The Colossus of War

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Colossus

The Colossus of War


Note: This is my favorite build of all time, which got deleted during the forum update. I've had a couple requests to repost it, so here it is. I don't recommend actually playing this character verbatim, as it would likely cause your DM's head to explode, but you can take and adapt as many elements from it as you think your DM would find to be reasonable. (ShakaUVM - 1/4/10)

The build demonstrates the abusability of the Archivist base class from Heroes of Horror, which is an intelligence-based and spellbook-based divine caster that can cast ANY divine spell, including cleric spells, druid spells, spells that appear on any domain list, and initiate-only feats. Being able to persistent, say, a holy star is what sets the build well above other Gish builds (at least from what I saw in the competion). 20th level dwarf, 32 stat point build, standard equipment, no house rules, all 3e and 3.5 books allowed. The Colossus can take a Hecachonteries in a stand up, beat down fight. Heck, he can kill a heca without throwing a single attack at all.

The class can be tweaked in any number of different ways. Reckless Rage is a worthless feat that can be swapped out for any of a number of different feats. His spell list is flexible (can cast any divine spell up to 9th, and any arcane up to 5th) with 9th level spells and a caster level of 18th. Unlike most gishes, all his high level slots are free. He doesn't burn 9th level slots on quickened righteous mights. You can fill up his list wist as many persistent spells per day. It just costs you a lesser restoration to persistent any spell. Much better than DMM. His equipment is generic, and can be swapped out for individual needs.

Swap out spellblades for whatever spells are common in your campaign. By default he's immune to greater dispel and reaving dispel, the achilles' tendon of any gish.

He was originally written for a gish competition on the CO boards, which had certain restrictions, like no shapechanging magic. It's interesting to see how much power can be squeezed out of 3.5 D&D without resorting to the most overpowered spells in the system, like shapechange or polymorph any object.

Original post follows:

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I thought I'd roll up a gish just because the challenge of a self buffing fighter that can't use Shapechange (my staple spell) is interesting for me. This is with a minimum of research, I'm sure much better could be done. This is just a proof of concept of a guy that walks around colossal sized all day long. He runs around at 90% of his efficiency all day long. If he gets time to buff, he can squeeze a few more points of AC, + to hit, etc. out. He's almost impossible to dispel except through the cheese that is disjunction. If allowed, he'd have a miracle up to protect against it. Scott O'Neil is to credit for the discovery of the ultimate cheese of the Archivist, though the combination with Spelldancer and giant size was my invention.

Also, in my living campaign (www.livingplanar.com) we've banned the worst of this stuff, so it is always fun to demonstrate why. =)

Just looking at the other posts in the gish competition, he seems to come in with about double the hit points, and 20 to 40 points higher in attack sequence and AC than the other guys. He also doesn't need to buff in combat, and is more or less immune to being dispelled.

Notes:
Archivist is from Heroes of Horror. Essentially, they are wizards that cast divine spells. They use intelligence for spellcasting and cast cast any divine spell. Including spells that only appear on Initiate Feats, like the uberness of Holy Star.
Heavy weapons are from Forgotten Realms. Essentially they increase the size category damage of a weapon, but require their own special exotic weapon proficiency.
Spelldancer is from Forgotten Realms, and can apply metamagic feats to spells at no cost (at worst, you take 2 points of con damage and are fatigued, which he himself can cure with restorations)
Giant Size is from Oriental Adventures. It is a size-only increase, not shapechanging, so it is allowed under the rules. It's essentially a 7th level Enlarge Person.
Nimbleness armor is a +1 enhancement that increases the dex bonus on a armor by +2.
Flying weapons are from forgotten realms, and are a low powered dancing weapon. Essentially for a +1 bonus, the weapon can be released like a dancing weapon, but they only attack and deal damage as animated objects. Essentially, I just use it so the colossal weapons can carry themselves when I'm dressing, since they have no duration.

Player Name: Bill Kerney
Character Name: THE COLOSSUS OF WAR
Race: Deep Dwarf
Ability Scores:
Str: 66 [14 base + 6 divine power + 32 giant size + 5 tome + 6 rage + 5 level increases] (6)
Dex: 22 [14 base + 6 gloves/+10 divine agility - 2 giant size] (6)
Con: 42 [14 base + 2 dwarf + 6 amulet + 12 giant size + 2 tome + 6 rage] (6)
Int: 20 [16 base + 4 headband] (10)
Wis 22 [12 base + 10 owl's wisdom] (4)
Cha 6 [8 base - 2 dwarf] (0)

Tactical Statistics
Hit points = 482 HP base / 782 HP in one round vs spells / 1,562 HP vs Melee [139.5 base +320 (Con) = (459.5 HP + 22 temp + 300 (two contingent Heals)) x 2 Amulet of Retribution]. x4 hp from Improved Blink (50% miss chance) and Starmantle (reflex saves DC 15 to halve melee damage) = effectively 6,248 HP vs Melee!
Initiative: +11 (+6 Dex +5 Kauper's Skittish Nerves)
Move Speeds: 60' land [20 base + 10 barbarian + 30 haste], 120' fly [90 base + 30 haste] (good maneuverability, 24/7)
AC: 71 AC (all day long), 82 AC buffed, Max 106 AC

Up all day long:
10 base
+13 armor (+5 mithral full plate of nimbleness)
+2 armor (silverbeard, stacks with full plate)
+5 dex
+7 shield (animated +5 shield)
+1 insight (ioun stone)
+1 haste
+12 base natural armor
+5 barkskin
+10 Circumstance (Holy Star)
+4 Sacred Bonus (FR spell) (alternatively use shield of warding for +5 sacred to AC and reflex saves for only 1 min/level)
+8 Deflection (Extended Armor of Darkness)
+1 Dodge
-8 size
=71AC

Temporary:
+4 Cover (Bigby's)
+3 unnamed Archivist Bonus
+3 luck Recitation
+1 morale Divine Protection
-4 Rage
=78AC

Conditional:
+4 vs Giants
=82AC

One Shot:
+20 moment of prescience
=102AC

Max: 106 (not raging)

(If he took defending weapons and improved expertise (which he certainly has the int for), he could pump his AC up another 25 points, for a maximum of 106+25+3 (fighting defensively) = 134 AC max, 114 AC just walking around, which would let him tank a Hecachonteries with ease. Would need another one of these guys to kill it though. But he's not a tank, he's a gish, which is why he doesn't have defensive feats like that.)

Additional defenses up 24/7:
Must make Fort Save or be stunned when approaching (Hand of Torm)
50% miss chance due to Persistent Greater Blink
DR 5/magic
DR 9/evil
SR34 from spell resistance.
Shield of the Archons (negates one hostile spell per round)
Radiant Shield (reflect 1d6+22 electricity every time hit) + Half damage from electricity
As many Energy Immunities as your campaign allows (some one, some allow all five)
Optional: Starmantle Cloak to be immune to nonmagical attacks, half damage from magical weapons.
Optional: DR10/adamantine (from Stone Body)
Saves (including +3 dwarf bonus vs spells, +4 shield of the archons, +4 Will from rage and +1 Ref from haste):
Fort: +43
Reflex: +24 + Improved Evasion in full plate
Will: +41

Saves with Temporary Bonuses (Recitation, Hand of Divinity and Shield of Warding):
Fort: +47
Reflex: +33 + Improved Evasion in full plate
Will: +48

Progression:
Barbarian: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Spiked Chain [Rage]
Fighter: (Weapon Focus: Heavy Spiked Chain)
Archivist: Endurance [+3 to hit enemies]
Archivist
Archivist
Archivist: Dodge
Archivist: [+3 to saves] /* This ability isn't used in this post */
Archivist
Archivist: Mobility
Archivist:
Archivist
Archivist: Combat Casting, (Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion))
Archivist: [Ability to Stun with Knowledge Checks 6/day]
Contemplative: (Extend Spell) /* Planning Domain */
Spelldancer: Persistent Spell [Ability to persistent unlimited spells per day for free!]
Spelldancer
Divine Oracle
Divine Oracle: Reckless Rage (alternatively Extra Rage), [Prescient Sense]
Church Inquisitor: [Inquisition Domain] /* +4 on dispel checks */
Exotic Weapon Master: [Flurry of Strikes with spiked chain]

Special Abilities of note:
Casts 9th level spells at 18th caster level (22nd CL when buffing for the day).
His abilities function 24/7 due to persistent spell and the spelldancer's ability to add metamagic for free to spells. The first 2 persistents are free, each extra one requires a save or a casting of lesser restoration. He has lots of lesser restorations.
Archivists can cast ANY DIVINE spell (not just cleric spells), so he has cherry picked all the best spells from druids, shujenjas, rangers, paladins, domain spells, initiate feats, etc.
Since he can cast Greater Anyspell at will, he can replicate any 5th level or lower wizard spell as well. Archivists can stun creatures with a knowledge check (no save).
He is colossal sized 24/7, due to persistent Giant Size spell (Oriental Adventures).
All of his attacks catch opponents flat footed due to persistent Greater Blink.
Can full attack on a charge
He takes half damage from melee, reflecting the other half back at the people that hit him. With 482 HP (782 HP counting contingent Heals) it is highly unlikely he will die in melee. Even if people can hit him, they will die before he does. Essentially, he has to take 1584 damage in melee in one round to kill him.
Full attacks start at +59 to hit (+42 final attack), if all hits land deals 648 damage +8 Con damage
Has a persistant gutsnake to grapple hapless foes (+64 on grapple checks) on top of the full attack action
Max Two Luck Domain rerolls in a round (maximum 14 extra charges of luck)
Reflect Spell 1/day (item)
Fly all day long at 90' (good), 120' when hasted
Evasion in Full Plate + half damage from AOE Spells = Improved Evasion in full plate (essentially)
Immunity to Greater Dispel Magic and Reaving Dispel (item)
Immunity to Fear, Charms and Compulsions (item)
Immune to Crits and Sneak Attacks (item)
Permanent Immunity from Arrows (permanent Wind Wall) and immune to weather effects
Dispels other Gish's spells at +4
Can flurry of blows with a 2 handed heavy spiked chain
120 foot darkvision racial
Can go incorporeal and attack with ghost touch weapon on the prime material plane
Move action to get +3 to hit against a foe
Move action to Stun (no save) a foe

Skills of note: His skills are unimportant. He has plenty due to his high Int, which is generally spent on meeting prereqs, and maxxing out Knowledge Skills. At least Planes and Undead will be at +34, allowing him to stun/daze outsiders and undead of roughly 34HD and less without a save, taking only a move action. He also has max ranks in tumble (as a dwarf, he can tumble in full plate).

Spells of Note: He can cast any divine spell, and will cherry pick from all the lists. Generally speaking, most of his 2nd level spells will be lesser restorations so he can do the following power up suite each day:
Persistent Giant Size
Persistent Divine Favor
Persistent Divine Power
Persistent Righteous Might (doesn't stack with Giant Size, but gives DR9/evil)
Persistent Master Air (druid spell -- permanent flying at 90')
Persistent Greater Blink (from celerity domain, no miss chance on own attacks, 50% miss from incoming attacks, 50% from AOE spells, lets you attack as if you were invisible)
Persistent Holy Star (+10 to AC)
Persistent Gutsnake (cast via Greater Anyspell)
Persistent Silverbeard (+2 armor to AC, stacks with armor)
Persistent Stormrage (fly + immune to weather + Wind Wall 24/7)
Persistent Shield of the Archons (negates one hostile spell per round, +4 unnamed bonus on all saves)
Persistent Radiant Shield (deals 1d6+22 electricity damage every time hit, half damage from lightning)
Extended Spell Resistance (SR34)

Temporary Spells:
Extended Owl's Wisdom (+10 to wisdom for 2 hours)

Items of Note:
(Colossal sized equipment costs x16 in base materials)
Nimbleness (+2 max dex) Death Ward Heavy Fortification Mithral Full Plate (Magic Vestment to +5): 12,000gp base cost + 64k magic = 76k
Animated Reflecting Heavy Shield (Magic Vestment to +5): 64k
Ghost Touch Wounding Spellblade (Greater Dispel Magic) Doomwarding Platinum Spiked Chain (GMW to +5): 70k
Spellblade (Reaving Dispel) Doomwarding Armor Spikes: 43k
Boots of Speed: 12k
Amulet of Retribution: 56k (half the melee damage taken by wearer is reflected back to attacker -- Book of Exalted Deeds cheese)
+5 cloak of resistance = 25k
Manual of Bodily Health (+2) = 55k
Manual of Gainful Excercise (+5) = 134k
+4 gloves of dex = 16x
+2 headband = 4k
+6 amulet of health = 36k
Dagger of Warding (12k) grant immunity to fear, charms and compulsions (FR)
Luckstone 20k
Necklace of Prayer Beads (Standard): 26k
Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 to attacks and saves): 30k
Orangle Ioun Stone (+1 caster level): 30k
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 insight to AC): 5k
=714k (change left over to transcribe spells into spellbook, off scrolls if necessary)Books: Oriental Adventures, Heroes of Horror, Player's Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Book of Exalted Deeds.

Why is this character the ultimate Gish? His maximum attack sequence is:
+59/+59/+57/+57/+57/+52/+47/+42 with all attacks catching the enemy flatfooted.

(Normal All Day Long attack sequence of only: +57/+57/+57/+52/+47/+42)
A colossal heavy spiked chain deals 8d6 per hit. Each hit deals averages 81 damage + 1 Con (Wounding). He thus does 648 damage +8 Con WITHOUT USING POWER ATTACK. If he had power attack, he'd do 968 damage a round with full power attack. (He can easily swap out Reckless Rage for Power Attack if he feels saucy.)

Attacks (with haste):
+5 weapon enhancement bonus
+29 str
+1 weapon focus
+20 BAB (/ +64 grapple)
+1 insight to hit (ioun stone)
+3 luck divine favor
+1 haste
-8 size modifier
+2 Invisible from Greater Blink (plus enemy is flatfooted)
Temporary Effects:
+2 morale bonus righteous wrath of the faithful
+3 unnamed Archivist Bonus (Tactics)
=+57/+57/+57/+52/+47/+42 (haste, flurry, then 4 from BAB)
If burning gold like water (burning 2 doomwarding charges at 7k per charge):
+59/+59/+57/+57/+57/+52/+47/+42

Damage:
8d6 base
+5 weapon
+43 str
+3 luck divine favor
+2 morale righteous wrath
+2 CON damage (wounding
=8d6+53+2 CON per hit
...plus a gutnsake for a free attack and improved grab to handle grappling (+64 on grapple checks is pretty decent). Can drag around grappled people without issue.

All attacks hit for: 486 damage + 12 CON damage (no power attack) or 648 damage +16 CON if burning doomwarding charges.

Alternatively, he can stun a creature with a move action (no save), once per creature per day, as long as the creature has around 21HD or less, or can daze (no save) a creature with 31HD or less (plus or minus 10HD depending on the knowledge roll). If they are of the right type.

He's +31 (+33 on two) on Knowledge Checks. Depending on how many skill points he has left over controls how many different types of monsters he can stun/daze. He'd definitely have outsiders and undead at +33. His AC starts at 69 and tops out at around 80 to 100 without fighting defensively or using improved combat expertise.

Notes:
His abilities are up 24/7. He does not need to waste precious combat actions casting spells. Given time to buff, he can squeeze a few more points out in every category.

He can cast any divine spell in the game, and any wizard spell of 5th level or lower (Or 6th using limited wishes)

He is COLOSSAL SIZED all day long. How cool is that? Grapple checks, obstacles? Hah! He spits on them. Plus he terrifies his enemies. The only downside to Giant size is that he has to buy colossal sized equipment. Giant size does not resize your existing equipment.

He is impossible to dispel using dispel magic, or targetted greater dispel magic or reaving dispel. Disjunction can't be stopped, but it is cheese, and banned in most campaigns anyway. If the campaign allows it, he would burn a miracle to become immune to disjunction.

He can take a Hecatoncheires in a stand up, beat down fight. The fight isn't even close to being fair for the Heca, in fact. (See below)

He can spell turn any spell once per day, and can spell turn targetted reaving dispels and greater dispels back on the caster all day long (no ring of counterspells here!).

He can dispel other Gishs at a maximum of +24 on his greater dispel magic checks (Inquisition Domain)

He can have up two contingent Heals using Contingency (Heal) and Spell Phylactery (Bracer Slot): Heal (Heal can indeed be Phylacteried.) This effectively gives him an extra 300 hit points, to needing to be hit for 792 hit points (782+10) in one round to kill him, or 1,584 HP! in melee damage in one round to kill him (due to the amulet of retribution reflecting half back). And whoever is attacking him will almost assuredly die first. Counting Starmantle (no damage from nonmagical weapons and half damage from magical weapons) and Improved Blink (50% miss chance) we're honestyly talking about 6,336 HP of melee damage to kill him.

Did I mention he's colossal? And has a ridiculously high AC and attack sequence to go with it. He can full attack on a charge. Unlike other Gishes, he can go all day long, without needing to rebuff. He can also cast Heal and Mass Heal, unlike most Gishs, who are arcane.

His ability to stun without a save is ridiculous, costing him only a move action to knock any outsider or undead out of the combat for a round, with no save. He can do it 6/day, but no more than once per opponent.

He can trade off Reckless Rage (for -2 to str and con, +2 to AC), for Extra Rage so that he can rage less hard but more often.

He can buy a defending weapon (instead of the useless flying ability) and take Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise to hit AC125 or so. The current build is an aggressive build, not a defensive build.

His only weakness is a lack of great cleave and combat reflexes. Not a big deal since with 6-8 attacks a round he will do just fine without cleaving. The only weakness is against swarms of low level opponents, against which he'd just use a Wail of the Banshee or AOE damage spell. Combat reflexes could be really good, but in high level combat, many opponents ignore AOOs from movement and from spellcasting due to high tumble and concentration scores. Reckless Rage could be dropped for Combat Reflexes (and then maybe Large and In Charge) to have a more consistent, all-day-long type character, at the cost of a little bit of to hit and burst damage.

Special competitions: He does fine, just fine, against any special circumstance. Evil bad guy in a castle? Poke him through the window in top of his tower. Dragons? Magical Beasts? Anything? Just beat the living daylights out of him. His sole weakness is areas too small to support his large stature, of which there are always ways around. He is a full progression spellcaster, who doesn't need to burn higher level slots on metamagic (a +6 persistent spell of a 7th level spell only takes a 7th level spell slot for him), which means all his top spell slots (8th and 9th level spells) are free for utility, offense, whatever. His powerup suite just takes his useless mid-level spells. This is HUGE difference from most gishes, who burn all their 9th level spells on Shapechanges and Quickened Righteous Mights.

Lower Levels: Essentially, you can play around with the build order -- as long as you have divine spells and spelldancer, you can persistent anything. So maybe below about 8th level he's just another boring cleric type, but past that he's a permanently buffed fighting machine. There's really no dead levels in the build though. A barbarian1/fighter1 with weapon focus in a 2d6 spiked chain is about as good as characters get at 2nd level, you know?

Anti-magic: He can swap out Reckless Rage for Initiate of Mystra, with some finagleing. Alternatively, he just miracles to become immune.

Hecatoncheires: Apparently, comparing your build against a Heca is all the rage these days. Essentially, to fight a Heca (a +37CR combat) he'd need a few rounds to put up his temporary buff spells (including Holy Weapon to stop his regeneration). Once done, he's above the death point (93AC is when the Heca starts needing to roll 20s to hit), and will only be taking 2.5 hits per round (5 nat 20s / 2 blink), or about 22 damage a round, which is insignificant (the heca will also take 22). AC70 is only +12 above my top attack rolls. With 80 damage + 7 holy - 20 DR = 57 damage per hit, we're looking at about 18 hits to kill, or maybe 3-4 rounds or so. Maybe 5 or 6 counting his fast healing. It doesn't matter, the heca will be doing piddly damage every round, and won't even break through to the first contingent Heal by the time it dies. In fact, in all honesty, he could just lie down and let the Heca full attack him, and the reflected damage from the Amulet of Retribution would still almost be enough alone to kill the Heca without doing anything else (since it bypasses his DR). The fight would go like this:
0) Prep, then lie down, let the heca power attack for full or whatever. Maybe Bear's Heart for 80 temp hp or so.
1) Heca begins full attack sequence
2) Readied Action (Mass Heal goes off at half life) to heal 250 hp.
3) Character now has more effective max hp than the Heca
4) Therefore the Heca dies from reflected damage before character dies

Additional Restrictions:
*Powerful Magic: Able to manifest 9th level spells from all divine spell lists, and arcane spells of 5th-6th level and less
*High Base Attack: +20 BAB by 20th level.
*No ASF: Divine Spells are not subject to ASF.
*High Armor Class: Without buffs he has 69 AC, which meets the greater than or equal to 40 constraint.
*High Damage: He tops out at 968 damage a round, plus 8 con damage, which is well above 200 a round.
*No Form Altering: Giant size isn't form altering. Per the rules, it is merely an enlargement effect, and is allowed.

-ShakaUVM 06-10-06, 02:04 AM
this is a cool build, i love the spelldancer prestige class, i have never seen it before, very cool!

one little nitpick tho, why dont you persist wraith strike (spell compendium) for all touch attacks, that way, since you catch them flat footed anyways, they wont have anything but deflection to ac

also, what item makes you immune to dispell magic?
one little nitpick tho, why dont you persist wraith strike (spell compendium) for all touch attacks, that way, since you catch them flat footed anyways, they wont have anything but deflection to ac



I believe the build doesn't actually get a chance to put wraithstrike in his spellbook, so he can't apply metamagic to it.
anyspell lets him do it, it would also let him use power attack at all times, since he does not have to worry about ac (since they are already flat)
Sorry dude, that is a nice build, HOWEVER, from what your saying, is you can cast any divine spell in the game.

Now mind explaining, where the heck you pulled the 'Giant Size' spell from? its Wujen, its no where NEAR! being viable for what your doing, Its only restricted to a Wujen Caster.

Now onto the rest of your build it looks good for those who arent looking at it directly reading every word instead of just skimming.  Since you FUBAR'd on abusing Giant Size spell, I wonder what else you screwed up on.  If your gonna do something like this, you have to give details as to where the spell came from, what sources your using and such.  If you cant explain any of this, then its not viable worth a damn.

For instance.  Collosus of war? a Deep dwarf is viable, however, Your Colluses of what doesnt exist anymore sense you have screwed it all up by abusing spells you cant have access too.
My favorite part is where conjecture and explain defeating a Hecatoncheires without attacking.
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.
Sorry dude, that is a nice build, HOWEVER, from what your saying, is you can cast any divine spell in the game.

Now mind explaining, where the heck you pulled the 'Giant Size' spell from? its Wujen, its no where NEAR! being viable for what your doing, Its only restricted to a Wujen Caster.

Page 105 of Oriental Adventures has Giant Size as a Wu Jen 7th level Spell, 8th level Spell for people with the Hero Domain.  Hero Domain is a divine spell and thus the Archivist can learn.  Oriental Adventures was updated in Dragon 318, the spell was not modified in Dragon 318 thus there is no changes in the update to 3.5.

Or you can get Giant Size via the all powerful Miracle Spell.  Miracle allows you to duplicate any spell of 7th level or lower.  Giant Size is on the 7th level Wu Jen list so it is a spell of 7th level or lower.

The original post is using the hero domain version of giant size from oriental adventures.

Sorry dude, that is a nice build, HOWEVER, from what your saying, is you can cast any divine spell in the game.

Now mind explaining, where the heck you pulled the 'Giant Size' spell from? its Wujen, its no where NEAR! being viable for what your doing, Its only restricted to a Wujen Caster.

Now onto the rest of your build it looks good for those who arent looking at it directly reading every word instead of just skimming.  Since you FUBAR'd on abusing Giant Size spell, I wonder what else you screwed up on.  If your gonna do something like this, you have to give details as to where the spell came from, what sources your using and such.  If you cant explain any of this, then its not viable worth a damn.

For instance.  Collosus of war? a Deep dwarf is viable, however, Your Colluses of what doesnt exist anymore sense you have screwed it all up by abusing spells you cant have access too.

Nice job making yourself look like a total douche who also has no idea what he's talking about.

Sorry dude, that is a nice build, HOWEVER, from what your saying, is you can cast any divine spell in the game.

Now mind explaining, where the heck you pulled the 'Giant Size' spell from? its Wujen, its no where NEAR! being viable for what your doing, Its only restricted to a Wujen Caster.

Now onto the rest of your build it looks good for those who arent looking at it directly reading every word instead of just skimming.  Since you FUBAR'd on abusing Giant Size spell, I wonder what else you screwed up on.  If your gonna do something like this, you have to give details as to where the spell came from, what sources your using and such.  If you cant explain any of this, then its not viable worth a damn.

For instance.  Collosus of war? a Deep dwarf is viable, however, Your Colluses of what doesnt exist anymore sense you have screwed it all up by abusing spells you cant have access too.

Nice job making yourself look like a total douche who also has no idea what he's talking about.



+1
Nice job making yourself look like a total douche who also has no idea what he's talking about.

Heh, yeah.

I think he confused "Colossus" with "Calluses".

I remember that build. It's interesting, but its power pretty much hinges on Spelldancer - which in turn is Divine Metamagic with a lower cost.

Also:
- I suspect some of the spells you're using have been updated: I know Holy Star has been, in the SC (lower but still sizeable AC bonus), as well as Silverbeard (now gives a sacred bonus). On the other hand the SC opens up new options like Greater Visage of the Deity.
I've done a lot of book-diving in the past for my own Archivist builds...

- you must be an Archon to cast Shield of the Archons.

- you list the Archivist bonus under both AC and attack (and you mention stunning) but Dark Knowledge is once per creature.

But the punchline is of course that a tunnel is enough to defeat him. ;) (I know, you mention that in he writeup.)

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
I remember that build. It's interesting, but its power pretty much hinges on Spelldancer - which in turn is Divine Metamagic with a lower cost.

Right, but any source of cheap or free metamagic results in similar insanity, which is why it's banned in Living Planar. This build is, as mentioned, a demonstration of why certain things should be banned in 3e as much as being an over the top build.

Also:
- I suspect some of the spells you're using have been updated: I know Holy Star has been, in the SC (lower but still sizeable AC bonus), as well as Silverbeard (now gives a sacred bonus).

- you must be an Archon to cast Shield of the Archons.

- you list the Archivist bonus under both AC and attack (and you mention stunning) but Dark Knowledge is once per creature.

But the punchline is of course that a tunnel is enough to defeat him. ;) (I know, you mention that in he writeup.)

Yeah, I wrote it a while ago. I don't think the changes are enough to make much of a difference.
Well, for starters, initiate feats and spells particular to deities now require sponsorship by the Deity.

Spelldancer is, I believe, a barred 3.0 PrC.  Unrestricted metamagic is the abuse factor here, like in so many builds.  They were abusing Spelldancers a long, long time ago.

Multiple Defending weapons don't stack.  Argue all you like for a home campaign, but don't expect anyone serious to agree with you.

Starmantle and Amulet of Retribution abuse are also old tricks and work for anyone.  What if the Hecantoheires is wearing one?  Any of the gish builds?

And unless you have Initiate of Mystra, a simple anti-magic shell or hurled Dust of Dis (whatever, from Lords of Madness, makes an A-M Shell?) shuts you down, and then a tumbling level 20 fighter could clean your clock.  There's no effect, including wish, that allows you to be immune to AM shells except that one feat...which many DM's ignore simply because it's so overpowered.  The flavor of it was designed for wild magic and dead magic zones, not A-M shells.

You're incredibly buff reliant.  A beholder looking at you crosswise turns you into a level 20 example of a punching bag.

It's a nice theory build.  Also, there's four or five dispelling spells out there now, and if you can cheese all those persistent spells, I'd have no problems using a Disjunction on you.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Spelldancer is, I believe, a barred 3.0 PrC.  Unrestricted metamagic is the abuse factor here, like in so many builds.  They were abusing Spelldancers a long, long time ago.

Barred? Who barred it? The magic hand-waving gods?

Multiple Defending weapons don't stack.  Argue all you like for a home campaign, but don't expect anyone serious to agree with you.

His AC is ridiculously high with or without defending weapons.

Starmantle and Amulet of Retribution abuse are also old tricks and work for anyone.

This is an old build, written 5 years ago or so.

What if the Hecantoheires is wearing one?  Any of the gish builds?

If the Heca is wearing one, we still win (easily).

And unless you have Initiate of Mystra, a simple anti-magic shell or hurled Dust of Dis (whatever, from Lords of Madness, makes an A-M Shell?) shuts you down, and then a tumbling level 20 fighter could clean your clock.  There's no effect, including wish, that allows you to be immune to AM shells except that one feat...which many DM's ignore simply because it's so overpowered.  The flavor of it was designed for wild magic and dead magic zones, not A-M shells.

Great for you. But wish is suitable for making magic work in dead magic zones, since dead magic zones are created by wishes. It's symmetrical.

You're incredibly buff reliant.  A beholder looking at you crosswise turns you into a level 20 example of a punching bag.

If he can't cast in an AM field.

It's a nice theory build.  Also, there's four or five dispelling spells out there now, and if you can cheese all those persistent spells, I'd have no problems using a Disjunction on you.

Miracle immunity to disjunction then.

But it's not a theory build. My main character in LC was a toned-down version of this exact character.
Wishes create small dead magic zones, or get rid of them.  They don't make you able to cast in one. Strike one.

There's no ruling that you can Wish yourself immune to Anti-Magic shells.  Strike Two.

Miracle can't make you immune to another 9th level spell. Strike three.

A hecantoheires is capable of throwing rocks.  As a DM I'd sub in that Giant's feat that allows them to use their Str bonus instead of their Dex bonus to hit.  Regardless, even if they only hit on a nat 20, they are still doing  base 160 pts/dmg to you a round (+5 boulders!), and taking no damage in return.  That's also not melee damage.

If they do melee you, you are also ignoring the fact that they regenerate 50 and fast heal 40 points of damage per round.  Dmg from their greatswords is actually 2-12 +25, because they'll definitely be casting that level 57 Greater Magic Weapon on all their toys.  So, they are also +78 to hit.  You are also colossal, so they get all 100 attacks against you, and their true seeing trumps your blinking.

And we haven't even dipped into the stuff they could own with a CR 57 treasure stash, nor do we know if the retributive damage from the amulet bypasses SR, as it is magical force damage.

The Starmantle Cloak and Retributive Amulet are actually items from warhammer that some wag moved over into D@D, where they don't work nearly as well as intended...and definitely aren't priced that way.
===
Like I said, it's a nice theory build.  But it's based on a PrC that was abusable from day 1; metamagic abuse; and rampant reliance on buffs and broken magical items.  Not a great idea for a build IMO.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Wishes create small dead magic zones, or get rid of them.  They don't make you able to cast in one. Strike one.

There's no ruling that you can Wish yourself immune to Anti-Magic shells.  Strike Two.

Miracle can't make you immune to another 9th level spell. Strike three.

That's why they're open ended spells. "Other powers in line with similar effects" covered wishes and dead magic -> AMF, and immunity to disjunction (or you could set up a contingent teleport or the like).

There is no immunity to DM fiat, though, so there's really no point arguing about it. A DM is much better off just banning free metamagic anyway.

A hecantoheires is capable of throwing rocks.  As a DM I'd sub in that Giant's feat that allows them to use their Str bonus instead of their Dex bonus to hit.  Regardless, even if they only hit on a nat 20, they are still doing  base 160 pts/dmg to you a round (+5 boulders!), and taking no damage in return.  That's also not melee damage.

DM fiat always beats characters.

Like I said, it's a nice theory build.  But it's based on a PrC that was abusable from day 1; metamagic abuse; and rampant reliance on buffs and broken magical items.  Not a great idea for a build IMO.

Again, not really a theory build, though it's so powerful, you could call it such, since no sane DM would allow it.
Well, for starters, initiate feats and spells particular to deities now require sponsorship by the Deity.

[...]

Multiple Defending weapons don't stack.



Re-check the build:

(1) He is not actually taking any initiate feats.

(2) Clerics are prohibited from casting spells that are particular to a different diety than theirs (and without the appropriate feat). Archivists have no such restriction.

(3) The build doen't even use a defending weapon. He merely points out that it would increase the AC even further. With 100+ AC, that hardly seems necessary.


Spelldancer is, I believe, a barred 3.0 PrC. 

[...]

Starmantle and Amulet of Retribution abuse are also old tricks and work for anyone.  What if the Hecantoheires is wearing one?  Any of the gish builds?

[...]

The Starmantle Cloak and Retributive Amulet are actually items from warhammer that some wag moved over into D@D, where they don't work nearly as well as intended...and definitely aren't priced that way.



Barred by whom? Are you talking about your personal preferences?

Old tricks =/= bad tricks. Given the time this build was thought up, this was state-of-the-art. If the Heca has an amulet as well: nothing changes.

And your opinion on the items has no implication on the legality of this build.


And unless you have Initiate of Mystra, a simple anti-magic shell or hurled Dust of Dis (whatever, from Lords of Madness, makes an A-M Shell?) shuts you down, and then a tumbling level 20 fighter could clean your clock.  There's no effect, including wish, that allows you to be immune to AM shells except that one feat...which many DM's ignore simply because it's so overpowered.  The flavor of it was designed for wild magic and dead magic zones, not A-M shells.

[...]

You're incredibly buff reliant.




Every serious high-level build gets screwed by an AMF. That's old news. That gishes rely even move on buffs is also not a deep insight.

Craft Contingent Spell can help avoid many situations where this would be a problem, though.


Wishes create small dead magic zones, or get rid of them.  They don't make you able to cast in one. Strike one.

There's no ruling that you can Wish yourself immune to Anti-Magic shells.  Strike Two.

Miracle can't make you immune to another 9th level spell. Strike three.



That's your assertion. It doesn't have RAW backing it up. In fact, the spell description explicitly states that you can ask for more powerful effects than those listed.

And what's with the inane "strike one/two/three"? Is that really necessary?


You are also colossal, so they get all 100 attacks against you, and their true seeing trumps your blinking.



True Seeing does nothing to blinking. Please read up on the rules.


And we haven't even dipped into the stuff they could own with a CR 57 treasure stash, nor do we know if the retributive damage from the amulet bypasses SR, as it is magical force damage.



ShakaUVM already addressed this one: DM fiat always beats characters.


Nice job making yourself look like a total douche who also has no idea what he's talking about.



+2

They see me trollin', they hatin', postin' tryin' to make me ragequit.
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.
Archivists are by no means immune to the rule that says to use XXXX spell, you must worship that deity.  They can learn it all they like and shove it in their books, but only that deity can and will grant it, and Archivist probably doesn't qualify.  Now, domain spells and the like, they can still cast.  But they can't cast vile or exalted spells without pre-qualifying, either, as an example.

Cherry-picking the latest feats, which all characters do, is quite unfair to monsters made under old, old rules and never updated.  He is, after all, cherry-picking things that were not reprinted and are known to be abusable...so the power isn't the build, it's the abusable stuff he's picking.

Wishes and Miracles can at best duplicate other spells of level 8 or lower. There are no spells that grant you ongoing immunity to A-M Shells.

And grow up some year, Tytalus.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Archivists are by no means immune to the rule that says to use XXXX spell, you must worship that deity. 



Perhaps we are talking about different rules, then. Where does it say that exactly? I'm referring to PGtF, p. 79, which covers deity-specifc spells. The RAW there makes restrictions only (and explicitly) for clerics.

Also, archivists can learn any spell that was scribed onto a scroll.


Cherry-picking the latest feats, which all characters do, is quite unfair to monsters made under old, old rules and never updated.  He is, after all, cherry-picking things that were not reprinted and are known to be abusable...so the power isn't the build, it's the abusable stuff he's picking.



I understand you general point, but in respect to this particular case it's simply wrong. When the Epic-Level Handbook was printed, most of the things you lament were, in fact, well-known. Keep in mind that this is a very old build. No doubt it would look different today.



Wishes and Miracles can at best duplicate other spells of level 8 or lower. There are no spells that grant you ongoing immunity to A-M Shells.



RAW quote, please? I can't seem to find these restrictions in the spell descriptions. In fact, both spells explicitly say that you can ask for more powerful effects as those listed.

Duplication of spells is the minimum (as per their spell descriptions, e.g. any Sor/Wiz spell of 8th or lower of non-prohibited schools for "Wish"), not at best--at least, for "Wish" as "Miracle" requires divine request/intercession/intervention.

References:
www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Miracle.htm
www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.
I'm looking at the Archivist class from Heroes of Horror, which says nothing about ignoring spells restrictions of divine spells in the class description on acquiring spells.  he can acquire all the spells he likes of divine origin, it doesn't mean he can cast them.

Wish and Miracle very clearly delineate what they can and cannot cast.  There is no spell they can duplicate that can render you immune to AMF.  If you want to try for something that can, you have now entered the 'screw the player zone' where the DM is absolutely free to twist your wording as desired...or play the deity and refuse it. I.e. you can use it as a basis for what is possible.  By that definition, if your DM allowed you, one wish could make you level 30 instantly.  It's not something to bring to a discussion, because the odds are you'll get what you wanted, but not how you wanted it.

As a reference point, the only spell that can be cast in an AMF is a level 9 spell, and a Wish can't duplicate that without risking a screwball.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I'm looking at the Archivist class from Heroes of Horror, which says nothing about ignoring spells restrictions of divine spells in the class description on acquiring spells.  he can acquire all the spells he likes of divine origin, it doesn't mean he can cast them.

Reading over the Initiate feats and the flavor text before it in PGtF (p79), it doesn't say anything about needing the feat to cast them. They just "add the spells to your cleric list", which means Archivists can cast them just fine, since they're not cleric-of-a-deity-specific (the flavor text notes that the spells can be added to non-cleric spell lists).

Archivists can add any divine spell to their list, so they have a way around needing the feat to add them to their list. The spells themselves have no restrictions on being able to cast them, like you imply.


I'd interpret that clause the exact other direction.  The spells are not on any divine spell list, including yours, until you have that feat.  Ergo, the Archivist can't add them, because they aren't on any spell list until he has the feat, too.  i.e. they can't exist on a spell list until you have the feat.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I'd interpret that clause the exact other direction.  The spells are not on any divine spell list, including yours, until you have that feat.  Ergo, the Archivist can't add them, because they aren't on any spell list until he has the feat, too.  i.e. they can't exist on a spell list until you have the feat.

That is just a load of nonsense. What is this, Schrodinger's Spell List?
Interpret as you like.  You're using a very broad interpretation of what is possible with the Archivist that caters to powergaming.  I'm using a very narrow interpretation that aligns more with the intent of the rules (these spells are exclusive to people with these feats).  RAW can be interpreted any way you want to, english being the language it is.  Designer intent has to be figured in, and designer intent is pretty clear those are exclusive spells by deity, adding in some flavor that an archivist shouldn't be able to just swoop in and steal.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Interpret as you like.  You're using a very broad interpretation of what is possible with the Archivist that caters to powergaming.  I'm using a very narrow interpretation that aligns more with the intent of the rules (these spells are exclusive to people with these feats).  RAW can be interpreted any way you want to, english being the language it is.  Designer intent has to be figured in, and designer intent is pretty clear those are exclusive spells by deity, adding in some flavor that an archivist shouldn't be able to just swoop in and steal.

==Aelryinth



Translation:
Here is a set of house rules that I advocate as working based on how I percieve the game to work.

Ael,
I would tend to agree with you as to how to rule it, but unfortunately, the CO boards operate under different assumptions ... not silly stuff like wishing to level 30, but more like well ... colossuses (colossi?)

Others:
I would look forward to seeing something like this made more up-to-date / modern ... any takers?
What's with the insulting 'reinterpretations'?  I can convey exactly what I mean in my own way, thank you.  I don't need you to make lameass comments 'speaking' for me.

The correct 'translation' is:

Here is how I interpret the RAW. Interpret them your own way, your mileage may vary.  There is no firm point on this ruling.  The designers intent signals that such spells are not meant to be available to anyone without the feat, in any event.

The limitations on wish are spelled out in the spells. He is clearly going into 'iffy' territory with his requests, which means creative reinterpretation of his requests.  That's not going to fly.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
No, it is bullcrap. Your own statement is contradictory. Here is why.

The spells are not on any divine spell list, including yours, until you have that feat.

And then they are on your list. Which means that they're also on some other guy's list, who has the feat. Which means that you can get that guy to scribe you a scroll of it. And since the archivist can specifically learn any divine spell from a scroll, he can use it.

IIRC, the archivist doesn't need it to be on someone's list in the first place. He needs it to be on a scroll. If it is divine and on a scroll, he can learn it. All this crap about lists is a red herring.

Edit: Umm... yeah.

At any time, an archivist can also add spells
found on scrolls containing divine
spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any
rolls and spend the time required (see Adding
Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook on page 178 of
the Player’s Handbook). The archivist can learn
and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in
this fashion but the two free spells he gains
for advancing in class level must be selected
from the cleric spell list.


No, it is bullcrap. Your own statement is contradictory. Here is why.

[...]

IIRC, the archivist doesn't need it to be on someone's list in the first place. He needs it to be on a scroll. If it is divine and on a scroll, he can learn it. All this crap about lists is a red herring.



Thank you. That fake rule discussion went on too long already.


Others:
I would look forward to seeing something like this made more up-to-date / modern ... any takers?



Well, not much changes. The core parts are the archivist levels with their broad spell access (incl. Giant Size) and some way to persist the essential buffs. Everything else is - more or less - optional.

Nowadays, Spellsinger is hardly used anymore as it has a bit of a bad reputation for being broken. It would probably be replaced by a level of cleric (Planning, Undeath) going for Divine Metamagic (Persist). This would severely reduce the number of persisted spells (assuming a limit on Nightsticks), though, and affect the feats available. Fortunately, some of the spells listed have overlapping effects, or can be replaced by newer spells with longer durations, so that not all of them are absolutely essential.

Staples like Practiced Spellcaster (Archivist) are missing. I doubt that all three non-caster levels are still needed and would probably drop one and replace another with a level of warblade or crusader for stances & maneuvers.

Several newer spells are useful for such a build, such as Wraithstrike, Superior Resistance (not really necessary, but better than the cloak), Bladeweave, Elemental Body (difficult to pull that one off), etc.

Newer items are also available. I'd wager that a Monk's Belt of Battle/Magnificence+6 would be a good investment, if the protective enchantments of the former full plate are moved onto a simple set of robes (or Bracers of Armor, according to the A&EG guidelines).

It would also be nice if the limitations of the spells/etc. used became clearer. So is the retributive damage from Radiant Shield subject to Spell Resistance (and thus questionable in the Heca scenario), and the Shield of the Archon's has a good chance of shattering (i.e., becoming useless) whenever it blocks a spell, for example.

Finally, a few rule updates need to be incorporated. So does Holy Star now only confer +6 AC (not +10) bonus since Spell Compendium (and actually isn't a diety-specific spell anymore .
Nowadays, Spellsinger is hardly used anymore as it has a bit of a bad reputation for being broken. It would probably be replaced by a level of cleric (Planning, Undeath) going for Divine Metamagic (Persist). This would severely reduce the number of persisted spells (assuming a limit on Nightsticks), though, and affect the feats available. Fortunately, some of the spells listed have overlapping effects, or can be replaced by newer spells with longer durations, so that not all of them are absolutely essential.

A cleric dip where you take Rebuke Dragons instead of Turn Undead, which you can specifically use to fuel Divine feats. Then dip Sacred Exorcist to get actual Turn Undead. And you could even add a level of Dread Necromancer for Rebuke Undead, if you wanted, but I forget if the alignments conflict there, or if you'd lose anything for becoming a good dread necromancer. And then there is something about the Azurin race that can let you get yet another pool of Turn attempts somehow, but I forget how that works. Anyway, yeah, you can get 3-4 pools of Turn Undead in one build, if you want. So you can still persist plenty of spells, even without a bunch of Nightsticks. Extra Turning adds +4 attempts to each one of those pools, also. So there's your "modern update".



Please. 

Initiate spells cannot exist on YOUR spell list unless you have the feats.  There's nothing in the Archivist ability that abrogates that.  The fact some guy halfway across the planet has them on his list is because he took the feat.  You copy them, you learn them...and you can't cast them because they can't exist on your list without the feat.  Your archivist ability does NOT trump the requirement of the spells themselves.  THey cannot be added to YOUR spell list without the feat, it's that simple.  The feat doesn't just give you the spells (you'd have a sliver of an argument if just that were true)...the spells are also dependent on the feat, because they've got that Initiate qualifer built into em.  ANd the archivist ability doesn't slide spell reqs.

Initiate spells are fundamentally no different from exalted or vile spells that way, except the req is serving a god, not being pure of an alignment.

Nightsticks do not stack, and certainly bunches of them don't pool.  They count as same source the way all other such bonuses do.  Using them in a build doesn't work, it's considered more rules cheese and bad RAI.

==Aelryinth

Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Nowadays, Spellsinger is hardly used anymore as it has a bit of a bad reputation for being broken. It would probably be replaced by a level of cleric (Planning, Undeath) going for Divine Metamagic (Persist). This would severely reduce the number of persisted spells (assuming a limit on Nightsticks), though, and affect the feats available. Fortunately, some of the spells listed have overlapping effects, or can be replaced by newer spells with longer durations, so that not all of them are absolutely essential.

A cleric dip where you take Rebuke Dragons instead of Turn Undead, which you can specifically use to fuel Divine feats. Then dip Sacred Exorcist to get actual Turn Undead. And you could even add a level of Dread Necromancer for Rebuke Undead, if you wanted, but I forget if the alignments conflict there, or if you'd lose anything for becoming a good dread necromancer. And then there is something about the Azurin race that can let you get yet another pool of Turn attempts somehow, but I forget how that works. Anyway, yeah, you can get 3-4 pools of Turn Undead in one build, if you want. So you can still persist plenty of spells, even without a bunch of Nightsticks. Extra Turning adds +4 attempts to each one of those pools, also. So there's your "modern update".




Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su) is a single ability.  You either turn or you rebuke.  I don't believe a neutral cleric with "Turn Undead" can take a level of "Dread Necromancer" to also get "Rebuke Undead".


Also the FAQ states "You can’t voluntarily change whether your character turns or rebukes undead. If your new alignment would require a change—such as a turning cleric who becomes evil, or a LG
cleric of Wee Jas who becomes LN—the change is applied automatically."   Which would also suggest that you get one or the other, not both.


The use of "Rebuke Dragons" does appear to work.  It states "An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats, or for using other abilities that require you to expend a use of your turn or rebuke ability". 


I had pretty much dismissed stacking turn/rebuke abilities for powering divine metamagic.  I learned something today, thanks!

Please. 

Nightsticks do not stack, and certainly bunches of them don't pool.  They count as same source the way all other such bonuses do.  Using them in a build doesn't work, it's considered more rules cheese and bad RAI.




I agree...

The FAQ states "As long as you remember that the important number to track is not uses remaining, but uses expended, everything else should fall into place."

Thus Nightsticks do not stack.  If you have 5 turns available and 3 used.  Then you pick up a Nightstick you will have 9 turns available and 3 used.  Not quite enough for a 7 turn persistent spell.  You pick up a second Nightstick, no bonus.  Standard stacking rules state that same named bonuses do not stack, thus Nightstick turn bonus + Nightstick turn bonus = +4 turns (not +8).  If you decide to use 5 turns to quicken something, your left with 9 turns available and 8 used.  If you drop the Nightstick your at 5 turns available and 8 used.  Pick up a new Nightstick and your at 9 turns available and 8 used.  As you can see you just can't get any benefit out of a second Nightstick.

As far as I know a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol are the only two magic items that provide a bonus to turns.  Neither stack with themselves, but you can have 1 of each.

Initiate spells cannot exist on YOUR spell list unless you have the feats.  There's nothing in the Archivist ability that abrogates that.  The fact some guy halfway across the planet has them on his list is because he took the feat.  You copy them, you learn them...and you can't cast them because they can't exist on your list without the feat.  Your archivist ability does NOT trump the requirement of the spells themselves.  THey cannot be added to YOUR spell list without the feat, it's that simple.  The feat doesn't just give you the spells (you'd have a sliver of an argument if just that were true)...the spells are also dependent on the feat, because they've got that Initiate qualifer built into em.  ANd the archivist ability doesn't slide spell reqs.

Initiate spells are fundamentally no different from exalted or vile spells that way, except the req is serving a god, not being pure of an alignment.



I'll ask again: can you cite the source for that?

Deity-specific spells were revised in PGtF, which merely makes the recommendation to restrict their use by clerics (not other divine casters).

Archivist do not have a spell list, thus your point above is moot. In fact, they are explicitly (!) not restricted to the cleric spell list. As long as a scroll exists, they can learn and cast it. Please actually read the RAW.

Speaking of moot discussions: note that the spells in question are no longer deity-specific since Spell Compendium came out.
Archivists have a spell list: their own list, for starters, and All Divne Spells.

Those spells don't exist on those lists without the INitiate feats. The source is the spells and the initiate feats...go read them. Archivists cannot overcome restrictions built into the spells themselves.  Those spells aren't added to your accessible list until you have the feat, that simple.

and if Spell Compendium did away with Initiate reqs, that's a different ball of wax.  Campaign dependent, more then anything...and since he's using Mystran magic to cast in A-M shells, pretty sure the FR Initiate rules still hold.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Archivists have a spell list: their own list, for starters, and All Divne Spells.



Are initiate spells divine spells? Yes. Ergo, they are among what you called "All Divine Spells".

But aside from that, the Archivist's rules specifically spell out that they can learn and prepare (and thus cast, see PHB p.-170) any divine spell: "At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook on page 178 of the Player’s Handbook).". So, as long as a scroll of such a spell exists, he's golden. This directly follows from the "specific beats gerneral" rule (even though there's really no general rule prohibiting it, see above).


The source is the spells and the initiate feats...go read them.



Obsviously I did: "Deity-specific spells were revised in PGtF, which merely makes the recommendation to restrict their use by clerics (not other divine casters).". I'd like you to cite where in particular you believe that this is not the case. A RAW quote is much better to discuss.


and if Spell Compendium did away with Initiate reqs, that's a different ball of wax.  Campaign dependent, more then anything...and since he's using Mystran magic to cast in A-M shells, pretty sure the FR Initiate rules still hold.



Not at all. SC is newer, so by default it has precedence.
Campaign rules always have precedence over other rules, including core.  That's what makes them campaign specific.

Having the potential to cast all divine spells doens't insure that an Archivist can.  he can't use Exalted spells, he can't use Vile spells without the underlying qualifications.  And he can't use Initiate spells because the spells check for the qualifier, and he won't have it.  It doens't matter if they are on a list or not.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Campaign rules always have precedence over other rules, including core.  That's what makes them campaign specific.



That's true in general, but is compeltely irrelevant in this case.

If a particular rule (here: spell, but also feat, weapon, etc.) is updated in a newer supplement, that takes precedence.

Here, (previously) campaign-specific spells have been included and updated in the SC, thus rendering your points moot.


Having the potential to cast all divine spells doens't insure that an Archivist can.  he can't use Exalted spells, he can't use Vile spells without the underlying qualifications.  And he can't use Initiate spells because the spells check for the qualifier, and he won't have it.  It doens't matter if they are on a list or not.



That they need to be on a list was your point. They are, so that point is moot.

The restriction on Deity-specifc spells applies exclusively to clerics, who should not (note: its a recommendation only) be allowed to cast such spells, see PGtF, p. 79. This - by RAW - does not apply to Archivists. You may choose to house-rule it, though.
They only get added to your list with the feat. So the point stands.  he can't add them to his list wihtout the feat...it's just how it works.

Why is this even an issue?

Now, if the spells can now be taken as normal spells, that's a totally seperate fact, and irrelevant to the initial discussion.  You are ignoring the fact that the SPELLS have qualifiers, and nothing in the Archivist abilities lets him get around that.  If the SIC removed those qualifers (i.e. requiring the feats), then that's a seperate fact.

And still doesn't get around campaign specifics.  IF a campaign says X spell is only availabe to clerics of Mystra in the FR, and then X spell pops up in the general spell list, that doesn't obviate the former ruling...it's just a quirk of the setting, and still applies.  A later campaign=specific book can change the ruling, however.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
They only get added to your list with the feat. So the point stands.  he can't add them to his list wihtout the feat...it's just how it works.



Is it a divine spell? Yes. Then it's on his list.

The rules you are referring to apply to clerics. They represent ways to get these spells on a PC's cleric spell list. Archivists work entirely differently.


And still doesn't get around campaign specifics.  IF a campaign says X spell is only availabe to clerics of Mystra in the FR, and then X spell pops up in the general spell list, that doesn't obviate the former ruling...it's just a quirk of the setting, and still applies.  A later campaign=specific book can change the ruling, however.



Again: the (campaign-specific) rules don't say what you claim. You claim they say things like: "X spell is only availabe to clerics of Mystra in the FR". The actual rules say: "If you use initiate feats in your game, you should not allow clerics without the appropriate initiate feat to cast those spells." The differences are massive: (1) the actual RAW restricts their use only FOR clerics, while your misrepresentation of the RAW restricts it TO clerics. (2) The "restriction" is merely a recommendation. (3) the rules refer to deity-specific spells as spells that "only specific deitys grant". With SC, several of these spells are now available to all clerics and are thus - by RAW definition - no longer diety-specific, so even the PGtF recommendation for these spells is moot, much as your argument.