Rust Monsters and MYREs

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I originally assumed that people were just joking about using Rust Monsters in MYREs to sell items for 100% value but apparently they are actually doing it. This destroys the gold curve along with any semblance of balance. This needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
I originally assumed that people were just joking about using Rust Monsters in MYREs to sell items for 100% value but apparently they are actually doing it. This destroys the gold curve along with any semblance of balance. This needs to be addressed as soon as possible.


I don't think there's much to be done, although it's obviously against the spirit of the game. You could run a MYRE that gives max gold and consists of 1 encounter with 1 minion in it, which would have the same effect.

Which is not to say it doesn't suck, because it does, but there are always going to be people who push the letter of the rules to the limit. Short of getting rid of MYREs and returning to the old days of ARs and online recording and such... 

Well, the PTB could house-rule rust monsters out of the game (prohibit them from being used in mods) or prohibit them from being used in MYRE mods.

I don't know how much of a problem it really is at the moment (I haven't seen or heard of it being done, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening).

It does bring up an interesting question though: I have been toying with the idea of writing a no-combat or combat optional MYRE module. Provided that I supported any XP granted with quest rewards (within the usual limits) or skill challenges (suitably customized so that I can stomach using them), do people think that would be outside the spirit of MYRE adventures?
It does bring up an interesting question though: I have been toying with the idea of writing a no-combat or combat optional MYRE module. Provided that I supported any XP granted with quest rewards (within the usual limits) or skill challenges (suitably customized so that I can stomach using them), do people think that would be outside the spirit of MYRE adventures?


It's a matter of intent, really. If the intent is to provide risk-free gold or XP, I'd make a frowny face. If the intent is to do heavy roleplay MYREs, I'd be all for it. My instinctive reaction is "sounds cool!"

It does bring up an interesting question though: I have been toying with the idea of writing a no-combat or combat optional MYRE module. Provided that I supported any XP granted with quest rewards (within the usual limits) or skill challenges (suitably customized so that I can stomach using them), do people think that would be outside the spirit of MYRE adventures?


It's a matter of intent, really. If the intent is to provide risk-free gold or XP, I'd make a frowny face. If the intent is to do heavy roleplay MYREs, I'd be all for it. My instinctive reaction is "sounds cool!"




My intent would not be so much to do "roleplay" heavy MYREs, but rather to tell stories that potentially work best without combat--or at least if there is the potential to avoid combat. To do a probably inexact analogy: if you are going to do a heist, in most D&D games, you're working with Heat or the Joker's bank robbery in Dark Knight as your model. The idea that I am toying with would be to make Ocean's 11 a viable alternative. It is customary on message boards for people to call that "roleplaying" but it doesn't necessarily have any more role-playing in it than the combat mod. (To use another film example, Pulp Fiction and Reservior Dogs have a lot more violence than Ocean's 11, but the characters are not any less developed or interesting. Or for a CRPG example, it is no less roleplaying when I decide to slaughter the sand people in Knights of the Old Republic than it is if I were to complete the negotiations and fetch their water).
How could you use a rust monster to sell items for 100%? Afterall, you cannot leave a MYRE adventure with more earned gold then after an ordinary adventure. Now, as long as you don't pass that treasure cap, I suspose it is possible...

As for a MYRE consisting of no combats, and just skill challenges and quest xp, there is no rule against it. As long as the players are having fun, and are facing a challenge (and risk of failure), it should be fine.

How could you use a rust monster to sell items for 100%? Afterall, you cannot leave a MYRE adventure with more earned gold then after an ordinary adventure. Now, as long as you don't pass that treasure cap, I suspose it is possible...

As for a MYRE consisting of no combats, and just skill challenges and quest xp, there is no rule against it. As long as the players are having fun, and are facing a challenge (and risk of failure), it should be fine.




But selling magic items you own before the mod starts is completely separate from module rewards.
Somewhat recently (compared to the duration of my gaming life), I came to the conclusion that cheating by other players does not hurt me or my enjoyment of the game.  And yes, even if the rules do no explicitly state that using a MYRE adventure for the sole purpose of converting magic items at full cost is cheating, any player doing is fully aware that it is an act of cheating and any debat to the contrary is purely devil's advocacy.

Still, it doesn't hurt my play experience.  A few dishonest players get a brief mechanical benefit (and I emphasize that due to rate at which magic item costs increase, the benefit lasts only a few levels at most) doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game.  If those players only enjoy a game that has minimal challenge because they are breaking the rules, so be it.  I question why they even play the game, but who am I to judge?

The absolute worst case scenario is that I end up in an adventure with that character playing.  If, after asking nicely for those players not to dominate the game with their overclocked characters, they still refuse, I will not play with them in the future.  If I am lucky, the DM will consider their refusal to cooperate with a reasonable request as grounds for sanction and let them know they are unwelcome in future games.

But, no matter the final situation, I really don't care if other people cheat in this manner.  They could just as easily fabricate a log sheet and make an Xth level character with almost any equipment.  There is little use to trying to rein in any form of cheating, except to make it clear to the cheaters that they are unwelcome in the future.

-SYB
How could you use a rust monster to sell items for 100%? Afterall, you cannot leave a MYRE adventure with more earned gold then after an ordinary adventure. Now, as long as you don't pass that treasure cap, I suspose it is possible...



As an example, you're a 10th level character with +3 Plate
Rust Monster eats it.
You kill the Rust Monster.
The +3 plate turns into residuum.

Note that I'm not saying that this is a MYRE...

In a non-MYRE, if the 10th level character can't make that residuum into either say +3 Plate or something else and loses it due to cap, that makes Rust Monsters much more powerful than they are supposed to be. Rust Monsters being what they are and due to what they do, are probably going to be extremely rare. That they get to disintegrate a magic item ought to be rare, too.

In a MYRE however, the action can be deliberate, especially when people are deliberately cheating.

It probably should have the simple rule that at the end of an adventure, any item turned into Residuum can be changed back into what it was for free. i.e. sucks at the time in the mod, but no permanent effect. 
How could you use a rust monster to sell items for 100%? Afterall, you cannot leave a MYRE adventure with more earned gold then after an ordinary adventure. Now, as long as you don't pass that treasure cap, I suspose it is possible...

As for a MYRE consisting of no combats, and just skill challenges and quest xp, there is no rule against it. As long as the players are having fun, and are facing a challenge (and risk of failure), it should be fine.




But selling magic items you own before the mod starts is completely separate from module rewards.



Well, technically speaking you are generating wealth.
Call me stupid but I don't understand it unless you can sell residium for full prize you would gain nothing. 

I looked through the LFR CCG and found no mention of selling residium, afb so no sure about the core rules though? 
Call me stupid but I don't understand it unless you can sell residium for full prize you would gain nothing. 

I looked through the LFR CCG and found no mention of selling residium, afb so no sure about the core rules though? 



Residuum has a value equal to the value of a magic item you could create with it per core rules. Some societies even use it in place of gold. In other words, if you have 5000 gold worth of residuum, you could sell it for 5000.

This generally works out because the only way you get residuum is by destroying magic items via the disenchant ritual, which only gives 20% of the value. Rust Monsters are a special exception.
Scrolls of Enchant Magic Item are also relatively cheap, so you can purchase them and happily turn that +3 Plate worth of Residium into different magic items easily enough, or have a Ritual Caster do it for you for free within the LFR rules.

And really- why do we care about this?

Sure in 3E this might have been a problem, but there are so few items in 4E that are noteworthy (and face it they tend to get "updated") that it doesn't seem like it is worth our time as a community to worry about a few people that think they are being clever by doing this.
Some societies even use it in place of gold. In other words, if you have 5000 gold worth of residuum, you could sell it for 5000.

This generally works out because the only way you get residuum is by destroying magic items via the disenchant ritual,

The PHB only says that you can't buy it at usual markets, but it doesn't say that you can't buy it (being able to buy it is also a direct side effect of societies using it as currency).

So while I am fine in LFR with not getting any residuum at the local farmer's market in Archendale, I do expect to be eventually able to buy it at the efreeti market quarter in the City of Brass or at some market in Corellon's astral domain.

Sure in 3E this might have been a problem, but there are so few items in 4E that are noteworthy (and face it they tend to get "updated") that it doesn't seem like it is worth our time as a community to worry about a few people that think they are being clever by doing this.



I don't agree with this at all. Items are still huge for many builds, especially the ability to get the exact weapon you want. Many of the choose "item level X or less" bundles are used by players this way. But, those tend to be rewards that are seen rarely, 2-3 times a year. Thus, it is fine and helps players get items they really want. A group abusing MYREs to get exactly what they want with rust monsters would basically be turning the bundle system into a way to choose the exact items they want all the time. That's a huge benefit.

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Sure in 3E this might have been a problem, but there are so few items in 4E that are noteworthy (and face it they tend to get "updated") that it doesn't seem like it is worth our time as a community to worry about a few people that think they are being clever by doing this.



I don't agree with this at all. Items are still huge for many builds, especially the ability to get the exact weapon you want. Many of the choose "item level X or less" bundles are used by players this way. But, those tend to be rewards that are seen rarely, 2-3 times a year. Thus, it is fine and helps players get items they really want. A group abusing MYREs to get exactly what they want with rust monsters would basically be turning the bundle system into a way to choose the exact items they want all the time. That's a huge benefit.




I don't see what else you would do with a "get item of level X or less." Maybe get one that you don't want?

As for the abusers, I would think that the issue is not that they are getting items that they really want--that is already possible (by taking a high-level bundle or two, selling it, and buying the exact item that you want). And, unless they are breaking other rules, rust monster abuse does not help them do that any earlier--they can still only buy or create items of their level or lower. What it does do is allow them to use it to get many more items that are exactly what they want. Rather than turning a level 13 item into a vanguard weapon, the rust monster trick would enable them to turn it into a vanguard weapon... and 4 other level 8 items of the player's choice. Selling bundles to buy items of your choice is horribly inefficient. Rust monstering bundles, on the other hand, is potentially even more efficient than getting the item you want in a bundle. That is a problem.

I agree that it's a benefit and that the loophole should probably be closed. (Even if no-one is abusing it which may not be the case). Any of the following rules would do the trick: a blanket "no rust monsters in MYREs", "No Rust Monsters in LFR", or "Items destroyed by a rust monster (or any other means of reducing an item to residuum with greater than 20% efficiency) are automatically fixed at the end of the mod--and if any of the residuum was spent in the mean-time, the value of said residuum must be deducted from the owner's gold; in no case can the expenditure of residuum from a greater than 20% efficient item to residuum conversion add permanent benefits to a PC."
The Globals are going to discuss this during next week's meeting and get back to you.
Umm..... None of you people did not see this coming?

You guys like to blame the players alot...

Honestly, the first question that should have been asked is:

Why did WOTC, RPGA, et al. allow the Rust Monster with that particular power be created and allowed in 4th ed.?

Sometimes I read alot of these posts and I swear that if everyone was given a stick to fight with, some of you would cry overpowered when some of the players sharpened their stick to fight with and cry broken if other players attached a heavy rock to the end of the stick.

Aribeth
Umm..... None of you people did not see this coming?

You guys like to blame the players alot...

Honestly, the first question that should have been asked is:

Why did WOTC, RPGA, et al. allow the Rust Monster with that particular power be created and allowed in 4th ed.?

Sometimes I read alot of these posts and I swear that if everyone was given a stick to fight with, some of you would cry overpowered when some of the players sharpened their stick to fight with and cry broken if other players attached a heavy rock to the end of the stick.

Aribeth

Because the interaction is fine in a home game - if a Rust Monster eats your stuff, you get residuum equal to the value of the stuff you lost.  This is only an issue in LFR because of the way it distributes treasure.  Wizards can't limit the monsters they create just for LFR.

OK...

But the RPGA can by adding a rule within their CCG...

LFR is just another campaign akin to all the existing home campaigns with their own "house" rules.

But that doesnt answer the question of why have that monster with that particular power introduced at all.  It basically tattooes a sign on it's forehead say PLEASE ABUSE THIS POWER.

If you were running a home campaign and did a lot of work in balancing your campaign's economy, would you put a rust monster in an encounter that you create to mess up the economy you spent time trying to balance?

But that doesnt answer the question of why have that monster with that particular power introduced at all.  It basically tattooes a sign on it's forehead say PLEASE ABUSE THIS POWER.



Cause they're trusting us, which I kind of like. MYREs are inherently abusable in any case; the rust monster thing is just an extreme example of how you can abuse them. The RPGA decided that giving us the flexibility to create our own adventures in the campaign was worth the risk of people abusing them.

But that doesnt answer the question of why have that monster with that particular power introduced at all.  It basically tattooes a sign on it's forehead say PLEASE ABUSE THIS POWER.

If you were running a home campaign and did a lot of work in balancing your campaign's economy, would you put a rust monster in an encounter that you create to mess up the economy you spent time trying to balance?



This isn't a regular home game at all. It is a shared world involving a myriad of authors, let alone the MYRE system (Created to please players' request for creative outlets without being formal authors). Let's distinguish between the effect of hundreds+ fans that can find all the issues and the limited actual resources working on the game. If you really want to have the resources to find all the possible issues then I suggest the next living campaign be "Living Petroleum" and involve several megacorps.

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A simple rule could be that residuum from a rust monster can, in LFR, only be used to reforge the item you lost.
Umm..... None of you people did not see this coming?


I hear this a lot whenever designers, developers, editors and administrators miss something. I wonder whether these people know how much work goes into a product, and us being human, there always being a chance things are missed/overlooked.

You guys like to blame the players alot...


Players and DMs are just as responsible for a fun game, if not more so, then the designer and developers of said game.

In this particular case it is about trust, and people twisting the litteral rule with the spirit of the rule (not getting more wealth out of an adventure then by the standard guidelines). It is also a question about balancing the need for rules, the ability to check and how much those rules inhibit the fun of the majority of players. Organized play has loosened a lot of rules since ultimately this is just a game, and we are not in the business of telling others how to have fun.

Honestly, the first question that should have been asked is:
Why did WOTC, RPGA, et al. allow the Rust Monster with that particular power be created and allowed in 4th ed.?


LFR is not a home campaign, and while things work out fine under most circumstances, this is a typical example of where the two differ.
I don't see a problem with this.

A couple players at a gameday asked me if I could run a paragon MYRE for them with Rust Monsters. I was perfectly fine with that as long as they understand that they might be challenged they got a game.


So after nearly TPKing the party, killing 3 players twice in the same encounter and everyone suffering the Death Penalty, they got what they wanted in the end thanks to their Artificer friend.


I mean, if you think MYREs with rust monsters break the game, then you also have to agree that Rewards Cards do the same thing.
I mean, if you think MYREs with rust monsters break the game, then you also have to agree that Rewards Cards do the same thing.



Why on earth would you have to think that? I don't like the rewards cards and think they distort the game. Using rust monsters to get 5 times as much cash as usual when recycling old equipment or transforming high level but useless treasure bundles into items of your choice distorts the game far far more IMO.
Well, that's what Rust Monsters, especially high paragon and epic versions, do. They eat magic. If players want to play MYREs with rust monsters, that's perfectly fine. They want to get specific items of their choice and not be limited to mod bundles. They want to individualize their character to their liking.

They might feel dirty doing it, but they are allowed to. They are still limited to items their level or lower, unless there is an Artificer in the party.

And rewards cards can make or break a game. If players roll poorly on skill challenges, they can easily That'll Do and they beat the DC, or give someone a +1.
If players want to play MYREs with rust monsters, that's perfectly fine.

As long as they don't sell items they already have for 5x the allowed valued.
They want to get specific items of their choice and not be limited to mod bundles.

Perfectly fine if they want to get new items that way, it's also possible in some non-MYREs. It's not fine if they get rid of items already in their possession in ways that are not possible otherwise.
They might feel dirty doing it, but they are allowed to.

Actually it's arguable whether they're allowed to do that. That they would only be allowed to carry away residiuum (or permanent benefits from use of this residuum) equal to 20% of the destroyed item's value is also a valid interpretation of the CCG.

So if you let your 1.8k level 6 item get eaten by a rust monster, you can only carry 360 gold away after the adventure. So you could not create a new weapon from the full residuum and carry it out the adventure. Use the excess 1.44k to cast rituals or bribe someone, but after the mod is finished it's gone

Actually it's arguable whether they're allowed to do that. That they would only be allowed to carry away residiuum (or permanent benefits from use of this residuum) equal to 20% of the destroyed item's value is also a valid interpretation of the CCG.



Where in the CCG does it say that?
It blows my mind that anyone, DM or player, would think this was a valid thing to do in a MYRE. Really? Put in a rust monster and come out ahead and that should be ok? Really?

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It blows my mind that anyone, DM or player, would think this was a valid thing to do in a MYRE. Really? Put in a rust monster and come out ahead and that should be ok? Really?

Used to blow my mind as well, but starting to see it as par for the course. 
I am trying to be a bigger person and ignore it while chanting mantra's of "it doesn't bother me". That is not completely working yet but I have gotten far enough that I can mostly shrug it off as an illustration of the lengths some people feel they need to go to to stay 'special'.
I figure if that is what they need to have fun then I will have to learn to have it not ruin mine.
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
I'm still not persuaded there is really a problem here, and I'm one of those crazy people that will select higher level items to sell so they can buy what they want (and given I just did this with a Wizard who can Enchant Items).

*shrug* The balance of 4E items is (by and large) such that I'm still not really seeing the problem (excepting in the case of Artificiers.. there I see the problem in this case).
The issue with sing Rust monsters is NOT that someone might be able to get somthing they would not normally be able to get.

You can't. It doesn't alter the rules on access at all.

What it DOES do is skew the game economy a bit.

Normally, a character eventually out-grows old magic items, either they get newer shinier replacements for the slot or the item just isn't effective at their level anymore.

The system assumes you either just sell/disenchant the old item for cash, or perhaps just store it away somewhere. You lose most of the gold value of the item in either case. It's a resource sink, effectively.

Using Rust monsters, you remove that resource sink from the system. Characters will end up with more gold than expected, which can skew their power level.

That said, I don't think this will make THAT much of a difference. I'm not sure it's worth worrying about.

Most times what makes or breaks a game isn't what magic items the characters have, but how smart and tactical the players are.


-karma

LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard | Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard | Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric

AL Character: Talia Ko'bori Silverwane - Tiefling Tome Fiend Warlock

Wait until you play with someone who has a Bloodiron Weapon +4 and two War Rings while you scrounged and vendored three different item slots just to get your +3 Black Iron armor.

Rust Monster MYREs destroy the item/money balance in the game.
Normally, a character eventually out-grows old magic items, either they get newer shinier replacements for the slot or the item just isn't effective at their level anymore.

I can't say I condone this kind of behavior, but here's the devil's advocate view:

In a core game, a character does out-grow old magic items, yes, but they don't usually sell them, they pass them to someone else in the group.  With the large number of item slots and the fact that most magic items are going to be taking care of upgrades to the big three, someone probably has that slot open or can use a backup weapon/implement.

In a core rules game, PC A finds 10th level boots he likes, so he passes on his 5th level boots to PC B.  PC B finds 10th level gloves he prefers, so he passes on his 5th level gloves to PC C.  So, as a whole, the group now has two 10th level items and two 5th level items.

In LFR, PC A and B find 10th level items they like.  They can't pass on their 5th level items, so they find a friendly rust monster, tempt it with their magic items until he bites, cut him open and use the residuum to each make a 5th level item they prefer.

As a result, this LFR group as a whole ends up with two 10th level items and two 5th level items, the same as the core rules group.

Rust monsters are a way of turning low-level items you don't want any more until other low-level items you do.  You could say that a core rules game already has a mechanism to accomplish that--trading amongst players--so the MYRE method is just coming with an alternate solution to accomplish the same ends.

Still, there is a stink of DM/player collusion to go against the spirit of the rules that I dislike about this system, and it does obviously provide the player with a slight advantage over core, but I don't think that the potential for disrupting the game economy is that severe.
Wait until you play with someone who has a Bloodiron Weapon +4 and two War Rings while you scrounged and vendored three different item slots just to get your +3 Black Iron armor.

Rust Monster MYREs destroy the item/money balance in the game.

A situation only achievable with an Master Crafter Artificer. If they can only craft items of level or lower then there is no real advantage to doing it.

Keep in mind rust monsters don't eat everything magical, they just eat Weapons/Implements and Armour (at high enough level).

So someone needs to have enough magic items of the right types, to have them all disenchanted by the Rust Monster and then they still need an Artificer with the Master Crafter feat to make something above their level.

Remember to make a level 10 item it takes 2 level 9 items or 3 level 8, etc.. So where are they getting all these weapons, implements and armour from that are being disenchanted to create these uber items while still having items left at the end to fill the vacant slots?

I'm more worried that people are blatantly cheating and allowing the rust monster to do something it doesn't than that they are somehow abusing the rust monster.
A situation only achievable with an Master Crafter Artificer. If they can only craft items of level or lower then there is no real advantage to doing it.

There is the huge advantage of being able to affort to craft the item of your level which you couldn't affort otherwise.
Remember to make a level 10 item it takes 2 level 9 items or 3 level 8, etc.. So where are they getting all these weapons, implements and armour from that are being disenchanted to create these uber items while still having items left at the end to fill the vacant slots?

It takes 2 level 9 items with 3,400gp left over for someone who abuses rust monsters. It takes 6 level 9 items with 40gp left over for someone who don't.

E.g. I have 3 level 6 items. I could turn them into a single single level 5 item with 60gp left over without a rust monster or I could turn them into a single level 10 item with 400gp left over by feeding them to a rust monster.

My experience with items in a home campaign is different. Virtually all items are sold after about 5 to 10 levels of use (with 10 being rare and reserved mostly for those truly useful items). Armor, implements, neck slot items and weapons are either sold within 5 levels of use without being passsed on or upgraded. Even if these items are passed to the next PC, they are sold within 5 levels of being found. The exception can be basic weapon enchantments that might be passed to a secondary weapon, most likely a javelin or dagger to serve as a backup ranged weapon. Still, 5 levels later that weapon is sold as well and that is assuming it is an enchantment that can be placed on a range weapon. Generic items might be kept longer, but in many cases their use is specialized and handing them over to the next PC has no meaning or that character has another item that is more useful even though it is a lower level item. For example, in my campaign the rogue found longthrower gloves, useful for him since he loves to throw daggers, no other PC in the group is to ever find it useful.

There is currently two level 18 items floating around in various modules. Feeding those to a rust monster gives more than enough cash to get whatever you could want .
There is currently two level 18 items floating around in various modules. Feeding those to a rust monster gives more than enough cash to get whatever you could want .



Of course, a normal rust monster can't eat them, even if they are the right kind of item....
Yeah, looks like Rust Monsters can only eat level 10 and below metal items.
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