Why is this taboo?

Why is it taboo to talk about the warning signs that seem to be pointing to SWM coming to an end sometime in 2010?  At a minimum I think the game could be looking at another long term hiatus.

I'll layout the facts and/or rumors as I see them, people can discuss them from there.

- It's been said the gaming license with Lucas will end sometime in 2010.

- The WotC Catalog does not show any Star Wars products (SWM or RPG) beyond April.  D&D and MTG are listed all the way through August.

- I spoke with an artist who has been doing SWM artwork for quite a while with WotC.  This person stated that they have not been commissioned to do work much beyond 2009.  Typically they are commisisoned about a year in advance.

- The SWM brand manager and the original lead designer leave within the same year (2009).  In turn SWM is given a new brand manager and lead designer, but both jobs appear secondary to their primary work with WotC (D&D).  Almost like figure heads filling a role.

- Custom maps are being sold to us by top designers (which I like) because WotC isn't interested in publishing or commissioning new ones.

- Everything revolving around SWM has been outsourced to it's fanbase.  DCI, Convention Support, Rule Support (although that's been in place for years), etc.

None of these are complaints, just observations that I and others have made over the last 6 months.  We all talk about it behind the scenes, but openly it's sort of taboo.  I can understand why, but at the same time it feels like a giant elephant in the room that everyone is trying to ignore.  Anyway, it's not my intent to promote doom and gloom for SWM or Saga Edition, but I think these are legitimate concerns.

Here is what I think is happening right now.  WotC is setting themselves up for an out.  If indeed the LFL licensing expires in 2010 I think WotC wants to put themselves in a position to walk away from that license without losing much money on the back end.  That being said, they may actually renew the contract with LFL, but I think that means that we will see the game take another long hiatus.  What it's really going to come down to is whether WotC thinks it's financially responsible to continue the licensing with LFL.  That doesn't imply that SWM or the RPG is losing money, but WotC has to ask this question, "Does it make sense as a company to continue these products at the current profit margins?"  That's where the big decision has to be made.

So that's my take.  I hope I'm wrong, but my resume tells me that I've been playing various games long enough to not be blindsided when the writing is right there on the wall for me to read.  I guess we'll see what happens.

Smile
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Because, more often than not, if creates a "sky is falling" mentality. It will discourage people from buying more stuff, even sell thier collections. I have heard rumors as well, but it really does little to think or discuss them unless it becomes publically known. If it happens, it happens. No point in dwelling on the negative unless we get direct confirmation.
Because, more often than not, if creates a "sky is falling" mentality. It will discourage people from buying more stuff, even sell thier collections. I have heard rumors as well, but it really does little to think or discuss them unless it becomes publically known. If it happens, it happens. No point in dwelling on the negative unless we get direct confirmation.

I understand that, but we do talk about it privately.  By the time we get confirmation it will be over and we will all say that we seen this coming a year ago.

It is a tough topic to discuss, but it's an interesting one that we are all wondering or worrying about.

Smile
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i don't know if its taboo but it just doesn't do much good to talk about it unless people have inside info that really sets the path of SWM in stone.

Some people think it is irresponsible gossip.  Others don't want anything negative said about the game, which they think could hurt the game or community.  I don't see any reason why people can't have a straightforward conversation about this without getting their undies in a bunch.  By all means, have the discussion.  People can make up their own minds about whether or not they think there are signs of the end of the game or not.  For those who don't like that kind of discussions, they don't have to read it.  Or if they do, they really aren't in any position to tell other people that they can't talk about it.  They can voice their opinion if they want, but I see no reason why it has to be a taboo subject.  
that and it scares new people to the forums and to the minis game who read it. That has been WOTC's goal to bring in new people to the game, and although the players who have been playing since the start still buy, they make more profit off of thhe people who just join the game and start trying to buy single boosters.
Assuming the Force Unleashed is going to get a new set when the game is released, which i strongly think they will, they couldn't very well add in the WotC catalog "The Force Unleashed 2, released October 2010" now could they? i would think it may give the game away if they did. I don't think there is any problem with the future of SW Minis, and frankly i think all this talk that people keep doing is only hurting the game, its almost as if you want the game to end.
Assuming the Force Unleashed is going to get a new set when the game is released, which i strongly think they will, they couldn't very well add in the WotC catalog "The Force Unleashed 2, released October 2010" now could they? i would think it may give the game away if they did. I don't think there is any problem with the future of SW Minis, and frankly i think all this talk that people keep doing is only hurting the game, its almost as if you want the game to end.



yeah they couldnt release it in the summer catalog anyway as it should come out in the fall. that and they are only bringing out 3 sets a year and they kind of clustered Dark times and Masters together.

'
also whos to say that WOTC wont Re-sign for their Star wars licensing? THe ROleplaying game isnt doing to bad and they have to have the license for that. And just because the D&D minis are their primary game doesnt mean that they will cut out star wars, dont forget star wars minis do better than axis and allies usualy so i would think they would cut that first.

I am not trying to be rude or mean in any way, i am just giving my opinon
Because, more often than not, if creates a "sky is falling" mentality. It will discourage people from buying more stuff, even sell thier collections. I have heard rumors as well, but it really does little to think or discuss them unless it becomes publically known. If it happens, it happens. No point in dwelling on the negative unless we get direct confirmation.

I understand that, but we do talk about it privately.  By the time we get confirmation it will be over and we will all say that we seen this coming a year ago.

It is a tough topic to discuss, but it's an interesting one that we are all wondering or worrying about.



Yes, I agree that the game is going be taking a hiatus as you say. Here is the sad thing. Sooner or later it's going to happen.How many years has swminis been out ,5 or 6 years ? What does this mean. Well not only no new sets, but what about sanctioned events, what about the support, And what about Wizos even having a website. Who knows. Certainly Booster packs and Starter sets will over time be super hard to get. New ones won't be able to buy the game.

 But you know what, the bottom line is that I'll still be playing this game for a long time. Take other board games like RISK, and Axis and Allies, and  Monopoly for that matter, People still play these games even though they don't strategically speaking have as much to offer. As it stands there are so many options (squads) we can use as opposed to say for ex RISK where you win by coming up through Australia or South Amer as a second option.  I'm saying that THE game of minis is such a well rounded game I find much  more challenging then Games such as RISK .

I guess my point is It will be a sad day when this happens, But I will always do my part to play and show new ones the game. It is inevitable that this will happen. Maybe something will change and "THE SKY WON"T FALL". Lets enjoy the great times while they are still Around,
Maybe if it gets talked about, It  might send a message to Wizis that it's profitable to renew the Liscense. We Don't know whats going on behind closed doors.
Maybe if it gets talked about, It  might send a message to Wizis that it's profitable to renew the Liscense. We Don't know whats going on behind closed doors.



that is true i never thought about it that way. it might show wizards that people want it to stay and are willing to play.
Maybe if it gets talked about, It  might send a message to Wizis that it's profitable to renew the Liscense. We Don't know whats going on behind closed doors.



No offense, but no amount of discussion is going to affect a high dollar amount business decision. Honestly, I would be more worried IF we were getting more sets in the summer and fall. Go the Decipher route and bleed us dry before they pull the plug.

And it is really just gossip. Those in the know won't be able to discuss it, and the rest is rumors and guesses. As it is, we will likely know when the fall catalog comes out.
Maybe if it gets talked about, It  might send a message to Wizis that it's profitable to renew the Liscense. We Don't know whats going on behind closed doors.



No offense, but no amount of discussion is going to affect a high dollar amount business decision. Honestly, I would be more worried IF we were getting more sets in the summer and fall. Go the Decipher route and bleed us dry before they pull the plug.

And it is really just gossip. Those in the know won't be able to discuss it, and the rest is rumors and guesses. As it is, we will likely know when the fall catalog comes out.


I agree with everything you say except when you say that no amount of discussion is going to affect a high dollar amount business decision. I believe that there is truth in the saying, "The squeeky wheel gets the oil", after all SW minis was created not because of WOTC's love of Star Wars. They knew there was money to be Made. If the TAlk was Loud enough and WOTC saw that it Meant money for their business, You better believe they would do whatever it would take. I do think that WOTC doesn't think there is money in the game.
I thought (since WOTC is owned by Hasbro) that Hasbro's renewal covered SWM?
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Assuming the Force Unleashed is going to get a new set when the game is released, which i strongly think they will, they couldn't very well add in the WotC catalog "The Force Unleashed 2, released October 2010" now could they? i would think it may give the game away if they did. I don't think there is any problem with the future of SW Minis, and frankly i think all this talk that people keep doing is only hurting the game, its almost as if you want the game to end.

I understand your point, but there are no Star Wars Saga Edition RPG products listed beyond April either.  Both games fall under the same license.

I don't want the game to fail, but there are some strang happenings going on right now that I would like to discuss with the people of this COMmunity.  I've grown to like a lot of people around here and I can honestly say that there is nobody that I dislike.  If we are at an end or going into a deep hibernation (hiatus) I want to discuss it with my online friends.

Smile

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I thought (since WOTC is owned by Hasbro) that Hasbro's renewal covered SWM?

I think the action figure or toy license is entirely separate from the gaming license.

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I sincerely hope that all your observations are just coincidences, Sparks.  But they sure are a bit coincidental to be coincidences, if you take my meaning.  I hope we have many more years of SWM.  But IF its days are numbered, I will continue to play and build squads.  And after a while I'll start putting into effect all the minor little erratas and character fixes that I've been thinking about for a while. 

In either case, my boys all love playing this game, and I can't wait to play it with them when they're ready to learn the full rules and strategies of this remarkable and deep game.  Viva la SWM!
As it is, we will likely know when the fall catalog comes out.

That will definitely be the biggest indicator.  I don't suspect there will be any sort of announcement that either game is ending.  There will simply just be a last set and/or RPG book, nothing more will be made or said of it.  As a company it's probably a bad idea to make such announcements as it will effect sales, unless the company is going out of business like Wizkids.

The biggest thing that I think about is this.  How do you morally promote or encourage a kid or a friend with limited resources to invest in this game knowing these things.  I couldn't do it, not unless they were interested in buying past sets.  I would have to tell them to wait a few months or perhaps a year before investing any serious amounts of money in the game.  I think there may be some concern that these types of threads (fact or rumor) hurt potential sales of the game.  That may be true to an extent, but a lot of us are talking about it at our gaming tables every time we play anyhow.  Word spreads just as fast that way too.  Besides, at this point WotC has probably already made a decision about the future of the LFL license.

If it's of any consequence I think AAM could be in trouble too.  I purchased a complete set of the newly released Early War the other day and it was really bad.  From a stylish point of view they have absolutely cut AAM to the bone.  Outside of a number on the card and on the bottom of the mini you can't even match up the figures anymore.  No pictures, no nationality, no online support, no checklist, the only thing you get is stats and a figure.  Imagine a generic Jedi without a faction label on the card or the mini, just some stats and a set number.  Man it's bad.
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I'm prepared for the day when this game finally ends. I know it'll come eventually, but I'm still not looking forward to it. I'm still buying stuff from each new set that comes out but I haven't had as much time or opportunity to play as often - which in itself is a bit depressing (I love to play the game!).

My wallet will certainly be grateful when that sad day comes, but the good thing is that the game itself is really a lot of fun to play. I have nearly every mini in my collection and with Galaxy at War, I've got about 200 minis that I still have left to try out. So I figure I'll still be playing long after the game is discontinued.

Personally, I'd rather not think about the game ending, and I'm not really up to date on all the goings on to make any kind of judgement in that regard. If I knew the game was ending, it wouldn't affect my decision to buy any forthcoming sets before the end date - I'd still buy it all.

Still, I hope the game continues cause there are still so many characters they haven't done yet.
If it's of any consequence I think AAM could be in trouble too.  I purchased a complete set of the newly released Early War the other day and it was really bad.  From a stylish point of view they have absolutely cut AAM to the bone.  Outside of a number on the card and on the bottom of the mini you can't even match up the figures anymore.  No pictures, no nationality, no online support, no checklist, the only thing you get is stats and a figure.  Imagine a generic Jedi without a faction label on the card or the mini, just some stats and a set number.  Man it's bad.



Yikes. I really, truly hope that SWM is dropped long before it gets to that point. It sounds horrible! I can't imagine what AAM's old timers must feel like.
I think your right sparks   I don't think they will say if it is the end.

I think dreamblade may have taught a lesson there.  The word came out if this set doesn't do well they would stop so nobody bought and it fell.

I do know that all the SW sets left have been moved up a month in being released so they feel like they are being pushed at us instead of being teased about when they will be released.

I feel there will be a small break over the summer but the fall catalog may be the indicator.  If the next set falls in line with the force unleashed II game rumor going around it may be held up until that is released so maybe even later.  Maybe Winter. 

As you said about A&A   the feeling is the same for me in the Heroscape game too.  They are reprinting old promos which i have been waiting for,  but they are also using old sculpts of D&D minis they let fall now and releasing D&D heroscape with no classic heroscape looks into the near future.

All the games are looking bleak to me,   Every game now doesn't have a check chart except A&A Naval which has a list on the side of box now.  The quality has dropped a lot.  I just don't know....

What i do know is I have enough and can play any of the games for as long as I live and not have to worry about using the same exact build twice.
Every move in this game is a mistake, the hope is that your opponent makes a bigger mistake when he makes his move.
The biggest thing that I think about is this.  How do you morally promote or encourage a kid or a friend with limited resources to invest in this game knowing these things.  I couldn't do it, not unless they were interested in buying past sets.  I would have to tell them to wait a few months or perhaps a year before investing any serious amounts of money in the game.  I think there may be some concern that these types of threads (fact or rumor) hurt potential sales of the game.  That may be true to an extent, but a lot of us are talking about it at our gaming tables every time we play anyhow.  Word spreads just as fast that way too.  Besides, at this point WotC has probably already made a decision about the future of the LFL license.



Because, quite likely, the game WON'T end when WOTC stops making the game. SWCCG is still going pretty strong, nearly 7 years after Decipher lost the license. Their worlds and another large tourment rival SWM's Championship. Hell, we are actually in a bit better position, with some fairly important stuff already handled by volunteers. The end of the license, is not the end of the game.
I played SW:CCG long after Decipher lost the licnese and only sold of the cards to buy minis years later.  I think FU2 will be in the fal line, it keeps them to 3 sets and givs a good break before the holiday season and after the vaction season to save up and buy a new set.

Poor Peter, if it was the end of the game he would have the most dread name in gaming history, cause when Peter comese in the game goes out.  We could start calling him the closer.  HE finishes the pipe and ends the game.  It would follow him for years anytime he got a new postion as a brand manager.
Assuming the Force Unleashed is going to get a new set when the game is released, which i strongly think they will, they couldn't very well add in the WotC catalog "The Force Unleashed 2, released October 2010" now could they? i would think it may give the game away if they did. I don't think there is any problem with the future of SW Minis, and frankly i think all this talk that people keep doing is only hurting the game, its almost as if you want the game to end.




Completely agree with you, I see this game going on for a long time and a logical explanation for the "silence" that we find. I don't like the negative talk since there was to much already. It's nice that there's so much activity on these boards lately with the info about the dark times pieces and I feel the game has come out of it's "recession" and back into the light with an awesome next set. Things are good.
Here's my take: whether we get 2 or 20 more expansions, at some point, the game will end.  Speculation's fun, but in the end, if you enjoy the game, keep playing it, and don't base your decision on whether or not it will continue for years.  Enjoy what we have, look forward to the next, and be content.

Because speculation is fun, I will say that I haven't noticed any severe warning indicators that the game is dying or close to doing so.  Here's why:

1) power creep- tends to come in as a game winds down, as developers like 'going out with a bang.'  By power creep, understand that I mean power relative to cost- not straight power.  For example, yes, that 115pt Luke is crazy powerful, but because he costs so much, that's not power creep- power creep would be if that same character cost 30pts.

2) expansions- if anything, expansions have been more consistent in the last few years- remember the serious lull we used to have between some releases?  At one point, I think it was almost a year between sets.  Now, we're getting them regularly.  Even if another lull did occur, I don't see that as a huge deal.

3) license- I don't know, but I don't believe WOTC is in position to lose the license anytime soon.  That's why Decipher's game died- because WOTC took the license from them.  I don't know of/hear of that happening here.

Overall, I'm happy with the newer expansions, and enjoy playing more than ever.  I look forward to more, and I'm more excited about Dark Times than I have been for a few sets.
My 2 cents.

I've heard all the doom and gloom for years. And I've been pleasantly surprised by each new set that comes along thereafter...and I'll continue to support my purchasing habits until the pink elephant decides to sit on me. But until then...I'm gonna enjoy my hobby, continue to hope for more sets and appreciate the colossal armies I've assembled over the last 4 years.

Heres to hoping they produce more characters of the SW universe!

Cheers
My 2 cents.

I've heard all the doom and gloom for years. And I've been pleasantly surprised by each new set that comes along thereafter...and I'll continue to support my purchasing habits until the pink elephant decides to sit on me. But until then...I'm gonna enjoy my hobby, continue to hope for more sets and appreciate the colossal armies I've assembled over the last 4 years.

Heres to hoping they produce more characters of the SW universe!

Cheers






here, here
The reality is that at some point WotC will stop making expansion sets for SWM.  That's not doom and gloom and I hope, like others, it is a few more years in the future.  It does seem like they are setting themselves up for a bit of a hiatus at the least.  Nobody is saying the end is here, but just some things to consider for when the end is here.  I don't believe the tournament scene will stop for a few years after new sets stop coming.  There is enough of a core group of players to continue to support conventions for quite some time.  There are always other formats to try (Dynamic Duo, Tile Wars) for a variety of squads and I'm sure somebody will come up with some new ones.

People in general don't like to discuss anything ending if it is enjoyable.  Talking about it does not make it come faster and ignoring it does not prolong the activity.  I've seen TV shows come back from all the gloom and doom talk about it being cancelled (Family Guy for one), so sometimes discussion does help.

It will end when it ends, but I'm going to enjoy things for now.
It will end when it ends, but I'm going to enjoy things for now.



My thoughts exactly.
AMS-51 "Dendrite" Connection lost...searching...
The important thing is to have a plan for when the game does go out of print. (I don't say "end" or "die", because the game doesn't end or "die" as long as there are people playing it.) There are only a couple of things we need to keep the game fresh:

1) New stat cards for variety in game rules.
2) New maps for variety in battlegrounds.
3) A source of minis.

My understanding is that there are plans in place for organized fans to pick up the torch and release new sets of stat cards for old little-used minis. I think that's a great idea, and covers #1.

Meanwhile, I plan to keep publishing new maps as long as the community buys enough to keep it profitable, so item #2 is covered. (I don't speak for JediCartographer, but I believe he is committed to doing the same.) My next poster should release within the next week or two, and the maps are my most competitively balanced creations yet...

Item #3 is covered by the secondary market; there are enough minis in circulation now that it will be a long time before we run out of useful plastic.

New sculpts would be great, but they're not as crucial to the longevity of the game. If necessary, the players putting together #1 can release instructions for customizing existing minis to match the new stats they're working on. They can also sparingly use D&D minis, if necessary, as a source of new alien sculpts.

Gamers are industrious and inventive folks when it comes to the subject of their interest.

I'd love to see WotC continue publishing minis, but assuming they don't, the game will still live on for quite some time to come.
Christopher West, Cartographer Maps of Mastery
I got into SWM in July and massively hope they aren't going to stop making them!I have yet to complete the sets and my Yuuzhan Vong army needs a lot of work.
#3 is about the only thing I am worried about as well. They seem to make far less cases of minis than cards. Even then, nearly 8 years out, the CCG supply is beginning to get scarce.
Mmmhhh, it wouldn't surprise me that actually they are just waiting to understand what would be Lucas line up for the FY11 and move accordingly. There are potentially, at least 4 products in the horizon for the incoming year that can have ties in with the minis:

- Old Republic MMORPG
- Force Unleashed 2 (hope they fix the gameplay this time around...hehehe) - The first game was a media hit and had representative product in a lot of areas: graphic novel, novel adaptation, its own dedicated minis set, games for all platforms.... up to now, the biggest LA hit!
- Clone Wars Season 3 (minis will probably do a 2nd Season set)
- The Live Series -mmmhhh, sorta Dark Times 2...

That is some really good "raw material" out there...
In light of the recent news, I'd like to announce that I will be creating the Star Wars Miniatures Skirmish Game Player's Committee. I hereby release Virtual Set 1. Highlights

Nien Nunb will be granted pilot
General Grievous, Jedi Hunter will be given Jedi Hunter
Holsid will be given Separatist Affinity

Meeting adjourned!
Do you want to help advance the game when Wizards pulls the plug? Go Here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/22337613/Minis_YOU_want_to_see:_The_first_step - - -
Mmmhhh, it wouldn't surprise me that actually they are just waiting to understand what would be Lucas line up for the FY11 and move accordingly. There are potentially, at least 4 products in the horizon for the incoming year that can have ties in with the minis:

- Old Republic MMORPG
- Force Unleashed 2 (hope they fix the gameplay this time around...hehehe) - The first game was a media hit and had representative product in a lot of areas: graphic novel, novel adaptation, its own dedicated minis set, games for all platforms.... up to now, the biggest LA hit!
- Clone Wars Season 3 (minis will probably do a 2nd Season set)
- The Live Series -mmmhhh, sorta Dark Times 2...

That is some really good "raw material" out there...



I agree, I don't see how LFL would not see the potential of the strength of tieing in both the Minis and RPG lines with all of their major events: Clone Wars, TOR, TFU II, and eventually the live action series.

And again, the gap is likely because with the lead time on products, they don't want to get caught if their license expires. The only thing that I worry about is the potential of the license (and possibly the game) switching hands. Hell, Heroclix has apparently survived cancellation.

Wow!  Great discussion everyone.  It just goes to show this sort of thing can be discussed without negativity.  I think a lot of us are in agreement that the game (SWM and the RPG) may be going on hiatus in mid to late 2010.  I think WotC would be foolish to abandon the Star Wars gaming license, it would certainly be picked up by another company IMO.  Star Wars is just too big to be ignored.  Regardless of what happens though, the game has a strong player base and would continue for many years.

Smile
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Star Wars is just too big to be ignored.



That's another thing!  It's Star Wars!  Just having the Star Wars logo on a product is enough to sell it.  There would have to be a very good reason involved to reasonably turn ones back on a deal like the one going now.

AMS-51 "Dendrite" Connection lost...searching...
And being totally pessimistic, and even if worst arrives in the form of discontinued minis game - I see this as a "highly unlikely" given what is on the SW catalogue for the future - although wouldn´t mind seeing some sale trends for the last year (information is never a bad thing) -; I have the strongest faith in this community to be able to continue support for the game: virtual sets, vassal tournies,  updating obsolete minis (we all know who they are and where they live!) to make them meta worthy, etc...
Yes, that's right.  I have no doubt that the game will go on for quite a while, thanks to stat updates by people who could quite effectively be playtesting/designing the sets, and new maps from our community's prodigious mapmakers.  The fact that organized play and even DCI updates are run--and run well!--by the fans bodes well for the continuation of the competitive portion of SWM too.
Wow!  Great discussion everyone.  It just goes to show this sort of thing can be discussed without negativity.  I think a lot of us are in agreement that the game (SWM and the RPG) may be going on hiatus in mid to late 2010.  I think WotC would be foolish to abandon the Star Wars gaming license, it would certainly be picked up by another company IMO.  Star Wars is just too big to be ignored.  Regardless of what happens though, the game has a strong player base and would continue for many years.



Totally agree. As they say, STAR WARS IS FOREVER!
In light of the recent news, I'd like to announce that I will be creating the Star Wars Miniatures Skirmish Game Player's Committee. I hereby release Virtual Set 1. Highlights Nien Nunb will be granted pilot General Grievous, Jedi Hunter will be given Jedi Hunter Holsid will be given Separatist Affinity Meeting adjourned!


How can I get on this commitee? JK