Get this guys, all of us who spent time storing up our TSP sets will NOT be able to redeem them!

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[03:35:43 PM] Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Support! How can I help you today?
[03:36:19 PM] : Hey, I heard Time Spiral regular set redemptions were returning today, and I just got home from work to find that there are none remaining. When are they coming back?
[03:36:27 PM] Support Agent: They did come back earlier.
[03:36:41 PM] : They are not there as of the present, though.
[03:36:46 PM] Support Agent: At this point we don't have a lot of information on what's going on with that. They may be sold out already, or there may have been some sort of error.
[03:36:49 PM] : And I have 25 sets to redeem
[03:37:16 PM] : Well, I bought 25 sets with the hopes of turning them into physical product.
[03:37:22 PM] Support Agent: We're forwarding any questions on to the Magic Online team to answer. I can add yours to the list, if you'd like. You should be getting an email response back shortly.
[03:37:57 PM] : Well, I must imagine you have a very long list
[03:38:06 PM] : A number of people are very upset about this
[03:38:11 PM] Support Agent: You are definitely not the first person to ask about this, no.
[03:38:27 PM] : A lot of us work during the day, and we did not even have a chance to place an order
[03:38:59 PM] : I hope that they are put back up in the near future, because a lot of us invested a lot of money in the hopes of being able to redeem them
[03:39:12 PM] Support Agent: I can definitely understand that.
[03:39:35 PM] : What would happen in the event of a sellout as of this moment?
[03:39:53 PM] Support Agent: I do not know. We've been given no information about that.
[03:40:26 PM] : OK, but I am sure you know that many of us would not accept the worst case scenario as an answer
[03:40:34 PM] : and many of us are your most loyal customers
[03:40:54 PM] Support Agent: I wish I could provide you more information, but I've given you all that I have. I'll definitely pass along your thoughts and request for more info.
[03:41:02 PM] : OK, thank you
[03:41:05 PM] '' disconnected ('Concluded by End-user').






 Discussion Thread
 Response (Support Agent)12/16/2009 05:09 PM
Hello XXXX,

We’re sorry that you weren’t able to redeem your sets. Unfortunately all of the sets available have been redeemed, and we will not be adding any more in the future.

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.


To login to your account, or update your question please click here.


 


 


 


 


 


So yes, thanks Wizards for setting cut-off dates that you do not plan on keeping, making promises to loyal customers like me, who planned on redeeming 25 TSP sets at the cutoff, and completely turning your backs on them, and last of all, thank you for completely denying those who work a full-time job, the part of your customer base who pours the most money into your product, the ability to redeem their TSP sets.


Trust me when I say that I will NEVER forget the ineptitude of your staff and your complete and utter disregard for your customers.  You can count the $4000 per month I pour into your program gone.




When TSP was stocked out, I was told VERY clearly by your support staff that I would be able to redeem sets in spote of this and that purchasing full sets was a safe investment.  I wouldn't have purchased 25 sets in the meantime if ANYTHING like this had a remote possibility of happening.


I agree, this sucks.  I also spent money specifically for the purpose of redeeming a Time Spiral set, when at the time Time Spiral was listed as being redeemable until the 7th.  Then once I had my set I went to the store and couldn't redeem it.  So even though Wizards website said the set was redeemable at the time I spent money on it, I never had an opportunity to redeem those cards.  That is an absurdly bad customer experience.

Edit: not only that, but I went to the support channel in the game at the time and they assured me I would get a chance to redeem the set.  This is an incredibly negative experience for me.
I currently have 25 sets sitting in my account.  I will happily gather as many people together just to show WOTC the stupidity of its ways.  Lying to your customer base, especially the part with money, is not smart.

If we had missed the cutoff date, then I would not be so angry...but I spent lots of time and money preparing for it, only to be given the middle finger.
There is absolutely no excuse for this. I wanted to redeem 1 measly set and I am livid that I can't. I can only imagine how it must feel to have 25 sets ready to redeem. Wizards must allow everyone to redeem their sets or they could be in for a mass exodus. 2-3 times a year they give me a reason to quit this game, and they have always been fortunate that I love playing this silly game. One of these times though, I will get fed up and call it a day. And I know I'm not the only one.

So, if someone from Wizards is reading this (someone who can institute change, perhaps), please consider that this is one of the single most egregious offenses I have encountered. And I expect recourse, whether legal or just by people quitting. I know I spoke to one individual who claims to be quitting who also claims to spend $50k a year on MTGO. That's a hefty loss.

Here's a solution: Allow a certain amount of time for redemptions whereby you can ascertain the number that need to be printed. Print them and ship them to the individuals. And all is settled. It's really that simple.
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Indeed, that is not the point of this post.

The point is to let WOTC know just how many people this has affected, from the routine set-builder to myself, someone who has bought enough tickets directly from the MTGO store during his lifetime to likely buy a condominium. 

Being betrayed by lies and deceit is a terrible way to retain customers, and I do not believe I have ever felt such disrespect from any entity, be it human or corporate, in my life.
I indeed got the same answer the poster did.  It is quite unfortunate that things worked out this way.  Especially given that I made sure I was up and online early enough to be able to catch it when it was supposed to come up after the 4-hour downtime.

As it turned out of course the downtime only lasted 2.5 hours (much shorter than normal), and within minutes of it coming online at 10:30am (or so I was told) the sets were allready sold out.

I specifically asked them how many sets they put into the store. The response I got:

"Unfortunately, the information you've requested is not something we can provide. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you."

Seems odd that they would be unwilling to provide that sort of information, of course I suppose I dont know how they usually handle this sort of thing, but if I was assuming that wizards lacked integrity, I could surely assume from their lack of response that the amount of sets that were put up were in fact minimal rather than being a full restock like they promised.  Of course without them being willing to tell us, I suppose it is up to us to decide what the truth is.

In the end I will be honest in saying that thankfully I didnt put a bunch of money into purchasing the sets yet, though I had every intention of getting and redeeming 50 of them if I would have had the opportunity to do so.  So I suppose its more of a loss to the guy I was going to be buying the sets from more than anything.

To all those that are now sitting on a lot of time spiral sets and can do nothing with them (if you were hoping to redeem them), Im certainly sorry, and wish there was something that we could do about this, but it doesnt look likely.

I suppose in the future we should all plan about 6-months ahead for doing our redemptions to make sure we dont get hosed like many of us did today.

If anyone does happen to find out how many sets they put up in the store to start the day (somehow) Im sure a lot of us would be interested to know.

On a semi-related note.  Does anyone have a clue as to why so many set redemptions came due this year?  Fifth Dawn, Champs block, Ravnica Block, and Time Spiral Block w/coldsnap.

Anyhow, hope things go better next year with lorwyn/shadowmoor blocks and 10th edition.  Though Im beginning to have my doubts unfortunately :/.

Look on the bright side, online cards are 10 times better anyway.
Indeed, that is not the point of this post.

The point is to let WOTC know just how many people this has affected, from the routine set-builder to myself, someone who has bought enough tickets directly from the MTGO store during his lifetime to likely buy a condominium. 

Being betrayed by lies and deceit is a terrible way to retain customers, and I do not believe I have ever felt such disrespect from any entity, be it human or corporate, in my life.



I completely agree that WotC has screwed this batch of redemption up quite badly.
WotC really needs to make this right to their customers.  (Nope, I am not trying to redeem anything.)

I also am quite happy for you that this is the worst disrespect you have had in your life, may you continue such an idyllic life.  You probably don't need to resort to such hyperbole to make your point. 

Good luck with this, I hope WotC does the right thing.

Thank you, Erik.
the things you own end up owning you


I also am quite happy for you that this is the worst disrespect you have had in your life, may you continue such an idyllic life.  You probably don't need to resort to such hyperbole to make your point. 




Good point, and after thinking about it, I believe I can revise my statement to coverate corporate entities and have it be legitimately-true.  I have dealt with Blizzard's customer service in the past, as well, but at least they seem to actually place the interests of the consumer at heart when they made decisions that were seen as unfair.

I mean, the other sets I can understand why the cutoff was definitive, but TSP was out for WEEKS prior to the cutoff, and those of us who had been set building 2-3 weeks before the cutoff such as myself are now stuck with nothing but product and the empty promises made by customer service reps.  And trust me, this is not hyperbole.

Told you guys this would happen in the last thread about failed redemption.

Edit:  That said, I have 2 sets I could also redeem.
Friends,

Let me begin to say that I have personally been screwed over by the redemption policy SEVERAL times. This first happened to me with DISSENSION. I was unable to redeem my foil set within the redemption deadline. When I emailed the help desk, they basically said "tough luck." They were sold out and we can't help you even though I tried to do it within the deadline.

Then, I tried to redeem my FOIL Time Spiral and again, of course, NO LUCK. And for some reason, I was unable to redeem my FOIL TSB and FOIL PLC, even though they were purportedly not sold out.

I have emailed WOTC DAILY with request for a logical explanation. The person responsible for the redemption (I am told) is Vincent. He has been not helpful with regards to the redemption, and basically told me to consider REDEEMING MY SET EARLIER. I thought the reason that there is a redemption deadline is so that we can plan on when to redeem the cards.

I personally find this type of redemption policy UNACCEPTABLE. I have also emailed some other people in charge of redemption without any success.

I am actually planning on filing a formal complaint with the Federal Trades Commission, which governs consumer fraud. Basically, I view this as deceptive advertising since WOTC states that we can redeem sets within the deadline, but they do not themselves honor the deadline.

By the way, I am really sad to hear about the individual who had 25 TSP set...   I only had 3 foil sets that I could not redeem.
I don't see how set redemptions are something Wizards can sell out of. They should be like event tickets. Set redemptions aren't things. You may purchase a "set redemption object" from the store for $5, but what you're really doing is putting yourself in line for the redemption program which runs during the downtime.

If the set redemptions are of limited supply, then what does that mean? Only some digital cards are worth paper cards? The deal made by Wizards was "redeem by the deadline". I don't remember there ever being a condition such as "only 250 TSP sets may be redeemed per week" or something like that. Think of it this way: only the first 250 Baneslayer Angels cracked each week are worth $35. The rest are worth maybe $20. Or whatever.

Each week, every redemption request should be processed. It's simple: they take your $5 redemption request and your set, and you wait. So what if Wizards runs out of sets? If 900 sets were redeemed on the deadline then you might be waiting until March. And between now and March you'll have neither your digital nor your paper set. But you kind of deserved it for waiting until the rush to redeem, I guess.
How poorly this business is run is just beyond belief.  This is a major cash making enterprise, with revenue probably into the 9 figure range annually, yet they can't seem to do anything right.


I would honestly like to see the business management credentials on the people running this operation.  I respect Worth Wollpert as a person, he seems like a genuinely nice, intelligent, and well-intentioned person. That being said, what are his credentials?  For the person running this operation, I would expect an MBA from Wharton or Harvard. This is very big business, and it could get a whole lot bigger if it was better run.  (As an aside, I don't know exactly what Worth's role is, and obviously without knowing the internal workings of the company, can't say who is to blame for any particular failing).


If things are constantly breaking, you need more, and better programmers.  Having a well-oiled, professional looking program is going to help a lot. Magic is growing again in popular culture.  I frequent another large forum, that is is in know way related to Magic, Gaming, or fantasy/ sci-fi, and there are tons of people whose avatars are fake Magic cards.  This game is growing in popularity, and yet MTGO continues to be an unprofessionally run program, with terrible customer service.

I have no doubt that Wizards is an incredibly fun place to work, with a great work environment.  That being said, on the MTGO side of things, things need to be more professional, and I think injecting some people who have experience running major business enterprises could help out a lot.
I don't see how set redemptions are something Wizards can sell out of. They should be like event tickets. Set redemptions aren't things. You may purchase a "set redemption object" from the store for $5, but what you're really doing is putting yourself in line for the redemption program which runs during the downtime.

If the set redemptions are of limited supply, then what does that mean? Only some digital cards are worth paper cards? The deal made by Wizards was "redeem by the deadline". I don't remember there ever being a condition such as "only 250 TSP sets may be redeemed per week" or something like that. Think of it this way: only the first 250 Baneslayer Angels cracked each week are worth $35. The rest are worth maybe $20. Or whatever.

Each week, every redemption request should be processed. It's simple: they take your $5 redemption request and your set, and you wait. So what if Wizards runs out of sets? If 900 sets were redeemed on the deadline then you might be waiting until March. And between now and March you'll have neither your digital nor your paper set. But you kind of deserved it for waiting until the rush to redeem, I guess.



I completely agree.  The fact that they don't accept every redemption request made before the deadline is preposterous.  Redemption is supposed to mean that a digital set is worth a physical set if you have it during the specified redemption period.  By denying the chance to redeem your cards during the redemption period, they're refusing to give you something which you've already bought from them.  At the very least there should be refunds for anyone who wanted to redeem a set and was screwed out of it - of course it becomes very messy to untangle which tickets purchased at the store went into getting the set - and also which packs you purchased back when they were still on sale contributed to the set you wanted to redeem.  Wizards has created an incredibly messy situation here at the same time as screwing over some of their best customers.
Redemption builds the foundation for the value of MTGO virtual objects. Today Wizards destroyed that foundation because apparently they couldn't be bothered to print some more sets. Today it is Time Spiral, tomorrow is it Zendikar? Do I need to think twice about spending money on virtual objects (packs AND singles) when the chances for redemption may be dubious?

This is a HUGE problem.
Over/under on timespan until they inevitably announce the total discontinuation of the redemption program?
Redemption builds the foundation for the value of MTGO virtual objects. Today Wizards destroyed that foundation because apparently they couldn't be bothered to print some more sets. Today it is Time Spiral, tomorrow is it Zendikar? Do I need to think twice about spending money on virtual objects (packs AND singles) when the chances for redemption may be dubious?

This is a HUGE problem.



Really... I should care about how it is hard for you to take product out of MTGO?

It isn't virtual, it is real. It is the future, and if wotc has been depending on redemption to be able to work properly, times need/are a changin.

I fail to see how Mythic cards leaving MTGO is good for MTGO users.



Honestly all wizards needs to do in regards to mtgo redemption is state the following in the redemption help files and what not:

Redemption will be available in the magic online store until such and such deadline, or as long as supplies last."

The problem with having deadlines and handling them as wizards seems to do, is that without the added end of the above sentance wizards opens themselves up to potential problems.

That said, I think the best way to handle this for wizards is as I mentioned it in the other thread.

They need to keep redemption as an available option in the store equal or close to equal to the quantity they have available as they usually do, and if it runs out before the end of the deadline they need to extend it.  When extending it they should pick a week (as they did here) and mention that they are sold out or nearly sold out, but that all redemption orders put in will be honored within a certain period of time (1-year or so).  Thus guaranteeing to people that they will be able to redeem as many virtual sets for online sets as they want, while giving wizards time to be able to fulfill the orders amid all of the newer sets and everything else they have to deal with that they need to keep up with.

I for one think this would inevitably keep their entire redemption-side playerbase happy and wouldnt neccessarily completely hose those that run into issues like we did this last time.

Even with all that said.  I will just make sure in the future to put in my final redemption orders for older sets well ahead of time to help avoid such issues, and I highly doubt they will ever get rid of the redemption option.  I have a distinct feeling that without the redemption option wizards wouldnt do even 1/2 of the sales they do on magic online currently.


 


Now even more with all of that said, I do want to compliment wizards on how well they do with redemption when things are working correctly (which honestly is most of the time).  Issues with deadlines aside, or temporarily running out of high-demand sets that they usually get back in stock quickly aside its incredible how effieciently they are able to take care of the redemption system for all of us that do make use of it.  For me to be able to put together/purchase sets from people on magic online, put in redemption orders and then have those same sets at my doorstep late the following week is something I cannot appreciate being able to do more.  Especially when demand is so high in the world of paper magic that sealed product becomes harder and harder to find for us singles collectors/sellers.


The system/process has some clear flaws.  I am hopefuly that perhaps wizards will take heed to what people here have had to say and consider making some changes to the way they handle things to help deal with some of the issues we have brought up.  And on top of everything else they have nearly a year to implement any changes before the next deadline comes up.  So here's hoping.

Friends,

Let me begin to say that I have personally been screwed over by the redemption policy SEVERAL times. This first happened to me with DISSENSION. I was unable to redeem my foil set within the redemption deadline. When I emailed the help desk, they basically said "tough luck." They were sold out and we can't help you even though I tried to do it within the deadline.

Then, I tried to redeem my FOIL Time Spiral and again, of course, NO LUCK. And for some reason, I was unable to redeem my FOIL TSB and FOIL PLC, even though they were purportedly not sold out.

I have emailed WOTC DAILY with request for a logical explanation. The person responsible for the redemption (I am told) is Vincent. He has been not helpful with regards to the redemption, and basically told me to consider REDEEMING MY SET EARLIER. I thought the reason that there is a redemption deadline is so that we can plan on when to redeem the cards.

I personally find this type of redemption policy UNACCEPTABLE. I have also emailed some other people in charge of redemption without any success.

I am actually planning on filing a formal complaint with the Federal Trades Commission, which governs consumer fraud. Basically, I view this as deceptive advertising since WOTC states that we can redeem sets within the deadline, but they do not themselves honor the deadline.

By the way, I am really sad to hear about the individual who had 25 TSP set...   I only had 3 foil sets that I could not redeem.




"However, this is the first time Wizards ever failed to deliver on a non-foil set, and it is a promise that they made to a LOT of us about availability that caused us to buy more product. 

They led us on and allowed us to pour more money into the system on the back of the hope that we could redeem the set, and now, they are pretending as if nothing happened.  THIS is what is unacceptable, and they may piss of a select few by failing to re-print a foil set, but I know well over 20 individuals alone who were just as badly-screwed as I was.


Redemption builds the foundation for the value of MTGO virtual objects. Today Wizards destroyed that foundation because apparently they couldn't be bothered to print some more sets. Today it is Time Spiral, tomorrow is it Zendikar? Do I need to think twice about spending money on virtual objects (packs AND singles) when the chances for redemption may be dubious?

This is a HUGE problem. "

If I do not get my sets, I am not pouring another cent of my $48,000 annual budget into MTGO, as I cannot put my money into an investment that would not pay--it would be like me putting my money with Madoff.   I know at least 2 other dealers who are much, much larger than myself who were PERSONALLY screwed out of sets, as well, and although I may only know 20 people who were screwed on a name-to-name basis, we all contribute about the same amount of money, and we are all equally pissed-off.

$48,00* 20 is just under $1,000,000 of revenue that they would lose from my close circle, alone.

Over/under on timespan until they inevitably announce the total discontinuation of the redemption program?



I've spoken to this issue before and there is no way they can discontinue redemption while maintaining any semblance of a decent revenue stream.  Killing redemption will cause a failure of the secondary market which will in turn cause a significant decrease in purchases from the store by drafters.  The only way this will be corrected is when the supply of cards being produced from drafts matches the demand needed by casual players which is an incredibly small number.  Wizards could expect to see a 50-75% decrease in revenue if they discontinued redemption and I think that is a safe estimate.
I don't redeem sets, but I think it's terrible of WotC to tell players they can redeem, and then say no when they try.

That's flat out deception, and completely unacceptable.
DCI Certified Level 2 Judge
i have nver even come close to owning an entire set, but i was wondering, does anyone know why WotC would say in the EULA that there is a set amount of time available to each user for set redemption, yet in reality Wizards changes that time limit when ever it pleases them?

If this is true it sounds inexcusable. 
Wow this is a huge dissapointment.  I have sets waiting myself and I just assumed they were temp. out of them.  I'll give them some time to respond to this situation but this is totally unexcusable IMO and they need to get more sets in.  I bet a few people redeemed a few hundred of them and totally screwed the rest of us although it should of not mattered if WOTC had enough of them in the first place.  I don't see any problem with them running out but they should at least go ahead and print more.  What they can do is ask people that want to redeem them to e-mail them a request letting them know exactly how many they need to redeem so they can print that exact amount.  I'm sure they didn't want to print too many and have dead sets sitting around.  We are awaiting your response WOTC so the ball is in your court.

Hopefully we will get a response soon and it is just a case of miscommunication.
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Over/under on timespan until they inevitably announce the total discontinuation of the redemption program?



I've spoken to this issue before and there is no way they can discontinue redemption while maintaining any semblance of a decent revenue stream.  Killing redemption will cause a failure of the secondary market which will in turn cause a significant decrease in purchases from the store by drafters.  The only way this will be corrected is when the supply of cards being produced from drafts matches the demand needed by casual players which is an incredibly small number.  Wizards could expect to see a 50-75% decrease in revenue if they discontinued redemption and I think that is a safe estimate.



That is probably true so long as there is no other outlet for the cards.

Were there to be another outlet, redemption probably becomes moot, because that is the only purpose it serves - to reduce supply.
Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)
I can understand people will be very unhappy with this, but Wotc has to make a limit on Redemption for the sake of both the paper and mtgo-economy. Magic is available for about 2 years and redemption even extends that for another year mostly. There is never a perfect cut-off date for these things but they do have to set a limit. It's like when you drove just past the speedlimit and get fined. It sucks but they have to set a limit.

It's almost 2010 now, TS block has had more than enough time to be redeemed now and they have to cut if off at some point. I can understand people cutting it close with a set or 2 but it's shortsighted to have 25 sets on hand for the last weeks of redemption.

That said Wotc should just make redemption work differently: Don't let the store run out of stock and let people redeem as much and whatever they want within the time limit, after the cut-off date they can see how much they need and print it. I don't get why they don't already do this but maybe some weird thing is stopping it from working like that.
our new, happy life
I can understand people will be very unhappy with this, but Wotc has to make a limit on Redemption for the sake of both the paper and mtgo-economy. Magic is available for about 2 years and redemption even extends that for another year mostly. There is never a perfect cut-off date for these things but they do have to set a limit. It's like when you drove just past the speedlimit and get fined. It sucks but they have to set a limit.

It's almost 2010 now, TS block has had more than enough time to be redeemed now and they have to cut if off at some point. I can understand people cutting it close with a set or 2 but it's shortsighted to have 25 sets on hand for the last weeks of redemption.

That said Wotc should just make redemption work differently: Don't let the store run out of stock and let people redeem as much and whatever they want within the time limit, after the cut-off date they can see how much they need and print it. I don't get why they don't already do this but maybe some weird thing is stopping it from working like that.



Well I have no problem with them cutting it off but they should not tell us you can redeem until X date and then say oh whoops sorry actually we didn't have enough so thanks for building all of those sets but looks like it was a waste of your time and money...  Better luck next time love WOTC xoxo
PureMTGO.com
Cape Fear Games located in Wilmington, NC. Get 20% extra MTGO credit for your paper cards.
I don't redeem sets any more but this is terrible. 

That said Wotc should just make redemption work differently: Don't let the store run out of stock and let people redeem as much and whatever they want within the time limit, after the cut-off date they can see how much they need and print it. I don't get why they don't already do this but maybe some weird thing is stopping it from working like that.



Very few manufactured goods in the world work this way.  Manufacturing to order has proven time and time again to be more problematic (Mostly more expensive) than gauging the product level expected and manufacturing to that level.  Somtimes you are short, sometimes you are long, but at least you've manufactured in the most efficient way possible.

I don't want to sound over-hyberbolic on the point, but WoTC isn't priting Magic cards on their Deskjet.  The likley result of trying to print to order would likely be a massive increase in the cost of redemption, which you can bet would be passed on to the users - either by additional costs on the redemption iteslf (sorry "dealers" - no more profit) or by way of increasing the only other means they have - charging more for packs.  And I'll be damned if I'm going to pay extra because a super small % of the MTGO populace wants to redeem.

Communication here seems to have been a problem for WoTC (this is a recording) but redeemers with 25 sets left to redeem on a "last call" really oughta not be so surprised when someone got the last of the stock.
Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)


Very few manufactured goods in the world work this way.  Manufacturing to order has proven time and time again to be more problematic (Mostly more expensive) than gauging the product level expected and manufacturing to that level.  Somtimes you are short, sometimes you are long, but at least you've manufactured in the most efficient way possible.



Actually, you've got it completely backwards.  Just In Time manufacturing is all the rage now, and is the most efficient:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_(business)

Having said that, WotC doesn't need to go print-to-order for set redemptions.  All they need to do is NOT have "redeem by" dates at all, and instead just stock the store with a definitive supply.  If they wind up with supply left-over, they can restock those and sell them too if they wish.  This is actually the system they have now, except they make the mistake of advertising a cut-off date, which gives some customers the impression that they should be able to fulfill all orders up until that date, and expect an automatic extension when they cannot.  This is just bad business practice on WotC's part.
Madness?? This... is... MtGO!
Really an absurd situation.
Captain of the Lotus Farmers - Yes you have my glove in your face! 420 Posts: 6/11/2010


Very few manufactured goods in the world work this way.  Manufacturing to order has proven time and time again to be more problematic (Mostly more expensive) than gauging the product level expected and manufacturing to that level.  Somtimes you are short, sometimes you are long, but at least you've manufactured in the most efficient way possible.



Actually, you've got it completely backwards.  Just In Time manufacturing is all the rage now, and is the most efficient:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_(business)



I work in the Distrubution industry.  Most manufacturer's of high-volume real goods can't manufacturer to order - they get order estimate and have runs based on those.  This is why Zen treasures in the 1st run box got crazy distributions - the estimates were wildly under what the print run was



Having said that, WotC doesn't need to go print-to-order for set redemptions.  All they need to do is NOT have "redeem by" dates at all, and instead just stock the store with a definitive supply.  If they wind up with supply left-over, they can restock those and sell them too if they wish.  This is actually the system they have now, except they make the mistake of advertising a cut-off date, which gives some customers the impression that they should be able to fulfill all orders up until that date, and expect an automatic extension when they cannot.  This is just bad business practice on WotC's part.



I agree with this part emphatically.

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Yes. Just-in-Time works since there is a manufacturer of the smaller goods, who produces them en masse. These in turn are delivered to the customer just-in-time for them to be used.  I.e. it is a process for efficient delivery and to minimize storage, not for manufacturing itself.
If WoTC is printing a fresh batch of cards each go at it, JIT isn't really applicable.
However, this is still another example of WoTCs blatant disregard for their customers. This may not affect everyone (or myself,) but there are still some loyal customers getting screwed here, after they have operated according to the parameters set forth by wotc. Redemption is considered I am sure by many to be a safety net of sorts, and I would hate see it gone.
Captain of the Lotus Farmers - Yes you have my glove in your face! 420 Posts: 6/11/2010
I have never redeemed a set and never intend to, but this is absolutely DISGUSTING behaviour by WOTC.

Luckily, I am not personally affected by the torpedoing of redemption.  But it is clearly wrong, and I do hope that Worth will not let this injustice stand.

The problem is of course that printing a small number of orders is very expensive for WotC.  Here is a proposal.  Everybody who attempted to redeem a set before the deadline and was unable to do so gets a choice to redeem that MTGO set for a paper set among those currently available.   So the OP would be able to redeem the 25 MTGO TSP sets for 25 paper Zendicar or Alara sets.  Although this might not please everybody, it is clearly superior to no redemption at all. 

I usually play as RogueDesigner.
The solution seems pretty simple to me.  Have everyone that wants to redeem do so within the next X days.  Once all of the redemptions are in they print the exact number of missing sets and fufill them.  They explain to everyone that the redemptions will take much longer than normal but at least we do not lose out because some of us have to work.
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I agree with your suggestion completely and I'd be willing to wait for a long time for the assurance that I would get the playsets that I had compiled.  In the future I will redeem my sets earlier but I like to be able to play with the cards online as long as possible until I need to add them to my physical collection.  I guess my mistake in assuming that the redemption dates have any meaning.
I just have to ask why are you redeeming 25 time spiral sets and waiting until the last week to do so?  You guys are making it sound like oh noes redemtion is going to fail, when in reality it's you guys waiting until the last minute to redeem a bunch of sets out, and then OMG I don't get to redeem a bunch of crap anyway when it might be worth a little more IRL.  Seriously on something like this that should have been redeemed sooner or not had the time wasted in redeeming awful sets.  Are you needing hypergenesis or vesuva that badly?  For those people wondering what the buy-sell spread is on this worthless set it's around 15-20.  That's it.  Redemption on that alone is $5 per set.  That's something that should have been done sooner if it was going to be done at all.  GJ guys.  Oh and replacing time spiral with zendikar or m10 can't be an option, because the next sets are just about as low, and this will happen again.
My repsonses to scattered stuff in this thread:

WotC should honor the deadline they set.

They should add "or while supplies last" to the redemption deadline in the future.

JIT manufacturing only works for certain manufacturing models.  This is not one of them.  Pre-orders that are printed on a quarterly basis probably would work, but this of course means longer redemption times.

The impact of redemption on the MTGO is hugely overstated, as usual.  The impact is almost purely a psychological one; the actual volume of sets redeemed is an exceedingly small fraction of sets opened.

WotC's view of redemption is very different than some of yours.  While the behavior is tolerated, WotC does not see redemption as a way to turn digital into paper to resell in massive quantities, nor do they particularly want it to be.  Redemption is intended to be for the casual player who just wants to redeem a couple of sets.

There will be changes to the redemption policy in the near future.

If Anchorman tells us again how many sets he redeems or how much he spends, I'm gonna go nuts and throw things.

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My repsonses to scattered stuff in this thread:

WotC should honor the deadline they set.

They should add "or while supplies last" to the redemption deadline in the future.

JIT manufacturing only works for certain manufacturing models.  This is not one of them.  Pre-orders that are printed on a quarterly basis probably would work, but this of course means longer redemption times.

The impact of redemption on the MTGO is hugely overstated, as usual.  The impact is almost purely a psychological one; the actual volume of sets redeemed is an exceedingly small fraction of sets opened.

WotC's view of redemption is very different than some of yours.  While the behavior is tolerated, WotC does not see redemption as a way to turn digital into paper to resell in massive quantities, nor do they particularly want it to be.  Redemption is intended to be for the casual player who just wants to redeem a couple of sets.

There will be changes to the redemption policy in the near future.

If Anchorman tells us again how many sets he redeems or how much he spends, I'm gonna go nuts and throw things.



I only redeemed 14 TSP sets...the guy who bought them out of stock got the last 27 sets all for himself.  WoTC doesn't need to print to order, im sure it costs them less than $1 to produce a set of MTGO.  Shipping costs aside, just destroy the excess.  Or, show the available quantities in the store.  Many solutions will work here, but you can't just say redeem until X date and then not have them available prior to that when you never made any statement regarding it was based on availability.  They know full well that if they limit redemption it will cut into their MTGO revenue.  Seems they just want to dip in a lot of pots and make promises all around without honoring them.