Do I have to include dragonborn in my games?

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I really don't like them (too weird/exotic), but one of my players told me that I have to use them.  Is this true?
If you were playing in Living Forgotten Realms or some other 'official' RPGA game, then you'd have to.  I do agree with the above poster that banning things because you don't like them is silly.  I used to do it, and I was wrong to do so.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

You don't HAVE to do anything.  However, I think its a good policy to try to be accomodating to reasonable player requests and asking to play a race that is in the PHB falls under my definition of "reasonable".  If they didn't fit in my particular campaign world I might say something like "Well, here's why they won't fit in my campaign [insert explanation here], but if you can come up with a good way to make your character fit, let me know and if I agree it fits, knock yourself out" 

Simple answer: No, you don't HAVE to allow them in your games. It's a bit douche-baggish to tell a player that wants to play one that, but ultimately it's your choice as DM. If you can offer a valid explanation as to why you don't want them in your game, it might make telling your players "no" a little easier, and you won't come off as a power-tripping DM.

Smart-Butt Answer: Yes. If you don't allow them in your game, then you will be putting helpless Dragonborn out on the street. It's the Holidays, man! Don't put Dragonborn out on the street, especially at the Holidays! Think of all the little-bitty Dragonborn babies that will go hungry because you didn't let their daddy adventure in your world! Do it for the kids, man! The kids! Tongue out
I really don't like them (too weird/exotic), but one of my players told me that I have to use them. Is this true?



not any more true then i have to use elves in my games.

the main problem is between player & GM expectation. most players expect the PHB content to be fair game, so ruling out a PHB race/class/feat/ect... will require some explaining and mutual understanding.

remember that a GM is a host, and while the players are expected to follow your rules, you're also expected to run a game they would like to play. have a pregame session for character & setting generation to iron out the finer points and discuss things as a group.
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
I used to do it, and I was wrong to do so.



Mea Culpa, my friend, mea culpa. I was guilty of this as well. Today? Hell yeah, give me your plot hooks by playing some weird race. I won't punish you, but I'll make use of the given hooks!

Also important notice: If you choose to include Dragonborn for one player alone, do not punish him for his choice. We play RPG's to flee the real world and if you keep slugging racist stuff at him because he plays a Dragonborn you'll probably have one pissed player right there.



Wasn't even a weird race.  I banned elves (along with a bunch of other stuff, but for one player, this was the proverbial last straw.  He literally will not play anything else.)
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
We play RPG's to flee the real world and if you keep slugging racist stuff at him because he plays a Dragonborn you'll probably have one pissed player right there.



Depends.  He might be playing the character because he wants to play an outcast (I enjoy that type of character from time to time, anyway).  Can't really be an outcast if everyone is all accepting of you and everything.

Step 1) You ban things that you don't like with no regard towards what your players want.
Step 2) Your players have less fun with your campaign.
Step 3) You have less fun with your campaign.
Step 4) ???
Step 5) Don't Profit.

Seriously, D&D isn't played just for the DM's amusement. What the players want is also important, and if the players aren't having as much fun, then you won't be having as much fun either. I swear, if I banned ever PC that I didn't initially like, I don't think I would have had as much fun DMing for my players as I have.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Yes, you have to, and if you don't, WotC's ninja strike team will burst into your house and shred all of your books.


More seriously, I'd echo the posters above.  You don't have to do anything.  But if one of your friends really wants to play a Dragonborn, and you like doing nice things for your friends (you should), then you should let him play one.  He'll have more fun because he gets to play what he wants, and maybe you'll have more fun because he'll be happier and more into his character.  If he plays him well, you might even like the Dragonborn a little more.  Remember, the main point of D&D is for everyone to have fun.  Some of my favorite moments in D&D as a DM started with the players taking the story in some direction I didn't originally intend.
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?
Were it up to me, I would have never allowed gnomes in my games. Undoubtedly, though, every game I ran had at least one person who wanted to be a gnome. I hated them. I had nothing but contempt for them. I still do. My players never knew it, though. They were having fun, and that was so much more important than my own tastes in PC races.
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



Morally? Goodness, no. There's nothing "moral" about it. If you don't like them, then you don't like them. The very first session of your game, sit everyone down and tell them what will not be allowed in your game while you are DM. If they agree, then you're good to go. If they protest, then you have to decide whether it is more important to have happy players, or mor eimportant to not have Dragonborn in your games.
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



Morally wrong?  No. 

Ill-advised?  Yes.

Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?

Not necesasrily, but it is wrong for you to take something out of the game that you don't like without first considering how your players would feel about it. If you and your players are all in agreement that you don't want something as part of the game or don't care one way or the other if it's part of the game, then feel more than free to remove it! But if your players would want to play something and you're disallowing it just because you don't like it, then yes, that would be wrong of you.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Ah, okay, that makes more sense.
Yes.

If you do not include Dragonborn in your games, the team of elite Kobold Kommandos will track you down, rip up your notes, and send your players to Sleep With The Chuul.  Do not worry, this is for the greater good; games without Dragonborn have been proven to attract the attention of the Far Realm, who will attempt to infect your brain with tadpoles delivered through pizza or snack chip vectors.  For the sake of the realm, include Dragonborn.

Wink
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



I don't know if I'd call it morally wrong, but I'd assuredly call it selfish.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Not necesasrily, but it is wrong for you to take something out of the game that you don't like without first considering how your players would feel about it. If you and your players are all in agreement that you don't want something as part of the game or don't care one way or the other if it's part of the game, then feel more than free to remove it! But if your players would want to play something and you're disallowing it just because you don't like it, then yes, that would be wrong of you.


Wait, so it is morally wrong to disallow dragonborn because I don't like them?  Some people are saying yes; others are saying no.
Wait, so it is morally wrong to disallow dragonborn because I don't like them?  Some people are saying yes; others are saying no.

I didn't say yes. I said it depends. It's not a yes or no answer. In some scenarios it is. It some scenarios it isn't.
When everybody's in agreement, it's perfectly fine. When nobody's being asked whether they agree, it's selfish.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I'm going to have to say that it's never morally wrong to disallow dragonborn.  It might be something you disagree with, but to classify it as having moral value is a little much.
Not necesasrily, but it is wrong for you to take something out of the game that you don't like without first considering how your players would feel about it. If you and your players are all in agreement that you don't want something as part of the game or don't care one way or the other if it's part of the game, then feel more than free to remove it! But if your players would want to play something and you're disallowing it just because you don't like it, then yes, that would be wrong of you.


Wait, so it is morally wrong to disallow dragonborn because I don't like them?  Some people are saying yes; others are saying no.



People are telling you the same thing, just with more or less description. The response is:

No, it is not morally wrong to disallow dragonborn because you don't like them.

BUT: to be selfish is to act in an immoral way.

Thus, if someone at the table really likes dragonborn, and you disallow them just because you don't like them, you are then acting immorally. You are not acting immorally because you disallowed dragonborn. You are acting immorally because you put your desires before the desires of your group, acting in a selfish manner, at the direct cost of one of your players ability to fully enjoy the game.
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



          As the DM you are allowed to have whatever you want as a playable race. Don't listen to anyone that tells you that it's selfish or immoral cause that's pure opinion not fact. The DM is the one that creates the world and if you don't like Dragonborn or any other race in the book then you do not have to allow them even if players want them. Players are not supposed to be whining little children.

          You are doing them the favor by taking up your time and creating the game in order for them to play in. Sit down and tell them what you are allowing and not allowing before anyone starts making characters. If someone whines cause they can't play a certain race then tell them to pick another, if they really want to play they will choose another. If you don't want to allow humans because you don't like them then go for it.

          If you shove in a race that you don't like then most of the time that race will feel like it in your world. I amm assuming that since you don't like Dragonborn then you haven't invested any time in learning about them in depth, so if this is true then just sticking them in there could ruin your game. If you allow everyone to play a beholder then that is perfectly fine as well. There is nothing in the books that say you have to allow anything, it doesn't make you any less of a DM to allow or disallow anything.

        I still can't believe I read that some people were saying that you would be selfish by not allowing it.

Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



          As the DM you are allowed to have whatever you want as a playable race. Don't listen to anyone that tells you that it's selfish or immoral cause that's pure opinion not fact. The DM is the one that creates the world and if you don't like Dragonborn or any other race in the book then you do not have to allow them even if players want them. Players are not supposed to be whining little children.

          You are doing them the favor by taking up your time and creating the game in order for them to play in. Sit down and tell them what you are allowing and not allowing before anyone starts making characters. If someone whines cause they can't play a certain race then tell them to pick another, if they really want to play they will choose another. If you don't want to allow humans because you don't like them then go for it.

          If you shove in a race that you don't like then most of the time that race will feel like it in your world. I amm assuming that since you don't like Dragonborn then you haven't invested any time in learning about them in depth, so if this is true then just sticking them in there could ruin your game. If you allow everyone to play a beholder then that is perfectly fine as well. There is nothing in the books that say you have to allow anything, it doesn't make you any less of a DM to allow or disallow anything.

        I still can't believe I read that some people were saying that you would be selfish by not allowing it.




I can't believe I read what you just wrote. Worst DM attitude ever. You aren't doing anyone a favor by DMing. You are just another player at the table, same as any of the PCs. You are there because you enjoy gaming. Your pleasure is no more important than theirs. Your desires no more important than theirs. If you outright ban races because you don't like them, all you are doing is convincing players that they should not play with you. You are telling them that they don't have a stake in the narrative. But they do. Its a communal narrative. The DM is only one of the storytellers at the table. They may or may not end up playing anyway. That depends on a large number of factors. But you have certainly seen to it that your players will have less fun. And why? Because of a false sense of entitlement, as far as I can tell from your post...



Xun, a DM without a group is but a lonely man playing with himself in a dark basement, consoling himself by writing bad fanfiction.

you're entirely in your right to disallow a race, but know the players are within theirs to walk out if they feel like it.
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
Wait, I'm not sure that I understand.  It's wrong (morally?) for me to take something out of the game that I don't like?



          As the DM you are allowed to have whatever you want as a playable race. Don't listen to anyone that tells you that it's selfish or immoral cause that's pure opinion not fact. The DM is the one that creates the world and if you don't like Dragonborn or any other race in the book then you do not have to allow them even if players want them. Players are not supposed to be whining little children.

          You are doing them the favor by taking up your time and creating the game in order for them to play in. Sit down and tell them what you are allowing and not allowing before anyone starts making characters. If someone whines cause they can't play a certain race then tell them to pick another, if they really want to play they will choose another. If you don't want to allow humans because you don't like them then go for it.

          If you shove in a race that you don't like then most of the time that race will feel like it in your world. I amm assuming that since you don't like Dragonborn then you haven't invested any time in learning about them in depth, so if this is true then just sticking them in there could ruin your game. If you allow everyone to play a beholder then that is perfectly fine as well. There is nothing in the books that say you have to allow anything, it doesn't make you any less of a DM to allow or disallow anything.

        I still can't believe I read that some people were saying that you would be selfish by not allowing it.




I can't believe I read what you just wrote. Worst DM attitude ever. You aren't doing anyone a favor by DMing. You are just another player at the table, same as any of the PCs. Your pleasure is no more important than theirs. Your desires no more important than theirs. If you outright ban races because you don't like them, all you are doing is convincing players that they should not play with you. You are telling them that they don't have a stake in the narrative. But they do. Its a communal narrative. The DM is only one of the storytellers at the table. They may or may not end up playing anyway. That depends on a large number of factors. But you have certainly seen to it that your players will have less fun. And why? Because of a false sense of entitlement, as far as I can tell from your post...





            Please explain to me what makes your opinion any better than mine?
Xun, a DM without a group is but a lonely man playing with himself in a dark basement, consoling himself by writing bad fanfiction.

you're entirely in your right to disallow a race, but know the players are within theirs to walk out if they feel like it.



         I don't know about you but the people I game with are friends.
Xun, a DM without a group is but a lonely man playing with himself in a dark basement, consoling himself by writing bad fanfiction.

you're entirely in your right to disallow a race, but know the players are within theirs to walk out if they feel like it.



I don't know about you but the people I game with are friends.



just because you're friends with someone doesn't mean they have to play D&D with you.

the only people in my D&D group i usually hang out with happen to be the people i live with, whom i met through the FLGS we play D&D and M:tG at. on a rare occasion we'd go out for pizza or whatnot, but outside of gamenight, we don't talk much.

same with my buddies from work... they don't have anything to do with my D&D group.

my point still stands though.
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2

Please explain to me what makes your opinion any better than mine?



Mine doesn't harm the people I play with. If I don't like a race, I talk it out with them. If I would really harm the fun of the people I am playing with by disallowing something, I try and bend. If I feel my setting would be compromised by the change, I choose a different setting to run with the help of my players. If the setting they want me to run just wouldn't be fun for me to run, I politely explain that. I then offer them a choice to bend a little as well. If they can not bend and have fun, I offer one of them the chance to DM. I don't act like some sort of authoritarian dictator. That is what makes my opinion better than yours.

Your opinion is immoral. The definition of immoral that I am using is "not conforming to accepted morality," in this case accepted morality being "don't hurt others for your own benefit," and thus "don't act in a selfish manner." My opinion isn't immoral. It takes the desires of everyone at the table into consideration. That is what makes my opinion better than yours.
Neither i like them, as i don't like goliath. But if you let players play what they want they'll be more happy. Since 2 of my 6 players come from wow, however, i had to explain them that in my enviroment orcs aren't the shamanistic and honorable race of the game but bloodthirsty villains. So i actually forbidden to play orcs (but not 1/2 orcs) and minotaurs. But i did this only to make them detach from that setting

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

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Wait, so it is morally wrong to disallow dragonborn because I don't like them?  Some people are saying yes; others are saying no.



You are asking a question about morality. As everyone has a different perspective, every answer is going to give you a slightly different take.

You did not question your decision to remove Dragonborn until a player brought it up, therefore, you obviously had no no moral qualms about it. On the other hand, the player who brought it up obviously wanted the ability to play Dragonborn as an option. From their perspective, your actions are wrong, as it takes something out of the core game books and forbids it just because you don't like it.

While you may find Dragonborn weird and exotic, the inhabitants of the default setting do not. If you read the Dragonborn entry in the PHB, Dragonborn have a good reputation. Their empire was opposed by a human empire that had sold its souls to otherworldly demons in exchange for power (the ancestors of the Tieflings). After the fall of their empire, they gained a reputation for honorable conduct, valor in combat, and a passion for excellence. One of their racial bonuses is Charisma, which means they are as majestic as they are fearsome.

In the Forgotten Realms, inhabitants have had about a hundred years to get used to the presence of Dragonborn, and the Realms is a pretty cosmopolitan place, anyway. In Eberron, the Dragonborn have been around for a long while, even if they are rarely encountered outside of Argonessa. And Eberron is even more accepting of "the different" than San Francisco

In the end, do you truly believe that it is right for you to limit your players from being Dragonborn because you think they are too exotic or weird? Where does that leave Tieflings, Half-Orcs, Shifters, Goliaths, Deva, Minotaurs, Wilden, Githzerai, Drow, Genasi, Changelings and Warforged? Those races, heck, even the Eladrin, could all be considered "weird / exotic." All but the last four are published in Player's Handbooks, with Minotaurs, Wilden and Githzerai coming in the PHB3 in March. Where does your opinion stop and the fun begin? If we take your "weird / exotic" argument to the logical conclusion, you might as well tell all your players that they can only be human.

If you want to tell a story and not make any allowances for the preferences of your friends, write a book. If you want to tell a story with your friends, and not in spite of them, then you are going to need to make some allowances. You are a DM. Your only responibility is to make sure that everyone around the table has fun. You have absolutely no responsibility to the game world, WotC, the published adventures, or even the story you want to tell. All of those things take a back seat to fun. Your players will want to do things that aren't planned for by WotC, the authors of the adventures, the designers of the worlds, or you. It is your job to find a way to let the players do the kinds of things they want to do. If enabling your friends to have a good time isn't fun for you, then maybe DM isn't the job for you.

Xun, a DM without a group is but a lonely man playing with himself in a dark basement, consoling himself by writing bad fanfiction.

you're entirely in your right to disallow a race, but know the players are within theirs to walk out if they feel like it.



I don't know about you but the people I game with are friends.



just because you're friends with someone doesn't mean they have to play D&D with you.

the only people in my D&D group i usually hang out with happen to be the people i live with, whom i met through the FLGS we play D&D and M:tG at. on a rare occasion we'd go out for pizza or whatnot, but outside of gamenight, we don't talk much.

same with my buddies from work... they don't have anything to do with my D&D group.

my point still stands though.



               I've been gaming with the same group for 15 years and sure they may gripe and complain if I run a game and I don't allow something they may like they just pick something else they like. Since we are friends there is no "Well if you won't let me play a dragonborn then I won't play in your game", that right there is what seven year olds do not a group of grown men and women. I am still playing and DMing with the same group so apparently there isn't a problem. So now where is your argument to that?
Let's look at it from another perspective.

Original Poster, imagine that a friend of yours was going to run a game.  Now, pick a race you'd like to play.  Now, imagine how you'd feel if your friend said 'No, you can't play one.  No real reason, I just don't like them'.

Seems like a raw deal to me.  There's a reason the DMG says you should Say Yes to a player whenever possible.

If you don't like Dragonborn, then don't play one.  But 'I don't like it, so you can't play it' is extremely selfish behavior and thinking that the whole game revolves around you is a sure sign of a bad DM.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Basically it sounds like people play with you, Xun, because they cannot find a DM that lets them play what they want.

That's all I'm getting from reading your posts. If that's not what you meant, you aren't getting your point across I'm afraid... thinking you are more important to the game because you are the DM is really bad form, and disrespectful to your friends, who also want to enjoy the game to the fullest, not just to the amount of fun you'll give them.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.

         I don't know about you but the people I game with are friends.



Being friends does not mean they'll take everything you decide without having an opinion about it. If their opinion about it is bad enough, they'll leave the group for that particular game.

Don't see where friendship ends in that equation.



         Okay what if you had a friend that only played a Troll back in 3.5 and refuses to play anything else in 4.0 except a troll are you going to take the appropriate steps to allow him to play a troll in 4.0?
What if the DM says, "No dragonborn" in his houserules because they don't fit into his setting?  I hardly see that as a mark of being a bad DM.
Basically it sounds like people play with you, Xun, because they cannot find a DM that lets them play what they want.

That's all I'm getting from reading your posts. If that's not what you meant, you aren't getting your point across I'm afraid... thinking you are more important to the game because you are the DM is really bad form, and disrespectful to your friends, who also want to enjoy the game to the fullest, not just to the amount of fun you'll give them.



  If you would actually take the time and read my post you will see where I play and DM with the same group. If they didn't want me to DM they would asking someone else.
Okay what if you had a friend that only played a Troll back in 3.5 and refuses to play anything else in 4.0 except a troll are you going to take the appropriate steps to allow him to play a troll in 4.0?



Of course. I even have a Vampire in my current game (Human Feylock by mechanics.)
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Since we are friends there is no "Well if you won't let me play a dragonborn then I won't play in your game", that right there is what seven year olds do not a group of grown men and women.



Wow, sorry, you are a... no, I won't stoop to your level. It's just breathtaking yet again.

Seriously, calling someone childish because you deny him his wishes and he decides to sit one out? That, my good sir, is childish beyond measure. It's everyones own decision how much he invested into playing a specific character. Would you call someone childish because he breaks a tear after having his character die after 8 years togehter? If not, why do you call someone childish who does not participate in a game because you won't let him play his character?

Sure there is a double standard art work here. Wow, just freaking wow. Wow.



              You really need to go back and read my post again because your reading comprehension is a little lacking.
I've been gaming with the same group for 15 years and sure they may gripe and complain if I run a game and I don't allow something they may like they just pick something else they like. Since we are friends there is no "Well if you won't let me play a dragonborn then I won't play in your game", that right there is what seven year olds do not a group of grown men and women. I am still playing and DMing with the same group so apparently there isn't a problem. So now where is your argument to that?



Your friends have done you a disservice. After 15 years of you walking all over them, and treating them like crap, they have convinced you that your role as a DM entitles you to do whatever you want. Had they walked out of a few of your games, they may have tought you to treat them a little better. Personally, I think its their loss.

Me, I play games to have fun. If the DM isn't running the game in a manner that makes the game fun for me, I have no desire to play in their game. End of story. That doesn't mean I am going to throw a hissy fit. It does mean that I will tell the DM that one of their choices is really infringing on my ability to enjoy the game. If they are not willing to meet me half-way (which, please note, means that I am willing to meet them half-way), making some concesions for the sake of my enjoyment, then their game isn't for me. That doesn't make me (or anyone who thinks the way I do) a child. That makes me an adult capable of deciding how to best manage my time. Playing in a game that isn't fun for me isn't the best way to manage my time.
Of course. I even have a Vampire in my current game (Human Feylock by mechanics.)



   Please explain in detail.
I've been gaming with the same group for 15 years and sure they may gripe and complain if I run a game and I don't allow something they may like they just pick something else they like. Since we are friends there is no "Well if you won't let me play a dragonborn then I won't play in your game", that right there is what seven year olds do not a group of grown men and women. I am still playing and DMing with the same group so apparently there isn't a problem. So now where is your argument to that?



Your friends have done you a disservice. After 15 years of you walking all over them, and treating them like crap, they have convinced you that your role as a DM entitles you to do whatever you want. Had they walked out of a few of your games, they may have tought you to treat them a little better. Personally, I think its their loss.

Me, I play games to have fun. If the DM isn't running the game in a manner that makes the game fun for me, I have no desire to play in their game. End of story. That doesn't mean I am going to throw a hissy fit. It does mean that I will tell the DM that one of their choices is really infringing on my ability to enjoy the game. If they are not willing to meet me half-way (which, please note, means that I am willing to meet them half-way), making some concesions for the sake of my enjoyment, then their game isn't for me. That doesn't make me (or anyone who thinks the way I do) a child. That makes me an adult capable of deciding how to best manage my time. Playing in a game that isn't fun for me isn't the best way to manage my time.



 
              LOL!!!! WoW you are funny.
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