Do you think we will see 4.5 soon?

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             Here is my opinion on the possability of 4.5 coming soon. There has been such much errata coming through which has changed a lot of the rules and such. I believe more is coming soon and we will have a repeat of the previous edition. There will be so many changes coming that I believe they will come out with 4.5 which will be just corrections to the game.

            In my opinion I don't see WoTc making the internet as the only place to get errata. I believe the errata is causing a domino effect in which the designers aren't fully aware of. Let's face it, there are so many options such as powers, feats and magic items out there that the designers can't look at them all from each and every angle. 

            What I am seeing is they are having to nerf because of nerf and I believe there is going to be drastic changes that will require the system to be updated to 4.5. Of course this is just my opinion.
How many (as in which) rules have been changed? Powers and feats have been changed but rules???
While the devs have stated "there will be NO 4.5", they also said, "there will be NO 4E", so I don't take the dev's word for anything. HOWEVER....in the event that a 4.5 should come about, I really don't expect to see it until at least 2012 or 2013. And even then, I would more likely expect a 5E than a 4.5. As long as they can keep the balanced backbone that 4E has, they can continue to modify/errata to their heart's content. It would be nice if future runs of published books contained the errata/modifications, but it's not a perfect world, so I don't expect perfection.
At this point the errata is far less that 3.5 and that edition caused a massive outcry, so I don't think that 4.5 would happen any time soon if at all.
How many (as in which) rules have been changed? Powers and feats have been changed but rules???

Lets see, battle rage vigor, sheath, and double weapons. That's all I remember.
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While the devs have stated "there will be NO 4.5", they also said, "there will be NO 4E", so I don't take the dev's word for anything. HOWEVER....in the event that a 4.5 should come about, I really don't expect to see it until at least 2012 or 2013. And even then, I would more likely expect a 5E than a 4.5. As long as they can keep the balanced backbone that 4E has, they can continue to modify/errata to their heart's content. It would be nice if future runs of published books contained the errata/modifications, but it's not a perfect world, so I don't expect perfection.



I have had a though for the last few days that 4e is just the practice run at this point... like they have all the work on a giant database, as they update the problems, they are also working on new whole system changes that go with them... and all of that is leading to the aanouncment in 2012-2013 of a new 5e that will be mostly just modfied 4e (ala 1e-2e) with them needing very little 'new' work on it (maybe cutting to half the staff) and still keep putting out new books...

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I doubt they will, it would likely piss off a lot of fans. However, there's a part of me that wants 4.5, maybe then will I fully convert. Wink
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I'm not so sure we will ever see a 4.5. With all the errata, it would seem a waste of time on the dev's parts to go ahead a redo the rules when they just spent so long redoing the rules. Seems like the errata are an attempt to avoid a 4.5. Though, I could see them re-releasing books with the updated information printed inside.
I doubt they will, it would likely piss off a lot of fans. However, there's a part of me that wants 4.5, maybe then will I fully convert. Wink



WotC has never had a problem pissing off D&D fans. They did it with the change to 3E. They did it again (only worse) with the switch to 3.5E. They REALLY did it with the switch to 4E. While there are ardent supporters of all editions, I do wonder how many gave up D&D during the WotC years due to their tendency to change the game.
I'm not so sure we will ever see a 4.5. With all the errata, it would seem a waste of time on the dev's parts to go ahead a redo the rules when they just spent so long redoing the rules. Seems like the errata are an attempt to avoid a 4.5. Though, I could see them re-releasing books with the updated information printed inside.


This is probably what they'll do.  Maybe as a Rules Cyclopedia style collection, maybe just reprinting the books with errata in them and not saying anything (which is what I think they might be doing right now...)
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Soon?  Nah?  Eventually?  Maybe.  I'd guess we'd see a 5th Edition instead though.

Here is my opinion on the possability of 4.5 coming soon. There has been such much errata coming through which has changed a lot of the rules and such. I believe more is coming soon and we will have a repeat of the previous edition. There will be so many changes coming that I believe they will come out with 4.5 which will be just corrections to the game.


Nah, I think the willingness to continually errata negates any need for a 4.5.  They've been willing to make some pretty major changes - I don't think they need a new "half" edition, though some people are going to feel we have it anyways when there are enough changes in the errata for the core books.

EDIT: I think someone else had a good point - we'll likely get an edition printed with all of the "updates" included up to that point.  If those are enough changes, I think some people will call it at 4.5 - but I don't think WotC will do so officially.

In my opinion I don't see WoTc making the internet as the only place to get errata. I believe the errata is causing a domino effect in which the designers aren't fully aware of. Let's face it, there are so many options such as powers, feats and magic items out there that the designers can't look at them all from each and every angle.

What I am seeing is they are having to nerf because of nerf and I believe there is going to be drastic changes that will require the system to be updated to 4.5. Of course this is just my opinion.


I'm not sure what you're specifically referencing here.  Specifically a "domino effect" that the designers "aren't fully aware of", or "nerf because of nerf."
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Soon?  Nah?  Eventually?  Maybe.  I'd guess we'd see a 5th Edition instead though.

Here is my opinion on the possability of 4.5 coming soon. There has been such much errata coming through which has changed a lot of the rules and such. I believe more is coming soon and we will have a repeat of the previous edition. There will be so many changes coming that I believe they will come out with 4.5 which will be just corrections to the game.


Nah, I think the willingness to continually errata negates any need for a 4.5.  They've been willing to make some pretty major changes - I don't think they need a new "half" edition, though some people are going to feel we have it anyways when there are enough changes in the errata for the core books.

In my opinion I don't see WoTc making the internet as the only place to get errata. I believe the errata is causing a domino effect in which the designers aren't fully aware of. Let's face it, there are so many options such as powers, feats and magic items out there that the designers can't look at them all from each and every angle.

What I am seeing is they are having to nerf because of nerf and I believe there is going to be drastic changes that will require the system to be updated to 4.5. Of course this is just my opinion.


I'm not sure what you're specifically referencing here.  Specifically a "domino effect" that the designers "aren't fully aware of", or "nerf because of nerf."




                  When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.
I doubt they will, it would likely piss off a lot of fans. However, there's a part of me that wants 4.5, maybe then will I fully convert.



WotC has never had a problem pissing off D&D fans. They did it with the change to 3E. They did it again (only worse) with the switch to 3.5E. They REALLY did it with the switch to 4E. While there are ardent supporters of all editions, I do wonder how many gave up D&D during the WotC years due to their tendency to change the game.



hmm... you do have a point. Now that I think about, the whole PDF fiasco pissed off a lot of people as well...
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When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.


I guess I just don't see it.  I see some larger adjustments that require changing a handful of things, and I see a few shifts in design, but not really any examples of "fixing something and not knowing how that fix will affect something else".
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When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.


I think that was an issue much more in 3E hence the reason that a 3.5E had to be made.  There were too many individual systems in order to balance everything.  They did an admiral job, but the system eventually become too unwieldly.

I find the errata for 4E to be mostly clarifications with a couple of actual rules rewrites.  This may mean an eventual reissuance of the core books that will include the errata, but I don't think we'll see a 4.5E.
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When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.


I guess I just don't see it.  I see some larger adjustments that require changing a handful of things, and I see a few shifts in design, but not really any examples of "fixing something and not knowing how that fix will affect something else".




           By what they did to double weapons they dropped the Tempest Fighter down a level and made the two-handed fighter even better because the two handed fighter can remain 100% a two handed fighter and gain some of the Tempest Fighter abilites at the same time. By allowing things like the Urgrosh to be used two handed as well as a double weapon has opened up some doors that I don't think the designers expected.
When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.


I think that was an issue much more in 3E hence the reason that a 3.5E had to be made.  There were too many individual systems in order to balance everything.  They did an admiral job, but the system eventually become too unwieldly.

I find the errata for 4E to be mostly clarifications with a couple of actual rules rewrites.  This may mean an eventual reissuance of the core books that will include the errata, but I don't think we'll see a 4.5E.




             I don't think they would have had such a problem if they had better control of magic items. I think maybe 90% of the problems come from magic item abuse.



                  When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.



I'm not sure that's true. I mean, the most things they nerf are things are generally too strong, making them no brainers or just re-writing the rules so they make more sense. The only REALLY questionable thing was the Avengers in cloth thing, and I think that was a fluff thing that snuck by them without thinking.



                  When the designers come out with errata I believe they don't weigh out all of the options because I believe they have to few people to look at everything at every angle. When they "fix" something the domino effect is usually while trying to "fix" one thing the repercussions are that it requires something else to be nerfed because of the previous nerf.  It's like fixing something and not knowing how that fix will effect something else.



I'm not sure that's true. I mean, the most things they nerf are things are generally too strong, making them no brainers or just re-writing the rules so they make more sense. The only REALLY questionable thing was the Avengers in cloth thing, and I think that was a fluff thing that snuck by them without thinking.




       They are worried about clothes when you still have Wizards out there that can still lock down enemies to the point of broken. This I don't really understand.
I don't really get the point of the stout property in the  first place, except to make the Whirling Barb maybe favour double weapons more for Howling Strike?

If they got rid of a stout, a fighter could atleast take 1-handed weapon talent and get +1 to both ends of a double axe, or a number of the other double weapons.

Beyond that, its definitely nice to see doublesword is no longer the best rogue weapon by far.
So, to sum up this thread: "We've seen changes to rule for one fighter build, the stealth skill, and a handful of powers.  Therefore, 4.5 is likely to occur soon with a complete rewrite of the entire system."

........I'm going to go with a negatory response.  A very low quality episode of Xun Complains About 4th Edition, this be.  Maybe the writers are getting burnt out.
By what they did to double weapons they dropped the Tempest Fighter down a level and made the two-handed fighter even better because the two handed fighter can remain 100% a two handed fighter and gain some of the Tempest Fighter abilites at the same time. By allowing things like the Urgrosh to be used two handed as well as a double weapon has opened up some doors that I don't think the designers expected.


Wait, doesn't that cut both ways?  I understand that the Tempest has been "knocked down a level" (or really, the double sword has - I honestly don't quite know why they went the direction they did with it), but can't he now pick up two-handed feats/powers like the two-handed fighter can pick up tempest powers?

I'm not seeing that much of a problem with, for example, the Urgosh.  An off-hand weapon and Defensive seem a pretty fair trade for Brutal 2 and High Crit (without spending a feat for it).  It's incredibly feat intensive to get that off-hand weapon up to par with the axe end, too (and adding on real two-weapon feat benefits costs even more).

New options?  Sure.  Problems?  I'm not so sure.  Unforeseen?  Not to any reasonable degree, I think.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
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Xun, I'll be blunt and say what I've said in every 4.5e conspiracy thread.

There will be no 4.5e. Anyone thinking otherwise is a fool, an idiot, wears tinfoil hats on a regular basis, or all three at once. Simply because a 4.5e would basically be akin to taking six grenades, tying all the pins so that a single string can remove every single pin, taping the grenades around one's head, and then pulling the grenades.

It's stupid, needlessly complicated, and will do nothing besides send them to the grave in an untimely and messy fashion.

P.S: Tempest Fighters are still good. Very much so.
There will never be a 4.5e.  There will one day be a 5e.  That day is 5 - 10 years away.

Unlike the vocal minority that complains about online errata, WotC has embraced the Internet age, and will be using it and future books such as PHB3+ (really 2+ as we've already seen) and the Power source books to publish all errata, without there ever being a need for a half edition.
There will definitely be another edition of D&D, assuming the game survives the marketplace till the next iteration (which I'm sure it will). I'm not certain about the years but say 1975 - 2007 or something you had 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th. So maybe by 2011-12 we should see 5e. It's inevitable. You can see 4e is even starting to wind down - PHB3 - psionics - this stuff traditionally appears at the end cycle of an edition, maybe a year or two after that and you have the next iteration. Of course I don't think this is a bad thing. Keeps the game interesting and the game financially healthy/viable. D&D believes in reincarnation!
4e is also far less broken as a whole than 3.0, which was fundamentally flawed. Any changes that do need to be made to 4e can be done, for the most part, without shaking the very foundation of the game and how it works (just a power here, a feature there, an item there, a math adjustment there, etc.). That was not true of 3.0 (partial actions, anyone?).
If 4.5 comes out, I won't spend a single cent on it.
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       They are worried about clothes when you still have Wizards out there that can still lock down enemies to the point of broken. This I don't really understand.



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Just as a point of clarification, no 3e developer ever said there would never be a 4th edition.  That insidious internet meme came up because an ORC (when they were called WizOs) said he was unaware of a 4th edition being planned and didn't think there'd be one.  But ORCs are not privy to product development.

No developer ever said there was no 4th edition being planned.  It never happened.   

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              Get over it.
I have had a though for the last few days that 4e is just the practice run at this point... like they have all the work on a giant database, as they update the problems, they are also working on new whole system changes that go with them... and all of that is leading to the aanouncment in 2012-2013 of a new 5e that will be mostly just modfied 4e (ala 1e-2e) with them needing very little 'new' work on it (maybe cutting to half the staff) and still keep putting out new books...


I wouldn't call an edition that lasts from 2008 to 2013 "a practice run", but I think this unfounded theory is at least plausible. 

I also agree that at some point, when the errata becomes sufficiently voluminous, people will start declaring that we have a 4.5, but I doubt Wizards is ever going to announce an official 4.5.  Since the Digitial Initiative automatically incorporates errata, for many people, it's a seamless update.

I have a feeling that, just as PHB 2 had a section for rules changes, so will PHB 3 and PHB 4, etc.  Maybe some set of changes will be so massive that people will consider it an 4.5, just as some people think of Unearthed Arcana (1985) as 1.5, and some people see the Powers & Options Books (1997) as 2.5.  Heck, I've heard people call Book of Nine Swords 3.75... and others call Pathfinder that as well.

The x.5 is a third edition phenomenon and one that was caused by factors unique to that game, specifically Wizards' need to get out a product quickly after purchasing D&D from TSR.  They didn't have years to get a game prepped, so they did the best they could in the short time they had and then made a massive revision once they had time to breathe.  That's not the case with 4e, as far as I can tell.
Errata makes a 4.5 needless.  I'd say earliest for 5e would be 2012 or 2013, with 2015 I think being the most plausbile timeline for 5e.
Personally I havent seen enough changes to require a 4.5.  There are changes, but the only true mechanical change that effects everyone in the stealth change.  which was already reprinted in the PHB2 because it was big enough to actually make it into a book.

The main thing I see here is that 4e is still playable right out of the box, with no errata or changes at all.  Its better with the errata (or for xun who got nerfed: not better) but still playable.

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Do you think we will see 4.5 soon?

No.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Would errata have made 3.5 needless?
I'm curious as to your answer.
Someone who cares more than I could compare the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 with the original 4e books and the issued errata, to try to determine how they compare.

I say either one could go either way, or both.




No.  The changes made in the transition from 3E to 3.5E were much more comprehensive in scope, hence the reason for the change in the first place.  We have seen nothing on that scale at this time which would show us that we need a change of edition on the scale of 3.5E.  The majority of the errata are clarifications which can certainly make it into a future printing (thus making it an attractive purchase for those of us who already purchased the books).
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You guys can get worked up over the wierdest stuff.

I would say that the way Errata is handled now, is totally different from the 3e days.

During the course of 3e, they stuck their fingers into their ears really hard making their ears bleed. Then they blindfolded themselves, and started screaming LALALALALALALALALALALLALALALALALALA whenever someone would bring up the real problems with the game.

And that would be the Casters. Instead they focused on nebulous not nearly as big of issues like sentence structure, etc with their errata. changing very little with the game itself and doing nothing to really clarify or solve the many Actual issues with the game.

The .5 due to the massive sentence changing and grammar changing of the errata up to that point, was so that everyone was reading the same sentences. And slight tweaks to the system that a certain crew of Morons who should be struck out of all game design created and made into such an unholy abomination that frankly there was no way to make it work properly short of burning it to the ground and starting over.

Wotc to go with this had little to no real experience with RPGs up to this point and how to properly design things for those types of games.

3.5 was a special mess of failures, combined together in a perfect ****storm, who's circumstances are unlikely to be replicated ever again unless D&D leaves the hands of Wotc.

The 4e equivalent to Casters? Blade Cascade. They got right on Blade Cascade. The Errata for 4e has been much more meaningful to what it does to the system than what even the so called ".5 edition" did with Third.

I don't think there will be a .5 e for 4th. The system is constructed in a totally different way that can actually be smoothed out later as issues come out, on the fly without butchering previous content, and the errata to go with it is much better now than what existed in 3rd.

The Devs never ever said "there will be no 4th" and infact the Orc who is so often misquoted that said "there will be no fourth!" actually said "4th edition will not be released this year." If I recall the quote correctly. Which was I believe back in 07.
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No.  The changes made in the transition from 3E to 3.5E were much more comprehensive in scope, hence the reason for the change in the first place.  We have seen nothing on that scale at this time which would show us that we need a change of edition on the scale of 3.5E.  The majority of the errata are clarifications which can certainly make it into a future printing (thus making it an attractive purchase for those of us who already purchased the books).



In essence, it would be more like "4.1".
Fifth edition will be out in may 2016.  Wizards is going with the strategy of planning ahead.  One Player's Handbook every year, with the eight power sources planned before the Player's Handbook 1 was out.  My guess is that they already know much of the changes that will be needed for fifth edition.  They probably already envision sixth edition for may 2024.
Errata makes a 4.5 needless.


Would errata have made 3.5 needless?
I'm curious as to your answer.
Someone who cares more than I could compare the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 with the original 4e books and the issued errata, to try to determine how they compare.

I say either one could go either way, or both.




Erratta would not have been able to fix all the issues, then again 3.5 did not fix all the issues either.  About five months before 4e came out I had stopped playing dnd and had started playing NWOD. 3.5 fixed a lot more issues than we have seen so far, but did not address the core problems with the system.

If it's not one thing, it's the other...

If you are going to just be going "OMG, a new edition is going to come out and they aren't going to tell us" all the time, just as an excuse to stop buying, then you will be met with a self fullfilling prophecy.

I could care less if they make another edition RIGHT NOW or if they NEVER make another one. That's not even the point in playing the game, and it's not even something to worry about. One should enjoy the game that they have choosen to play, or find a different game, but to sit there and worry that they are going to 'change editions' on you is just silly as all heck.
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