Starting stats below 8: Is it a problem?

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In our group we do a custom stat system. Now in doing this we are allowed to have stats below an 8 and so far we have had no problems what so ever. Do you think it could be a problem?
No.
Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem.  Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman.  Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.

Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Its also a math thing, the game assumes you will have a total modifier in a certain range, it might not change much and it might change a lot. I'd rather not mess with something that works perfectly fine. Its better to just give out a few more points to build from than let modifiers go lower than -1.
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Then why are there negative modifiers in the PHB?
When I was DMing, I put in a houserule allowing players to "buy back" some points by lowering some of the 10s to 8s. I discouraged dropping stats any lower than that though.
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Then why are there negative modifiers in the PHB?


Because WotC doesn't care if you break your home game so long as your players have fun.  Some people find strangling themselves to be fun, but it's still probably a bad idea.  However allowing stats lower then 8 is less of a bad idea, and is your problem.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
In the end if you guys want to be min maxers just go ahead. I just don't think its an interesting enough option to make it worth the hassle.

And don't try to pretend otherwise, there's just nothing else to gain from dropping your stats lower than 8 other than the chance to get your other stats higher. The 'RP gain' is all pretty arbitrary and doesn't really change anything, unlease your voluntarily gimp one of your NAD so its paper thin, then you just get dazed/put to sleep/stunned a lot and at that point you're just wasting time rolling saving throws.
58292718 wrote:
I love Horseshoecrabfolk. What I love most about them is that they seem to be the one thing that we all can agree on.
See for yourself, click here!
Then why are there negative modifiers in the PHB?


Because WotC doesn't care if you break your home game so long as your players have fun.  Some people find strangling themselves to be fun, but it's still probably a bad idea.  However allowing stats lower then 8 is less of a bad idea, and is your problem.



And because that's the chart used to get the modifier for all stats, PC and monster, and there are monsters with stats below 8.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
And because that's the chart used to get the modifier for all stats, PC and monster, and there are monsters with stats below 8.


Ah yes, true.  I'd forgotton about that with monster stat inflation but some do still have really terrible modifiers.  You need something for your Zombies Arcana check. 
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.
Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem.  Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman.  Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.

Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.


+1

I've known players who absolutely refuse to have a negative modifier, which is fine. I've also known players who would tank three stats down to 1 to jack their important stats into 'the other PCs are my cohorts' territory. I'm sure some groups could handle sub-8s, but I wouldn't want to worry about the potential "You're min/maxing that 4 aren't you!" "No I'm not, I'm going to rp it!" "No you won't, Int 4 is ape-level!" "Nuh-uh, Int 4 is only mildly retarded!" "Yah-hah, you munchkin!" debates.

No thanks. 
I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.


It'd be pretty bad in both.  In combat you're important stats would be higher then expected giving bonuses across the board and access to all sorts of feats.  In skill challenges your characters couldn't fail at some checks and couldn't succeed at others.

Of course this assumes basic competence in character design.  If you don't have that the combat issues won't be that bad.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.


It'd be pretty bad in both.  In combat you're important stats would be higher then expected giving bonuses across the board and access to all sorts of feats.  In skill challenges your characters couldn't fail at some checks and couldn't succeed at others.

Of course this assumes basic competence in character design.  If you don't have that the combat issues won't be that bad.




                Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.
Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem.  Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman.  Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.

Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.


+1

I've known players who absolutely refuse to have a negative modifier, which is fine. I've also known players who would tank three stats down to 1 to jack their important stats into 'the other PCs are my cohorts' territory. I'm sure some groups could handle sub-8s, but I wouldn't want to worry about the potential "You're min/maxing that 4 aren't you!" "No I'm not, I'm going to rp it!" "No you won't, Int 4 is ape-level!" "Nuh-uh, Int 4 is only mildly retarded!" "Yah-hah, you munchkin!" debates.

No thanks. 




                  A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.
Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem.  Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman.  Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.

Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.




HAH!  Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels?  That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in.  And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control.....  So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity.  Bring on your uber characature.  See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller.   
That is one seriously messed up definition of a competent DM.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
HAH!  Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels?  That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in.  And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control.....  So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity.  Bring on your uber characature.  See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller.   


If you're just allowing them to make a character to prove you can use DM fiat to kill him you should quit DMing.

Yes you can kill someone with twinked stats with the infinate power you possess as a DM.  If you know the rules better then them you might even do it legitimately, without threatening anyone else in the party.  But the fact that your at the very best wasting everyone else in the rooms time with your pissing contest is 100% DM failure on your part.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
HAH!  Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels?  That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in.  And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control.....  So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity.  Bring on your uber characature.  See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller.   


If you're just allowing them to make a character to prove you can use DM fiat to kill him you should quit DMing.

Yes you can kill someone with twinked stats with the infinate power you possess as a DM.  If you know the rules better then them you might even do it legitimately, without threatening anyone else in the party.  But the fact that your at the very best wasting everyone else in the rooms time with your pissing contest is 100% DM failure on your part.



You said it much better than I could have (or did).  This post contains much win and wisdom.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.


My level 11 Human Bard's Diplomacy (+22) beats all Easy DCs, and pretty much aces most Moderate DCs (by most, I mean all except for the rare time I don't roll a 2/4/6 on levels 22-24/25-27/28-30). The only DCs he'd have a remote problem with are the 25th to 30th, and he can just throw up a Word of Friendship to make his check +27 and whip those ones too. Any Aid Anothers I can grab will only result in me humiliating the DC.

It's not that hard to pump up skill checks to awesome ridiculous levels.


A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.


Yes it is. Intelligence is not graded on an individual or species basis. Int 4 is int 4 no matter who possesses it, be they angels, apes, men, or a yappy dog.
That is one seriously messed up definition of a competent DM.




Sorry, it's a ROLE-playing game.  That means you get to deal with your flaws as well as your strengths.  All of this combined forms a story.  Afterall, you don't challenge someone by only presenting them with the situations their good at.  This aproach also has the happy side effect of discouraging such min-maxing in the future.

And the degree that you get messed with is also dependant upon how/why you have the lopsided stats you have. 

Ex#1; You roll up a sub-par stat via dice rolls.  Sure, at some point you'll run into encounters where you're struggling because of that poor stat.  Regardless, I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid putting those encounter types in the adventure. 

Ex#2; You come to me with an actual character concept in mind that has disadvantages.  You & I then both know that's going to be something that'll come up along the way.  It's planned to a degree.  For instance, I've one friend who likes to run frail elderly clerics burried under full plate & tower shields - even if he gets negatives due to age & lack of stats/feats reqiured to use that armour efficiently.  Why?  I don't know, it amuses him.
Btw, I've had several powergamers try & disguise their intentions this way.  I've got a very high "sense motive" score in real life.... 

EX#3; You're a min-maxer & have delusions that you don't need stats in something - like cha.  Or you think you have a dump stat.  Thus you buy these down as low as possible to get more pts for elswhere with an eye towards simply powergaming the system.  THIS activity attracts the notice of the "gods".....     
I think it would depend very heavily on the specific game.

In the game I'm in, I think low stats would be seriously detrimental. We do a LOT of social and other skill interaction. I've used every one of my stats except int. (Con for HP only.) Tradeoff, in the last year of the prior campaign and so far in this campaign we've NEVER had a combat against non-humanoids, and only rarely in a setting other than a city with a substantial human population. Does the fighter need decent charisma? Absolutely!

Obviously, the above is not a description of everyone's campaigns. If you spend all your time in wilderness, caverns, and ancient dungeons, going into a village every now and then to resupply, then you probably won't have a Miss Congeniality award.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I'm going to reference Tropic Thunder here, so please bear with me.  D&D is a game of heroic Fantasy.  It says so in the rulebook.  And we like seeing heroes be something special.  Now, here's the movie bit:  think back to every movie you've ever seen wherein a majorly flawed character has a lot of fan appreciation.  Of those characters, how many of them were so far below the human norm that they had major difficulty functioning?  Forrust Gump, for example was pretty fast and strong, and he wasn't intelligent, but he was fully capable of functioning in the normal world.  Remember, anything below 8 is on the outliers. Those that are hideously disfigured, severely developementally disabled, crippled, or otherwise encumbered.  Sure, they can be interesting, but in Rain Man, do you want to be Tom Cruise or Dustin Hoffman?
Feel free to grab a stat below 8, but you don't get any extra point-buy points for it. If you desperately want to have it, fine by me, but no extra credit Wink
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Sorry, it's a ROLE-playing game.


Simply saying it's a roleplaying game doesn't exclude you from giving the option of allowing someone to get a few more stat points and then relentlessly railing that person for their decisions. Challenge is one thing, being a jerkass is another.
Some people find strangling themselves to be fun, but it's still probably a bad idea. 


Just ask this guy.
Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.


My level 11 Human Bard's Diplomacy (+22) beats all Easy DCs, and pretty much aces most Moderate DCs (by most, I mean all except for the rare time I don't roll a 2/4/6 on levels 22-24/25-27/28-30). The only DCs he'd have a remote problem with are the 25th to 30th, and he can just throw up a Word of Friendship to make his check +27 and whip those ones too. Any Aid Anothers I can grab will only result in me humiliating the DC.

It's not that hard to pump up skill checks to awesome ridiculous levels.


A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.


Yes it is. Intelligence is not graded on an individual or species basis. Int 4 is int 4 no matter who possesses it, be they angels, apes, men, or a yappy dog.




               And you are a zoologist?
Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.


My level 11 Human Bard's Diplomacy (+22) beats all Easy DCs, and pretty much aces most Moderate DCs (by most, I mean all except for the rare time I don't roll a 2/4/6 on levels 22-24/25-27/28-30). The only DCs he'd have a remote problem with are the 25th to 30th, and he can just throw up a Word of Friendship to make his check +27 and whip those ones too. Any Aid Anothers I can grab will only result in me humiliating the DC.

It's not that hard to pump up skill checks to awesome ridiculous levels.


A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.


Yes it is. Intelligence is not graded on an individual or species basis. Int 4 is int 4 no matter who possesses it, be they angels, apes, men, or a yappy dog.




               And you are a zoologist?



He doesn't have to be dnd is not the real world. In dnd terms yes a person with a 4int would be about as stupid as an ape.  I'd rule you need at least an 8 to be able to read.  Characters with lower than 8 stats are not heroes.
There is no rule that says an int 4 ape is any different from int 4 anything. Don't need to be a zoologist.
Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.


My level 11 Human Bard's Diplomacy (+22) beats all Easy DCs, and pretty much aces most Moderate DCs (by most, I mean all except for the rare time I don't roll a 2/4/6 on levels 22-24/25-27/28-30). The only DCs he'd have a remote problem with are the 25th to 30th, and he can just throw up a Word of Friendship to make his check +27 and whip those ones too. Any Aid Anothers I can grab will only result in me humiliating the DC.

It's not that hard to pump up skill checks to awesome ridiculous levels.


A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.


Yes it is. Intelligence is not graded on an individual or species basis. Int 4 is int 4 no matter who possesses it, be they angels, apes, men, or a yappy dog.




               And you are a zoologist?



He doesn't have to be dnd is not the real world. In dnd terms yes a person with a 4int would be about as stupid as an ape.  I'd rule you need at least an 8 to be able to read.  Characters with lower than 8 stats are not heroes.




            Stats don't determine if you are a hero or not. You really need to get out of that mind set. You have a lot to learn when it comes to what makes a hero.
There is no rule that says an int 4 ape is any different from int 4 anything. Don't need to be a zoologist.




        There is also no rule there that states anything with a 4 Int is considered to have the mentality of an ape.

            Stats don't determine if you are a hero or not. You really need to get out of that mind set. You have a lot to learn when it comes to what makes a hero.



Exactly, just look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_U7k9JxZI&feature=related
Here's Int 4 for you:

"The stupidity of Ogres is legendary. Few Ogres can count to ten or build even the simplest tool or shelter, so they generally lair in caves or ruins and fight with clubs made from tree trunks. Some Ogres know a few words of Common, such as 'gold', 'kill' and 'mine'."



From the Monster Manual. Since stats are the same for each race, that's about what your Int 4 hero is capable of. He might be a hero sure, but he won't be able to make a coherent sentence.
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Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Here's Int 4 for you:

"The stupidity of Ogres is legendary. Few Ogres can count to ten or build even the simplest tool or shelter, so they generally lair in caves or ruins and fight with clubs made from tree trunks. Some Ogres know a few words of Common, such as 'gold', 'kill' and 'mine'."



From the Monster Manual. Since stats are the same for each race, that's about what your Int 4 hero is capable of. He might be a hero sure, but he won't be able to make a coherent sentence.



That's not even the least bit true. Chimera have full speech capabilities with an Int score of 5. The Chull at a Int Score of 4 fully are capabile of holding (for them) complex speeches with an int of 4.

Intelligence in D&D is not a benchmarch for speech. Intelligence simply is education and puzzle solving ability. That's all it ever is under this edition.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
Here's Int 4 for you:

"The stupidity of Ogres is legendary. Few Ogres can count to ten or build even the simplest tool or shelter, so they generally lair in caves or ruins and fight with clubs made from tree trunks. Some Ogres know a few words of Common, such as 'gold', 'kill' and 'mine'."



From the Monster Manual. Since stats are the same for each race, that's about what your Int 4 hero is capable of. He might be a hero sure, but he won't be able to make a coherent sentence.



That's not even the least bit true. Chimera have full speech capabilities with an Int score of 5. The Chull at a Int Score of 4 fully are capabile of holding (for them) complex speeches with an int of 4.

Intelligence in D&D is not a benchmarch for speech. Intelligence simply is education and puzzle solving ability. That's all it ever is under this edition.




               Exactly. You can have a person with low intelligence who may use only simple words but he can still talk and have conversation.
I wouldn't allow this for likely the same reason WotC went with 10s and one 8 for base stats. 4e is really prone to dump stats, with as many as 3 potential dump stats. You need three high for each of the defences and the rest could be 4s and you'd have a playable character. Allowing buy-backs for higher points just means you can pump-up the rest of your non-dump stats. 
It does affect your skills, but with DCs being so low, training should negate any problem and just focus on skills you're good at.  

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The conflict in this thread is the proof-in-the-pudding of why tanking stats can start to cause some very real disputes at the table. If an Int 4 only hinders the character when forced to make an Int related skill check (a task they could just as easily avoid with a score of 11 or 12 by always deferring to the Wizard with a 20) then they've gained points at no functional cost. So Chimeras vs Ogres vs Apes, what all is tied into Int? Sapience? Critical thinking? Problem solving? Literacy? Fluency? It's easy enough to agree that an Int 28 character is capable of some unfathomable mind games, after all there's no cap on any of the scores so we just take the benchmark of average and say "really far above average." It doesn't work as well in the other direction because there is a floor on all the scores: 0 is non-functioning/dead. So between average and dead what faculties do you lose when? When are you no longer capable of being awake for more than 3 hours at a time (Con) or carrying a grocery bag (Str) or relating to other living things (Wis) or using a fork and knife in tandem (Dex)? It's just a lot easier to add to the average than to take away from the average, partly because the system is so simplified. For example, empathy is broadly classed under Wisdom (Insight) but could just as well be considered a factor of Charisma as well, or all-together apart from the system as a function of personality rather than capacity (see Dr. Manhattan.) If we were talking about a universally low-statted person, say everything in the 4-7 range, we'd just strip off a bit of everything, or if they're split with say high Str/Con but low Int/Wis/Cha then they're basically Lennie Small. But what about 5 Int 22 Wis? Or Str/Con? 

For Monsters it's generally less important. You give an Ogre a 4 and point how legendary their stupidity is. they show up on stage, the PCs have an easy time tricking them, they move off stage. The 4 doesn't so much represent "exactly this stupid" as it does "as stupid as they need to be to make the scene work."

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
held his heart in his hands, and ate of it.
I said, "is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter – bitter," he answered;
"but I like it,
"beacuase it is bitter,
"and because it is my heart."

Beyond the above disagreement about what 4 Int means, I don't have a problem with it (other than "Why?  What are you gaining by being twice as stupid as the game assumes.").

Just don't forget the mechanical impact.  You could, theoretically, be trading what?  -3 to a few skills for +1 or +2 attack / damage, or +1 or +2 to rider effects?  That could be fine by you, or it could cause a problem (especially if the character is never going to use those skills in the first place), depending on how strick you are with attack modifiers.
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Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem.  Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman.  Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.

Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.


+1

I've known players who absolutely refuse to have a negative modifier, which is fine. I've also known players who would tank three stats down to 1 to jack their important stats into 'the other PCs are my cohorts' territory. I'm sure some groups could handle sub-8s, but I wouldn't want to worry about the potential "You're min/maxing that 4 aren't you!" "No I'm not, I'm going to rp it!" "No you won't, Int 4 is ape-level!" "Nuh-uh, Int 4 is only mildly retarded!" "Yah-hah, you munchkin!" debates.

No thanks. 



A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.


Interesting take on stats -- I've never heard it before.
There is also no rule there that states anything with a 4 Int is considered to have the mentality of an ape.


 Exactly -- nobody knows exactly what stats mean. You can apply your own definitions, but there'll be a hundred people to disagree with any given idea you have. I just started a multi-page debate, by merely mentioning a definition of a single ability score, so I'll rest my case.
getting to the OP question.  I could see it as a problem and in my games I would have the standard point buy.  I can go on the reason I could see it as a problem, but you have already answered your own question. 

You don't think it would be a problem and anyone who comes up with points, wether they be valid or not, you have a counter point to say its ok to start with less then 8 on stats.

You asked a question and people are giving you there thoughts.  Some might agree some might not.  Were you loking for a fight, or do you really want people's thoughts on the subject.

There is no right or wrong way to play this game, and if you want to play with stats lower then 8 go for it. Live the dream. 

I thinki it would be a bit more constructive for you if instead of trying to counter every point someone says just consider what there saying.

I have heard your arguments for starting lower then 8 and there are valid points, but other people have made valid points about not starting below and there right to.

Hopes this helps
Beyond the above disagreement about what 4 Int means, I don't have a problem with it (other than "Why?  What are you gaining by being twice as stupid as the game assumes.").

Just don't forget the mechanical impact.  You could, theoretically, be trading what?  -3 to a few skills for +1 or +2 attack / damage, or +1 or +2 to rider effects?  That could be fine by you, or it could cause a problem (especially if the character is never going to use those skills in the first place), depending on how strick you are with attack modifiers.


It's more then just +1 to attack and damage or riders.  Those 4 points could be spent upping unrelated secondaries so a character can combo feats that normal pointbuy would make prohibative. 

Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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