This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget Article, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I liked the deck and I mostly agree with your statement that Luminarch shuts down control decks. However, many of the current control decks I have seen run Esper charm (Cascade control, Planeswalker control), which destroys enchantments. Unlike a turn-two Bitterblossom, Ascension does not actually trigger for at least three turns. The control player has plenty time to destroy your win condition.
thumbs up for testing for more than 3 games
in hindsight, blue seems like a viable alternative with cards like sleep and lethargy trap
Glad you "figured out" the no-brainer that is Brave the Elements.I guess I'll take your silence on the Dream Salvage deck a few weeks back as an admission of fault.Starting to see why many aren't fans Mr. L.
I enjoyed the article, I think I'll make a deck with Dueling Grounds and some cards that tap creatures (IE - Icy Manipulator), and some other cards mentioned in the list. Should be fun, well, for me at least.
Of course, as this deck creates tokens and counters everywhere, you could add Conquerors Plegde and some Doubling Seasons. Token madness.
Doubling season would push the deck into extended. No problem with that in theory but it isn't what the article was focussing on.
I really like the current format of the articles. Idea, Budget Deck, Testing what changes would you make if budget wasn't a constraint. I think it is pretty unfair to slate JVL for not preparing a 'perfect' deck otherwise there wouldn't be that much to talk about. He even starts his article by saying the card was 'missing' from his deck.
The one really bad match up for Turbo Fog is, of course, Esper Mill (or some variant). I think Mill decks are going to see a lot of competitive type 2 play at the moment.
There is no link on any letters written to JVL from article readers(
It's a Pity i've mention Turbo Fog several times on forum and in the letters...
Know what should be added in this deck versus 2 copies of non-cheap Martial Coup - Hedron Crabs!!!
There is no link on any letters written to JVL from article readers(It's a Pity i've mention Turbo Fog several times on forum and in the letters...
That said, JVL has improved a lot in the year he's been writing this column. I think he transcribed a good number of games and gave a decent sense how they went, and the deck is, if not polished, at least a somewhat-developed idea suitable for a budget builder to keep working on.
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Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.
You should know that it isn't me who invented this deck =)
I've just Mentioned of what budget deck Jacob could write the next week.
But it is me who first starts building/playing Megrim discard pain in My City and one of the first people over the "MTG net" who publicate deckbuild of it. Now this deck is somehow combining into two different ways: 1 to Grixis Unearth and mass discard and the second is Turbo Dreams on Underworld drems. The main problem for discard deck is the empty opponents hand - so we usually see Blightnings and Duresses in the Jund Aggro sideboards or somewhere else.
But continious card drawing solves this problem + Kederekts and Underworld Dreams done their job for hitting opponent for each card he/she draw. It's an amuzing combo with Megrim and Burning Inquiry - it is budget, it is great combo, it's an opponents megrim and it's a big fun to play.
Turbo fog have only 20% chances Max to win vs "Turbo Megrim Dreams".
What colours are you running in the Megrim Dreams build? If its mono black then the theory is fine but if you are playing a second colour the triple black casting cost of Underworld Dreams looks a bit unreliable. Also, what do you do if an opponent gets a creature to stick, which they are likely to do before you make them discard the cards. How would this beat vampires for example who look to empty their hands in the first few turns, or Jund aggro. What about against Esper mill?
Colors - I'm playing URB =) And somehow play my 2 copies of Dreams But i'd like to change it to RB for better stabiliztion. The only point for me to play Blue is Sedraxises which are real great in this deck.
2 Color deck will have no problems of playing Dreams and Sign in Blood if it have good stabilization:
I'd recomend the following one:
4 Dragonskull Summit
2-3 Akoum Refuge
4 Veinfire Borderpost
2 Reliquary Tower - if you a playing with Mines and Fonts
You hit the point - Aggro is a main problem for this deck( So i'm playing a lot of removal like Banquets Terminates Lightning Bolts Burst Lightning and 2 Pyroclasms in the main + 2 Pyros in the side and 2 Infests) Aggro matchups are real difficult for this deck but your hand hate should be on a first place!
I never saw an Esper mill in play( If it is uses Mines and Fonts so it is an easy win but if there are only mill elements like Crabs, Traps, Jaces and 3/7 Beast it'll be a lot difficult but don't forget of your control elements like Blightning Duress and Inquiry. It will be difficult for opponent to fight against deck hate when he have to combo with his cards or smth.
I'd like to play with one to have a real example of how does it going.
And don't forget - my deck is real budget and Jund aggro or good Fog or Mill is not.
Bogimp, would you be so kind as to post your deck. It sounds v interesting. Thanks in advance.
here's my version..it's not budget (a fair amount of rares) and it's extended (though im sure some of the older cards can be swapped out for modern equivalents).
Creatures3 Goldenglow Moth 4 Knight of Meadowgrain 2 Augury Adept Enchantments2 Greater Auramancy 2 Honor of the Pure 2 Luminarch Ascension 2 Mark of Asylum 2 Sigil of the Empty Throne 3 Sunspring Expedition Instants3 Angelsong 2 Brave the Elements 4 Hallow 4 Mending Hands4 Ethereal HazeLand21 Plains
all the instants serve to prevent damage and delay while the enchantments get put into play...then its just a matter of time before Sigil of the Empty Throne and Luminarch Ascension start filling the skies with 4/4 angel tokens.
Oh thats nearly the first time some people with similar avatar pictures mentioned my posts. It's nice i'm not lost in the nothingness inside of me =)
I've posted the list nearly 4-5 times in the different places : 2-3 times in the community.
community.wizards.com/cards/go/thread/vi... - it's a first build I've posted in my Group in this community - I'll be glad if you'll join to it to discuss with me some budget deck builds!
And that list is a deck which i'm currently testing:
"Where's ur head at?Turbo Burning Dreams" 3 Sedraxis Specter bur3 Kederekt Parasite b Creatures 3 Underworld Dreams bbb4 Blightning 1br4 Burning Inquiry r2 Howling Mine 22 Font of Mythos 43 Wretched Banquet b2 Terminate br3 Lightning Bolt r3 Megrim 2b3 Sign in Blood bb2 Pyroclasm 1r3 Duress bSpells  4 Veinfire borderpost 1br2 Crumbling Necropolis 5 Mountain7 Swamp1 Jwar Isle Refuge1 Akoum RefugeLands 
It's really sucks so i wan't to imagine somthing to make it stronger and stabilize a manabase. I've already wrote what should be done.
I agree entirely that Jund aggro is not budget. Good fog can be fairly budget but I think Mill is one of the best budget decks around. I would guess (and I haven't done the math) that you could build a UB mill deck for -.
Can't agree with u completely. Mill decks are nice = surely. But to build a good mill deck u should have at least (~):
2-3 Jaces, 3 Howling Mines, 2 Font of Mythos, 4 Crabs, 3-4 Duals like Glacial Fortress, Walls of Denials for e.g. and surely new traps which mills 13 cards - that mill is nice but it will cost much more than 20-40 bucks. Decks which cost more than or equal to 50 are not budget for me sorry
I disagree. You can build a good mill deck mainly with commons and uncommons (Duress, Tomb Scour, Mind Funeral, Esper Charm, Negate/Countersquall, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, Angelsong, Ior Ruin Expedition, Kraken Hatchling, Arcane Sanctum etc).
Yes, you can spend more money on a mill deck and it will be slightly better but you can make a good budget mill deck for less than $20.
Ok it seems that it have a point. But it'll be a topdeck deck if you're not using Mines and card advantage. 2 copies of Haunting F****ng Echoes could be great in such a deck if it uses black too much.It's a great control and what nice Echoes is much cheaper these days than it was in the Odyssey.
PS: Path is not a budget card like the fallout(
If mill is real cheap - why not to add more fog to it and you'll have a good non-turbo "millfog" deck which will have an answer for aggro sligh decks - but red monoburn is ARGHHH... seems to hot for Mill
But i keep on like the deck i am building the flavour and fantazy of controling ur opponents mind and making him suffer is real neat =)
Sorry for my english afterwords, i'm just keep on studying it.
You should know that it isn't me who invented this deck =)I've just Mentioned of what budget deck Jacob could write the next week.But it is me who first starts building/playing Megrim discard pain in My City and one of the first people over the "MTG net" who publicate deckbuild of it. Now this deck is somehow combining into two different ways: 1 to Grixis Unearth and mass discard and the second is Turbo Dreams on Underworld drems. The main problem for discard deck is the empty opponents hand - so we usually see Blightnings and Duresses in the Jund Aggro sideboards or somewhere else.But continious card drawing solves this problem + Kederekts and Underworld Dreams done their job for hitting opponent for each card he/she draw. It's an amuzing combo with Megrim and Burning Inquiry - it is budget, it is great combo, it's an opponents megrim and it's a big fun to play.Turbo fog have only 20% chances Max to win vs "Turbo Megrim Dreams".
Hmm I have my own Megrim-Unearth list, but could you be so kind as to post your list mines below. I wish I had room for Lillian Vess, black/red Blades, and Font of Mythos.
First of all, I'm really glad to see people who appreciate the power of Luminarch Ascension. Do I think it's the best card ever? No, but I definetly feel it's one of my favorites and I'm just waiting for others to realize that too.
I made my own deck that instead of focusing on turbo-fog; really relies on Luminarch Ascension as a primary win condition.
I initially made it to be casual, but it's been doing good in match-ups so far that I'm thinking about it being competitive. The deck is white-blue, and unfortunately doesn't run on a budget, but tell me what you guys think.
Also I don't have the deck on me right now, so this is a rough idea of what I remember.
Luminarch Ascension x 4
Baneslayer Angel x 4
Day of Judgement x 4
Spell Pierce x 4
Negate x 2
Safe Passage x 3
Wall of Denial x 3
Jace Belern x 3
Sphinx of Jwar Isle x 2-3 (don't remember)
Harm's Way x 4
Ponder x 3-4
Glacial Fortress x 4
and the rest is filled with Plains and Islands with slightly more Plains.
Essentially the idea is Turn one is a land drop, maybe a Ponder. Turn 2 is Luminarch Ascension. Turn 3 is either the Wall of Denial or Safe Passage. After that I should have either one or two quest counters on Luminarch Ascension. Turn 4 would most likely be a Day of Judgement to clear the field and buy me another one or two counters. By Turn 5 or 6, I should have enough to start pumping angels. If I can't get Luminarch Ascension off, then my secondary win condition is a Turn 5 Baneslayer after Day of Judgement has cleared the field for her. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is a little out of place, but it finishes jobs that Baneslayer can't without shroud. With those threats on the field, even if I can't swing with them to win, they are usually enough to keep my opponent from attacking too, which lets Luminarch build back up late game. And then I should also have another Day of Judgement in my hand in case things go bad again, which doesn't reset Luminarch so I should still be in good board position.
Negate I think is good to have to stop late game removal of Luminarch Ascension, but Spell Pierce works well in the early game, which is really the most crucial for this deck. Also I chose Harm's Way over Path to Exile because; again, this deck is crucial to dominate control in the early game, so giving them extra land is not favorable, and in early game, there isn't alot of sources that will pump out over 2 dmg a piece (short of Lightning Bolt, which is what Spell Pierce is for). Plus if they are spending creature burn on me instead, I figure I'm doing well.
So let me know what you guys think :D.
And btw, this is my first post on the forums, so nice to meet you all.
Hey this is a decklist I put together and I have found it works fairly well against most creature decks plese reply how you like it
Sigil of the Empty Throne 4 Conflux
Honor of the Pure 3 Magic 2010
Mark of Asylum 3 Conflux
Oblivion Ring 4 Shards of Alara
Pacifism 4 Magic 2010
Crystallization 4 Alara Reborn
Ice Cage 4 Magic 2010
Ior Ruin Expedition 3 Zendikar
Luminarch Ascension 4 Zendikar
Journey to Nowhere 4 Zendikar
Glacial Fortress 4 Magic 2010
Sejiri Refuge 4 Zendikar
I have always been a big fan of Turbo-Fog. This type of deck punishes opponents who want to win a traditional game of attacking and blocking.
So you're a big fan of one of the most boring and frustrating strategies to play against, second only to dedicated land destruction... Then again, after your Restore Balance deck, I shouldn't be too surprised. Don't get me wrong, these are totally legitimate strategies, and the fact that they do win games is more than enough of a motivation to play them in a competitive environment. But personaly, I simply never can resort to play them, because I always feel like I deserve a punch in the face when I win that way. There is a big margin between a normal control deck with counterspells and good removal and a true game-ruining deck like this one, which has weaknesses but can much more bluntly deprive someone who tries to play "real Magic" of all his fun. The thing that adds insult to injury is that most versions of fog decks take an eternity to win. Your white-green build is actually quite alright for that matter as its win condition, Luminarch Ascension, wins in really short order when it starts working, but blue milling versions are such a pain... please don't switch to that .
My point is WotC should really try to keep the viability of such strategies to a minimum, just like they weakened LD. I understand they could have been suprised the first time the Turbo Fog strategy became competitive a few years back in Time Spiral standard, but now, they should know the recipe, and they could try to somewhat avoid too much redundancy of the two key elements of the archetype : fog effects and repeatable "both players draw" effects. Turbo Fog is, in my opinion, unacceptably good in this fall's Standard.
Until that changes, what I can do is being constructive with the problem, and keep in mind...
1- Play a strategy that doesn't win through combat. Milling, Burn, and combo decks which way to win doesn't imply combat come to mind. The Time Sieve deck does use combat, however, but it can win trough...
2- Counterspells. If you can manage to build a massive enough attack force to win in one or two turns (depending on just how much countermagic you're packing, how early in the game it is, etc.), counterspelling all of your opponent's fog effects for the turn does it. For decks like Time Sieve, it can mean late game counter/fog wars as we've seen in the article, but in a theorical aggro deck with Blue (White Weenie decks with a blue splash for Sleep and Negate/Spell Pierce are very possible at the moment), this trick can be tried early.
3- Discard. Pinpoint discard such as Duress often won't work well enough on Fog spells, because unlike with counterspells, if they have several, you're not making them spend mana while getting rid of one of them, so they have all their ressources to play another. What does work, on the other hand, is massive discard such as Mind Shatter and Mind Sludge. The latter is, in my opinion, the one best way for Vampires to win the Fog matchup (play Mind Sludge main deck fanged folks, unless your metagame is all aggro, you need it BAD). Note that Duress can still help a lot in getting rid of something else that's key to them : sometimes a win condition they're holding, sometimes a Negate that could counter your massive discard plan. Also, Duress can help to...
4- Get rid of their draw engines. That is the more subtle way. The thing is that without Howling Mine, Font of Mythos and Jace Beleren, the deck inevitably runs out of Fog spells. That's the strategy that White and/or Green aggro decks without other methods can use. Oblivion Ring, Naturalize, pack a lot of them if Turbo Fog gives you problems in your metagame !
i, too, love turbofog. this version seems a little weak and boring to me, though. cheap counters like negate make the burn matchups less depressing and i'm not sure running green over blue for the eponymous card (and tanglesap) is worth it. sleep and various counterspells seem stronger to me. i will probably put this list and a blue/white list together and fool around with them.
i don't care that jvl doesn't give shout outs to everyone who emails or posts about relevant information in his column. so you didn't get mentioned, oh well. personally i couldn't care less about whether i get to read your name in his column, as i'm reading it for the decks and the play. if he takes credit for a list he obviously pulled intact from someone else's email, then i can understand people getting upset. but being upset because he didn't say "i sure like turbofog, and so do the following 13 people who posted or emailed me about it: list" seems kind of silly to me.
cue the anger!
I run a combination white weenie/luminarch ascention deck that I really like. I think it really blends the two types together well, and it does pretty well in my local games.
4x Elite Vanguard
3x Akrasan Squire
4x Kazandu Blademaster
4x Veteran Swordsmith
2x Captain of the Watch
4x Honor of the Pure
3x Luminarch Ascension
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
4x Harm's Way
4x Path to Exile
3x Day of Judgment
4x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
This works for me. If you get an Ascension out early on, Harm's Way, Path to Exile, and Day of Judgment (plus whatever quick blockers you have) can hold back the damage for enough turns. If you don't see that early Ascension, the Honor of the Pure backed soldiers can win themselves, provided you play your supporting instants properly (save that Path for a Baneslayer or Ob Nixilis, let your soldiers win the smaller combat battles). I really like the variety, not just number, of threats this offers for your opponents: small fast creatures, Luminarch Ascension, and Elspeth all MUST be dealt with. Btw, this deck was not nearly as good before Ascension. Plus, I would like more Elspeths, but after all, I'm building on a budget, aren't I?
Hmm I have my own Megrim-Unearth list, but could you be so kind as to post your list mines below. I wish I had room for Lillian Vess, black/red Blades, and Font of Mythos.RB Megrim-Unearth
3 Hellspark Elemental3 Rotting Rats3 Shambling Remain2 Kathari Bomber (under performer)2 Hell's Thunder 2 Magma Phoenix153 Lightning Bolt1 Terminate2 Volcanic Fallout 64 Blightning 4 Megrim1 Earthquake4 Howling Mine3 Burning Inquiry1 Quietus Spike179 Mountain7 Swamp4 Akoum Refuge3 Temporal Expanse2361 totalsideboard
4 Demolish1 Rotting Rats3 Duress3 Terminate1 Lightning Bolt3 Fleshbag Marauder
Thank you for a reply but you'r list seems to me a bit too strange. I haven't got any real list of what should be inside the MegrimUnearth deck - i just saw some lists on ~tcg as i can remember.
I can suggest you to make the following:
RB Megrim-Unearth by BogImp
You may choose to keep playing with Mines but it's a neat choice for Dreams deck only. Good aggro or Combo deck will gain too big bonus from it, imho. And again - the opponent without cards in hand usually plays aggro and you will make him play more creatures and burn each turn.
Hey this is a decklist I put together and I have found it works fairly well against most creature decks plese reply how you like itSigil of the Empty Throne 4 ConfluxHonor of the Pure 3 Magic 2010Mark of Asylum 3 ConfluxOblivion Ring 4 Shards of AlaraPacifism 4 Magic 2010Crystallization 4 Alara RebornIce Cage 4 Magic 2010Ior Ruin Expedition 3 ZendikarLuminarch Ascension 4 ZendikarJourney to Nowhere 4 ZendikarGlacial Fortress 4 Magic 2010Sejiri Refuge 4 ZendikarPlains 9Island 6
You just recreate Sigil of the Empty throne deck to post -Zen. There is no need to play ASylum and Honor in a budget deck which don't need these cards. I don't understand what for are u playing 4 copies of Ascension and thrones- there just no need in so much of them if you even have a little topdeck mastery =) Put Mesa Enchantresses with Holy Strenth!
This is my deck using Luminarch Ascension. The idea is to hold off attackers until your Luminarch Ascension has 4 counters. Although thats what the deck does, it is not the only way this deck wins.
I have built 3 differant win conditions into the deck so if one fails another will make an attempt. Luminarch Ascension being the primary win condition, being able to create mass 4/4 flyers is always a sure way to win. Archive Trap is another of its win conditions. Someone told me it seems out of place but I beg to differ. On turn 1-2 with the right hand you can instantly win the game with them. If you get a hand with at least 1 Plains, 1 Path to Exile, and all 4 Archive Traps you can mill the other guy for 52 cards in a single turn. The last win condition is just with damage.
Meddling Mage holds certain spells at bay that could potentially ruin your game. Most vampire decks use Doom Blade, how about naming it and not have to worry about it again. Maelstrom Pulse is a nasty card, how about making sure it will never see play. Disabling 4 cards in someones deck will cripple them. Funny to disable Bloodbraid Elf in someones cascade deck, potentially shutting it down.
24 Creaturesx4 Deft Duelistx4 Meddling Magex4 Palace Guardx4 Wall of Denialx4 White Knight
16 Spellsx4 Archive Trapx4 Honor of the Purex4 Luminarch Ascensionx4 Path to Exilex4 Unsummon
20 Landsx6 Islandx6 Plainsx4 Kabira Crossroadsx4 Sejiri Refuge
Sideboardx4 Celestial Purgex1 Iona, Shield of Emeriax2 Solemn Offeringx2 Sunspring Expeditionx2 Gwafa Hazid, Profiteerx4 Pacifism
If you dont like the Path to Exile due to giving your opponent a land, you can take out the Path to Exile and possibly the Archive Trap. The Archive Trap is still useful though if they are using Fetch Lands. Someone told me that Journey to Nowhere is better then Path to Exile, but it is a matter of opinion. Tell me what you think and maybe ways to improve it.
I know it makes it less budget but Glacial Fortress would really help the mana fixing. What about a sideboard? Celestial Purge is a great card against most decks while Sunspring Expedition is good against RDW (8 life for one card is the equivalent of 2 lightning bolts and a burst lightning to the face). Negate for Blightning might also be useful.