A time to Refocus

 


A Time to Refocus


I have been thinking about the state of Star Wars miniatures for the last few days.  I was watching the season premiere of the Clone Wars with my kids and it hit me.  Are we really enjoying the game we love so much or has Star Wars miniatures become a victim of its own success?


It seems now more than ever people are feeling the game is stagnant.  Some seem to feel the game is stale and has changed drastically.  A lot of folks don't like the direction of the game at times.  I understand all of these feelings and I have some of the same complaints myself at times.  My question I have posed myself is why am I not generally happy with what is going on?  I remember for a while now we as a community have been afraid the death of the game is around the corner.  We pray it will keep going and yet we rip apart every new set and become the harshest critics on the earth.   At times I have wondered would we be better off if the game died?  It reminds of people that everyone talks bad about. Folks just rip certain people apart because they don't like them.  Then a tragic accident happens to that person and everyone makes that person into a saint.  Would Star Wars become the saint if the game died?


Why are so many folks unhappy?  We still have the game and at least 2 new sets with a third one currently being worked on.  So why the long faces?  Is it the time of year?  I know the fall after Gencon is always a tough time for Star Wars miniatures.  It seems though that it becomes worse every year.  The offensive power creep that has occurred in the last couple of years and sets has been troubling for a lot of folks.  For others it has turned them completely off the game.  I have been just as guilty as other of this mind set.  How do we overcome it?


I think it is time for us as a community to sit back and reflect.  What is it we love about this game?  I personally have to decided to make an effort to remember the early fun that I had playing this game.  I feel like I have a good grasp on this game but I need to remember the fun of it.  I think we all do.  We need to play more of our favorite characters.  We need to play more fun games.  Utilize vassal if you don't have a local game.  I have decided to try and embrace the GVL.  I am going to try to get past the tons of rules (yes there are quite a few) and embrace the non-meta aspect of it.  I am going to enjoy my RPG more.  If you don't have a group and you play miniatures with four or more people start one.  If you cannot afford the books contact some folks.  Some people have these books in a digital format.  That means if you are reading this article then you can get a copy.  Enjoy the Star Wars side of the game.  If you need help setting up a RPG contact me or someone at Gamers we will help you.  I have decided that now while things are the slowest, now is the time to enjoy this game the most.


 


I realize a lot of folks are feeling a bit down.  There has been a huge absence of people from the Wizards forums since the change.  It is time as a community we focus.  We must sometimes remember what drew us to this game in the first place and celebrate it.  I think I am lucky in the fact that our internet radio show Sith Holonews Network  gives me a chance to talk to folks and talk about what we love about the game.  It is time for our community to come together.  Drop some of the petty differences and move back to the point we are enjoying our mutual love that brought us together.  Lets refocus on how much fun Star Wars is.


I was a kid when Star Wars came to the theater.  It was 1977.  I remember how excited I was to see Star Wars arrive at our theater.  We had just gotten home from a vacation in California.  We had gone to Disneyland.  One day while there we had gone to the Chinese Theater.  Guess what was opening that day?  Star Wars.  I remember getting home and it coming out.  After the movie my life was changed.   I had just had my first shot of imagination heroin and it was good.  Nothing since movie wise has come close.  Honestly the closest movie to being just awesome fun was the original Starship Troopers in 1997.  That was a great movie.  It failed on the follow up for sure.  I can still remember going to Gibsons and getting my first Star Wars figure.  It was Luke with the yellow light saber in his arm.  Man that was exciting.  I have seen the same excitement in my 10 year olds face when he got his AT-TE and his Falcon (the redesigned one).  We need to find that again as a community.  I am not calling anyone person out.  I am calling myself and this community out.  Refocus people.  This is a great time and a great game.  Let's try to remember how lucky we are.  I would rather have this game to gripe about or say the shooters are more powerful than go back to nothing.  Years from now we are going to remember playing this game and buying it.  We are going to miss those days.  Funny sometimes we can't enjoy them while they are going on.

team revan Collection: 801/801 SWM DCI Content Manager sith holonews network

Amen, my friend.  Amen.


This article is spirit in words.


I'm here because I love the characters and being introduced to new ones and the fact that I can throw toigether whoever I want and make them go at it Star Wars style!


Back to the characters, I've told this story before, but...


How many times have you pulled a character in a booster that you've never heard of?


I pulled Talon Karrde in a BH.  Didn't have a clue who he was.  But having and playing him drove me to do some research.  Next thing I know, I'm reading the Thrawn Trilogy!  Some of the best Star Wars books made, in my opinion. 


Truth be told, never heard of Kyle Katarn either.  Do some research.  Now here I am playing the Dark Forces games for the first time and absolutely loving it!


In short, this game plays a biogger role that just itself.  It introduces new things about the Star Wars universe that we all love outside of the game.  New and exciting to some, or old but sacred to others, but Star Wars the same.


It's a great game.

AMS-51 "Dendrite" Connection lost...searching...

I am kinda in the same boat.  We haven't been playing much the last couple of months and I haven't played since the Regional in Springfield.  Tommorrow we are doing the clone Wars scenerio from Gencon.  I have been playing around with scenerio's for me and maybe someone else to play if they want that is basically Republic vs Seperatist in 15 battles lol.  I got enough Republic but wish I had more Seps.

Very briefly:


1.  I myself am a collector & mini-lover first, and a gamer FAR second. Therefore, I want more variety and I feel that the seemingly unending, single-minded focus on the Clone Wars cartoon pretty much equates to selling out. I KNOW it's the current flavor, and Lucas is in it to make money. Gotcha. But for those who truly love Star Wars and have been with it since the beginning (such as the OP dnemiller), there must be others who'd like to see more Critters, more KotOR, more Huges (even a Gargantuan or three), more Naboo, More comics, and so on.


And to be fair, it isn't just SWM. TRY to find some fun new toy in the stores that isn't Clone Wars. It's like all the imagination is just gone, crushed beneath the weight of Profit.


2.  I... sorta feel like WotC isn't really taking this community or product line very seriously. Sorta the proverbial red-headed stepchildren of the company.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." Scale video that I made with darthvaughn: " SW Minis Scale video Starship Modeler website. Jeff Russel's incredible STARSHIP DIMENSIONS website, with our favourite vehicles, vessels & critters from multiple sources, shown to scale. SQUADRON MODEL's Sci-Fi model kits section. How to make a model conversion to an Old Republic frigate.

Very well put Dean I couldn't agree with you more.  There will always be problems with the game, as there is with everything...even the golden original movies.  I mean, how many people heard the line "This is the ship that made the Kessel run in less than three parsecs" and not scratch their head trying to figure out why they were using a measurement of distance in a phrase that was clearly intended to show speed over time.  Or wonder why the when Han and Luke came down out of the Falcon in the re-appropriate storm trooper armor after clearly shooting the troopers to take them out were there no burn marks on the armor?


But we didn't let little thinks like this ruin our enjoyment of the movie.  To this day we still are able to look past the fact that when they released Han from the carbonite he had a different pair of pants on then when he was frozen.  And even though so many people can't stand Jar Jar we accept him into the Star Wars community as if he's that distant uncle with the mental issues everyone seems to have.  There will always be problems but we must choose to look at the whole package in it's entirety and decide that it is still a good product, rather than let a few inconsistencies like the fact that an Ewok with a bow and arrow can shoot the same range as a sniper rifle.  We can't get caught up on these little things and miss the larger picture that we have a great game that is still alive.


As much as we harp on WOTC for their apparent lack of support of the game, they're still putting out product for it.  They're still sponsoring tournaments for it.  They're still providing a forum for discussion of it.  So they are still supporting it, maybe not as much as we'd like but they certainly haven't abandoned it.  So we as the community need to step up and make it the type of experience that we want.  And so many people are already doing this like Dean, Jack, Chuck, Bill and everyone else who go above and beyond the norm to provide a better experience.


No one is ever going to agree with everyone 100% of the time.  We are all different people from different walks of life and different geographic regions with different oppinions of how things should be done.  We should celebrate that diversity not use it as a divisive agent to put up walls between us.  It is through our various situational differences that we are able to help make the product and the gaming experience better.  WOTC has shown they are willing to listen to the community as far as product development.  DCI not only listens they depend on the community for input.  So let's excercise some of this tremendous power that we as consumers and fans of the game have been invested with and trusted with and give back to the community in any way that we can.


2.  I... sorta feel like WotC isn't really taking this community or product line very seriously. Sorta the proverbial red-headed stepchildren of the company.




That isn't going to change any time soon and it wouldn't matter what company makes the current version of the game. SW = $$$, so LA is going to make sure that some "Major" company holds the franchise.  All of the "Major" company's are going to have there own IP's that are going to take Priority because of there greater Profits.


The last company that gave us the level of support that we are looking for was WEG D6 and they could only do it because at the time SW was basicaly a dead franchise.

WWTD?
What Would Thor Do?

It used to be that squad-buidling was FUN. Trying to mix and match characters and CE's that hadn't been tried before (hence RBSV and Viper) to make a squad that was semi-competitive. In my opinion, the game went downhill fast once Greater Mobile became a CE, and Evade/Mobile was for Allies. Now, if you make a competitive squad that doesn't include one or the other or both, you lose. Thus the competitive game got stuck into that paradigm. That stagnated the game big time. Add to that Dodonna, and now you have a boring game for both players. No thanks.


Add to that a few other ingredients, such as our general apathy about Clone Wars II, the "win-at-all-costs" jerk attitudes of some of the community, and the attitudes of wotc towards swm, and this game we all love becomes another box filled with SW stuff in the garage/basement.


In Des Moines, we used to play somewhat competitively. Our group is such a good group that we all came to the conclusion that meta squads just are not fun. We have made the conscious choice to NOT play meta squads just so that we can have fun again. Now we are back to making goofy squads, and we honestly don't even care about winning or losing anymore. It just doesn't matter to us.


 


 

Here is a link to the Orphans list I maintain: http://www.desmoinesfanforce.net/Orphans.htm Life-sized Tile Wars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAXn5ZwopPc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o64M5_J1JHs Geoncon08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srArBLLHYBQ


...I feel that the seemingly unending, single-minded focus on the Clone Wars cartoon pretty much equates to selling out. ..




Quick note on this: One set in every three (CW, IE, JA and now GaW, Dark Times, and Masters of the Force) is not, in my opinion, selling out by focusing too much on the Clone Wars.  Just my take on things.


 


I collected from Rebel Storm until Champions, when I played my first tourny.  I liked the figures because it was Star Wars.  I now like the game for the competition and the great people I get to play against (and it's still Star Wars).  Regardless of how you feel about the cartoon, if the Clone Wars can bring a new generation of Star Wars fans to the fandom table, I'm all for it.  And if those Star Wars fans come to like the SWM Game, all the better.


With all due respect to Rob, I think the game design has become a bit...repetative.  Rob did an outstanding job laying the foundation for the game and making it the superb and great selling game that it is, but I'm very glad that we're getting some new blood in the creative pool.  I was leary at first, but since I heard some of Peter's creditials I'm very excited to see what Dark Times and Masters of the Force bring to the game. 


We, the players, do criticize new sets, and I think we, as consumers, have the right to do so (especially since so many people criticize, and then go out and buy two cases....not that I know anything at all about that...).  But my suggestion: if you think the game is stale, let's wait and see how we feel after the next Gencon.  There's a chance that it will continue to be the same, but I'm hoping that Peter brings some new angles and ideas to an already solid core game.  Yes, it puts a lot on Peter's shoulders (no pressure ) but I think he'll be up to the challenge and I can't wait to see what happens in the game this next year.

Thank you, Hothie (where's that Fawning emoticon? Not available here yet, perhaps). What little I've played, this is my attitude. To me the Game is about the Journey, not the Destination.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." Scale video that I made with darthvaughn: " SW Minis Scale video Starship Modeler website. Jeff Russel's incredible STARSHIP DIMENSIONS website, with our favourite vehicles, vessels & critters from multiple sources, shown to scale. SQUADRON MODEL's Sci-Fi model kits section. How to make a model conversion to an Old Republic frigate.

Although I don't post very often, I like to stop by and read what people have to say about the game.  And as has been mentioned, it does seem there is less posting about the game, and more about what people are unhappy about.


Our weekly gaming group of 6-8 guys really enjoy the game, and I have not seen any drop in the enthusiasm of the group.  I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we are a very casual group.  We don't worry about making sure we have the latest "meta" team ready to go, we play what we find fun.  We do have one player that I know can hold his own if he played DCI on a regular basis, and he did pretty good this past Gen Con, his first experience.  I give him credit for not going crazy in our less competitive environment.  But I think it's also about building up relationships with your fellow gamers, and enjoying the time that you get to spend hanging out and having fun.


Like Dean, I watched the new Clone Wars with my 12-year old son, and we got a good laugh watching several of the characters that will be in the new set.  We got the biggest laugh when he said, "Look, it's the trooper with the gatlin gun."  I promptly replied with a "yeah, he's getting his four attacks in, and get's to move thanks to Rex's greater mobile."  We just enjoy the game, and try to have a good laugh at the cartoon's expense.


Remember, it is still just a game.  Try not to take it so serious, and step back and just enjoy playing it for what it is that you love about Star Wars.

As a sort of sideline comment, ToscheStation's last comment on ANY subject was two days ago. Every time I visit, I'm the only one there. And that's a fun site. Where's the Love?

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." Scale video that I made with darthvaughn: " SW Minis Scale video Starship Modeler website. Jeff Russel's incredible STARSHIP DIMENSIONS website, with our favourite vehicles, vessels & critters from multiple sources, shown to scale. SQUADRON MODEL's Sci-Fi model kits section. How to make a model conversion to an Old Republic frigate.


Where's the Love?




Forcibly buried by the new forum organization system.

IMAGE(http://www.lusogamer.com/live/green/gamercard_gamerbar/EmporerDragon.png)

Nice post.


Sometimes I think people get too tied up in the DCI tourney aspect of the game and forget how much fun it is to put together something a bit random, or theme, or focussed around a particular underused (or just plain bad) character and just try to do the best you can with that rather than throwing uber-minmaxed squads at each other repeatedly. There's a time and place for that, but the game offers so much more.


I'm lucky to attend a LGS where this kind of thing is the norm. Just this week I decided on Marauder night. So I had Darth Caedus and Sith Marauders facing down General Secura and Clone Snipers. That was followed by Mandalore and Mando Marauders facing a foursome of Old Republic jedi. Both games were a blast. Elsewhere I saw a Felucian Rancor getting mobbed, and Vader Champion of the Sith urging on a horde of Reborn to victory in his inimitable style.


I think these kinds of games are the reason most of us got hooked on Star Wars minis, but it too often get overshadowed by that desire to win/compete at the highest possible level.

Nice post Dean


Well I started my part to get the game to be more about the fun.  Master and apprentice has been posted in both Gamers and wotc on the general threads.


400 views between the sites and couple repsonses so far.  On Vassal the younger guys really like it and it is quite fun.  For whatever reason they keep wanting to play on arena maps.Smile


I have a couple more games to throw out that are fun and will add them one each week until I run out of them or ideas.


Any feedback on how, everyone who played the format, likes it let me know in those threads.


Sincerely,


Gurneywars

Every move in this game is a mistake, the hope is that your opponent makes a bigger mistake when he makes his move.


Very briefly:


1.  I myself am a collector & mini-lover first, and a gamer FAR second. Therefore, I want more variety and I feel that the seemingly unending, single-minded focus on the Clone Wars cartoon pretty much equates to selling out. I KNOW it's the current flavor, and Lucas is in it to make money. Gotcha. But for those who truly love Star Wars and have been with it since the beginning (such as the OP dnemiller), there must be others who'd like to see more Critters, more KotOR, more Huges (even a Gargantuan or three), more Naboo, More comics, and so on.


And to be fair, it isn't just SWM. TRY to find some fun new toy in the stores that isn't Clone Wars. It's like all the imagination is just gone, crushed beneath the weight of Profit.


2.  I... sorta feel like WotC isn't really taking this community or product line very seriously. Sorta the proverbial red-headed stepchildren of the company.




 


Got to agree here.
I'm a Starwars fan, and I want Starwars not Clone wars

A good workman doesn’t blame his tools. Overall winner of the "Alien Scum" custom contest! Good Trades : Boss Nass;Sith_Slayer;lukey84;Biggsy;Kael_Dro nna;Reysan_Aura;Purple_Wind;The_Fringer Bad Trades 0

Personally I am still loving Star Wars Minis.


I can see the arguments.  Some people don't like the Clone Wars era (I do) but it is obviously going to be the main focus at the moment.  Watch the marketing focus change when the Live Action series hits our screens, but there will be those that won't like that.  There are the gamers who want a balanced game across all Factions and are annoyed that Sith & Old Republic don't get as much love.  There are those that love the EU, some love the OT.  I understand that it is impossible for WOTC to please everyone.


I may have rose tinted glasses but I love Star Wars.
When Force Unleashed came out my first reaction was "Ugh, what rubbish is LFL churning out now."  But I then sat back and thought, "Wait a minute, this is STAR WARS.  I love Star Wars."  So I embraced all the new material.  I bought the game, novel, comic and minis.  Death Troopers is due out soon with some fans already dismissing that.  But it's STAR WARS.  And I've already made my mind up I'm going to like it.  I look forward to the Death Troopers novel and Star Wars Galaxies update, and I hope we get some Zombie Stormtroopers in a future minis set.  Why?  Didn't I mention, I love Star Wars.


So the game may seem to be just be plodding along at a steady pace right now but I can assure you, and WOTC, that I am still playing (and collecting, and using minis for my RPGs) and still enjoying every minute of it 


May the Force be with you...  Laughing

I'm still digging it.  My kids like picking their favorite Jedi or bounty hunter, and I assist them at building a squad around that mini, then I build an opponent squad that's roughly balanced.  The nice thing about power creep is that it's easy to handicap a squad by just including a suboptimum older mini.  So what if the top level game has gotten stale.  It might be a few years before I make it to Gen Con again but I'm sure when I do, there will be some form of SWM going on, and it will still be fun.  The recent flurry of high-quality unofficial maps gives me hope that the game will survive beyond WotC's interest in it.


I hope we get some new ideas on game design, I'm getting sick of seeing the same few CE's recycled over and over, but that's my main beef, and there are a few creative ideas in this latest set to be sure.


I remember, back in the Rebel Storm days, just loving how SWM reflected the characters from the movies.  Darth Vader, Dark Jedi choking his hapless minions.  Farmboy Luke snapping off impulsive shots (and usually missing) when his friends got hurt.  Chewbacca knocking heads together if he ever got two enemies within arms' reach.  Competitive or not, that's what I love about this game.

I would just like to say I read the boards at least twice a day to see what is new and going on and Deans post was a wonderful one. I think people need to return to their first love about the game and just have more fun. I have a feeling the more positive the community is about Wizard's product the more they will listen to us and start to take a bigger interest.


Now for my story: I only have my younger brother to play with and we started when bounty hunters came out. Now I am at college and he is still at home but when I do come home we try to find some time to still have a match and have fun. Every so often we try new pieces and see how they work and if they are fun or not but more times than not we play a theme and just have fun and laugh when something ridiculous happens like an ug defeating Reavan and also sometimes getting frustrated when one of us can never hit Republic commandos. We know half of the squads we field wouldn't do well on a competitive scale but we just play to have fun and like playing on new maps (which we very much enjoy all of the custom ones a lot so thank you!). We also play custom figures just to be able to play with a piece that we made and just to see if it was good or not. We play to play and we have a blast.


 


I also am starting to collect them more than I did in the past and I love the new sets no matter what they are its just fun to get new pieces and look at them all. I do not have a problem with the clone wars themed sets their have only been two so far and different sets in between and they have all had fun pieces.


 


I have no beef with the current way things are going as long as they keep making new pieces for me and my brother =]


 


 

In general, I believe now as much as ever, we the community are responsible for it.  Obviously, we can't control how long WotC makes the game, and to much degree, what the figures look like stat wise that are in those sets.  But we can control our reactions to it, and our general enjoyment of the game.  Enjoyment isn't a result of someone else doing something you like, it's a state of mind that happens when your expectations, experiences and idea of fun all line up with one another.  It has very little to do with what WotC does.


That doesn't mean I am anti-complaint.  It's just that I think we have been too much complaining lately (last couple of years perhaps), and it's up to us to start making this community great once again.


It's the reason we started playing the RPG online a while back (and we are always looking for new players, just head over to Gamers and sign up in the RPG forum - MtMagus' game).  It's the reason Dean, Chuck and I put together the radio show.  I assume it's the same reason we see Chargers' Podcast, and Shinja made bloomilk, and so on and so forth.


I saw just last night how much Star Wars means when I was discussing with a Parent, an 11 year old who didn't want to miss the CWs premier, but also wanted to go to youth group.  He made a deal to "not be tired and do all his chores on Sat" if mom let him stay up to watch the 10PM showing so he could go to youth group.  When I got home and watched it, instead of watching it with my 30 year old eyes, I watched it with the eyes of an 11 year old and it was awesome!  I even really liked Ashoka this time.


Sometimes in our lives, it's good to go back and remind ourselves what we love about something.  I think now is that time for SWMs, being a sort of down, negative time for the community, and with little to talk about post-Gencon.  This community is what we make it, and I know we can continue to make it great.  On my part, I promise to be more positive, and to keep the radio show going.  I also intend to keep writing articles for the "playing to win" series when I am able (starting a new degree has made that tougher at the current moment).  I also offer that I will try to be even more helpful for squads, and intentionally get back to posting some squads on the forums, not because I need/want critique (which I still welcome), but simply to encourage others to do so, and to encourage the discussions that make this community great.  I also promise to try to be "nicer" as some of you explain it, and to continue to do what I can to get information out to the communtiy in any venue I can.


Thanks for a great couple of years guys, let's not let it die out now.

Love your post Dean.  My boys and I watch a movie together at home every friday night.  We dim the lights make popcorn and bond.  The tradition started last year with the premier of Star Wars the Clone Wars.  For my boys last years premier was just as exciting as it was for me back in 1977 in the back of my parents baby blue station wagon at the drive in.  For some of us cough.... cough... older Star Wars fans I think it is hard for us to let go of what we think Star Wars is and let a new generation experience it as we did.  Look at Transformers, GI Joe these are movies that you would think would be kids movies but both are rated PG 13.  There was a poster in this thread complained that all they could find is Clone Wars toys.  Was it any different when we were kids.  When "Return of the Jedi" came out weren't there Ewoks everywhere. 


As far as SWM is concerned I don't play competively so the meta issues aren't really dissapointing me in the way it is others.  That having been said there are some issues that clearly need resolving.  My kids are getting old enough to start playing, so for me I have had more fun with the game than ever.  We play to win but we don't play optimized squads.  If/when the game ever draws to an end I will still play it and continue to use the minis for other things like RPG and Mass Battles. 

I think what's needed right now is a "refocus" on behalf of WotC. I've been disappointed by a lot of the decisions they've made in the last couple of years, at multiple levels, and more and more it seems like the people who want to interact with the customers are being forced out or worse, are choosing to leave. And what we get instead are people who so far are distant at worse or falsely accomodating at best.


So when you say refocus is needed, I agree, but I think it's the company that needs refocus moreso than the player base. There's only so much we can do with the product they provide, and if they are going to continue to design their products (and I'm not just talking about SWM here) in a way that discourages and disregards customers from supporting their LGS', well that's not our problem...


In Des Moines, we used to play somewhat competitively. Our group is such a good group that we all came to the conclusion that meta squads just are not fun. We have made the conscious choice to NOT play meta squads just so that we can have fun again. Now we are back to making goofy squads, and we honestly don't even care about winning or losing anymore. It just doesn't matter to us.




That is how I feel about the NE group.  We obviously all still play "competitive" squads, but none of us are so hung up on tweaking the win that we bring the tippy toppest Tier to any tournament.  Its always different.  


Talking to Dennis recently, I learned that many venues just have people who want to play Top Tier everytime and tweak squads to perfect them.  There is nothing wrong with this, if you don't become bored.  But, it would appear that a lot of people ARE becoming bored.  Is this the fault of the game?  I don't think so.  I think that people need to CHOOSE to play the types of games that they find fun.  The game isn't FORCING you to choose to play cutthroat competitive the whole time.  I'm reminded of the movie Wargames:


Stephen Falken: [Falken speaks as he approaches] General, are you prepared to destroy the enemy? 
General Beringer: You betcha! 
Stephen Falken: Do you think they know that? 
General Beringer: I believe we've made that clear enough. 
Stephen Falken: [face to face] Then don't! Tell the President to ride out the attack.


I'm not trying to be glib here.  I'm just pointing out that venues don't HAVE to play competitive if it isn't fun.  All you have to do is CHOOSE to not play that way.  Gamers act like once you get good at a game that you can't NOT play competitively. *rolleyes*


Now, I'll be the first to admit that my posts on these boards are colored by my experience.  Recently I've been reactionary to people posting that the game is "dying" and that it is "no longer any fun".  I haven't been opposed to those statements because I don't think its true.  I've been opposed because I don't think IT HAS TO BE.  Because that is not what we experience at our venue.  The Hothies will be here in a few hours to run a mass battle and I'm running Dynamic Duo in two weeks.  After that, I want us to do an Ironman competition.  That isn't because Iw ant us to pay top tier competitive.  Its because Ironman CHANGES the meta by restricting how you build squads.  In short, its DIFFERENT.


So, kudos to Dean for posting a request for honesty.  I am of the opinion that Dean is right, we should be doing things that make the game FUN, and if the current state of the competitive DCI meta can't do that, then you either CHOOSE to not play certain combos at your venue, or you play Casual games.

Love this forum Dean. 


I joined this game the day A&E came out. I was excited to come in there and buy some boosters. My friend has recommended the game and his friend plays at my LGS. I loved the game. I had made some dough, and I bought a variety of boosters and a starter set from Clone Strike. Remember, this was when A&E just came out. This game was fascinating. So many different combinations and strategies were possible!


It's now been a little over 2 years since I've joined. I've seen players come and go from my LGS, seen new ones join, and seen the various sets come out. The game has been declining. Let me tell you why:


When I went to my first tourney (oh the joy!), there was about 12 people there. That is a full room for us in the back. 3 tables, 2 able to fit 3 maps each and 1 table to put some stuff on. It was completely full. Friday night was a lot of fun, even though I went 1-2. Hey- I was new! Nowadays, we may have 6 people come to a Friday night game. Sunday's are sometimes better, sometimes worse. I'm now try to make every Sunday game. 


Also, refocusing is a big part. These forums have been hugely affected. Squad Critique will probably be commented once or twice every two days. Customs are half-active, rules aren't as popular, and the only thing that is popular is General, and it's mostly about the difference in the members, no offense, and other sets. Nothing big.


I joined these forums in February of 2009. I had been playing for about a year and a half.


You asked what do I love about this game? Well, I love the game because I used to have a lot of fun playing different squads and sometimes winning. Now, at my LGS, it has to be Tier 1 or you're screwed over. You'll lose most of your games. You will always see at least 1 OR squad and usually 1 Republic and 1 Sep squad. What do I love about this game? I love to meet new people through playing games and get tips from them about designing squads. There is an occasional player that isn't the nicest, but only occasional. 


What do I love about this game? It takes my mind off the other things during the day and I just spend 30 mins a day just relaxing and brainstorming new squads. I love this game plain out.


I've never been to GenCon, though I do know that our LGS is still really active after GenCon. I don't know why, but we still seem happy. I do think this has been the worst fall after GenCon yet, after 2 years I've seen a lot.


My Dad and Mom grew up with Star Wars. They completely enjoyed it. I've now grown to the game and the movies, partly because I'm a sci-fi fanboy.


This game is a great game to play. I used to play Magic and other games. When I found this, I fell in love with it, and I'm gonna stick with it. I love the game. You players should to!

Dark Lord of Epic Subtlety GTL +1- Gwek If you're in need of a player doing custom STATS (not figs...sorry) for ranges of custom sets to single figs, contact me! I'm open all the time and will work as hard as I can. Thanks!


In Des Moines, we used to play somewhat competitively. Our group is such a good group that we all came to the conclusion that meta squads just are not fun. We have made the conscious choice to NOT play meta squads just so that we can have fun again. Now we are back to making goofy squads, and we honestly don't even care about winning or losing anymore. It just doesn't matter to us.




Here in Colorado Springs, it is truly competitive now. I think after KotOR came out, we really got competitivley. I used to play there for fun. Now, I have to design Top squads, or I go 1-2 or 0-3...

Dark Lord of Epic Subtlety GTL +1- Gwek If you're in need of a player doing custom STATS (not figs...sorry) for ranges of custom sets to single figs, contact me! I'm open all the time and will work as hard as I can. Thanks!


Here in Colorado Springs, it is truly competitive now. I think after KotOR came out, we really got competitivley. I used to play there for fun. Now, I have to design Top squads, or I go 1-2 or 0-3...




Here in Omaha, when we became competitive, another group of players broke off and plays Casual all the time at another LGS.  They weren't bitter and we weren't bitter.  They just wanted something different.  Now, that wasn't the only reason.  Some people just preferred to play organized events on Friday night instead of Saturday or Sunday.


That said, here are two things that people who don't like playing competitevely can do, WITHOUT going to a different LGS.


1) Start running your own events.  I know that takes time and effort, but sometimes you have to do incovenient things to get what you want out of something.  If you really like the game, why not?


2) Run events at different times.  This will decrease the number of people that show up at each event, but so long as the competitive people keep four people, they still get tournaments.  Even if you have only a few people, you still get to play the types of games that you want.  You tell the competitive players ahead of time that you want to change and that you will be doing this.  Are the competitive people upset that they have smaller tournaments all of a sudden?  You explain to them that you can't stand playing competitively anymore, and that you wouldn't NEED to have new events if they played a different style of game that wasn't so stale.  If they aren't understanding of your desires, then frankly you probably don't want to be playing games with them anyway.


People, you have the power to effect change at your venues.  You just have to have the drive to do so.  Nobody is saying its easy.  But if you don't act to improve your situation, then you really don't have any right to complain.  This is an old gamer story.  We're happy about the situation so long as its convenient and we don't have to do anything about it.  That isn't directed directly at DarthSith, just something for everybody to keep in mind.  Gamers have a tendency to not be very self-aware of what they want and what they don't want and are REAL quick to blame somebody else when things don't go their way.

I only play casually, mostly with my brother at home, and rarely (every few months) with a friend. Thus, we can play as casually as we want, and it's really fun - I still own tons of figures that I have not played, and I tried my first mercenary squad the other day. It's a blast and there are infinite possibilities because we don't follow the meta, we just go with what's fun. regardless, I still like to be aware of the meta and the top pieces. However, I only collect pieces I'm interested in, so people like Reek-an I skip entirely, because his character is dull. So in a competitive scene, I' be up a creek without a paddle in some situations (although my NR, Imps and Sith are all strong), but since I'm a casual gamer, the game has not stagnated whatsoever.

Dean,


Han Solo was my first figure and he flew the Falcon all over the place. That big hunk of plastic went everywhere with me. I was also that kid at age 5 in 77' that had no idea the route my imagination was going to go down. Vader walked the line that was wrapped around Northpark theater in 90 degree heat and I was terrified of him. A new hope captured my imagination but EMPIRE was the nuts! I thought the films were only going to get better from there until the crushing blow that ROTJ dealt to my psyche. That crap film made me totally reevauate why I like the saga.


I appreciate your leadership and work towards helping me look introspectively at why I play this game. I like the idea that this game takes me to where I used to be as a kid. I enjoy playing with people that find the same characters interesting. I like to play because it is the one place where I can make decisions that do not affect my career or family. I am not as addicted to the game as I was the first few years, however I still have the excitement of squad building, playing and release tournaments.


I do not buy cases anymore, so I must put time aside to go play at the LGS to possibly win or trade for pieces. This is still a great game and I look forward to playing locally and nationally, especially when there are guys like you, bill and jim involved. There are several people that I look forward to playing against like Deri and James plus Team Texas foremost. I am aware that I do not bring as much to the game as many of you and I just appreciate your efforts.


Thanks,


DB


Dean,


Han Solo was my first figure and he flew the Falcon all over the place. That big hunk of plastic went everywhere with me. I was also that kid at age 5 in 77' that had no idea the route my imagination was going to go down. Vader walked the line that was wrapped around Northpark theater in 90 degree heat and I was terrified of him. A new hope captured my imagination but EMPIRE was the nuts! I thought the films were only going to get better from there until the crushing blow that ROTJ dealt to my psyche. That crap film made me totally reevauate why I like the saga.


I appreciate your leadership and work towards helping me look introspectively at why I play this game. I like the idea that this game takes me to where I used to be as a kid. I enjoy playing with people that find the same characters interesting. I like to play because it is the one place where I can make decisions that do not affect my career or family. I am not as addicted to the game as I was the first few years, however I still have the excitement of squad building, playing and release tournaments.


I do not buy cases anymore, so I must put time aside to go play at the LGS to possibly win or trade for pieces. This is still a great game and I look forward to playing locally and nationally, especially when there are guys like you, bill and jim involved. There are several people that I look forward to playing against like Deri and James plus Team Texas foremost. I am aware that I do not bring as much to the game as many of you and I just appreciate your efforts.


Thanks,


DB




Oh Frank, I totally hear you on this.  I saw A New Hope in '77 at Sikes Center Mall in Wichita Falls, Tx.  By the time Empire came out we had moved to the Metroplex and I saw it at Northeast Mall in Hurst.  Star Wars made the best Christmas presents too.  Yes seeing this love passed to my kids and watching them is a great joy.


That was the purpose of this thread and article/post.  I wanted people to remember how much fun it was .  The Clone Wars series is a huge event in my home.  We go to Nate's football game and then we watch the Tivo of Clone Wars.  IT is a family event.


@Dennis I get what you are saying.  Unfortunately we have never had control over Wizards but what we do have is control over our half of the deal.  So I am asking this community to remember what they love about this game and enjoy it.  Just that simple.

team revan Collection: 801/801 SWM DCI Content Manager sith holonews network

@Dennis I get what you are saying.  Unfortunately we have never had control over Wizards but what we do have is control over our half of the deal.  So I am asking this community to remember what they love about this game and enjoy it.  Just that simple.



Sadly, it's not. One cannot make other people NOT play power-squads even in an environment that is set up to cater to the idea of "non-cutthroat," as I discovered recently.


It's a difficult issue, especially in a setting where no one wants to discourage others in the group from playing the way they want to play the game. For example, I have ZERO interest in forcing the people I play with locally to leave their Snowspeeders and Rexes and Dashes in the storage box for the weekend game session. It's not my place to do that. However, I have no intention of driving 45 minutes one way to lose because my style of squad preference is "sub-par." But I'm bored with the competitive style of play and I in no way fault them for their playstyle of choice. I wouldn't want them to be bored playing the game I want to play it, either. So what that means is that I am the one with the issue, and I respect that. I'm the one who has to make the choice whether to keep playing.

Down here,,when i introduced the game I just said make a squad that you will find fun and entertaining. I just stated that GOWK was banned due to issues with the stats. Its never been a competitive environment here,and I try to make sure that it stays that way by not talking about what the most powerful piece is that I own,by not talking about powerful combos or what was played at Gencon. We didn't even get competitive when we had the tournament down here last month,the two finalist instead of playing agreed to pick the booster they each wanted, (one was KotOR and the other was LotF) and that's how the tournament ended.


They players down here when picking pieces go "hey its so and so from the cartoon i want to use him" and they don't care about the stats one bit. 


 I guess in my case its how i started the game down here by being as non competitive as i can make it.

ThorvaldHafgrimsson wrote:
Life is full of choices. Sometimes you make the good ones, and sometimes you have to kill all the witnesses.
NastasiaLorn; wrote:
But then you have to pay the liability insurance.
A note about character and world creation
Show
Character and world creation are a form of expression. The point is that some people don't have much to say...
57949688 wrote:
Why doesnt anyone ever sig my qoutes!?
On the subject of who post in the Off-Topic Tavern:
57131438 wrote:
most of them are bored, immature adults.
Offical troller of the House of Trolls

I can't add much more to this thread than what has already been stated, but this is the coolest thing you have posted in a long time Dean.  Very nice post!


I'm glad you are getting back to your roots with SWM.  There is nothing more fun than sitting around playing Star Wars with the kids, even though they are all grown up now.  I guess you and I can start looking forward to playing with the grand kids real soon.


I too like DCI play, but over the last 2 or 3 years I felt like I got away from the thing that originally drew me into the game to begin with.  I'm glad that somebody like Bob (Squid89) came along to bring everything back into focus for me.


Smile

Photobucket

I don't get to play much casually or in DCI, but I've found a niche to play the game at the school where I am the nurse.  We have after school enrichment classes that kids can sign up for 4 times a year.  I started hosting a SWM class last spring and it has been gaining momentum since with 12 signed up this fall.


 


So, basically, I get paid to introduce kids to SWM.  I have been buying a case of minis, making squads for the kids and then we just show up each week and play.  I get reimbursed for the minis and at the end of the class we roll off for prizes.  Each week I give them a new mini to add to their squad.  The first week we played all 7 from a booster.  Last week, we played 100 pt teams.  It's always kill them all, so game play is kept to the basics. 


 


At the conclusion of this fall session, I am going to host a release tourney for kids at our LGS on 10/30.  We'll have discounts and prizes for all the kids that come out.


 


-b


Here in Colorado Springs, it is truly competitive now. I think after KotOR came out, we really got competitivley. I used to play there for fun. Now, I have to design Top squads, or I go 1-2 or 0-3...




If that's what makes the game fun for you, then by all means go for it. I'm just saying that we got tired of the same boring meta squads, so we as a group decided to not play meta, just play fun squads. We just all came to the decision that playing competitively wasn't fun. It goes back to the Attack, Save, Damage aspect that Boris talked about a few months ago. Playing Dodonna? Bring me a pillow cause you'll bore me to death. So we all said no thanks to that crap and we play for fun. That's what it's all about. We're back to the days of building themed squads, or squads built around a little-used piece, or whatever. We used to mandate this every other week. Now we just do it every week because it's just better for everyone that way.

Whichever way you want to play is fine. Just have fun with it.

Here is a link to the Orphans list I maintain: http://www.desmoinesfanforce.net/Orphans.htm Life-sized Tile Wars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAXn5ZwopPc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o64M5_J1JHs Geoncon08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srArBLLHYBQ


Here in Colorado Springs, it is truly competitive now. I think after KotOR came out, we really got competitivley. I used to play there for fun. Now, I have to design Top squads, or I go 1-2 or 0-3...




At what point did the OR faction have a top squad?  I only ask because I've taken either 1st or 2nd 4 times in the last 6 months with the OR at Dale'z... Wink


To answer the OP, I think a big part of the problem is how the game has, IMO, devolved recently. You guys have heard my thoughts on that before, so I won't belabor the point.  Having branched out over the last 6 months into two other games (MTG & WoWM), I have become more and more disappointed with where SWM seems to be going, and the new figs are doing little for that.  I've become bored with the same 80%-of-the-way melee figs that have appeared recently.  It's really as simple as that.


Aside from that, I'm ready for the in-fighting to go away.  I'm ready to just have a place to discuss SWM.  It feels like that place hasn't existed for a long time.

IMAGE(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g424/syreal94/SIGS1AL.png) Sig by zpikduM.

We're back to the days of building themed squads, or squads built around a little-used piece, or whatever.

That's exactly what my local friends and I have started doing as well.  About 6 of us get together and play theme based squads or build around less popular pieces just for fun.  We also never play the same faction back-to-back.  I think we are all having more fun that we have had in a very long time.

Another thing that we like to do every game is openly discuss ideas, strategies, and tactics.  We don't spend a whole bunch of time discussing every detail, that would take up too much time, but we talk just enough to keep things interesting.  Ultimately we don't really care who wins or losses anymore, half the fun is just discussing how we got to the final result.

Smile

Photobucket


One cannot make other people NOT play power-squads even in an environment that is set up to cater to the idea of "non-cutthroat," as I discovered recently.




You're right Dennis, you can't MAKE anyone do anything.  But you can attempt to come to an agreement.  If the people that game at your store refuse to come to an agreement then they may not be willing to be reasonable, and that's a shame.


@Dennis I get what you are saying.  Unfortunately we have never had control over Wizards but what we do have is control over our half of the deal.  So I am asking this community to remember what they love about this game and enjoy it.  Just that simple.



Sadly, it's not. One cannot make other people NOT play power-squads even in an environment that is set up to cater to the idea of "non-cutthroat," as I discovered recently.


It's a difficult issue, especially in a setting where no one wants to discourage others in the group from playing the way they want to play the game. For example, I have ZERO interest in forcing the people I play with locally to leave their Snowspeeders and Rexes and Dashes in the storage box for the weekend game session. It's not my place to do that. However, I have no intention of driving 45 minutes one way to lose because my style of squad preference is "sub-par." But I'm bored with the competitive style of play and I in no way fault them for their playstyle of choice. I wouldn't want them to be bored playing the game I want to play it, either. So what that means is that I am the one with the issue, and I respect that. I'm the one who has to make the choice whether to keep playing.





Boris, is it possible to set up a game with a like-minded friend once in a while? If i lived anywhere near you i would suggest me but, alas, i dont believe you live in denver. I know it is not easy to make time to play but maybe setting up a time with just one player as opposed to a whole group at the local lgs may also bring in a new player or two that will see things in that way and want to play,casual, themed or whatever but less of in a competitive way....just asking

joe

Minis Mayham podcast www.d20radio.com Denver Star Wars Miniatures http://community.wizards.com/denverstarwarsminiatures

I still enjoy playing the game as much now as I did when Rebel Storm came out. My only complaint is that faction are not equally focus on.

I got my first boosters when Rebel Storm came out and I bought it not because of the game, but because it was Star Wars.  Star Wars is just plain fun I was born in 77 so I don't remember the movie when it came out, I do remember in 83 seeing RotJ @ the drive in, and as a kid playing with all my figures that my grand mother purchased for me. The Star Wars book my Grand father bought for me even though I was really to young to understand it at that time.  ( I still have it even though the binding is being held together by tape.)


I enjoy the detailed history of SW and of the characters.  I remember reading Vector Prime and feeling a real loss when Chewie died,  How many books did we have at that point 50 or more?  WE watched the solo kids grow up from babies to Adults and than in the case of some die in tragedy.  We have learned the of the Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. WE continue to see how events twisted him into something less as he losses some of himself in this war


I love the community that is Star Wars and the people that you meet and know, cause you know what, it's cool to be a geek and a nerd.  I am ok being one.


I loved the Decipher CCG game, no offense to Wizards was sorely disappointed when Decipher lost the license, (I had over 50k cards.)  I really enjoyed that game and the objectives which allowed me to recreate the battles and scenes I had watched play out on the screen.  I played in a league twice a week, which always had a specific theme, BAttle of Hoth, Destruction of the Death Star, ECT.... A h such great fun.


 


I Lovve Star Wars, I love Star Wars Miniatures, even if they are a total pain in my arse to store :P


 



One cannot make other people NOT play power-squads even in an environment that is set up to cater to the idea of "non-cutthroat," as I discovered recently.




You're right Dennis, you can't MAKE anyone do anything.  But you can attempt to come to an agreement.  If the people that game at your store refuse to come to an agreement then they may not be willing to be reasonable, and that's a shame.




I wasn't really clear. I have been very non-confrontational about the situation, as much as I can. I don't want them to "compromise" or to "do things my way." I want them to play the game the way they enjoy it, and not change anything just for my sake. I told them I was burned out on the power-gaming, and Jason to his credit offered something as a gesture because they don't want me to stop playing. The gesture was very appreciated, make no mistake. That's probably about as much as I want to say about this publicly. We've talked about some other ideas, and I'm sure I'll figure something out.


The biggest issue is that my wife has lost all interest in playing due to the recent power ramp-up, and so I'm not even playing at home anymore. 



Here in Colorado Springs, it is truly competitive now. I think after KotOR came out, we really got competitivley. I used to play there for fun. Now, I have to design Top squads, or I go 1-2 or 0-3...




At what point did the OR faction have a top squad?  I only ask because I've taken either 1st or 2nd 4 times in the last 6 months with the OR at Dale'z...

To answer the OP, I think a big part of the problem is how the game has, IMO, devolved recently. You guys have heard my thoughts on that before, so I won't belabor the point.  Having branched out over the last 6 months into two other games (MTG & WoWM), I have become more and more disappointed with where SWM seems to be going, and the new figs are doing little for that.  I've become bored with the same 80%-of-the-way melee figs that have appeared recently.  It's really as simple as that.


Aside from that, I'm ready for the in-fighting to go away.  I'm ready to just have a place to discuss SWM.  It feels like that place hasn't existed for a long time.




Did I specifically say OR? No. I was just saying that the time after KotOR came out, Dalez got competitive with new pieces. I'm not saying OR is compeitive, though I almost wen 3-0 and placed 1st yesterday, but went 2-1 and my loss was by 2 pts.... That burns. OR isn't that competitive: If it is played well though, it can sometimes pull out

Dark Lord of Epic Subtlety GTL +1- Gwek If you're in need of a player doing custom STATS (not figs...sorry) for ranges of custom sets to single figs, contact me! I'm open all the time and will work as hard as I can. Thanks!
Sign In to post comments