Interim Rules Update Policy for LFR

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Until the new version of the Character Creation Guide is released, please see the LFR blog post concerning an interim update policy for Living Forgotten Realms. 
Chris Tulach D&D Program Manager Wizards of the Coast http://community.wizards.com/wotc_tulach http://twitter.com/christulach

Thanks!


I have one stupid nitpicky question. "If the found magic item has an enhancement bonus (armor, implement, neck slot, or weapon items), the player can choose to convert the item into a +X magic item, where X is the current enhancement bonus of the item, instead of selling it or keeping it."


Does that mean I can convert a +3 magic sword into a +3 implement? My assumption would be no, and that's how I'd play it if I ever needed to use this, but I imagine people are going to ask.

...the player can choose to convert the item into a +X magic item



I'm not entirely sure whether this is intended to mean "any magic item with a +X bonus" or "an item with the +X and magic properties".  E.g., can a +3 bloodclaw weapon be turned into any +3 magic item or just a +3 magic item.

By and large, I like these rules, though I'm a little surprised at the different treatment of found/purchased items.  A PC who took a healer's sash from a module is completely SOL, but one who purchased one can put themselves back in the same position as they were prior to the purchase.

You're oddly better off if your magic item is only indirectly affected.  If a feat, power or something else that indirectly affects a found magic item is changed, you can trade it in for one of equal or lower level.  If it's directly affected, though, you're out of luck.

I can understand the desire to not over-reward those who might have a lower-level item that they can trade in to get a free found item slot (whereas trading it in for a small amount of gold isn't a problem), but I'd suggest considering for the final version to give players the option of trading in a found item for another item of equal or lower level, in the same way they could if the item was indirectly affected.

Yes, it might give them more than they deserve, but I tend to think that bending over backwards to avoid punishing people who chose bundles campaign staff affirmatively thought were appropriate for the campaign is preferable to not going far enough.

The other changes seem to be going for a "we'll trust you to make only the changes that are strictly necessary, and we're willing to risk someone taking it too far" tone, while the found item rule appears to show more of a "eh, tough luck" mindset.
This update seems to be quite consistent with what I've been told are the two unofficial cardinal General Rules of the RPGA - have fun playing D&D; don't be a jerk - and is far better than anything I would have spontaneously generated on my own. Kudos for a job well done.

That said, a clarification you would convert a +X Updated weapon to a generic +X weapon of the same type would probably be in line (although I'm guessing the new CCG-or-whatever-it-will-be-renamed will utilize italics for clarity).
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I personally think the rules are too liberal when it comes to this rule: "If there is no legal item with the same enchantment then you may instead choose a new, legal item of the appropriate type whose item level is less than or equal to the item level of your old item"
I feel that is too powerful and also a bit overcomplicated.
I personally like to see this brought in line with the earlier rules on changing equipment. Im short make 'items that are changed and ' and 'items invalidated by changing of a class feature, feat, power, or paragon path' similar, and let them use the same rules (and add the transfer enchantment ritual used to the option for generic items that were changed).

Gomez
...the player can choose to convert the item into a +X magic item



I'm not entirely sure whether this is intended to mean "any magic item with a +X bonus" or "an item with the +X and magic properties".  E.g., can a +3 bloodclaw weapon be turned into any +3 magic item or just a +3 magic item.




I think the intent is quite clear that it's a generic +X magic item.

I am glad to see this post from Chris. It's been a while coming, but it appears to be a pretty fair and equitable solution. I am somewhat baffled by the decision to leave found magic items with no compensation, given how precious slots are. The only real loser here, though, is people who've taken Healer's Sash, which is a completely different item. Most of the other items that have been hit are either +X items which can be vanillised if desired, or have not appeared yet as bundle choices.
From what I understood it during the discussions it means: a +3 bloodclaw weapon can be exchanged for a +3 weapon (and not another +3 enchantment X weapon). Note that in regards to treasure bundles it is a bit harder to deal with. After all, simply removing it grants players that picked an errated item a rather strong benefit compared to ones that just accidently picked a wrong item. Note though that as Chris said, there are going to be more detailed and better worded policies in the new creation rules.
From what I understood it during the discussions it means: a +3 bloodclaw weapon can be exchanged for a +3 weapon (and not another +3 weapon). Note that in regards to treasure bundles it is a bit harder to deal with. After all, simply removing it grants players that picked an errated item a rather strong benefit compared to ones that just accidently picked a wrong item. Note though that as Chris said, there are going to be more detailed and better worded policies in the new creation rules.


Thanks, that's very helpful. I'll play it that way if it ever comes up.

I am somewhat baffled by the decision to leave found magic items with no compensation, given how precious slots are.



Are they really that precious?  Maybe it's just me but with the (sizeable) group I play LFR with I don't know anyone that is short on slots.  I sometimes hear "Man I wish I had an open slot!" when playing 1-4 band mods with 1st and 2nd level characters, but I never hear that at higher tiers.  Unless there's a lot of people out there blowing slots to sell items for gp that I just haven't met.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Maybe it's just me but with the (sizeable) group I play LFR with I don't know anyone that is short on slots.



Yeah, it's another one of those problems that seemed theoretically bad before we started playing, but just hasn't come up, in my world as well.
Maybe it's just me but with the (sizeable) group I play LFR with I don't know anyone that is short on slots.



Yeah, it's another one of those problems that seemed theoretically bad before we started playing, but just hasn't come up, in my world as well.



Part of that is because people clued into the loot system early and don't generally waste found item slots on +1 items. If everyone is running around with a +2 magic/vicious/resounding weapon, +2 dwarven armor, and a +2 amulet of protection by level 3 or so, they don't need to spend another slot upgrading those until they start hitting +3s. If people do as the new modules seem to think they will (not that I've actually seen many people do it) and take +1 frost, +1 vengeful, etc weapons as bundles, I think you'll see a lot more people running short found item slots.

Part of that is because people clued into the loot system early and don't generally waste found item slots on +1 items. If everyone is running around with a +2 magic/vicious/resounding weapon, +2 dwarven armor, and a +2 amulet of protection by level 3 or so, they don't need to spend another slot upgrading those until they start hitting +3s. If people do as the new modules seem to think they will (not that I've actually seen many people do it) and take +1 frost, +1 vengeful, etc weapons as bundles, I think you'll see a lot more people running short found item slots.


I do see this in practice, FWIW. I've been running a new game day for the last five months or so and the typical reaction to a +1 weapon is "cool, I want it." I know experienced groups may not do as much of this, but they're not all that's out there by any means. 

Edit: of course, the players who aren't sweating the plusses are also probably less likely to be worried about the updates, so it's sort of a moot point there.

Fake edit: my sorcerer's first four items were +2 armor, +2 weapon, +2 neck, and reading spectacles. It is completely possible that I have no business anywhere near this debate, since I clearly have no idea how to come down on one side of the fence or the other. ;)


Part of that is because people clued into the loot system early and don't generally waste found item slots on +1 items. If everyone is running around with a +2 magic/vicious/resounding weapon, +2 dwarven armor, and a +2 amulet of protection by level 3 or so, they don't need to spend another slot upgrading those until they start hitting +3s. If people do as the new modules seem to think they will (not that I've actually seen many people do it) and take +1 frost, +1 vengeful, etc weapons as bundles, I think you'll see a lot more people running short found item slots.


I do see this in practice, FWIW. I've been running a new game day for the last five months or so and the typical reaction to a +1 weapon is "cool, I want it." I know experienced groups may not do as much of this, but they're not all that's out there by any means. 

Edit: of course, the players who aren't sweating the plusses are also probably less likely to be worried about the updates, so it's sort of a moot point there.

Fake edit: my sorcerer's first four items were +2 armor, +2 weapon, +2 neck, and reading spectacles. It is completely possible that I have no business anywhere near this debate, since I clearly have no idea how to come down on one side of the fence or the other. ;)





There are a few mods that give out +2 Magic Weapon/Armor which are potentially much more valuable than a +2 Flaming or other named item.  The +2 Magic can be upgraded to whatever 7/8/9/10th level item you want at considerable savings compared to selling a +2 Flaming and buying the desired item.
I just hope that the next iteration includes guidelines for those players who already fixed their characters using rules harsher than whatever the final rules turn out to be.  I know a guy who spent a level retrain to fix an issue introduced by errata.  Now he's wondering if he'll get to retroactively spend that retrain on something else instead.
"When any class feature, feat, power, or paragon path is changed by an official update, affected characters receive free retraining in order to make the necessary changes. "


Does this include monthly changes when the compendium is updated? 


What about attribute rebuilds-especially for MAD builds that were using the urgosh, 
or avengers that had 13 Str for hide. Thats an extra point of wisdom or possibly 2 of a
secondary stat.

Or Fighters with 13 Dex for Deft Hurler.

Or 15 Wisdom for the old Hero of Faith.

So if you built your character with those stats to get some feat you are no longer
happy with can you retrain your attributes as well?

 

 


I just hope that the next iteration includes guidelines for those players who already fixed their characters using rules harsher than whatever the final rules turn out to be.  I know a guy who spent a level retrain to fix an issue introduced by errata.  Now he's wondering if he'll get to retroactively spend that retrain on something else instead.



I don't see why not.  It took a month for there to be any word about what to do.  The last thing that should happen is for the people who followed the rules in that time to be punished for it.
Maybe it's just me but with the (sizeable) group I play LFR with I don't know anyone that is short on slots.



Yeah, it's another one of those problems that seemed theoretically bad before we started playing, but just hasn't come up, in my world as well.



Part of that is because people clued into the loot system early and don't generally waste found item slots on +1 items. If everyone is running around with a +2 magic/vicious/resounding weapon, +2 dwarven armor, and a +2 amulet of protection by level 3 or so, they don't need to spend another slot upgrading those until they start hitting +3s. If people do as the new modules seem to think they will (not that I've actually seen many people do it) and take +1 frost, +1 vengeful, etc weapons as bundles, I think you'll see a lot more people running short found item slots.



Well, quite. No-one round my way takes any +1 treasure unless the enchantment is superb (I picked up a goblin totem dagger +1 when I found it for my halfling sorcerer, since it's not from a player resource, so the only way to get that enchantment is as a bundle). This means that it's very rare I see anyone taking magic items from 1-4 adventures any more, since the policy now seems to be not to provide +2 items any more.

Then no-one takes any +2 treasure in 7-10 mods, as they're holding out for +3 treasure, since there have been one or two examples in 1-3 versions.

But that's precisely my point. Slots are precious, and people are loathe to spend them on +1 items, or something that seems fun but not too powerful, because they're saving them for high level, powerful items. No, I have no characters that are out of slots, but that's because I'm conservative and don't necessarily take every item that I would like.

Anyway, the point is somewhat moot, since it's only really the healer's sash that I think will really upset anyone (and only that because it cropped up in a 7-10 mod somewhere). But if this is the policy forever, it will certainly encourage caveat emptor. And then people will be even less likely to take interesting bundle choices, in case it gets nerfed.
There are a few mods that give out +2 Magic Weapon/Armor which are potentially much more valuable than a +2 Flaming or other named item.  The +2 Magic can be upgraded to whatever 7/8/9/10th level item you want at considerable savings compared to selling a +2 Flaming and buying the desired item.



I always found this line of thought interesting. IME, by the time you're high enough level and have enough cash to upgrade your vanilla +2 to your choice of item, you'll be on the lookout for +3 items anyway.
I always found this line of thought interesting. IME, by the time you're high enough level and have enough cash to upgrade your vanilla +2 to your choice of item, you'll be on the lookout for +3 items anyway.



It depends on whether you want a +3 item with properties that mesh with your PC or just any old +3 item.  I tend to think that a +1 enhancement bonus jump is small enough that it's worth not jumping on the first +3 item to come along.

Also, keep in mind that, money permitting, you can upgrade your vanilla +2 item to whatever you want at 7th level, just by playing with a PC of the appropriate level and picking up an Enchant Magic Item scroll.  You can then wait until a P1 module to move up to +3, when the selection is better.

Part of that is because people clued into the loot system early and don't generally waste found item slots on +1 items. If everyone is running around with a +2 magic/vicious/resounding weapon, +2 dwarven armor, and a +2 amulet of protection by level 3 or so, they don't need to spend another slot upgrading those until they start hitting +3s. If people do as the new modules seem to think they will (not that I've actually seen many people do it) and take +1 frost, +1 vengeful, etc weapons as bundles, I think you'll see a lot more people running short found item slots.


I do see this in practice, FWIW. I've been running a new game day for the last five months or so and the typical reaction to a +1 weapon is "cool, I want it." I know experienced groups may not do as much of this, but they're not all that's out there by any means. 

Edit: of course, the players who aren't sweating the plusses are also probably less likely to be worried about the updates, so it's sort of a moot point there.

Fake edit: my sorcerer's first four items were +2 armor, +2 weapon, +2 neck, and reading spectacles. It is completely possible that I have no business anywhere near this debate, since I clearly have no idea how to come down on one side of the fence or the other. ;)




My Embers of Dawn sorc lucked out in that we had a mixed group that included some folks who had played WEEK1-4 with their Embers of Dawn PCs (at my suggestion...) .... With the XP rate of MINI-1-1 through 1-4, that means you have to play at least 2 to at low not level out before MINI1-6 (assuming MINI1-5 doesn't hand out any MORE experience, a seemingly safe bet). 

 So, I got myself a table of agla1-1 online to get the +2 implement i'd rather have, but the +1 luckblade was the first viable implement that I had access to with the character, and I don't have THAT many play opportunities for that character. (he's a little... odd. I try to keep his personality confined to a smaller group of potential victims)