[EDH] Format Staples *NEW*

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This is an attempt at listing the format staples. Due to the many different generals of each color combination cards listed in your colors may not fit into your deck.


The following list of staples has been minimized to cards you’re really likely to want.

Colorless staples:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Mimic Vat
Oblivion Stone
Solemn Simulacrum
Mind's Eye
Duplicant
All is Dust
Reliquary Tower
Strip Mine
Temple of the False God

White staples:
Land Tax
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Return to Dust
Hallowed Burial
Austere Command
Kor Haven

Blue staples:
Mystical Tutor
Mana Drain
Fact or Fiction
Rite of Replication
Future Sight
Consecrated Sphinx
Academy Ruins

Black staples:
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Withered Wretch
Necropotence
Decree of Pain
Bojuka Bog
Cabal Coffers
Volrath's Stronghold

Red staples:
Chaos Warp
Anger
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Insurrection

Green staples:
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Eternal Witness
Genesis
Seedborn Muse
Mana Reflection
Primeval Titan

Multicolor staples:
Bant Charm
Vindicate
Memory Plunder
Mirari's Wake
Debtors' Knell
Angel of Despair

__________________________________________________________

The following is a list of really good cards.

Colorless:
Mana Crypt
Tormod's Crypt
Scroll Rack
Skullclamp
Extraplanar Lens
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun
Steel Hellkite
Wurmcoil Engine
Akroma's Memorial
Artisan of Kozilek
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Deserted Temple
Dust Bowl
High Market
Maze of Ith
Miren, the Moaning Well
Mystifying Maze
Thawing Glaciers
Vesuva
Wasteland

White:
Condemn
Enlightened Tutor
Luminarch Ascension
Stoneforge Mystic
Aven Mindcensor
Stonecloaker
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Marshal's Anthem
Archon of Justice
Karmic Guide
Reveillark
Rout
Stonehewer Giant
Akroma's Vengeance
Martyr's Bond
Sun Titan
Twilight Shepherd
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Reya Dawnbringer
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
 
Blue:
Lighthouse Chronologist
Willbender
Blue Sun's Zenith
Capsize
Hinder
Rhystic Study
Spell Crumple
Trinket Mage
Cryptic Command
Phyrexian Metamorph
Acquire
Bribery
Desertion
Mnemonic Wall
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Gather Specimens
Spelljack
Blatant Thievery
Chancellor of the Spires
Commandeer
Sphinx of Uthuun
 
Black:
Imperial Seal
Nihil Spellbomb
Animate Dead
Exsanguinate
Nezumi Graverobber
Necromancy
Phyrexian Arena
Praetor's Grasp
Syphon Mind
Damnation
Beacon of Unrest
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Puppeteer Clique
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Massacre Wurm
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Nirkana Revenant
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Phyrexian Tower
 
Red:
Imperial Recruiter
Starstorm
Reiterate
Chain Reaction
Into the Core
Wild Ricochet
Urabrask the Hidden
Inferno Titan
Warstorm Surge
Vicious Shadows
Bogardan Hellkite
Lavaball Trap
Blasphemous Act
Kher Keep
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
 
Green:
Green Sun's Zenith
Scavenging Ooze
Beast Within
Cultivate
Genesis Wave
Kodama's Reach
Krosan Grip
Acidic Slime
Primal Command
Restock
Deadwood Treefolk
Tooth and Nail
Terastodon
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Woodfall Primus
Gaea's Cradle
 
Multicolor:
Eladamri's Call
Lim-Dul's Vault
Saffi Eriksdotter
Aura Shards
Maelstrom Pulse
Pernicious Deed
Voidslime
Mystical Teachings
All Suns' Dawn
Fracturing Gust
Havengul Lich
Izzet Chronarch
Spitting Image
Conflux
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Kessig Wolf Run
Krosan Verge
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
__________________________________________________________

This is a list of cards socially discouraged in this format:
 
Identity Crisis
Mindslaver
Sorin Markov
Magister Sphinx
Myojin of Night's Reach
Obliterate
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Decree of Annihilation
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Time Stretch

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.

Wow! A list of staples....Why didn't anyone else think of this before?


 


Okay, seriously though...having read the whole thing your list actually isn't terrible, but you have some (very) weird choices that really stand out and make it hard to take you seriously. Vicious shadows being called a staple at all is questionable, even if you're recommending it to a mono-red deck (which is a color hungry for playables), and putting it in the top ten of all colors is just laughable. Right at the start of your post you've destroyed your credibility.


Obviously, not everyone is going to agree on much of anything when making a list like this, or even the definition of "staple" (see our previous attempts to run a community-nominated/voted list of staples), but you've listed some things that I doubt any single person in this forum would agree with (for example: magus of the disk as being anything better than....oh I dunno....10th best among white's numerous sweepers?)


What made you decide to post this?

I'm not sure if there are more examples than the two you've brought up but vicious shadows is extremely playable and magus of the disk is in the same color as reveillark which is the only reason it's playable.

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.

"extremely playable"? It basically does nothing. You play it, and during its lifespan a typical opponent might lose one or two of the 10-15 creatures in their entire deck and take 4-10 damage, and then it incidentally gets swept aside by an oblivion stone or austere command that was intended to wipe an army and get rid of a real threat, like mirari's wake or necropotence.


Yes I know this could be played immediately prior to a wrath effect of some sort for some big damage, but players are by nature always wary of potential wipes as they play. Shadows + sweeper is an expensive 2-card combo whose primary effect is already heavily combatted or at least mitigated by every decent opponent you're likely to face.


A more realistic best case scenario is an opponent trying to set up a recursion loop or abuse a token + skullclamp engine that now has to find a disenchant effect before they can go nuts...but that's narrow. You wouldn't call Teferi's Response a staple because an opponent might be running dust bowl, would you?

Compare it to other effects available at 7 mana, like cruel ultimatum or blatant thievery, which have an immediate impact that opponents can't just ignore. You've unquestionably gained considerable ground in terms of resources as soon as those spells resolve. Comparatively, vicious shadows is a very sub-par card that doesn't belong in a serious staple-list discussion.

Some other cards you're overvaluing:

Capsize
Venser, Shaper Savant
Bane of the Living
Word of Seizing
Creakwood Liege
Mystic Snake
Felidar Sovereign
Baneslayer Angel
Wispmare
Beacon of Immortality
Commandeer
Trickbind
Spin into Myth
Aquire
Reins of Power
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Corpse Connoisseur
Skeletal Vampire
Phyrexian Plagelord
Sudden Spoiling
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Skarrgan Firebird
Flametongue Kavu
Farhaven Elf
Yavimaya Elder
Krosan Tusker
Wickerbough Elder
Mold Shambler
Master of the Wild Hunt
Silklash Spider
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Firemane Angel
Saffi Eriksdotter
Decimate
Eladamri’s Call
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Crypt of Agadeem

You must not like the list in the sticky then, since you don't seem to be complaining that I've forgotten any staples you just seem to have a shorter range for what is called a staple.


Indeed EDH has a really small list of staples due to decks being built around different generals. I was expanding slightly and letting more cards in, but it's nowhere near as bad as the stickied topic.


Anyways Vicious shadows is an extremely good EDH card but I guess not if you don't play multiplayer.


I'll cut Crypt of Agadeem from the list though and think about the others. I would like your support for this to replace the awful stickied topic.

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.

You're right, I don't like the stickied thread. We actually had a community effort to make a more concise and up-to-date list. I was pretty happy with how it was going, both in terms of community involvement (at least 10 people were actively contributing throughout the discussion), and the results being close to what I thought they should be. Unfortunately it fizzled as it seems the guy who took charge disappeared, leaving his posts un-editable, and no one else volunteered to step up. You can read the threads yourself, if you're interested:


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


I play multiplayer almost exclusively, not sure why you'd assume otherwise, or for that matter, why it would make vicious shadows a better card. The more opponents you have taking a turn each round, the more board wipes resolve during any given time frame. This means players don't generally overcommit all their creatures to the board at once, and permanents (including enchantments) don't stay in play as long. I've seen Vicious shadows in action, twice actually....and it performed exactly as I expected it to both times. It did some mildly annoying amount of damage to a few players then disappeared (once because the caster died and once to a sweeper).


Expanding your range to include more cards on the list is one thing. Listing bad cards that shouldn't even make the top 100 in your top ten is another. Your list would need some drastic changes before I would support stickying it, but if you're willing to take charge of something similar to the aforementioned threads and promise to remain active on these forums, then I'll gladly participate.


Of the generals you mentioned, Zur is the only one I've played, although I might tinker with the others someday. I've certainly played against them all. I do tend to build my decks higher on the power curve than average, and play with a similarly-armed playgroup. This kind of thing is only douchebaggery in the wrong environment. When everyone participating has high-powered decks packing appropriate answers and tutors and has comparable play-skill, it's just very intense fun. I don't see how this makes me unqualified to judge cards and their effectiveness in this format. If anything, the opposite should be true.

I'm sorry, but Vicious Shadows works exactly as well as everyone ELSE thinks it does. Yes, it's a large target, yes, it makes players wary of how they are committing to the board, but that's a smart play.



It causes opponents to slow down their plays and stop playing aggressively and hold more cards in their hands. Especially control players. The great thing about this is Vicious Shadows ability to take 6 dead creatures and redirect their deaths into a fine laser beam to kill a single control player with a large hand.


If any card wasn't good because it can be killed with spot removal then we'd have a shitload less staples in EDH. The sad fact is... No. Vicious Shadows can be met with spot removal, but it's a great card to commit to the board. In fact, when I put it down in my Ashling deck, some players even protect it against the Sharuum deck with Darksteel Forge and a field full of artifacts. It's a great equalizer and it can be a sneaky way to get rid of a problem player.


Intruder Alarm is the same way. Most players immediately see it as a terrible threat that's going to bite them in the teeth, but in my experience, the player got to keep it out for 2 turns until he combo'd out and won, and we had little answers.


So yeah, it's a big target, but EDH is often about big targets, and played at the right time, Vicious Shadows can make a huge impact on the state of the game, which is more than you can say about several other cards.



And I'm sorry, Blatant Thievery and Cruel Ultimatum in my playgroup means a teamed-up face-smashing to the highest level.

Did you even read what I said?


I didn't say vicious shadows was a target, or that it sucks because it can be removed. In fact I said the opposite: it isn't good enough to draw spot removal, and it isn't reliable enough to expect anything significant from it before it disappears to a board wipe.


Cruel ultimatum and blatant thievery are the opposite. Cruel cripples an opponent and puts 4 new cards in your hand. Thievery gives you a bunch of the board's best permanents. IMMEDIATELY. They have a powerful, immediate, and non-dependant effect, and are much more difficult to answer as well.


The sorceries probably do draw hate. They're powerful enough to be worthy of it. Vicious shadows isn't.

Yeah, Vicious Shadows is not a "staple". It fits into some decks, but it's not in any way a staple card.


Sorry.

Whoever DOESN'T think Vicious shadows should be on the top ten list here is clearly not fond of WINNING EDH!

Vicious Shadows is far from a staple. Staple should mean, literally, if I am able to, I WILL play this card without fail. Staple: Swords to Plowshares. Good Card: Silence. Staple: Sol Ring. Good Card: Expedition Map.


Vicious Shadows is far from a staple. Staple should mean, literally, if I am able to, I WILL play this card without fail. Staple: Swords to Plowshares. Good Card: Silence. Staple: Sol Ring. Good Card: Expedition Map.




I would put Map at staple.

Silence is not really that good.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

I don't think Expedition Map is quite a staple; I've seen enough decks that, while they may have some nice lands, don't play anything so crucial as to devote a slot to tutoring for that land. It's good, but it's not an auto-include (especially in a green deck).


Sol Ring and Sensei's Divining Top are about the only artifacts that I'd say warrant mindless inclusion in everything. 

Considering it can find:
Tolarian Academy
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Academy Ruins
Cabal Coffers
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Mistveil Plans
Kor Haven

Mosswort Bridge
Gaea's Cradle
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Spinerock Knoll
Deserted Temple
Petrified Field
Reliquary Tower
Scrying Sheets
Strip Mine
Temple of the False God
Thawing Glaciers
Vesuva
Wasteland


Making it relevant at mostly all stages in the game in all decks that I could think of, I would call it a staple, or dangerously close.
And yes, colors are fun.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)


Considering it can find:
Tolarian Academy
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Academy Ruins
Cabal Coffers
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Mistveil Plans
Kor Haven

Mosswort Bridge
Gaea's Cradle
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Spinerock Knoll
Deserted Temple
Petrified Field
Reliquary Tower
Scrying Sheets
Strip Mine
Temple of the False God
Thawing Glaciers
Vesuva
Wasteland


Making it relevant at mostly all stages in the game in all decks that I could think of, I would call it a staple, or dangerously close.
And yes, colors are fun.





The map is absolutely amazing. I agree it should go into any deck that uses lands... which is most of them. I prefer it to wayfarers bauble for the simple facts you listed above, but will concede that a deck not running utility lands as part of the game plan should play the bauble instead.

3DH4LIF3

Comparing map to bauble is like comparing rampant growth to merchant scroll. Expedition map is NOT a mana accelerant, it's a tutor.


Comparing map to bauble is like comparing rampant growth to merchant scroll. Expedition map is NOT a mana accelerant, it's a tutor.





not at all. Both search for lands. The comparison can be made.

Compare Farhaven Elf with Civic wayfinder...


If I want to get technical, I'm actually contrasting the two in light of their comparisons. They have the same CMC, the same activation cost, same types... the difference is in the type of lands they can get and where they go.


 

3DH4LIF3



Considering it can find:
Tolarian Academy
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Academy Ruins
Cabal Coffers
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Mistveil Plans
Kor Haven

Mosswort Bridge
Gaea's Cradle
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Spinerock Knoll
Deserted Temple
Petrified Field
Reliquary Tower
Scrying Sheets
Strip Mine
Temple of the False God
Thawing Glaciers
Vesuva
Wasteland


Making it relevant at mostly all stages in the game in all decks that I could think of, I would call it a staple, or dangerously close.
And yes, colors are fun.





The map is absolutely amazing. I agree it should go into any deck that uses lands... which is most of them. I prefer it to wayfarers bauble for the simple facts you listed above, but will concede that a deck not running utility lands as part of the game plan should play the bauble instead.



Believe it or not, Map would slow down my current EDH deck. I'm even running Scion, and I just don't NEED it. I have enough shock and fetch lands that at any point, using Map would actually slow my game down (and this is a deck that can turn 3 Identity Crisis and turn five Tooth and Nail with entwine).


It just isn't necessary in every deck.



Comparing map to bauble is like comparing rampant growth to merchant scroll. Expedition map is NOT a mana accelerant, it's a tutor.





not at all. Both search for lands. The comparison can be made.

Compare Farhaven Elf with Civic wayfinder...


If I want to get technical, I'm actually contrasting the two in light of their comparisons. They have the same CMC, the same activation cost, same types... the difference is in the type of lands they can get and where they go.


 




Ew, that's not a fair comparison at all. Map can get a strip mine to stop academy ruins (or whatever), thawing glaciers if you're manascrewed, tolaria west if you need pact of negation, a token generator (kjeldoran outpost/kher keep) if you need repeated chump blockers, reliquary tower if your hand size is able to go epic, krosan verge to make your loam/crucible insane, phyrexian tower to give you a sac outlet to go with your debtor's knell, volrath's stronghold if there are creatures in your grave you really want back, heck, even emeria if you have 7 plains....civic wayfinder only gets basic lands (and is a pretty bad card in this format).


Point being, map can get you a host of different effects from your library depending on what the situation dictates, and act as a second copy of some unique and powerful cards. Sure sounds like a tutor to me.




Comparing map to bauble is like comparing rampant growth to merchant scroll. Expedition map is NOT a mana accelerant, it's a tutor.





not at all. Both search for lands. The comparison can be made.

Compare Farhaven Elf with Civic wayfinder...


If I want to get technical, I'm actually contrasting the two in light of their comparisons. They have the same CMC, the same activation cost, same types... the difference is in the type of lands they can get and where they go.


 




Ew, that's not a fair comparison at all. Map can get a strip mine to stop academy ruins (or whatever), thawing glaciers if you're manascrewed, tolaria west if you need pact of negation, a token generator (kjeldoran outpost/kher keep) if you need repeated chump blockers, reliquary tower if your hand size is able to go epic, krosan verge to make your loam/crucible insane, phyrexian tower to give you a sac outlet to go with your debtor's knell, volrath's stronghold if there are creatures in your grave you really want back, heck, even emeria if you have 7 plains....civic wayfinder only gets basic lands (and is a pretty bad card in this format).


Point being, map can get you a host of different effects from your library depending on what the situation dictates, and act as a second copy of some unique and powerful cards. Sure sounds like a tutor to me.




I wasn't saying compare the map to the way finder. Only that your example of Rampant growth to Merchant Scroll was apples to oranges.

Map can be compared to the bauble in much the same way that Wayfinder can be compared to the Farhaven. Another comparison would be Rampant Growth to Sylvan Scrying... because well... they two artifacts do the same things as the bauble and map respectively.


But for all the reasons you stated concerning map... is why it should be considered a staple card... with the caveat that a deck not playing those awesome lands should run bauble in the same slot (you know, the 1cmc artifact land seaching slot)

3DH4LIF3


your example of Rampant growth to Merchant Scroll was apples to oranges.


That's exactly the point! Bauble = apples, Map = oranges.


Rampant growth:
-costs 2
-puts an ordinary mana source into play (only selectivity is color), accelerating your mana for future turns

Merchant Scroll:
-costs 2 (same as rampant growth)
-puts a card in your hand (selection is limited to a certain subset of cards, yet a wide variety of effects - some very powerful - are available)


Wayfarer's Bauble:
-costs 1+2
-puts an ordinary mana source into play (only selectivity is color), accelerating your mana for future turns

Expedition Map:
-costs 1+2 (same as bauble)
-puts a card in your hand (selection is limited to a certain subset of cards, yet a wide variety of effects - some very powerful - are available)


See why the analogy fits?


Sylvan scrying is a closer comparison than merchant scroll, but doesn't hammer home the fact that map's role in a deck is to tutor out some sort of utility effect, not just to get a mana source. Majority of the time, map will get you a land you won't use to produce mana anyway. And it doesn't accelerate, which is the WHOLE point of bauble.


My point is, bauble and map aren't in the same class of cards, and don't serve the same role. Thus, they shouldn't be competing for the same slot in your deck. If you decide that, based on your mana curve, you want 36 lands and 9 accelerants, then cutting an accelerant for a tutor (or vice-versa) skews the way your deck performs away from what you wanted.



your example of Rampant growth to Merchant Scroll was apples to oranges.


That's exactly the point! Bauble = apples, Map = oranges.


Rampant growth:
-costs 2
-puts an ordinary mana source into play (only selectivity is color), accelerating your mana for future turns

Merchant Scroll:
-costs 2 (same as rampant growth)
-puts a card in your hand (selection is limited to a certain subset of cards, yet a wide variety of effects - some very powerful - are available)


Wayfarer's Bauble:
-costs 1+2
-puts an ordinary mana source into play (only selectivity is color), accelerating your mana for future turns

Expedition Map:
-costs 1+2 (same as bauble)
-puts a card in your hand (selection is limited to a certain subset of cards, yet a wide variety of effects - some very powerful - are available)


See why the analogy fits?


Sylvan scrying is a closer comparison than merchant scroll, but doesn't hammer home the fact that map's role in a deck is to tutor out some sort of utility effect, not just to get a mana source. Majority of the time, map will get you a land you won't use to produce mana anyway. And it doesn't accelerate, which is the WHOLE point of bauble.


My point is, bauble and map aren't in the same class of cards, and don't serve the same role. Thus, they shouldn't be competing for the same slot in your deck. If you decide that, based on your mana curve, you want 36 lands and 9 accelerants, then cutting an accelerant for a tutor (or vice-versa) skews the way your deck performs away from what you wanted.




I have to disagree that the two are entirely different.


The function the card plays in a deck changes more so based on the deck than the card itself. Bauble is going to ramp a deck, which will matter more for a deck designed to care about the ramp. In another deck, it fixes mana issues one  may have with the side benefit of the ramp (which may not matter except in a case by case scenario based on how the game plays out- it the entire "do I play more ETB tapped fual lands because top decking a Vivid sometimes means I lose" dilemma). In a deck that plays a lot of Cool lands the bauble is not going to cut the mustard when there are superior cards like Simulacrum, but the map may because it also fixes mana, and gets the utility effect.

But the fact remains they both fix mana issues because they are colorless. One ramps, one tutors- both fix mana. You example of Rampant growth versus Merchant Scroll ignores the obvious fact that both  the bauble and the map search for lands. Can you see why your analogy fails? I understand what you're trying to do with it, but you are wrong.

3DH4LIF3



The map is absolutely amazing. I agree it should go into any deck that uses lands... which is most of them. I prefer it to wayfarers bauble for the simple facts you listed above, but will concede that a deck not running utility lands as part of the game plan should play the bauble instead.




Believe it or not, Map would slow down my current EDH deck. I'm even running Scion, and I just don't NEED it. I have enough shock and fetch lands that at any point, using Map would actually slow my game down (and this is a deck that can turn 3 Identity Crisis and turn five Tooth and Nail with entwine).


It just isn't necessary in every deck.





That is exactly what I said. I'll bold it.


Being a staple does not mean a card belongs in everydeck. Obviously Force of Will has no place in a Monoblack deck, but if you run blue there are very few reasons not to run it. A deck that runs lots of basics can use the map, but would be better off running the Bauble. Then again, a deck that runs 1 or 2 colors would be better off running Extraplanar lense than the bauble... but may have a use for the map to get tolarian academy (which ends up being better ramp than the bauble in most cases) or Cabal Coffers... or Urborg set the coffers going nuts...

3DH4LIF3


You example of Rampant growth versus Merchant Scroll ignores the obvious fact that both  the bauble and the map search for lands. Can you see why your analogy fails? I understand what you're trying to do with it, but you are wrong.




I'm well aware that they both fetch lands. The analogy doesn't fail, because the lands they fetch don't do the same thing for you.


Bauble fetches mana sources alone, map will 99.9% of the time get something with a purpose other than making mana (and since you're tutoring for it, presumeably its utility function is something you have an immediate use for). It doesn't matter that the card types match, what matters is what they do to the board. Do you categorize maze of ith as a mana source simply because it's a land? No? Then don't categorize cards that find maze of ith as "mana source fetchers".


Calling map a non-accelerating mana fixer is like calling trinket mage a blue civic wayfinder because it can fetch seat of synod + company. Well sure it can, but that's not how it is or should be used normally.


Similarly, map isn't and shouldn't be used to grab ordinary mana sources. If you use map to fix mana more than once in a blue moon, you're either doing something horribly wrong, or your manabase has lots of room for improvement.


This whole idea of an "artifact land-fetcher slot" is something you just made up. When designing the framework of a deck, you're balancing numbers of things like mana sources to accelerants, card draw to action spells, recursion to things worth recurring, etc. You don't drop an accelerant for something that doesn't accelerate unless you've decided you want less acceleration, in which case the replacement may or may not be a land tutor. The two cards are not interchangeable the way you think they are.



You example of Rampant growth versus Merchant Scroll ignores the obvious fact that both  the bauble and the map search for lands. Can you see why your analogy fails? I understand what you're trying to do with it, but you are wrong.




I'm well aware that they both fetch lands. The analogy doesn't fail, because the lands they fetch don't do the same thing for you.


The fact that they both fetch lands is exactly why the analogy fails. Merchant versus rampant can only go so far in the comparison of the bauble to the map.  Because the two artifact search out lands they can, and do in some instances, compete for a slot. I would consider both in a Uril Deck. I can ramp or fetch the utility land that makes Uril beat face (I would prefer to play both in that deck of course, but maybe that isn't an option given what I'd rather play with).

Bauble fetches mana sources alone, map will 99.9% of the time get something with a purpose other than making mana (and since you're tutoring for it, presumeably its utility function is something you have an immediate use for). It doesn't matter that the card types match, what matters is what they do to the board. Do you categorize maze of ith as a mana source simply because it's a land? No? Then don't categorize cards that find maze of ith as "mana source fetchers".

Calling map a non-accelerating mana fixer is like calling trinket mage a blue civic wayfinder because it can fetch seat of synod + company. Well sure it can, but that's not how it is or should be used normally.


This is wrong on so many levels. Was I wrong when I said the map fetched lands?

 It is entirely possible to compare Civic Wayfinder and Trinket mage, as well as compare Garruk and Tezz. Trinket mage is amazing because it can fix your mana, get your top... or wait... I actually have used it to fetch the Map once I have a top in play!! Isn't that funny. Your just making the case for the map being a staple that much easier to make.


Similarly, map isn't and shouldn't be used to grab ordinary mana sources. If you use map to fix mana more than once in a blue moon, you're either doing something horribly wrong, or your manabase has lots of room for improvement.

No kidding. But the fact that I can means what? That it doesn't fix mana?

This whole idea of an "artifact land-fetcher slot" is something you just made up. When designing the framework of a deck, you're balancing numbers of things like mana sources to accelerants, card draw to action spells, recursion to things worth recurring, etc. You don't drop an accelerant for something that doesn't accelerate unless you've decided you want less acceleration, in which case the replacement may or may not be a land tutor. The two cards are not interchangeable the way you think they are.

Can I copyright the term artifact land-fetcherTM?

I was being facetious in my terminology, so yes I made it up...  But there is an arguement to be made for the slot. You have armillary sphere, wanderers twig, wanderers kite, I guess Mana Cylix, various other artifacts that let you filter mana (usually cantriping)... then you have Solemn Simulacrum and... hmmm.... I can't think of another that fetches a land, but there are numerous colorless accel that don't need to be named.


But please, stop reading into what I've said. I never said they were interchangeable. I recognize the difference between fixing and ramping and tutoring... I said that I would prefer the Map to bauble (making the comparison based on type of card searched, casting cost, activation cost, card type, color or lack there of) because the map allows me to fetch out the AWESOME lands that most decks play, and then specifically said that bauble would be better for decks that do not rely on AWESOME lands for their game plan, in that slot (y'know the one I made up Tongue out).


When I said you were wrong it was in your use of Rampant Growth versus Merchant scroll... presumably picked because you wanted the difference in those two cards to illustrate the differences you see between the common uses of Bauble and Map. This is a bad analogy because it ignores the obvious land connection between the two artifacts and is thus misleading or possible confusing to someone. You should have used Rampant Growth and Sylvan Scrying.

3DH4LIF3

The fact that they both fetch lands is exactly why the analogy fails.


They search out different things. Technically it's all land, but one gets mana sources only (and compensates for this narrow-ness by cheating said mana into play outside the 1-land-per-turn limit), and one gets utility lands with no such compensation. Regardless of the "land" denomination, they are used to accomplish different things.


This is wrong on so many levels. Was I wrong when I said the map fetched lands?


You were wrong when you implied that A) my analogy somehow claimed they didn't and B) that this means that decks face decisions of one or the other for a 'slot'.


A slot means "I want something that does X for me". For example, you might decide you deck needs 4 "creature removal" slots. It doesn't matter if the cards chosen to fill this slot are Duplicant, terminate, prison term, and maze of ith....they all serve the purpose of nullifying a creature for you. The fact that one's a creature, one's an instant, one's an aura, and one's a land is unimportant when deciding what slot they fill. The card type doesn't change the fact that they're all removal.


Similarly, the fact that both bauble and map are effectively lands is unimportant, when fitting them into deck slots. What IS important is what purpose they serve for you. One of them ramps your mana, the other gives you access to various useful utility effects. When slotting them into a deck, they do NOT compete for the same slot. Bauble competes with sakura-tribe elder, coldsteel heart, mana reflection, etc...other effects that accelerate mana. If you decide that 8 acceleration spells is right for your deck, you may or may not choose wayfarer's bauble depending on what other accelerants you have to choose from. You may also decide you want better access to strip mine and academy ruins, and therefore run expedition map, but map does NOT take one of your 8 acceleration slots (obviously, it doesn't accelerate), and therefore should NOT affect your decision to run bauble or not. The two decisions are independant of each other.


Your just making the case for the map being a staple that much easier to make.


Cool, I agree that it's a staple. If you look back to the very first post about spoiled zendikar cards, I was the first person to mention Map's awesome potential.


No kidding. But the fact that I can means what? That it doesn't fix mana?


It CAN fix mana if you need it to, but it's not very good at that job compared to other cards devoted to that task (eg: bauble) and that is not the reason you'd put this card in your deck, or the task you want it performing.


You have armillary sphere, wanderers twig, wanderers kite, I guess Mana Cylix, various other artifacts that let you filter mana (usually cantriping)


Those cards are all bad....don't run any of them. Actually, I assume you mean Journeyer's kite? That one's alright, but its role is as a card advantage engine. None of these accelerate mana. There are plenty of fixers out there that DO accelerate, run those instead.


... then you have Solemn Simulacrum and... hmmm.... I can't think of another that fetches a land, but there are numerous colorless accel that don't need to be named.


Signets, darksteel ingot, gilded lotus, thran dynamo, etc... You're focusing too hard on HOW cards accomplish their job and missing out on what the job is. It's the job that determines how they fit into your deck's slots, the 'how' is secondary. Whether you're accelerated by sneaking an extra land into play this turn, or adding an artifact that makes mana IS a relevant concern, but not when deciding whether they help fill your acceleration quota or not.


You should have used Rampant Growth and Sylvan Scrying.


You might be right. I'm just sayin, I had my reasons for choosing a card that was more clearly a tutor. The costs where the same (despite different colors), and blue instants is about as narrow a subset as "lands", as far as tutor-worthy effects go. The analogy is fair. I've seen too many people list sylvan scrying in the "accel" section of their decklists, which is flat out wrong.

That's enough expedition map discussion. Expedition map is a pretty good card and it's definitely played in EDH decks. Wayfarer's bauble is a completely different card but yet again played in EDH. End of story.

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.


-SNIP- Some stuff out


You should have used Rampant Growth and Sylvan Scrying.


You might be right. I'm just sayin, I had my reasons for choosing a card that was more clearly a tutor. The costs where the same (despite different colors), and blue instants is about as narrow a subset as "lands", as far as tutor-worthy effects go. The analogy is fair. I've seen too many people list sylvan scrying in the "accel" section of their decklists, which is flat out wrong.




I know you had reasons for the choices. The problem is they were illustrative only of the tutor versus land aspect. My reasoning for causing so much ado is the claim you made that they can't be compared, or can't compete for a slot. I have a deck where any artifact outside of signets is in competition for a slot. I'm running exactly 5 colorless artifacts that aren't one of the 10 signets- so Bauble, Map, Thran Turbine, Planar Portal, Journeyer's Kite (I went ot bed last night and realized that I'd written wanderer's...), Platinum Angel (which is also a slot, I'm running, or trying to run 5 angels in the deck) and any other you want to list are all competing.


Sylvan Library as accel... yeah, that makes complete sense... sure... um... really? Did you tell them that is actually card advantage at the price of some life? Yeah its green and cost the same as rampant growth, but...


And those artifacts that I listed that weren't the kite and the Simulacrum... yes they are bad... doesn't mean that they can't be run, or shouldn't be run (it is a casual format. Bad cards can be fun). Well the Armillary sphere is probably the only one that I'd actually run of the ones mentioned that are bad.



That's enough expedition map discussion. Expedition map is a pretty good card and it's definitely played in EDH decks. Wayfarer's bauble is a completely different card but yet again played in EDH. End of story.




You must not have actually read the ado. Wink

3DH4LIF3

I said sylvan scrying, not sylvan library. Neither of them is acceleration.


I said sylvan scrying, not sylvan library. Neither of them is acceleration.





I read about as well as I play magic.

 


 


 


 

3DH4LIF3

Creakwood Liege is still terrible FYI.  Everything still kills it and leaves you with maybe two worm tokens.
I've finished exams and would like to get this topic stickied. I've adjusted the first post a bit, please continue discussing any further problems. There are surely many cards that are missing.
It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.
Hmm well I didn't like the list as it started, but it's getting better and you seem to be staying active here....we DO need to get rid of that sticky.

Here's my take:


Artifact staples:


Solemn Simulacrum
Duplicant
Sol Ring
Mind’s Eye
Sensei’s Divining Top
Oblivion Stone and/or Nevinyrral’s Disk
Add: Gilded Lotus, Crucible of Worlds, Gauntlet of Power (for monocolor decks), Extraplanar Lens (ditto)

White staples:


Reveillark
Karmic Guide - both this and lark are kind of narrow. They're undoubtedly powerful in the right deck, but there are a lot of decks that won't want them. Seems more appropriate for the section below.
Hallow Burial
Path to Exile - weaker than condemn, imo
Swords to Plowshares
Add: Return to Dust, Condemn, Luminarch Ascension, Austere Command


Blue staples:


Venser, Shaper Savant
Capsize - I'd prefer seeing this in the below section - it's slow and not effective against creatures with CITP abilities (which are good/heavily played in this format)
Time Stop - overcosted, meta dependant. Move below
Rhystic Study
Fact or Fiction
Add: Opportunity, Trinket Mage, Deep analysis, Mystical Tutor, Hinder, Mana Drain/Counterspell, Future Sight, Time stretch


Black staples:


Withered Wretch and/or Nezumi Graverobber
Puppeteer Clique - below
Bane of the Living - overcosted damnation
Demonic Tutor
Liliana Vess - should just be vampiric tutor
Add: Necropotence, Promise of Power, Vampiric Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will


Red staples:


Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Boggardan Hellkite
Vicious Shadows - enh....if enough other people want it....you know how I feel about this one.
Insurrection
Word of Seizing - below, imo


Green staples:


Eternal Witness
Genesis
Acidic Slime
Woodfall Primus
Primal Command
Add: Seedborn muse, Survival of the Fittest, Mana Reflection, Regrowth, Restock, Krosan Grip, Sylvan Library

Gold staples:


Angel of Despair
Mystic Snake - only decks that blink/recur creatures would care about this. Move below
Pernicious Deed
Mirari’s Wake
Debtor’s Knell
Bant Charm
Add: Mystical Teachings, Voidslime


No land staples?


The following is just a list of good cards.


Artifact:


Expedition Map
Darksteel Ingot
Tormod’s Crypt and/or Relic of Progenitus - I prefer phyrexian furnace or scrabbling claws, but these are good too
Lightning Greaves
Sword of Light and Shadow
Add: Sword of Fire/Ice, Umezawa's Jitte, Scroll Rack, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Darksteel Colossus


White:


Magus of the Disk - so many sweepers are so much better
Wispmare - wtf?
Land Tax + Enlightened Tutor - deserves its own line, surely?
Wrath of God
Rout
Akroma’s Vengeance
Return to Dust - I have yet to not put this in a white deck...even 5c. It's better than you think it is, and is useful pretty much universally. Move above
Beacon of Immortality - ew, lifegain
Add: Moat, Elspeth, Stonehewer Giant, Idyllic Tutor, Reya Dawnbringer, Yosei, Archon of Justice, Armageddon, Ravages of War, Cataclysm, Eternal Dragon, Akroma, Baneslayer Angel, Humility


Blue:


Magus of the Future
Trinket Mage - finds sensei's divining top and sol ring - belongs above
Mana Drain - belongs above
Hinder
Dissipate - I'd rank counterspell above this
Cryptic Command
Commandeer
Trickbind
Spin into Myth
Bribery
Aquire
Blatant Thievery
Add: Intuition, Tezzeret, Jace, Stroke of Genius, Mind Spring, Braingeyser, Mystic Remora, Keiga, Take Possession, Draining Whelk, Crystal Shard, Arcanis the Omnipotent, Teferi, Rite of Replication, Vesuvan Shapeshifter


Black:


Phyrexian Plagelord
Myojin of Night’s Reach
Damnation
Decree of Pain - above, maybe
Oversold Cemetery
Beacon of Unrest
Add: Phyrexian Arena, Beseech the Queen (in monoblack), Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Profane Command, Shriekmaw, Living Death


Red:


Anger
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Siege-Gang Commander
Reiterate
Starstorm
Wild Ricochet
Add: Rolling Earthquake, Boom/bust, Decree of Annihilation, Wildfire, Ruination


Green:


Sakura-Tribe Elder
Yavimaya Elder
Krosan Tusker - enh
Wickerbough Elder
Indrik Stomphowler
Mold Shambler - too many creeping mold/naturalize creatures here, I think
Silklash Spider
Survival of the Fittest - belongs above, it's in the top 5 most powerful cards in the format, maybe top 3
Life from the Loam
Kodama's Reach
Explosive Vegetation
Tooth and Nail
Add: Chord of Calling, Ant Queen, Garruk, Harmonize, Restock, All Suns' Dawn, Deadwood Treefolk


Gold:


Sygg, River Cutthroat - ?
Creakwood Liege - ?
Lord of Extinction
Firemane Angel - why??
Saffi Eriksdotter
Trygon Predator
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Fracturing Gust
Eladamri’s Call
Add: Spitting Image, Mystic Snake, Cruel Ultimatum, Magister Sphinx, Aura Shards, Momentary Blink, Conflux


Land:


Thawing Glaciers - staple
Maze of Ith
Temple of the False God - staple
Vesuva
High Market
Miren, the Moaning Well
Volrath’s Stronghold - staple
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Cabal Coffers
Academy Ruins
Tolaria West
Yavimaya Hollow
Emeria, the Sky Ruin


Add: Reliquary tower(staple), Fetchlands (staple), Bouncelands(staple), Dual Lands(staple), Kor Haven(staple), Krosan Verge(staple), Strip Mine(staple), Wasteland, Deserted Temple, Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Phyrexian Tower, Kher Keep, Sunhome Fortress of Legion, Vhitu-gazi the city tree, Mistveil Plains




The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of having 2 separate sections. "Staples" - cards that have a very high probability of belonging in any given deck of its color(s) - tend to be less exciting support cards (like top, sol ring, etc), or provide pretty ordinary effects and just happen to be the most efficient at doing so.

Players don't seem to like it that staple lists rarely include big/powerful/high impact cards, but such cards tend to require some deck-building concessions to achieve that effect. For example: living death isn't very good in a deck that can't consistently load it's grave with creatures faster than its opponents, but in the right home it can be one of the format's most powerful spells. And Reveillark is pretty bad in a deck that doesn't run creature tutors (aka white/green/x) and a sufficient package of 2-or-lower power creatures for it to work with.

Having a section that just requires cards to "be strong" rather than "be universal" recognizes cards like these.

Krosan Tusker should be a staple too. And Bane of the Living might be overcosted, but he is recurrable.

I've never wanted to put tusker in any of my decks. It's about equal to divination.
I guess it' personal preference then. My group plays it in every deck with green. And what about Vindicate? I think that is a staple too.
I've never wanted to put tusker in any of my decks. It's about equal to divination.



Except at instant speed... which makes it better.

Its a pretty solid card for heavily green decks that have little access to card draw. Similar to a mulldrifter in versatility.

3DH4LIF3

Except that one of the two cards has to be a basic land, which makes it worse. It about balances out. Mulldrifter is way better: it can be blinked/bounced/cloned for re-use, draws cards again if reanimated, and can be a combat body to chump or carry equipment in addition to the card draw. Again, drawing 2 is usually better than drawing 1 plus a land. And mulldrifter isn't listed as a staple.

Green has plenty of card advantage. Survival of the fittest, sylvan library, harmonize, regal force, soul's majesty, masked admirers, all the artifact draw engines like mind's eye and the numerous jayemdae tome variants, plus divining top and scroll rack plus shuffle effects to help find them. I'd run tusker in monogreen, but not in any 2 or 3 color deck (well...maybe green/red). Definitely not a staple, and not strong enough to be considered a "narrow but powerful" card.
Tusker isn't that great. A lot of decks run him but he's not that great.

I think mold shambler, wickerbought elder, and indrik stomphowler however are all really good, and are all listed for the same reason white has so many wraths and blue has so many counterspells.
It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.
I don't understand the appeal of Mold Shambler; for the same mana you get a bigger body with Stomphowler or the Hat Rack, or additional targets and a decent rattlesnake in Acidic Slime. After those three cards, how much more room does a deck have to devote to the Shambler? 
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