a short sword is a die size smaller in damage?  Yeah, he'll play better doing more damage.  He does an average 1 less damage per W than an equivalent medium warlord.  It's not like he has any benefit to make up for that.  Except he can apparently take Halfling feats if the character builder is any indication.
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
They took away the benefits of being small (improved AC), but kept the restrictions...
I would NEVER consider playing a Halfling or Gnome, so I'd say they'd benefit from a change (IMO).


So it's all about the expected dpr then?  A Halfling or Gnome who isn't about weapons can't be played for what reason?



Good point.  I edited my original post to clarify for melee classes.
I never suggested any such thing. I suggested that a small character wielding a small weapon should deal the same damage as a medium character wielding a medium version of that weapon. A medium character wielding the small version of the weapon would do less damage, yes.



So you are saying that a Small longsword should deal the same damage even if it truly just a short sword in all respects of size and weight?

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

I am in argeement with they making being small a penailty but for no reason.  They don't get a bonus from being small.  Is there a feat or list of feats you can take for being small
I am in argeement with they making being small a penailty but for no reason.  They don't get a bonus from being small.  Is there a feat or list of feats you can take for being small



Medium mounts and several feats that do improve defenses and attacks for small melee characters already exist.


Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

So you are saying that a Small longsword should deal the same damage even if it truly just a short sword in all respects of size and weight?

I disagree with how you use the word "truly", but pretending that was instead "from the perspective of a medium creature", then yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, and it makes perfect sense (I by "perfect", I mean "more then enough").

Medium mounts and several feats that do improve defenses and attacks for small melee characters already exist.

And aren't enough.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
So you are saying that a Small longsword should deal the same damage even if it truly just a short sword in all respects of size and weight?

I disagree with how you use the word "truly", but pretending that was instead "from the perspective of a medium creature", then yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, and it makes perfect sense (I by "perfect", I mean "more then enough").



So lets take it once more step.  Would you suggest a tiny creatures longsword to to the exact same amount of damage even though it might be the size of a medium dagger?

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

 And aren't enough.


would 2 more be enough?  how about 3?  or 4? 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

So lets take it once more step.  Would you suggest a tiny creatures longsword to to the exact same amount of damage even though it might be the size of a medium dagger?

Tiny creatures are not and will never be playable, so that is not and never will be a problem.

would 2 more be enough?  how about 3?  or 4? 

There will never be enough.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
So lets take it once more step.  Would you suggest a tiny creatures longsword to to the exact same amount of damage even though it might be the size of a medium dagger?

Tiny creatures are not and will never be playable, so that is not and never will be a problem.

would 2 more be enough?  how about 3?  or 4? 

There will never be enough.

What about swarms?  I want to play a swarm.

The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
So lets take it once more step.  Would you suggest a tiny creatures longsword to to the exact same amount of damage even though it might be the size of a medium dagger?

Tiny creatures are not and will never be playable, so that is not and never will be a problem.



Ah, so your allowed to make 4e design choices and tell the rest of us that our idea of good and enough are not correct?

How come a Large Longsword does more damage and a small one does not? 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

What about swarms?  I want to play a swarm.

Play a Druid?
Also, I'm pretty sure swarms are considered to be the size of the swarm and not the size of the creatures making it up... But I may be mistaken...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Ah, so your allowed to make 4e design choices...

No, but I can tell you what design choices have already been made by the developers.

...and tell the rest of us that our idea of good and enough are not correct?

I am indeed free to disagree with you and show you why my idea is better, yes.

How come a Large Longsword does more damage and a small one does not? 

Because large is just like tiny. There is not and will never be a large size playable race in 4E, so that's never going to come up.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Because large is just like tiny. There is not and will never be a large size playable race in 4E, so that's never going to come up.



Once again, true for now, but the never ever part?  dont count on it.

So again.  Why do large weapons scale up and small do not not scale down?

Large weapons are a factor though, even if it is just the gnoll for now.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

One would presume the cultures of small characters would be able to either:
A) Craft weapons in a different manner
B) Develop a fighting style to allow them an advantage with a smaller blade

The restrictions seem almost built to dissuade the Halfling Fighter or the Kobold Warden or whatever... Which shouldn't really happen.
One would presume the cultures of small characters would be able to either:
A) Craft weapons in a different manner
B) Develop a fighting style to allow them an advantage with a smaller blade

The restrictions seem almost built to dissuade the Halfling Fighter or the Kobold Warden or whatever... Which shouldn't really happen.


Why is a Halfling Fighter dissuaded for? 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Why is a Halfling Fighter dissuaded for? 



I tend to side with the position from earlier in the thread.  Sacred Cow
The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
Once again, true for now, but the never ever part?  dont count on it.

No. It is counted on. Play-testing and experimentation has been done repeatedly, and the resulting conclusions have consistently been that Tiny and Large size just don't work for a PC race. They're mechanically unbalanced and have various issues, with the only way of fixing those issues being "you count as being small/medium size for basically all purposes."

Large weapons are a factor though, even if it is just the gnoll for now.

The Gnoll is a medium creature.
And if you mean a race with Oversized, it's been repeatedly shown through playtest and then also said by the developers that the feature is both overpowered and completely inappropriate on a PC race. Only NPC races currently have Oversized.

Why is a Halfling Fighter dissuaded for?

The Fighter is a melee weapon class, and the Halfling has severe melee weapon limitations and restrictions.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Once again, true for now, but the never ever part?  dont count on it.

No. It is counted on. Play-testing and experimentation has been done repeatedly, and the resulting conclusions have consistently been that Tiny and Large size just don't work for a PC race. They're mechanically unbalanced and have various issues, with the only way of fixing those issues being "you count as being small/medium size for basically all purposes."

Large weapons are a factor though, even if it is just the gnoll for now.

The Gnoll is a medium creature.
And if you mean a race with Oversized, it's been repeatedly shown through playtest and then also said by the developers that the feature is both overpowered and completely inappropriate on a PC race.



Sigh, You still havent answered the question.

A large longsword is a d10.  and medium longsword is a d8... why is a small longsword to you a d8? 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Sigh, You still havent answered the question.

Because the question isn't relevant. It's just hyperbole.

A large longsword is a d10.  and medium longsword is a d8... why is a small longsword to you a d8? 

Because that's better balanced, fits in better with the advertised racial design philosophies, and makes enough sense (for reasons already explained) that it's worth doing for the previous two reasons.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Because that's better balanced, fits in better with the advertised racial design philosophies, and makes enough sense (for reasons already explained) that it's worth doing for the previous two reasons.



I like this line.  Its going to follow 4e around till the day it dies.  it is going to be used and overused for years to come to oppose any kind of design that may put someone at a disadvantage.

if someone is the worst at something then it flies in the face of the design principles?

 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

I remove the small size weapon restrictions and limitations from my games.
They serve no purpose when it comes to balance, they directly contradict the advertised racial design principles of 4E that races should neither have penalties nor be pigeon-holes into specific classes or roles, and they don't make sense from a flavor perspective for quite a lot of reasons, yours being just one of them.



Exactly. In my opinion, of course. Well, Concerto's actually, but well... you get what I mean eh!
...it is going to be used and overused for years to come to oppose any kind of design that may put someone at a disadvantage.

if someone is the worst at something then it flies in the face of the design principles?

No, that would be silly. The only way to maintain a balance where everyone is expected to be just as good at everything as everybody else is would be for the races to have no mechanical differences at all, and I don't think that anybody wants that. I know that I don't.

If, however, a race is specifically penalized in an unbalanced way, then yes, that is a problem.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
No, that would be silly. The only way to maintain a balance where everyone is expected to be just as good at everything as everybody else is would be for the races to have no mechanical differences at all, and I don't think that anybody wants that. I know that I don't.

If, however, a race is specifically penalized in an unbalanced way, then yes, that is a problem.



Exactly, it may be unbalancing now but eventually there will be perks for small people.  Medium mounts is one.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Exactly, it may be unbalancing now but eventually there will be perks for small people.  Medium mounts is one.

No, that's never going to be sufficient.
The whole reason why racial penalties were supposed to be thrown out this edition was because the developers recognized that trying to balance penalties with bonuses and vice versa don't work. All that happens is that people will select options that minimize the penalties and/or maximize the bonuses, and that leads to the problem of racial pigeon-holing that they wanted to avoid.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
No, that would be silly. The only way to maintain a balance where everyone is expected to be just as good at everything as everybody else is would be for the races to have no mechanical differences at all, and I don't think that anybody wants that. I know that I don't.

If, however, a race is specifically penalized in an unbalanced way, then yes, that is a problem.



Exactly, it may be unbalancing now but eventually there will be perks for small people.  Medium mounts is one.



You've mentioned these medium mounts a lot in this thread.

I must admit I am ignorant on this subject.

Care to enlighten me?  (plus I think it might add something to this discussion)