Predictive Defense and Armour...

Whilst programming in the new stuff from GaW for SagaSheet, I hit upon a bit of a stumper. Sorry if it's been answered before:


If I have Predictive Defense, then I use my Intelligence modifier instead of my Dexterity modifier (assuming that it is higher - ie I'm not wasting a feat). But armour comes built in with a Max Dex limit. Does this become a Max Int limit?


I suppose the rationalisation would be that you could think fast enough to be able to evade the incoming attack, but your armour is stopping you from physically moving fast enough. Does the feat mean that whenever I read 'Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense' then I have to substitute in 'Intelligence bonus' instead?


I just thought I'd check with the minds of the boards before continuing with my work in this area.

SagaSheet


Whilst programming in the new stuff from GaW for SagaSheet, I hit upon a bit of a stumper. Sorry if it's been answered before:


If I have Predictive Defense, then I use my Intelligence modifier instead of my Dexterity modifier (assuming that it is higher - ie I'm not wasting a feat). But armour comes built in with a Max Dex limit. Does this become a Max Int limit?


I suppose the rationalisation would be that you could think fast enough to be able to evade the incoming attack, but your armour is stopping you from physically moving fast enough. Does the feat mean that whenever I read 'Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense' then I have to substitute in 'Intelligence bonus' instead?


I just thought I'd check with the minds of the boards before continuing with my work in this area.




I think technically you use your full int no matter what.


As a practical matter that's insane though, and certainly wasn't the intent.

If I have Predictive Defense, then I use my Intelligence modifier instead of my Dexterity modifier (assuming that it is higher - ie I'm not wasting a feat). But armour comes built in with a Max Dex limit. Does this become a Max Int limit?

I suppose the rationalisation would be that you could think fast enough to be able to evade the incoming attack, but your armour is stopping you from physically moving fast enough. Does the feat mean that whenever I read 'Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense' then I have to substitute in 'Intelligence bonus' instead?



From a pure logical perspective I would say that using your Int modifier would be that you use your mind to evaluate the situation and take preemptive measures, rather than relying on your reflexes. Armor shouldn't really affect that ability and that an armor prevents you from moving quickly shouldn't matter since you might not be able to move quickly anyway (for all we know you might even have a negative Dex mod).

From a balance point of view it's probably a bit too strong though.

I'm going to say you are still affected by MAX DEX restrictions even if you are using an alternative ability score.

I would say you are still effected by max dex of armor. but since you are now using int for your reflex defense dex is irrelevant for your reflex defense. but the max dex would still effect all your skill rolls.


I'm going to say you are still affected by MAX DEX restrictions even if you are using an alternative ability score.




That's what I will be doing (for the sake of simplicity) until we can get a clarification from the game designers.
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By RAW, I think that the Max Dex modifier wouldn't become a Max Int modifier.  I'm think about running it that way as well.  To explain, let's say we have a Soldier who's going to spend 16 points between Dexterity and Intelligence.  He's going to wear armor, but he only wants to use Armor Defense, Improved Armor Defense, and Juggernaught.  Let's look at a few distributions:


15 Dexterity, 15 Intelligence:


This is the medium, balanced build.  For this one build, we can just increase both of those to 16 because this character will obviously advance both of them.  If this character chooses to use Stormtrooper Armor (or equivalent), he will gain absolutely nothing from Predictive Defense because his Max Dexterity modifier is high enough that switching does him nothing.  If he uses Medium Battle Armor, the Feat will gain him a +1 Reflex Defense because his max Dexterity modifier will only be +2.  However, Medium Battle Armor also offers only minimal improvement over stormtrooper armor because of the increase in Armor Bonus perfectly matches the descrease in max Dexterity bonus.  The only real gain is that the character keeps the extra point of Reflex Defense when Denied Dex or Flat-Footed.  Predictive Defense, then, is almost useless with this armor as well.  Now let's say this character wants to use Heavy Battle Armor.  This will cost him one Feat to get Armor Proficiency (Heavy), but that's offest by +2 Fortitude Defense.  Predictive Defense, in this case, would give +2 effective Reflex Defense.  So, the Feat is somewhat helpful here, equalling +2 Reflex Defense.  That's not bad, but also not the most amazing improvement.  Basically, it's +2 Reflex Defense.


8 Dexterity, 18 Intelligence


This is the extreme towards INT.  Obviously the reverse-18 Dexterit, 10 Intellect-isn't going to gain much frmo the Feat, but I'll be using that build for comparitive purposes.  On this one, though, we can gain some real benefits.  With Heavy Armor, this character could have a total set up of +9 Reflex Defense and +4 Fortitude Defense.  In fact, we cuold take that a step farther and call it +10 Reflex Defense and +4 Fortitude Defense from Superior Tech (+9 R-Def and +6 F-Def might be a bit more powerful, but using Protective Armor makes the compareson more straightforward).  However, compared to the reverse character, this character has lost attack and has spent an additional Feat.  So let's look at a straight head-to-head:


8 Dex/18 Int
 +10 R-Def
 -1 Attack
 +4 Skills
 -1 Feat


18 Dex/8 Int
 +9 R-Def
 +4 Attack
 -1 Skills


15 Dex/15 Int
 +7 R-Def
 +2 Attack
 +2 Skills


Now, which character is the best?  Well, that's really hard to say.  Only the top build uses Predictive Defense, the other two do not.  Is it the most powerful one?  Well, if you're looking to make a armor-heavy genius, it's pretty cool, but since you're almost certainly going to be using the Soldier as a starting class, I just don't see have seven skills as too big of a deal.  Meanwhile, the opposite build (18/8) has a lot better attack.  Any way you look at it though, any of those builds have their good sides and bad side.  I can see someone choosing to use any of those.


Predictive Defense, as well as Force of Personality (or whatever that W-Def to CHA one is), can be an extremely powerful Feat.  I have a character who I'm looking at changing to have this Feat (he's inactive/NPC), and he's going to go from using his 6 Dexterity to using his 20 Intelligence for Reflex Defense.  That's a pretty huge boost.  I think that we'll seeing +3-5 bonuses fairly frequently.  It's a very good Feat.


However, I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that armor is one area where there's going to be such a huge difference that I need to house-rule in a fix.  Maybe is can be abused some, but the difference between how this Feat affects normal characters and armor users doesn't seem significant enough for me to worry about.

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

15 Dex/15 Int, level 10 (that's a good point to compare because it's where improved armored defense kicks in for heavy armor, +1Dex/+1Int from ability score increases (could be +2/+2 but that wouldn't give anymore bonus), pure soldier)
Skills To Train In 7, Feats Left 10, Talents Left 3, Ranged Atk +13 (10(base atk)+3(dex)), Abilities left 2
Stormtrooper Armor: Ref 27, Fort 24, Will 20
Battle Armor, heavy: Ref 27 (28 with predictive), Fort 26, Will 20


18 Dex/8 Int, level 10 (same as above except both level 4 and 8 increased dex by 1, so 20 dex as of level 10)
Skills To Train In 3, Feats Left 10, Talents Left 3, Ranged Atk +15 (10(base atk)+5(dex)), Abilities left 2
Stormtrooper Armor: Ref 27, Fort 24, Will 20
Battle Armor, heavy: Ref 27, Fort 26, Will 20


8 Dex/18 Int, level 10 (same as above except both level 4/8 increased int by 1, so 20 int as of level 10, took predictive defense)
Skills To Train In 9, Feats Left 9, Talents Left 3, Ranged Atk +9 (10(base atk)-1(dex)), Abilities left 2
Stormtrooper Armor: Ref 29, Fort 24, Will 20
Battle Armor, heavy: Ref 30, Fort 26, Will 20


So it seems to be a fairly reasonable boost, somewhere in the realm of +1 (16 int/16 dex) to +3 (18/8). But that's assuming normal stats, throw in a Duros (+2 int, +2 dex) or, heaven forbid, a droid character with this feat* and you'll end up with a character who has more skills than anyone else alive and a higher reflex defense than any other character can get, which doesn't seem to be the intent to me. I think that assuming heavier armors prevent you from moving to dodge the incoming attacks, even if you can predict them (max int bonus) is the better way to handle it.


In effect it's not broken for 99% of characters. But the 1% of horribly broken super-skilled ultra-combatents, and the lack of any disadvantage to the 99% if you house-rule out the problem, means I don't see any reason to leave it in. It doesn't help the average player, and it makes powergaming 10x easier as you can have your cake and eat it too with a high skill character with higher ref defense than anyone else (I have no problem with high skill high ref. I have a problem with more skills than anyone else, more ref than anyone else).


* Droid, either 1st or 2nd Degree, at least one level of Independant Droid (behavioral inhibitations removed, can fight), heavy armor (either battle armor, heavy + protective upgrade or neutronium plating), armored defense, improved armored defense, second skin, Superior Tech superior ability +4 int, start with 18 int, grab +1 at level 4 and 8. Total Int = 24, +7 bonus (so for a soldier 10 trained skills. If you started as noble you'd have 13 trained skills, over half the total skills in the game trained). Total Reflex Defense = 34 (10(base)+10(level)+6(1/2 armor)+7) at level 10, 45 by level 20 (10+20+6+8, +1 int at 12 and 16). And your attack bonus hasn't suffered too much, +12 at level 10 (as compared to a dex 16 soldier who would have +13, or a dex 20 pure soldier who would have +15). That, too me, is unbalanced.

So it seems to be a fairly reasonable boost, somewhere in the realm of +1 (16 int/16 dex) to +3 (18/8). But that's assuming normal stats, throw in a Duros (+2 int, +2 dex) or, heaven forbid, a droid character with this feat* and you'll end up with a character who has more skills than anyone else alive and a higher reflex defense than any other character can get, which doesn't seem to be the intent to me.


But who's attack is unimpressive.  Typically, a character who's going to use armor is going to be a very combat-focused one.  The extra skills are nice, but what exactly is a character going to spend nine skills on in the Soldier list?  Sure, you can spend nine, but most of the time you aren't going to get to use them.  +1 to all ranged attacks is probably worth a good bit more, for a soldier, than Use Computer or Swim.  The Soldier list is only eleven skills long, which means with nine skills you're going to have to pick at least on of the practically worthless trio of Strength skills (Climb, Jump, and Swim).  I mean, comparing the first and last examples you give, I see that I could gain two skills and three Reflex Defense, which is great, but it's going to cost me four points to my ranged attack and another Feat.  What are those two skills really going to get me as a Soldier?  A Strength-based skill, which is practically worthless, and something that might have limitted use like Use Computer (with which the party will undoubtedly have someone better than me).  Sure, the Reflex Defense is nice, but I'm not sure it's worth the loss of attack and that Feat, which can easily convert into a higher Reflex Defense (although not +3).


It seems to me like the problem here is focused on PCs who're fine with being fairly bad at combat, but want to be good with armor.  I can see someone doing that, but it's not going to be many individuals.  Generally speaking, the sacrifice in Dexterity just doesn't seem worth it to me. 


In effect it's not broken for 99% of characters. But the 1% of horribly broken super-skilled ultra-combatents, and the lack of any disadvantage to the 99% if you house-rule out the problem, means I don't see any reason to leave it in. It doesn't help the average player, and it makes powergaming 10x easier as you can have your cake and eat it too with a high skill character with higher ref defense than anyone else (I have no problem with high skill high ref. I have a problem with more skills than anyone else, more ref than anyone else).


Why?  The problem I would have is high Reflex Defense and high skills without a worthwhile cost.  If the cost justifies it, I'm absolutely fine with a character have both the most skills and the highest Reflex Defense.  The problem would be if it's too cheap, and to say that these broken builds are "cheap" because they cost so little is just inaccurate.  They're costing a lot, especially for the type of character who would use them.


For example, my first problem with this Feat wasn't combat-characters who will like have high Dexterity, but combat-light characters.  The techie droid who has 24 Intelligence but only 10  Dexterity grabbing one simple Feat and suddenly being a real pain to hit.  Such a character could, with no real investment save Predictive Defense, easily hit 29 Reflex Defense at level 10, and that's just a class and ability modifier.  That's opposed to the mere 22 it should have had. 


* Droid, either 1st or 2nd Degree, at least one level of Independant Droid (behavioral inhibitations removed, can fight), heavy armor (either battle armor, heavy + protective upgrade or neutronium plating), armored defense, improved armored defense, second skin, Superior Tech superior ability +4 int, start with 18 int, grab +1 at level 4 and 8. Total Int = 24, +7 bonus (so for a soldier 10 trained skills. If you started as noble you'd have 13 trained skills, over half the total skills in the game trained). Total Reflex Defense = 34 (10(base)+10(level)+6(1/2 armor)+7) at level 10, 45 by level 20 (10+20+6+8, +1 int at 12 and 16). And your attack bonus hasn't suffered too much, +12 at level 10 (as compared to a dex 16 soldier who would have +13, or a dex 20 pure soldier who would have +15). That, too me, is unbalanced.


Clever, you did miss a good number of modifiers though.  You can increase those number to 38 and 49 by taking a class with +4 Reflex Defense added on.  I do have a few comments though:


Your attack did suffer.  You have it at +12 at level 10, which would mean that you have a 16 Dexterity.  This would mean that you spent 22 points of a point buy on just those two attributes, leaving you with extremely poor alternate attributes.  Also, you choose to not count a good attack for the soldier, which is hardly fair.  A comparable Dex-based character could have a Dexterity score matching your Intelligence score of 24, meaning an attack of +16 at level 10.  Its Reflex Defense wouldn't be as high though, but since he wouldn't be wearing Armor that's net +4 Feats and +3 Talents.


Basically, let's reverse your numbers.  Instead of a starting 14 Dex and 18 Int, let's go with 18 Dex and 14 Int.  The Dexterity increases by +6 points (+2 from leveling, +4 from Superior Tech) and the Intelligence raises to 16.  I'm going to just go Soldier than Gunslinger, and I'm also ging to just assume your character uses Gunslinger for a Prestige class for that +4 Reflex Defense.


On skills, your character does a good bit better.  Mine only has 6 skills while yours has 10.  Since we're talking about droids here, the class skill list is unimportant.  So your build definitely wins there.  On Feats, however, your build requires all three armor Feats and Predictive Defense, for a total cost of four Feats.  My build needs none.  We have a similar situation with Talents, where my build doesn't need any, but yours needs three.  We also have a situation with Attack, where your build has +12 attack (+9 BAB and +3 Dexterity) while my build has +17 attack (+10 BAB and +7 Dexterity).


But we know the heart of this is the character Reflex Defense, so let's take a peak at that.  Your build, at this level, has a 37 Reflex Defense (10 base + 10 level + 4 class + 7 Int + 6 armor), which is pretty great at this level.  My build only has a Reflex Defense of 31 (10 base + 10 level + 4 class + 7 Dexterity).  So, right here let's can pause and say that your build has +6 Reflex Defense and +4 skills, but it costs four Feats, three Talents, and five attack.*  If we cancel out the skills and Feats (say they're even), you've effectively spent three Talents and +5 attack to gain +6 Reflex Defense.  That's not bad, but also not exactly the best exchange.


See, even with your unbalanced droid would probably be a lot better off just using a Dex-based build.  Those four Feats can easily become +4 Reflex, +1 Fortitude, and +1 Will Defense, which is a bit weaker than +6 Reflex Defense, but not too much.  Talents are typically bad at improving Reflex Defense, but they're easily equal to four skills, which puts our total difference at about +1 Reflex Defense (assuming +1 Fort and +1 Will equal +1 R-Def) versus +5 attack.  I just don't see the unbalanced part.  Or, rather, I don't see the worsened balance.  Either build is pretty munchkinny, but I think the Dex-based build is pretty superior.


Personally, I thought the primary imbalance would be with character who weren't combat-focused who can take a quick, easy boost to Reflex Defense.  Like the Hutt Crime Lord on page 27 of Threats of the Galaxy.  He could drop Toughness, which is only giving him a +11 HP, and pick up Predictive Defense; raising his Reflex Defense from 21 to 27 instantly.  That's my problem with the Feat.

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

Eh, I think it would most likely be abused by a heavy armor wearing melee fighter.  That means high strength and high int.  He won't care much about ranged attacks, so he can ignore them.  That sort of guy can easily get a significant boost of 3 or more reflex defense from this one feat at high levels, and if you are ruling that armor doesn't impede his int defense, then he'll certainly get his int defense when flat-footed (since you only lose dex-based and dodge-based reflex defense that way).  So this one feat becomes Uncanny Dodge & 3+ defense, and it only really costs this guy on initiative checks and IF he decides to use a blaster.  Of course, with his high strength, he can grab heavy weapon prof (if he wants), and use a missile launcher or the like for some guaranteed damage on anyone without evasion -- he'll easily be able to carry it and other heavy weapons around if he wants.  Of course, Mighty Throw would take care of most of the ranged needs he might have quite nicely.  Most of the time thought he'll be using powerful charge and power attacking, I imagine.  The only thing holding him back, really, is that there are no +strength +int races, but there are some +strength races with no int penalty (Yuzzem is one, IIRC, and that's +4 strength),


This would be far from an exotic build if you let the feat in and don't give Int-based defenses the same restrictions as Dex-based ones.


By RAW, I think that the Max Dex modifier wouldn't become a Max Int modifier.  I'm think about running it that way as well.  To explain, let's say we have a Soldier who's going to spend 16 points between Dexterity and Intelligence.  He's going to wear armor, but he only wants to use Armor Defense, Improved Armor Defense, and Juggernaught.  Let's look at a few distributions:


15 Dexterity, 15 Intelligence:


...  Now let's say this character wants to use Heavy Battle Armor.  This will cost him one Feat to get Armor Proficiency (Heavy), but that's offest by +2 Fortitude Defense.  Predictive Defense, in this case, would give +2 effective Reflex Defense.  So, the Feat is somewhat helpful here, equalling +2 Reflex Defense.  That's not bad, but also not the most amazing improvement.  Basically, it's +2 Reflex Defense.


8 Dexterity, 18 Intelligence


This is the extreme towards INT.  Obviously the reverse-18 Dexterit, 10 Intellect-isn't going to gain much frmo the Feat, but I'll be using that build for comparitive purposes.  On this one, though, we can gain some real benefits.  With Heavy Armor, this character could have a total set up of +9 Reflex Defense and +4 Fortitude Defense.  In fact, we cuold take that a step farther and call it +10 Reflex Defense and +4 Fortitude Defense from Superior Tech (+9 R-Def and +6 F-Def might be a bit more powerful, but using Protective Armor makes the compareson more straightforward).  However, compared to the reverse character, this character has lost attack and has spent an additional Feat.  So let's look at a straight head-to-head:


8 Dex/18 Int
 +10 R-Def
 -1 Attack
 +4 Skills
 -1 Feat


18 Dex/8 Int
 +9 R-Def
 +4 Attack
 -1 Skills


15 Dex/15 Int
 +7 R-Def
 +2 Attack
 +2 Skills


Now, which character is the best?  Well, that's really hard to say.  Only the top build uses Predictive Defense, the other two do not.  Is it the most powerful one?  Well, if you're looking to make a armor-heavy genius, it's pretty cool, but since you're almost certainly going to be using the Soldier as a starting class, I just don't see have seven skills as too big of a deal.  Meanwhile, the opposite build (18/8) has a lot better attack.  Any way you look at it though, any of those builds have their good sides and bad side.  I can see someone choosing to use any of those.
...




You leave out the "smart" point distribution which would probably be 14/16.  I don't exactly see where you're getting all of your above modifiers but I'll look at that distribution"

14 DEX/16 INT
+8 R-Def (assumes Heavy Battle Armor with IAD and Predictive Defense without an ability cap)
+2 Ranged Attack
+3 Skills


16 DEX/14 INT
+6 to +7 R-Def (+6 from Trooper Armor or HBA, +7 using above
+3 Ranged Attack
+2 Skills


Part of what could break Predictive Defense if MAX DEX is not followed is when it comes to MELEE characters.  Raul points out there could be 5 point swing in RANGED attacks to go along with a "minor" R-Def change when going from INT8/DEX18 to INT18/DEX8 but a melee character who is using STR as their "attack stat" isn't going to care about that reduction in ranged attack.  When such a character does use a ranged attack it could likely be an area attack which only needs to hit a pretty low DEF score.

Clever, you did miss a good number of modifiers though.  You can increase those number to 38 and 49 by taking a class with +4 Reflex Defense added on.


Yep, it wasn't the optimum, I didn't think about the class bonuses.


On Feats, however, your build requires all three armor Feats and Predictive Defense, for a total cost of four Feats.


2 feats,  I get two of the armor feats free for starting soldier, and so do you so it's unfair to count them.


And if you want to look at truely unbalanced then just give the droid Draw Fire and Persuation as a trained skill...now that's looking a lot less balanced since your dex heavy character can just stand next to my droid while it draws fire. Throw in a +4 reflex prestige class and I don't even need to carry a weapon or get independent droid, I can just play target droid and have my allies cluster near me, taking advantage of my 39 reflex defense and the fact that I can make myself the only possible target for the enemies. The potential for combat abuse is alright, the potential for non-combat abuse is definately there.


Just for fun I took a look at a target practice droid. He'd definately be a boost to a team, even without any combat skills:


Target, the Unlucky Droid
Medium Droid Soldier 9/Ace Pilot 1
Init +5; Senses Perception +6
Languages Basic, Binary, +8
Defense Ref 39 (10(base)+10(level)+6(1/2armor)+4(class)+8(int)+1(feat)); Fort 21; Will 22
hp 93; Threshold 21
Speed 6 squares
Melee by Weapon +7
Ranged by Weapon +9
Base Atk +9
Special Actions Wary Defender
Abilities Str 7, Dex 8, Con --, Int 26, Wis 12, Cha 16
Talents Armored Defense, Improved Armored Defense, Juggernaut, Second Skin, Draw Fire,
+1 (Ace Pilot)
Feats Armor Proficiency (light, medium, heavy), Skill Focus (Persuation, +2), Vehicular Combat,
Wary Defender, Weapon Proficiency (pistols, rifles, simple), Predictive Defense, Improved
Defenses
Skills Acrobatics +9, Persuation +18, Pilot +9, +8 trained, +2 focused
Systems Walking Locamotion, 2 hand appendages, heuristic processor, battle armor, heavy
(protective upgrade)

I went with Ace Pilot because it's the cost of a skill (nothing to him) and a feat to get into and has +4 class bonus to ref defense. I'm not 100% sure what his flat-footed would be, would you remove the int bonus (I'd presume so, but not 100% sure so I just left it out for now).


How does he work? Simple. Every turn he uses him move action to get to a position where all of his allies are within 6 spaces, or at least most of them. He then swift action uses Draw Fire, making a Persuation roll with +17 bonus against all enemies will defenses. Anyone who he beats can only attack him on their next turn. He then uses his standard action to fight defensively. Since he's trained in acrobatics and doesn't make any attacks he gets a +10 dodge bonus to reflex defense. Thanks to wary defender he also gets a +2 competance bonus to fort and will defense, making his defenses Ref 49, Fort 23, Will 24.


Since he's a droid he's immune to poison and mind-affecting, so there's not much that can target his fort or will, and not many things at level 10 that can hit his 49 reflex defense (you need a +30 atk to have a chance to hit on anything less than a critical). He can do this every turn and anyone whose Will he beats with his 1d20+17 persuation check can't attack his allies.


Oh, and he could be given a DC 10 translater unit to be able to translate just about anything (he'd only fail on a roll of 1), maybe a shield generator (though that would almost certainly encumber him, if he isn't already encumbered), and has 11 trained and 3 focused skills with a talent left over, throw in treat injury trained and focused and the medical droid talent from Force Unleashed and he's the team damage negator and healer for attacks that get past him. Train and focus in mechanics and he could probably repair himself too, for added brokenness...I want to play him :P.


Yes I know he's also ridiculously expensive, but it's definately possible, especially if another player chips in to help out so he can get better defense. And even before he's fully broken combat he's a great non-combat droid.


You leave out the "smart" point distribution which would probably be 14/16.  I don't exactly see where you're getting all of your above modifiers but I'll look at that distribution"

14 DEX/16 INT
+8 R-Def (assumes Heavy Battle Armor with IAD and Predictive Defense without an ability cap)
+2 Ranged Attack
+3 Skills


16 DEX/14 INT
+6 to +7 R-Def (+6 from Trooper Armor or HBA, +7 using above
+3 Ranged Attack
+2 Skills



I don't find those to be particularly good distributions (15/15 is designed to level-up well), but we can use them too.  One your first build, the +8 Reflex Defense is coming from +5 armor and +3 Int, but we can easily add +1 from Superior Protective Armor, giving us +9.  Now, the reverse to that is the second build would then use Superior Agile Armor, meaning his bonus would be +8, only one point short.  So, the two are fairly comparable.  The first build spends one addition Feat and it nets him +1 R-Def and +1 skill, but he takes -1 to his Ranged attacks.  Really, that's not too impressive.


Part of what could break Predictive Defense if MAX DEX is not followed is when it comes to MELEE characters.  Raul points out there could be 5 point swing in RANGED attacks to go along with a "minor" R-Def change when going from INT8/DEX18 to INT18/DEX8 but a melee character who is using STR as their "attack stat" isn't going to care about that reduction in ranged attack.  When such a character does use a ranged attack it could likely be an area attack which only needs to hit a pretty low DEF score.


True, melee characters could take advantage of it, but by how much?  We're talking a few points, maybe as high as +4-5 with a few really power-gamed builds getting up higher.  And, really, a Dexterity using build is going to preform just about as well, maybe ending up a point or two behind.


To explain, at it's best, armor gives about a +5 Reflex and +4 Fortitude Defense.  The problem that you all are seeing with the Feat is that it lets you gain that benefit without being capped on Dexterity.  But, to do that, you have to spend four Feats and two Talents (three if you don't want to be slow).  At the end of the day, four Feats can also get you +4 Reflex, +1 Fortitude, and +1 Will Defense with ease, and you don't have a cap there anyway.  Even if you present a character in Heavy Armor with 30 Intelligence, the difference between him and a character who doesn't use armor and sticks to Dexterity is going to weight in a couple points behind, but he's also going to save two or three Talents. 


Or the character could use modified stormtrooper armor, which can handle up to a Dexterity of 25, and will increase the above defense bonuses to +6, +3, and +1 while still saving a Talent (Juggernaught).  Head-to-Head, this character doesn't need Juggernaught to keep his speed, he has an ability+armor bonus of +10 and +2 F-Def and a total bonus from Feats of +3 R-Def, +1 F-Def, and +1 W-Def.  The alternate character (Heavy Battle Armor and 25 Intelligence) would have a very comparable bonus of +13 Reflex Defense and +4 Fortitude Defense.  The two are almost identical, except the Intelligence-based build is either slower or needs another Feat and has to lug around heavy armor and not light armor.  That can be a 20 kilo difference very easily.


So, let me ask this: is the problem with this Feat that guys in armor are going to get really high Reflex Defenses?  I have to answer no because the Feat really isn't giving that much of a boost over Dexterity build.  The only way the Intelligence build comes out with a significantly imporved set of defenses with similar cost is if you force the Dexterity build to be inefficient by using armor when they've got a 2-something DEX.


Here's where I see the contradiction: you all seem to be going after armor wearers using this Feat to gain a couple points of Reflex Defense, but you don't seem bothers by the character who can spend just this Feat to get a huge bonus to Reflex Defense.  The problem I see is the game at level 11 which get's a look at this Feat.  Suddenly the three characters in this game with 8-12 Dexterity, but upper teens with Intelligence, can take one Feat and suddenly jump their Reflex Defense up a ton.  A jump from using 12 Dex to 16 int isn't a problem, but when a character has 8 Dex and 20 Int, I start forseeing trouble. 


Really, the problem with armored characters isn't the jump in Reflex Defense, it's the extra skills.  But there are practical limits to that.  I mean, a Soldier (the class that will typically use armor) doesn't have a list of skills that are exactly inspiring.


And, honestly, if melee users get a bit of (ab)use out of this, I'm perfectly fine with that.  Melee characters are very underpowered in this game, they could use the help.

 ...if you are ruling that armor doesn't impede his int defense, then he'll certainly get his int defense when flat-footed (since you only lose dex-based and dodge-based reflex defense that way).


Technically speaking, this would be allowed, but I'd not let a character do that.  As far as I'm conserned, the character is using his Intelligence modifier in the place of his Dexterity modifier.  If he doesn't get a Dexterity modifier, then he can't exchange it for his Intelligence modifier.  However, that is what RAW allows for.  I just wouldn't do it because I think you're hitting some serious balance issues there.


Of course, with his high strength, he can grab heavy weapon prof (if he wants), and use a missile launcher or the like for some guaranteed damage on anyone without evasion -- he'll easily be able to carry it and other heavy weapons around if he wants.


Funny you should say that.  See my above.  A character with an equal Strength but using Dexterity, will only have an easier time carrying an extra, ranged weapon.  And he'll actually be able to hit with it as well.

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Allowing your players to create/buy "Target the Unlucky Droid" in the first place is just bad GMing. Any GM that readily allows that should get whatever's coming to him and his game.

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Allowing your players to create/buy "Target the Unlucky Droid" in the first place is just bad GMing. Any GM that readily allows that should get whatever's coming to him and his game.



OK, you'd have to explain why it is bad GMing, because I don't understand why it is so. Is it bad GMing because the GM allowed the feat into his game as written or are there certain combinations of feats/talents/etc that "good" GMs should disallow? Or is there another explanation?


Allowing your players to create/buy "Target the Unlucky Droid" in the first place is just bad GMing. Any GM that readily allows that should get whatever's coming to him and his game.





At the least the droid, who is a fully heroic mid-level character, should count as additional party member for the purposes of XP distribution and determining encounter difficulty.

Target, the Unlucky Droid


Sorry, I missed the edit my first time 'round.  Let's play around with this droid.  The obvious thing I noticed is that, since you aren't/can't attack anyway, you might as well reprogram those three weapon (or maybe just pistols and rifles) proficiencies for something else. 


How does he work? Simple. Every turn he uses him move action to get to a position where all of his allies are within 6 spaces, or at least most of them. He then swift action uses Draw Fire, making a Persuation roll with +17 bonus against all enemies will defenses. Anyone who he beats can only attack him on their next turn. He then uses his standard action to fight defensively. Since he's trained in acrobatics and doesn't make any attacks he gets a +10 dodge bonus to reflex defense. Thanks to wary defender he also gets a +2 competance bonus to fort and will defense, making his defenses Ref 49, Fort 23, Will 24.


And here's the important question: how does that help you?  If you're fighting mooks, anymore than a +5-8 Reflex Defense puts you at that magic Natural 20.  Even against BBG (main enemies), more than +12-15 isn't helpful.  +49 Reflex Defense, in practice, is no better than +39 (unless you frequently fight bad guys who, at level 10, typically have +20 attack.


If we just outright dropped Predictive Defense, this droids Reflex Defense drops to "only" 30, which will rise to 40 while Fighting Defensively.  The benefit of Predictive Defense to this build and this tactic is absolutely minimal.  You can probably go your whole characters "life-span" and only encounter a couple bad guys who have an attack bonus of your level +11, and even then difference is minimal.  I don't think this build proves any value to Predictive Defense since it's almost worthless to the build.  Even the low Reflex Defense of 30 isn't easy to hit at level 10.  Mooks will practically never get over the Natural 20 hump, and main bad guys will still be struggling to hit much (when a guy who's five levels higher than your team will likely only hit on a 12+, you're pretty hard to hit).


And, let's also add that you could drop two points of your Intellect and get up to 14 Dexterity.  Given the increased cost of higher attributes, this is definitely a good choice.  +2 intelligence is nice, but +6 Dexterity is nicer, at least then you could be a decent pilot.


Since he's a droid he's immune to poison and mind-affecting, so there's not much that can target his fort or will, and not many things at level 10 that can hit his 49 reflex defense (you need a +30 atk to have a chance to hit on anything less than a critical). He can do this every turn and anyone whose Will he beats with his 1d20+17 persuation check can't attack his allies.


He does have one major weakness; area attacks.  Since Draw Fire requires him to not have cover, and since he lacks evasion, autofire is going to one really easy way to hit him.  With a CL 5 mook (using a nonHeroic 6/Soldier 3 build), you're looking at a +9 attack and 3D8+3 damage, which will still deal half damage 75% of the time.  So four mooks shooting at you will average 24.75 damage a round, which gives you about four rounds before you really need to stop and rest.  And since, if you're fighting CL 5 mooks, you'll probably be fighting eight or more, and since you'll probably always get them to shoot you, you're probably going to end up in a lot of pain really fast.


But all that can be solved by getting Evasion, which doesn't hurt your build at all.


The trouble, though, is that Natural 20s still hit, which means that those eight troopers are going to run a ~34% chance of getting a critical hit each round, and they're going to average getting one every two-and-a-half rounds.  Each of those critical hits will average 33 damage, only giving you a life-span of around seven-and-a-half round (or 60 attacks) before you're in serious trouble.  You might not hit that total the first encounter, but by the second or third encounter, you'll be sitting in the back being worthless since you're too damages and can't attack well/easily.


Unfortunately, while this character is pretty decent (the skills would be nice), drawing all the fire like that without a way to negate both area attacks and either the HP to survive or a way to negate critical hits isn't going to work terribly well.  Droids make poor tanks for this reason, they just don't have the HP to take the hits.  I calculate your average HP at 78.5 (you seem to be using DoD standard, +2) which is pretty good, but for someone looking to take most of the hits, you should really be standing on well over 100 HP, and probably with either a way to add bonus HP and move up the condition track.  Damage Reduction is also pretty great.  I think you'd be a bit disapointed with this character.


I'm not saying that's it's not a good build, or that it isn't very overpowered, but it really isn't one I'd suggest.  And it really comlpetely fails to show imbalance on thepart of Predictive Defense since the bonus you're gaining is negligable.


 OK, you'd have to explain why it is bad GMing, because I don't understand why it is so. Is it bad GMing because the GM allowed the feat into his game as written or are there certain combinations of feats/talents/etc that "good" GMs should disallow? Or is there another explanation?


What RD is saying (although he might ninja me on this) is that allowing super-broken builds is bad GMing.  A good GM is probably not going to allow a Serenity-abusing super-sniper (well-built, and you're looking at 300+ damage in a shot), or a Condition Track killer who can either aim or just use Persuade to drive his opponents down the CT by large leaps.  A good GM, typically doesn't allow builds that are going to ruins the game or the players fun (or his own). 


Now, I don't fully agree with that, I'll allow some pretty broken stuff, but there is a line in the sand that a player can cross and where the GM should step in and say that, no, you cannot play this character.


I wouldn't classify the above character as that though.  I think that the person playing that character is going to get so sick of playing him fast enough that I won't have a problem.

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Target was just for fun, I wanted to see how high I could get his def :P.


Who does the Feat Force of Personality benefit? A high Charisma/Low Will fast-talker. Who does the Feat Resilient Strength benefit? A high Strength/Low Con melee fighter. Who does the feat Predictive Defense benefit? A high Int/Low Dex non-combatentn and if there is no "Max Int Bonus" then a high int heavy armor soldier.


Why? Why does it help the soldier? Really, what's the problem with just having the Max Dex bonus apply to your int modifier when using Predictive Defense? It's a feat that, with that limitation, benefits characters whose int modifier is higher than dex modifier and who aren't wearing heavy armor. Without that limitation it benefits characters whose int modifier is higher than dex modifier and aren't wearing heavy armor OR high int characters wearing heavy armor. Should high int heavy armor characters get a bonus? I'm inclined to say no, so I'm inclined to believe that you simply replace your dex modifier's value with your int modifier's value, rather than replacing your dex modifier with int modifier (if just the value changes then it's still a dex bonus and still subject to max dex bonus).


Realisitically speaking the average high int character will still benefit a great deal from Predictive Defense, even with the limitation of Max Dex bonus applying still. On the other hand a munchkin combat character will have no use for the feat with that limitation, but can build or at least enhance an already broken character with it. Sure, GM's should prevent that from happening, but if Predictive Defense still suffers from the max dex bonus, which makes perfect sense as your armor limits your ability to dodge, whether you know about the attack beforehand or not, then the opportunity for abuse is low. I just don't see why you wouldn't interprit the feat as keeping the max bonus in place when it's really left up in the air (it depends on whether you read it as replacing your dex bonus value or replacing your dex bonus, the former is still limited, the latter is not without a houserule, both are valid interpritations of the feat.

The reason I said it was bad GMing was that adding a droid to a party (especially one with heroic levels equal to or exceeding that of the party's--over even coming close to that of the party's level) throws balance right out the window. If the droid was a PC, it would be better because then it is PART of the group's dynamic and is generally balanced. But if you let a player purchase a super droid, what's to keep them from purchasing a whole bunch of them? Or one 20th level one that could wipe out both Palapatine and Darth Vader at once?


If you insist on allowing this, however, at a minimum the droid should suck up an equal share of the XP (and probably not level up in most circumstances anyways). Even then, I would reccomend the droid having few to no heroic levels in order to minimize its "footprint"--its encroachment on the party's heroic spotlight time. The player should definitely not build the droid. At best the player should tell the GM what he is looking for and then the GM pick a published droid that fits the role or make one himself.


There are so many reasons not to let your players have free reign with the droid rules it's not even funny. It's one thing for a player to buy a published translater droid, medical droid, or whatever, to use as a utility droid outside of combat, but its quite another for a player to custom build his own super droid with 10 soldier levels and a built-in missile launcher or five.


If I ever allowed such a powerful NPC droid in the party (and allowed the PCs to give it orders as is traditional for droids) it's going to be because it is part of my story arc, not because the party wanted one (and it would be treated as though it were an artifact in D&D--with great care). If a PC up and said "I want to buy/build a droid" I would ensure that such a droid would be extremely costly if it was unique--not being mass produced and all--and left behind a very small footprint.


After all, if I let my player's buy/make powerful droids willynilly, then their is no point in their taking CrimeLord levels for minions, taking any talents to get cohorts (since you are essentially giving them those for free), or any number of other mechanics that have just been completely bypassed/invalidated. In fact, there would be no point in even adventuring if they had enough money for several droids equivalent to themselves in power--they would just build a small army and send them on the missions.


This is one of the few things that I agree with Rodney on (or perhaps it was Sarli who said it?): Players should not be permitted to abuse the droid rules and invalidate other game mechanics.


Some groups can (and do) have lots of fun doing this kind of thing for a while, but when their game balance begins to break down and their once serious campaign turns absurdly broken, I'll have no sympathy for the GM who let it all happen in the first place.

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Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply he wasn't a PC. I wouldn't even touch allowing custom droid NPCs to be purchased with a 10ft pole, Target was a PC in my mind from the start.


I wouldn't classify the above character as that though.  I think that the person playing that character is going to get so sick of playing him fast enough that I won't have a problem.


I personally would enjoy playing him (tons of RP time wondering why he's always getting shot at, and he's ridiculously useful outside of combat) and I have a friend who always plays non-combat PCs with high int, asking him to play Target here would be like asking if he wants to have the best character ever :P.

Who does the Feat Force of Personality benefit? A high Charisma/Low Will fast-talker. Who does the Feat Resilient Strength benefit? A high Strength/Low Con melee fighter. Who does the feat Predictive Defense benefit? A high Int/Low Dex non-combatentn and if there is no "Max Int Bonus" then a high int heavy armor soldier.


A high-Int, heavy armor user, melee attacking soldier.  The ranged fighters, as we handled above, aren't particularly helped by it.


On the first two, I have no problem with Resilient Strength since I very rarely see a high-Strength, low-Constitution character, but Force if Personality does kind or worry me.  I can see a lot of diplomat/face builds dumping Wisdom now, while before it controlled their most important Defense. 


Why? Why does it help the soldier? Really, what's the problem with just having the Max Dex bonus apply to your int modifier when using Predictive Defense? It's a feat that, with that limitation, benefits characters whose int modifier is higher than dex modifier and who aren't wearing heavy armor. Without that limitation it benefits characters whose int modifier is higher than dex modifier and aren't wearing heavy armor OR high int characters wearing heavy armor.


I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it just seems to me like you're honing in on one sub-group of the problem and not the whole problem.  This Feat is a problem because of what it does.  With smaller number, it's not such a big deal, but for a lot of characters who were designed more on the extreme, this Feat is easily giving characters a +5-6 Reflex Defense.  These are characters who were already built and balanced at level 8 who suddenly realize now that they can get a huge boost in Reflex Defense for one Feat. 


The melee heavy armor users are a small group of this problem.  Would limitting them to a max INT bonus "fix" any imbalance?  Sure it would, but it doesn't fix the actual problem.  Let's say a Talent came out that gave the character +6 speed.  That would be a problem because it would be imbalanced.  Sure, we could say that the +6 speed doesn't include flying speeds, so droid can't get themselves up to 18 squares of speed, but that's just focusing on one element of the problem.


 On the other hand a munchkin combat character will have no use for the feat with that limitation, but can build or at least enhance an already broken character with it. Sure, GM's should prevent that from happening, but if Predictive Defense still suffers from the max dex bonus, which makes perfect sense as your armor limits your ability to dodge, whether you know about the attack beforehand or not, then the opportunity for abuse is low.


Look at your above build.  Kick the armor part of that build out and you'd have a fairly typical skill-junky.  You maxxed out your Intellect to get a ton of skills.  Now, start that character in Noble and he can get 14 skills by level 8.  In fact, I'd suggest taking Educated as a Talent, doing a multiclassing sweep (get all the base Talents at level 1, with 2 in Soldier and Jedi).  By reprogramming your seven Feats from starting and multiclassing to Skill Training and Skill Focus, you can get a huge array of various skills.  Then you can use bonus Feats to get even more Skill Training and Skill Focus.  It's a cool character design, but I digress.


The point I was working towards was this.  Before Galaxy at War this was a fun, interesting, and fairly balanced concept.  I even played a similar design once (although I evened out the other ability scores).  With Galaxy at War, and using Predictive Defense, your balanced droid can take one Feat to go from a previous R-Def of 23 (10 base + 10 level + 4 class - 1 Dex) to an awsome R-Def of 32 (10 base + 10 level + 4 class + 8 Int).  That's +9 Reflex Defense for one Feat.  The trouble isn't that melee armor using soldiers can possibly abuse this, it's that the Feat is just prone to abuse everywhere. 


 I just don't see why you wouldn't interprit the feat as keeping the max bonus in place when it's really left up in the air (it depends on whether you read it as replacing your dex bonus value or replacing your dex bonus, the former is still limited, the latter is not without a houserule, both are valid interpritations of the feat.


I interpret based on my best explaination and understanding of the rules.  My method is correct because Predictive Defense does not say anything about exchanging or trading in one bonus for the other.  It let's you choose from the base which one to use.  There is no way to infer a process of trading Dexterity for Intelligence from the Feat.  Things that refer to the Dexterity modifier simply do not apply to the Intelligence modifier.

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There is no way to infer a process of trading Dexterity for Intelligence from the Feat.  Things that refer to the Dexterity modifier simply do not apply to the Intelligence modifier.


Perhaps it's just my experience in other game systems (particurally heroclix) talking but I disagree. The feat specifically says to use either your Int Bonus or Dex Bonus when calculating Reflex defense. How do you use your Int bonus? That's nowhere in the Reflex Defense rules, nowhere in there does it mention being able to use int. However a glance at the fluff and a few moments thought leads to the conclusion that you use your Int bonus in place of your Dex bonus. However whether you do that by replacing the bonus value (in which case max dex still applies, same as how rerolls apply to skills when you replace them with another skill value) or by replacing the bonus (at which point it's an int bonus to reflex defense rather than a dex bonus to reflex defense whose value was replaced by your int bonus) is up in the air. The feat is way too short for what it does and it makes not mention of whether you replace the bonus or just the bonus value (from a C++ standard, are we replacing the pointer to dex bonus to point to int bonus, or simply changing the value of the dex bonus pointer for this particular application? It could really go either way, and the only time it would come up would be when you get max dex bonuses).


But yeah, the feat is looking more and more overpowered for non-armored characters the more I read...makes me glad my group isn't using the book for any current games (and I think I'll suggest that when we get back to our 'all books owned are allowed' game we ban these three feats).

It's nice to see some conclusive results :P


How on earth are these balanced in 4e, where everyone gets them for free? I mean, yeah, everyone gets them for free, but doesn't that lead to an incredibly dump stat system?


Hmm. So what should I put in the sheet?

This got asked over at the d20 boards by RD, but thought I'd chime in here.


For Predictive Defense, your Intelligence bonus would still be capped by the Max Dex Bonus trait of whatever armor you're wearing.


In every case in the system that allowed you to substitute one ability score for another, the swapped score still follows all the same rules as the original score unless it directly cites otherwise.


An excellent example was brought up by way of the long-handled lightsaber (Darth Nihl's weapon).  In short, even though the game text says "have to give up adding twice your Strength to get the d10 damage dice," the same restriction applies to the weapon even if using the Ataru talent to use your Dexterity instead of Strength for the damage rolls.


Since the feat makes no provision for waiving the Max Dex Bonus for armor, then it doesn't, just like being able to speak Mando'a as a language and being raised as a Mandalorian doesn't automatically make someone's character an instant bad-ass that can walk on water.  Just from skimming some of the examples given in this thread, being able to use Int instead of Dex is already enough of a boon for some character builds.  Giving it an extra kicker in the form of being able to bypass a game restriction that helps keep the higher-end armors in check compared to their lighter kin is unbalancing (even more so perhaps than the feats themselves already are in some folk's eyes).


If you're having issues conceptualizing it, consider that while you may indeed be smart enough to outwit a blaster shot, wearing bulky armor is going to limit how quickly you can adjust your position to avoid getting tagged.


As for being balanced in 4e, part of it has to do with everyone getting it for free, and that classes that rely on Dexterity or Intelligence as their main "to-hit" ability score or get a significant kicker based on those stats tend to only have access to the lighter armors.  Also, 4e was built with this sort of thing being S.O.P.  I'll admit that I ran into some issues adopting the 4e approach to Ref/Fort/Will Defenses in the short time that had it listed as in option in my house rules files, which lead to it quickly being relagated to "optional options" section and something I've never used after a couple trial runs.

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This got asked over at the d20 boards by RD, but thought I'd chime in here.


For Predictive Defense, your Intelligence bonus would still be capped by the Max Dex Bonus trait of whatever armor you're wearing.


In every case in the system that allowed you to substitute one ability score for another, the swapped score still follows all the same rules as the original score unless it directly cites otherwise.


An excellent example was brought up by way of the long-handled lightsaber (Darth Nihl's weapon).  In short, even though the game text says "have to give up adding twice your Strength to get the d10 damage dice," the same restriction applies to the weapon even if using the Ataru talent to use your Dexterity instead of Strength for the damage rolls.


Since the feat makes no provision for waiving the Max Dex Bonus for armor, then it doesn't, just like being able to speak Mando'a as a language and being raised as a Mandalorian doesn't automatically make someone's character an instant bad-ass that can walk on water.  Just from skimming some of the examples given in this thread, being able to use Int instead of Dex is already enough of a boon for some character builds.  Giving it an extra kicker in the form of being able to bypass a game restriction that helps keep the higher-end armors in check compared to their lighter kin is unbalancing (even more so perhaps than the feats themselves already are in some folk's eyes).


If you're having issues conceptualizing it, consider that while you may indeed be smart enough to outwit a blaster shot, wearing bulky armor is going to limit how quickly you can adjust your position to avoid getting tagged.


As for being balanced in 4e, part of it has to do with everyone getting it for free, and that classes that rely on Dexterity or Intelligence as their main "to-hit" ability score or get a significant kicker based on those stats tend to only have access to the lighter armors.  Also, 4e was built with this sort of thing being S.O.P.  I'll admit that I ran into some issues adopting the 4e approach to Ref/Fort/Will Defenses in the short time that had it listed as in option in my house rules files, which lead to it quickly being relagated to "optional options" section and something I've never used after a couple trial runs.




I guess you're a game designer now, so this warrants being added to the FAQ.
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Perhaps it's just my experience in other game systems (particurally heroclix) talking but I disagree. The feat specifically says to use either your Int Bonus or Dex Bonus when calculating Reflex defense. How do you use your Int bonus? That's nowhere in the Reflex Defense rules, nowhere in there does it mention being able to use int. However a glance at the fluff and a few moments thought leads to the conclusion that you use your Int bonus in place of your Dex bonus. However whether you do that by replacing the bonus value (in which case max dex still applies, same as how rerolls apply to skills when you replace them with another skill value) or by replacing the bonus (at which point it's an int bonus to reflex defense rather than a dex bonus to reflex defense whose value was replaced by your int bonus) is up in the air. The feat is way too short for what it does and it makes not mention of whether you replace the bonus or just the bonus value (from a C++ standard, are we replacing the pointer to dex bonus to point to int bonus, or simply changing the value of the dex bonus pointer for this particular application? It could really go either way, and the only time it would come up would be when you get max dex bonuses).


To put it in another way, say you have a dollar bill and you want quarters.  Typically, Feats, Talents, and other abilities that let you trade out one attribute for another say that you can exchange your dollar bill for quarters.  So whatever you had previosly is exchanged.  In this case, however, they didn't say that you can exchange, turn in, or convert that dollar bill to four quarters, they said that you can pick one or the other.


I simply don't see how you can read it to say that it has some type of exchange.  I understand that you think that the actually working is how you say, but I don't see any wording which would indicate any type of exchange.  It's a problem with the Feats.


But yeah, the feat is looking more and more overpowered for non-armored characters the more I read...makes me glad my group isn't using the book for any current games (and I think I'll suggest that when we get back to our 'all books owned are allowed' game we ban these three feats).


Sounds like a good plan to me.  I'm considering doing the same.

How on earth are these balanced in 4e, where everyone gets them for free? I mean, yeah, everyone gets them for free, but doesn't that lead to an incredibly dump stat system?


When you can work something like this in from the ground up, it isn't such a problem.  All characters get this benefit for free, and from what I've hear, 4E characters do tend to have serious dump stats.  It's balanced, though, because the game was built to make it balanced.  In SAGA it's a problem because the game was not designed around the idea of making these Feats balanced.


Something similar could, possibly, be balanced, but it would need some work.  Changing Dexterity to Intelligence was a big mistake because those are the two best stats in the game for two different types of characters.  If the exchange had been for Strength (you're just that tough) or Wisdom (seriously, for predictive defense, the perception abliity seems more natural) it might have been better.

In every case in the system that allowed you to substitute one ability score for another, the swapped score still follows all the same rules as the original score unless it directly cites otherwise.


The wording does not indicate any swap, it's a straight option.  That's why, technically, the Max Dex doesn't apply.  How the Talent is written, it indicates that you would treat your Reflex Defense as if it always was tied to your Intelligence. 


An excellent example was brought up by way of the long-handled lightsaber (Darth Nihl's weapon).  In short, even though the game text says "have to give up adding twice your Strength to get the d10 damage dice," the same restriction applies to the weapon even if using the Ataru talent to use your Dexterity instead of Strength for the damage rolls.


The wording there is an actual swap.  Like the above example, you can't swap out a dollar bill for four quarters if you don't start with the dollar bill.  If you're just giving the option between the dollar bill and the four quarters, and told that the dollar was only worth .50$, then you could still take the four quarters and get 1.00$. 

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In this case, however, they didn't say that you can exchange, turn in, or convert that dollar bill to four quarters, they said that you can pick one or the other.

I simply don't see how you can read it to say that it has some type of exchange.  I understand that you think that the actually working is how you say, but I don't see any wording which would indicate any type of exchange.



I'm not saying it's an exchange, I'm saying it's a replacement. I'm just saying that it's a replacement of the VALUE rather than of the BONUS. The feat says "You can use either your Dexterity modifier or your Intelligence modifier to determine your Reflex Defense." So then, explain to me how you're supposed to use your Int modifier to determine your reflex defense? I don't see any official rules as to how to do that. I reiterate, there are no rules for what to do with an int bonus to reflex defense. There are rules as to what to do with a dex bonus, but there are absolutely no rules to handle an int bonus to reflex defense anywhere PERIOD. So if you're replacing the type of bonus, what then? Now you've got this int bonus sitting here and no rules as to how to handle it, do you add it straight on or is it subject to certain maximums like dex is? On the other hand if you just replace the value and leave it classed as a dex bonus there are plenty of rules as to what to do.


Concluding that it must be a replacement of the BONUS rather than the VALUE, despite the most common type of replacement being that of value (as you yourself mentioned) is just silly in my opinion. If it doesn't mention how you do it then you look at how it's normally done, in this case just about every other replacement talent/feat involves a replacement of the VALUE rather than the BONUS and so why would you do it any differently here?


I'm saying that, since this is how it works everywhere else, you replace the value of your dex bonus to reflex defense with that of your int bonus to reflex defense. That solves the first post problem (since it's still a dex bonus max dex bonus applies), fits the standard of the other talents/feats that perform a similar function (all* of which specify that you're not changing the type of check/bonus but just the value) and is more balanced. Why would you want to read it any other way?


*that I know of

I'm not saying it's an exchange, I'm saying it's a replacement. I'm just saying that it's a replacement of the VALUE rather than of the BONUS. The feat says "You can use either your Dexterity modifier or your Intelligence modifier to determine your Reflex Defense." So then, explain to me how you're supposed to use your Int modifier to determine your reflex defense? I don't see any official rules as to how to do that. I reiterate, there are no rules for what to do with an int bonus to reflex defense. There are rules as to what to do with a dex bonus, but there are absolutely no rules to handle an int bonus to reflex defense anywhere PERIOD. So if you're replacing the type of bonus, what then? Now you've got this int bonus sitting here and no rules as to how to handle it, do you add it straight on or is it subject to certain maximums like dex is? On the other hand if you just replace the value and leave it classed as a dex bonus there are plenty of rules as to what to do.


So, because there isn't rules that tell you how to use your Intelligence bonus (as if adding your INT modifier is something so complex you need extra rules to explain it), you're saying that we should essentially scrap the wording of the Feat and assume it's a replacement in value.  The the effect of the Feat is that you simple use the number from your INT modifier as if it were your DEX modfier for purposes of Reflex Defense. 


That's, and I mean no offence, pretty far out there.  You're essentially arguing that the very notion of adding your Intelligence modifier to you Reflex Defense and not adding you Dexterity modifer is so insanely complex that we'd need a whole set of additional rules to make sense of it.  You ask how am I suppose to use my Intelligence modifier to Reflex Defense, so I'll explain.  Go to page 145.  There is an entry that says, "Reflex Defense: 10 + your heroic level or armor bonus + Dexterity modifier + class bonus + natural armor bonus + size modifier"  That is how you determine your Reflex Defense.  When you use either your Dexterity modifier or your Intelligence modifier, you simply change the formula to read, "Reflex Defense: 10 + your heroic level or armor bonus + Intelligence modifier + class bonus + natural armor bonus + size modifier"  That's it.  That is the effect of the Feat as written. 


You argument says that the rules are all confusing and complex, that we need all these extra rules because nothing tells us how we're suppose to add our Intelligence modifier to our Reflex Defense.  That's assuming ignorance, that there's a whole set of rules and details that we don't and can't know.  The rule is not unclear.  And from there you seem to draw the conclusion that because we don't have all these supposedly necessary rules for how we're suppose to use our Intelligence modifier, that we can just assume that all Dexterity rules apply.   


Concluding that it must be a replacement of the BONUS rather than the VALUE, despite the most common type of replacement being that of value (as you yourself mentioned) is just silly in my opinion. If it doesn't mention how you do it then you look at how it's normally done, in this case just about every other replacement talent/feat involves a replacement of the VALUE rather than the BONUS and so why would you do it any differently here?


Because it's written totally differently.  I don't care if every other rule out there says that you must make a Reaction after the triggering action, if the specific rule I'm looking at says that it happens before the triggering action, then it happens before the triggering action.  It's just poor practice to automatically assume that each and every similar rule works in exactly the same way, even when the descriptions of those rules differ. 


I'm saying that, since this is how it works everywhere else, you replace the value of your dex bonus to reflex defense with that of your int bonus to reflex defense.


Which is precisely not what the book says.  I'm not interested in just making up what I think it should be because that's what everything else says, I'm interested in actually getting to the core of what the book says.  That is the only logical, rational way to read rule.  Then, once you understand the rule fully and understand exactly what it says, then you can start fixing the problems.  Until then, you aren't fixing anything, you're just ignoring the problem.


...fits the standard of the other talents/feats that perform a similar function (all* of which specify that you're not changing the type of check/bonus but just the value)


If all, or practically all, of them specify this why would you assume that Predictive Defense, which doesn't specify this and is worded very differently, works the same way?  That's just illogical.  You admit that these Feats are worded differently and omit the critical lines which you're simply assuming. 


Why would you want to read it any other way?


That's just a silly question.  I don't "want" to read it any certain way.  I "want" to read it the right way and understand it as written.  That's working by RAW.  You aren't doing that, you're forcing your own desired outcome onto the rule.  It's like those people who argued that Fighting Defensively included an attack.  They wanted it to work that way and so they twisted the whole thing around to work that way.  That is not an honest, unbiased method to interpretting rules.  That's what you're doing though.  You're forcing, through a complicated, unclear, and unprovable workaround, your own idea of how the rule should work into being how the rule does work in your mind.


See, next time this question comes around, I'm going to answer with something like it's a mistake, they just didn't think through the effects of the Feat enough.  All those things which affect your Dexterity bonus should also affect your Intelligence bonus; including Max Dex bonuses on armor, Flat-Footed and Denied Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense, and other conditions. 


Let me put it in this perspective: had someone proposed Predictive Defense as a house-rule, and when this question came up, would you seriously buy your own argument or would you say they should change it so it's clear and understandable?  Just because it's an official Feat does not mean that we all have to run through hoops to try and justify a mistake or error. 

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these


I guess you're a game designer now, so this warrants being added to the FAQ.




If you are going to add this as an FAQ bit, I'd suggest keeping it as an unofficial answer.


I may have helped work on the book, but my answers are no more official than Gary Astleford's or Sterling Hershey's or Patrick Stutzman's.  We can certainly speak to the sections we wrote of the products we worked on, but since we're not WotC employees and are in fact a collection of freelancers, the official answers really only come from Jedi Counseling or the errata.  Even Rodney's comments on the O66 podcast should probably be viewed more as "here's how I'd handle it."  Granted, he tends to be the one that writes the errata, but until we see it in print...


 


Raul,


Swap and Exchange are pretty much interchangeable terms in modern lexicon.  And again, the feat does not say that you get to suspend/revise any aspect of the rules other than which ability score is used.  The general rule of thumb I go with is that unless a feat/talent says it suspends or overrides a rule, it doesn't.

"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid." - Eddie Izzard Proud member of the Gamer Nation.

This discussion is reminiscient of the old threads about Unbalance Opponent that dicated that an opponent making a melee attack against you loses their Strength bonus to hit.  This is just that debate all over again.  Does that mean that Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing renders the talent useless?

Swap and Exchange are pretty much interchangeable terms in modern lexicon.


Yes, but this Feat says neither.  If it said or implied either of those, I'd be perfectly happy, but the Feat does not give you an exchange, swap, or let you use INT in the place of or instead of DEX. 


  And again, the feat does not say that you get to suspend/revise any aspect of the rules other than which ability score is used.  The general rule of thumb I go with is that unless a feat/talent says it suspends or overrides a rule, it doesn't.


I am not suspending or revising any rule.  The rule on Max Dex is that that number is the highest Dexterity modifier you are allowed to add to your Reflex Defense.  If you have a Max Dex of +2, you can only increase your Reflex Defense by +2 from Dexterity.  None of those rules talk about Intelligence, nor do they cap INT. 


Your method requires us to add rules which say that the Intelligence modifier is treated just like the Dexterity modifier when it comes to Reflex Defense.  There aren't rules which talk about a Max Int bonus, or a condition of being Denied your Intelligence bonus to Reflex Defense.  They just don't exist.  Since there also isn't a rule which says that you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier, but only that you may choose one or the other. 

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

Well if you are using one bonus in place of another. Where does it say the rules for the first modifier no longer apply?


 

Yes, but this Feat says neither.  If it said or implied either of those, I'd be perfectly happy, but the Feat does not give you an exchange, swap, or let you use INT in the place of or instead of DEX.


Predictive Defense - "You can use either your Dexterity Modifier or your Intelligence Modifier to determine your Reflex defense"


Exchange - "the act or process of substituting one thing for another" (Merriam-Webster)


Looks like an exchange to me. You give up your Dex modifier to defense to substitute the Int modifier to defense, that's clear from the feat, and the definition of an exchange. It doesn't specify that you ignore the normal rules, and every other thing in Saga edition that's similar to this, as well as the equivolent feat from D&D, obeys the same rules as the original in this situation. I don't see any reason to deliberatly read this feat in a way that goes against everything else when it's possible to read it in a way that makes it work exactly the same as other feats and talents. Here's how I read it:


Core Rulebook pg17 Ability Modifiers "The modifier is the number you add or subtract from the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability."


Modifiers are just numbers, nothing more. What number you use is based on what Ability is related the current happening, or what feats are in effect (general rule overruled by specific rule). Predictive Defense doesn't change what ability is used to determine your reflex defense, it changes what modifier is used, what number is added. No rulefix or change neccesary, you're just changing a number, nothing more, so everything that applies to the dexterity modifier that's added to reflex defense applies to the intelligence modifier, since it's still a dexterity bonus, you're just using your int modifier thanks to the feat. There's no reason to make it an int bonus to reflex defense when just making it a dex bonus to reflex defense with the int modifier is more correct according to the feat (which makes specific mention of modifiers), fits the other rules and clarifications better, and avoids any problems.


This discussion is reminiscient of the old threads about Unbalance Opponent that dicated that an opponent making a melee attack against you loses their Strength bonus to hit.  This is just that debate all over again.  Does that mean that Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing renders the talent useless?




Excellent point.  And according to Raul's logic (fuzzy as it may be), then Unbalance Opponent would indeed be completely useless against anyone using Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing since they aren't using their Strength to the attack roll.



Well if you are using one bonus in place of another. Where does it say the rules for the first modifier no longer apply?




That's just it, the feat doesn't say that at all.  Some folks (Raul being the most vocal) are reading more into the feat than what's actually there.

"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid." - Eddie Izzard Proud member of the Gamer Nation.


 


Excellent point.  And according to Raul's logic (fuzzy as it may be), then Unbalance Opponent would indeed be completely useless against anyone using Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing since they aren't using their Strength to the attack roll.


 





But that's exactly the case with Unbalance Opponent. It calls out the Strength modifier, not ability modifiers in general. And there are ways to substitute Dex for Str in the core book, so it's not like Unbalance Opponent was designed in a vacuum.

As written, Unbalance Opponent doesn't affect Finesse/Ataru/Noble Fencing Style builds.

Whether this has any bearing on Predictive Defense is another matter.

Excellent point.  And according to Raul's logic (fuzzy as it may be), then Unbalance Opponent would indeed be completely useless against anyone using Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing since they aren't using their Strength to the attack roll.


That actually sounds pretty realistic. It's harder to get someone out of balance if they are using good footwork compared to someone who relies more on attacking with power. You can't really fight based on charisma in the real world but if you could I can certainly see someone who likes to get brutes out of balance have trouble with charisma based fighters as well. It's also not bad to be able to counter feats instead of them just being invincible abilities.

In the same manner it makes sense that someone who gets out of harm by predicting what's going to happen doesn't get hindered much by armor. It doesn't really make sense that your ability to move still hinders your ability to defend yourself through predicting the scenario since then you should also be just as hindered by having a low Dex score (and thus not being able to move well enough at all, armor or not).


I can certainly see the idea that it breaks the balance too much though and in games that focus on game balance you often have to say that some logical things don't work.

The way I run it:


If you're using an "ability swap" feat or ability, the swapped ability is subject to all the normal limitations and benefits of the base ability.


Thus, using your Int for RefDef is capped by your armor's Max Dex Bonus, you lose it when flat-footed, etc.


(See also, UtF subsititution feats.)

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The way I run it:


If you're using an "ability swap" feat or ability, the swapped ability is subject to all the normal limitations and benefits of the base ability.


Thus, using your Int for RefDef is capped by your armor's Max Dex Bonus, you lose it when flat-footed, etc.


(See also, UtF subsititution feats.)




That's certainly the way we are running it (and we're houseruling that everyone gets those feats for free).  Even if you don't have people getting them for free though, for a feat you get way too much benefit if you don't have them act the same.

Predictive Defense - "You can use either your Dexterity Modifier or your Intelligence Modifier to determine your Reflex defense"

Exchange - "the act or process of substituting one thing for another" (Merriam-Webster)


Looks like an exchange to me.



Why?  An exchange would be like me having a dollar bill and trading, exchanging, swapping, or whatever that dollar bill for four quarters.  Basically, I can have four quarters instead of a dollar bill.  This is how most similar Feats and Talents are written.  Predictive Defense and its buddies are not written with that type of exchange or instead wording.  They're written like I can either have a dollar bill or four quarters.  Essentially:


Typically: 1 bill --> 4 quarters
P. Defense: 1 bill or 4 quarters


There's a big difference between those two. 


 Predictive Defense doesn't change what ability is used to determine your reflex defense, it changes what modifier is used, what number is added.


I don't really see how that's even possible.  If I'm using my Intelligence modifier, I'm using my Intelligence ability score to determine that modifier. 


But even if we go with that, the Max Dex wouldn't apply.  An ability bonus is a positive ability modifier.  The Max Dex is the highest possible Dexterity bonus you're allowed to apply.  Since this is an Intelligence bonus, the Max Dex wouldn't apply.


It seems to me like you're wanting to just switch out the number.  That, after the Feat has worked it's magic, that you're still gaining a Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense, but you've just swapped out the numbers.  I don't see any backing for that in the Feat though.  To do that, it would need to say something more like, "For purposes of determining your Reflex Defense, you may use either your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier as if it were your Dexterity modifier."  Since there just isn't anything to suggest that, I don't think it fits. 


Excellent point.  And according to Raul's logic (fuzzy as it may be), then Unbalance Opponent would indeed be completely useless against anyone using Weapon Finesse or Noble Fencing since they aren't using their Strength to the attack roll.


Not true, although we've actually debated that one in the past quite a bit.  Let me throw a couple quotes your way to explain (all emphasis is mine):


CORE Page 40 Force Intuition: "You can use your Use the Force check modifier instead of you Initiative modifier..."
CORE Page 89 Weapon Finess: "...you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls."
CORE Page 218 Ataru: "You may add your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on damage rolls.."
KotOR page 27 Noble Fencing Style: "...you can use your Charisma modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls."


"Instead of" essentially means "in the place of".  So, in the second and fourth examples, you're using one ability modifier to make an attack in the place of another.  If your opponent has Unbalance Opponent, then you don't get your Strength modifier to start with, so you can't convert it to something else.  All of these example do have an exchange.  Going back to my money example, if you can have four quarters instead of one dollar bill, then you have an exchange.


Predictive Defense and friends, however, don't say anything like this.  They change the value from the base while all the above examples trade out the ability modifier.  To put it in a simple format, your Reflex Defense is:


10 + your heroic level or armor bonus + Dexterity modifier + class bonus + misc.


With Predictive Defense, it's:
                                                                your Dexterity Modifier
10 + your heroic level or armor bonus +                                      + class bonus + misc.
                                                                your Intelligence Modifier


Or, to use my money example, and exchange would be giving 1 dollar bill for four quarters.  Predictive Defense isn't an exchange, it's an option.  It would be like being asked whether you want one dollar bill or four quarters.  You don't need to trade anything around. 


 That's just it, the feat doesn't say that at all.  Some folks (Raul being the most vocal) are reading more into the feat than what's actually there.


Hoestly, I'd say that about you all.  I'm just reading it straight from what's there.  Y'all are reading a lot more than is there by adding all this extra stuff to it.

But that's exactly the case with Unbalance Opponent. It calls out the Strength modifier, not ability modifiers in general. And there are ways to substitute Dex for Str in the core book, so it's not like Unbalance Opponent was designed in a vacuum.

As written, Unbalance Opponent doesn't affect Finesse/Ataru/Noble Fencing Style builds.

Whether this has any bearing on Predictive Defense is another matter.



I don't really thing it does because they're written in different ways (one is an exchange one is a straight option), but you pretty much summed up why a lot of people think that Unbalance Opponent doesn't and shouldnt be effective against Dexterity or Charisma.

That actually sounds pretty realistic. It's harder to get someone out of balance if they are using good footwork compared to someone who relies more on attacking with power. You can't really fight based on charisma in the real world but if you could I can certainly see someone who likes to get brutes out of balance have trouble with charisma based fighters as well. It's also not bad to be able to counter feats instead of them just being invincible abilities.


Which is the non-RAW side of that argument, which is also good.  A person trained to counter and redirect strength isn't going to be able to use those abilities against someone who doesn't use that strength much.


In the same manner it makes sense that someone who gets out of harm by predicting what's going to happen doesn't get hindered much by armor. It doesn't really make sense that your ability to move still hinders your ability to defend yourself through predicting the scenario since then you should also be just as hindered by having a low Dex score (and thus not being able to move well enough at all, armor or not).


Non-RAW, cinematic arguments like this one are great, but they can go either way in this case.  I can see why someone would argue that the Max Dex should apply because the armor still slows you down.


However, let me build on your point a bit.  Dexterity is, when added to your Reflex Defense, is essentially your ability to doge and avoid harm.  It's the speed at which you can duck that axe blow, or your ability to notice a blaster being shot at you, or (give then movie speed of blasters) your ability to see one coming and move out of the way.  Essentially, you're quick, agile, and good at avoiding getting hit by things that hurt you.  With Predictive Defense, however, that's totally irrelevant.  You could be a 40 Dexterity super-human or a 1 Dexterity cripple, and still have the exact same Reflex Defense.  There's no corrolation between how well or quickly you can move and how much of a bonus Predictive Defense can give.  To say that it's unrealistic that armor shouldn't put some restriction on the character is kind of absurd when the Feat itself refuses to use those restrictions.  In fact, you could be totally a completely helpless and unable to move, and even though your Dexterity score would effecitively be 0, you could still be gaining the full benefit of that 20 Intelligence (alternitively, you might disallow any bonus since Helpless states that the character is denied Dex, but he's still definitely be gaining a modifier as if he has 10 Intelligence). 


With this Feat, your speed, agility, and general ability to dodge attacks is no longer important or relevant, so any argument for the Max Dex bonus based one the supposed realism of the character not being as agile is inheirantly flawed and kind of denies the very basis of the Feat. 


I can certainly see the idea that it breaks the balance too much though and in games that focus on game balance you often have to say that some logical things don't work.


It only really can be broken with two groups, armored melee fighters and smart character who're going tobe able to grab a huge bonus to their Reflex Defenses easily.  For the latter group, enforcing a Max Int bonus won't help.  For the former group, they could stand to have a bit of help.  Honestly, you could make melee Weapon Focuses a +3, or even +5, bonus and I'd still probably think those guys are too weak. 

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

Non-RAW, cinematic arguments like this one are great, but they can go either way in this case.  I can see why someone would argue that the Max Dex should apply because the armor still slows you down.

However, let me build on your point a bit.  Dexterity is, when added to your Reflex Defense, is essentially your ability to doge and avoid harm.  It's the speed at which you can duck that axe blow, or your ability to notice a blaster being shot at you, or (give then movie speed of blasters) your ability to see one coming and move out of the way.  Essentially, you're quick, agile, and good at avoiding getting hit by things that hurt you.  With Predictive Defense, however, that's totally irrelevant.  You could be a 40 Dexterity super-human or a 1 Dexterity cripple, and still have the exact same Reflex Defense.  There's no corrolation between how well or quickly you can move and how much of a bonus Predictive Defense can give.  To say that it's unrealistic that armor shouldn't put some restriction on the character is kind of absurd when the Feat itself refuses to use those restrictions.  In fact, you could be totally a completely helpless and unable to move, and even though your Dexterity score would effecitively be 0, you could still be gaining the full benefit of that 20 Intelligence (alternitively, you might disallow any bonus since Helpless states that the character is denied Dex, but he's still definitely be gaining a modifier as if he has 10 Intelligence). 


With this Feat, your speed, agility, and general ability to dodge attacks is no longer important or relevant, so any argument for the Max Dex bonus based one the supposed realism of the character not being as agile is inheirantly flawed and kind of denies the very basis of the Feat.



I switched up a few things in my post before I submitted it but unfortunately made an error doing os so it isn't as clear as it should be. I'm not entirely sure if you got my point and agree with me or if you misunderstood me and thought I spoke for the max dex being applicable (which I didn't).

We seem to be on the same page in any case. My point was that it's unrealistic if you get hampered by armor that actually is capable of allowing better movement than you are physically capable of (i.e. having lower Dex bonus than the Max Dex bonus on the armor). Thus the armor shouldn't affect your physical movement at all. If he armor in this case is still considering to hinder you when you are using your wit to predict the events and thus staying out of harm the only reasonable way to look at it is that the armor is making you dumber, which of course doesn't make sense.


I can however see that you are denied your Int bonus when you are denied your Dex bonus. When you are denied your Dex bonus you are often not aware of what's happening, are immobilized or have been outsmarted (like feints) and in those scenarios it's pretty clear that you aren't able to predict what's happening since you haven't gotten up to speed.


It only really can be broken with two groups, armored melee fighters and smart character who're going tobe able to grab a huge bonus to their Reflex Defenses easily.  For the latter group, enforcing a Max Int bonus won't help.  For the former group, they could stand to have a bit of help.  Honestly, you could make melee Weapon Focuses a +3, or even +5, bonus and I'd still probably think those guys are too weak.


I could see some finding it a big deal that the Feat is pretty much letting melee fighters completely ignore one ability (Dex, apart from a few skills that are based on it of course) and instead focus on one that will both give them better defense capabilities, more points to spend on the abilities that matter (if you don't roll them) and more skills. I don't know if I personally think it alters that much though.

  I switched up a few things in my post before I submitted it but unfortunately made an error doing os so it isn't as clear as it should be. I'm not entirely sure if you got my point and agree with me or if you misunderstood me and thought I spoke for the max dex being applicable (which I didn't).


I was agreeing with you.  The Max Dex idea is kind of silly when you consider that theFeat already eliminates your own agility and speed's contribution to your R-Def.


 I can however see that you are denied your Int bonus when you are denied your Dex bonus. When you are denied your Dex bonus you are often not aware of what's happening, are immobilized or have been outsmarted (like feints) and in those scenarios it's pretty clear that you aren't able to predict what's happening since you haven't gotten up to speed.


That would make sense, but the rules really don't indicate that you'd loose your INT bonus as per my above reasons.


I could see some finding it a big deal that the Feat is pretty much letting melee fighters completely ignore one ability (Dex, apart from a few skills that are based on it of course) and instead focus on one that will both give them better defense capabilities, more points to spend on the abilities that matter (if you don't roll them) and more skills. I don't know if I personally think it alters that much though.


Melee fighters already tend to ignore INT, so this is more of a switch-over.  Instead of boostibng Dexterity they have to do Intelligence.  Of course, Dexterity is still very valuable not only for those occasional ranged attacks, but for qualifying for various Feats.  Lot's of the best melee Feats require a pretty decent Dexterity score. 

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these