Oblivion Wrong

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Some of you may remember me raising quite a stink a while back about the Oblivion Ring + Vedalken Mastermind.  I persist in my feelings that this combo should not work, but I've finally come up with something more constructive to do than complain.  I humbly suggest the following template to the rules gurus; please let me know if it does what I want it to do (ie have Oblivion Ring work the same way it does normally, but not be abusable with the Mastermind and similar effects).


When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove target nonland permanent from the game. If you do, return that permanent to play under its owner's control the next time Oblivion Ring is not in play.

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When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove target nonland permanent from the game. If you do, return that permanent to play under its owner's control the next time Oblivion Ring is not in play.

Is the second part of the ability supposed to be a duration or a state-trigger?

By the way, this thread may be of interest to you, though it's from several months back.

Here's an idea: Suck it up and play the cards the way they were written. I trust Wizards to know what they're doing a lot more than I'd trust you, and they were aware of this interaction when they printed the card.

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Here's an idea: Suck it up and play the cards the way they were written. I trust Wizards to know what they're doing a lot more than I'd trust you, and they were aware of this interaction when they printed the card.




They may have been "aware", but I think there's an open question whether they intended the result, or if they simply couldn't come up with an understandable template that removed that side effect while keeping the "normal" printed functionality and so they chose to simply maintain readability and live with it.


Gaming the O-Ring trigger feels almost as cheap as using jewelry to boost your Storm count in Vintage, and there are more than a few people who wish the card didn't work this way.


But, as mentioned elsewhere in the post, there are other threads on the topic.. it's a Rules Issue, not a Rules Q&A thing.. and there's nothing further anyone can contribute on the topic.

Considering they created the Nightmares from Torment a few years before (which works pretty much the same way and had similiar combos), I'm fairly certain they knew what they were doing when they created the Ring.

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The only reason that WotC may get rid of this type of interaction is because it requires a high level of knowledge of the rules and is not intuitive to the lay player. Many players hate it. Many players love it. I personally think it's cheap but I love the rules intricacy of it. There are single cards out there I hate (Mwonvuli Acid-Moss I'm looking at you) let alone nasty combos, but I accept that some players play with them. It's part of the game. Sure it's not fun to play against but there is an answer to every problem in Magic, if there isn't they ban the offending card or combo of cards. O-Ring is not banned so that's where it stands. If you don't like it in your play group, say so and make home rules to disallow its play. If it's a tourney, find out what the Pros use to beat it.

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Oblivion Ring does what its printed text says it does. If the card had been intended to function differently, then an alternative template would have been chosen.

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Editing manager, Magic TCG


Oblivion Ring does what its printed text says it does. If the card had been intended to function differently, then an alternative template would have been chosen.




no ya'll messed up and didn't know it till the card was released and the people started breaking it.

Adopt one today!



Oblivion Ring does what its printed text says it does. If the card had been intended to function differently, then an alternative template would have been chosen.




no ya'll messed up and didn't know it till the card was released and the people started breaking it.




Vanishingly unlikely. Setting aside the fact that (1) one of the few people in a position to know is telling you differently and (2) the relevant set FAQ pointed this out quite explicitly, there is also (3) the fact that they'd been through this before with Faceless Butcher and its bretheren and (4) they had, and could have used if they'd wanted to, the "if it's in play" template going years back.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011



Oblivion Ring does what its printed text says it does. If the card had been intended to function differently, then an alternative template would have been chosen.




no ya'll messed up and didn't know it till the card was released and the people started breaking it.




People have been doing that trick since the days of Torment. It would have been fixed by now if Wizards felt that they messed up. Notice I did not say you. Your opinion doesn't matter all that much to Wizards. It takes a good portion of the playerbase to feel that's a problem for it to be a problem.
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Oblivion Ring does what its printed text says it does. If the card had been intended to function differently, then an alternative template would have been chosen.




no ya'll messed up and didn't know it till the card was released and the people started breaking it.




People have been doing that trick since the days of Torment. It would have been fixed by now if Wizards felt that they messed up. Notice I did not say you. Your opinion doesn't matter all that much to Wizards. It takes a good portion of the playerbase to feel that's a problem for it to be a problem.



wow I is this how wizards wants to be represented? By saying my opinion doesn't matter? I am sure everyone who has an opinion matters to wizards. They want you speaking for them? I think you should ask them first before you spew egotistical nonsense.

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If Wizards accepted every person's opinions, you would have a terrible and conflicting game. Wizards is a company. A company exists to make money. That is best done by catering to the majority. Thus, changes will not happen if the majority is against it. In this case, you are in the minority.

A little bit of courage is the real magic.


If Wizards accepted every person's opinions, you would have a terrible and conflicting game. Wizards is a company. A company exists to make money. That is best done by catering to the majority. Thus, changes will not happen if the majority is against it. In this case, you are in the minority.




I like Oblivion Ring the way it is anyway. :D
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Vanishingly unlikely. Setting aside the fact that (1) one of the few people in a position to know is telling you differently and (2) the relevant set FAQ pointed this out quite explicitly, there is also (3) the fact that they'd been through this before with Faceless Butcher and its bretheren and (4) they had, and could have used if they'd wanted to, the "if it's in play" template going years back.




And (5) -- SPOILER ALERT!! (highlight for spoilers)

There's another new card with the exact same template coming up in Zendikar.

They wouldn't keep printing it if it didn't work as they intended it to...
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Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.


 


 


Here's an idea: Suck it up and play the cards the way they were written. I trust Wizards to know what they're doing a lot more than I'd trust you, and they were aware of this interaction when they printed the card.





Wizards has different priorities than me.  They chose the template they did for Oblivion Ring because they wanted players to be able to use it in a non-obvious way to generate an overpowered effect so they could feel clever about bending the rules and take advantage of unprepared opponents.  Catering to such a mindset does not interest me; I would rather have cards that are flavorfully representative of a "realistic" (within context) idea, such as storing a creature inside a magic ring which bars it from interacting with the playing field, and am not interested in having rules which allow players to succeed at the expense of this flavor.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether Oblivion Ring should work differently; I have already made my decision on that.  I am merely asking those with better comprehension of the rules than me to confirm whether the template I have proposed does what I want it to.

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Its not clear what your template is trying to do. Is it trying to set a duration for the effect, or is it trying to set up a delayed trigger?

You could just word it "When O-Ring enters the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent if O-Ring is on the battlefield." like they did on Parallax Wave.

A little bit of courage is the real magic.

They want you speaking for them? I think you should ask them first before you spew egotistical nonsense.

You're the one who was telling the head of editing that she screwed up and in effect calling her a liar in the process. That's far more a case of spewing egotistical nonsense than anything that's been said to you (at least that I can see, I don't know what content the ORCs removed).
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011

Hmm, I dunno if this would work, but possibly changing it from a triggered ability to a replacement effect would stop that combo.  "As O-ring comes into play, exile target non-land permanent.  ..."  Wording it like that means that you can't respond to the ability and bounce it back to your hand before the targeted permanent is exiled.  You would have to respond to the O-ring while it's on the stack, and in that case nothing has been Exiled yet.


Hmm, I dunno if this would work, but possibly changing it from a triggered ability to a replacement effect would stop that combo.  "As O-ring comes into play, exile target non-land permanent.  ..."  Wording it like that means that you can't respond to the ability and bounce it back to your hand before the targeted permanent is exiled.  You would have to respond to the O-ring while it's on the stack, and in that case nothing has been Exiled yet.




Sigh. Once again, I will remind people (though I will not launch into all the little details that I believe Condor once did) that replacement abilities cannot target--when would you choose the target, what would happen if the target become illegal since a replacement effect never resolves, etc.?


The best "fix" for this (I quote "fix" because it is not broken, despite what some may try to have you believe, and there is no need to fix it when it is very easy to suck it up and deal with it) is to include an intervening-if clause in the first ability: "When Oblivion Ring comes into play, if it's in play, exile target nonland permanent."


This fix will not happen, however, unless something drastic happens to lead to its change. Those not liking it accusing Wizards of not knowing what they're doing (whether by outright calling them liars or by trying to "fix" what isn't broken) is not one of those things that'll cause this to change.


@Fireball-debate: Are you still trying to argue with people who actually know about what they speak?

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It is a template that, in addition to working normally when only the enchantment is played, allows for mini combo with at least another card.


I guess you don't like combos much, but you should respect the players who have fun with it.




Here's an idea: Suck it up and play the cards the way they were written. I trust Wizards to know what they're doing a lot more than I'd trust you, and they were aware of this interaction when they printed the card.





Wizards has different priorities than me.  They chose the template they did for Oblivion Ring because they wanted players to be able to use it in a non-obvious way to generate an overpowered effect so they could feel clever about bending the rules and take advantage of unprepared opponents.  Catering to such a mindset does not interest me; I would rather have cards that are flavorfully representative of a "realistic" (within context) idea, such as storing a creature inside a magic ring which bars it from interacting with the playing field, and am not interested in having rules which allow players to succeed at the expense of this flavor.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether Oblivion Ring should work differently; I have already made my decision on that.  I am merely asking those with better comprehension of the rules than me to confirm whether the template I have proposed does what I want it to.




 


Oh and, you want a fix?


 


Oblivion Truly Wrong 2W


Enchantment - Aura


Enchant Permament


Enchanted permanent loses all abilities.

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If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:


When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.


er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*


hmm perhaps a replacement effect that modifies the way it enters play.


As Oblivion Ring enters play the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.


oh right, Condor nixed that one, but Devour lets you choose creatures as a replacement effect likewise the abilities on Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter.

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The replacement effect won't work, because as Kedar already said, replacement effects can't target. Your first example would have been an acceptable way to close the loop hole.


Edit: misread your first example, and it doesn't work like that.


However, if oblivion ring wasn't meant to be used like this, [SPOILER] they wouldn't print the new card in zendikar with the same template. Tidehollow Sculler works the same way. If WotC thought the template was broken, I'm sure it would have been fixed by now.

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The replacement effect won't work, because as Kedar already said, replacement effects can't target. Your first example would have been an acceptable way to close the loop hole.


However, if oblivion ring wasn't meant to be used like this, [SPOILER] they wouldn't print the new card in zendikar with the same template. Tidehollow Sculler works the same way. If WotC thought the template was broken, I'm sure it would have been fixed by now.




hmm but you could get around the replacement effect targeting

Vesuvan Shapeshifter chooses a creature otb to copy as it enters play, therefore, it is allowable to choose something.


so with some fancy wording...


As Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, choose a permanent on the battlefield that Oblivion Ring could target as if it were an aura with enchant permanent and exile that permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play.

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If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:


When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.


er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*


No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.

hmm perhaps a replacement effect that modifies the way it enters play.

As Oblivion Ring enters play the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.


oh right, Condor nixed that one, but Devour lets you choose creatures as a replacement effect likewise the abilities on Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter.


Static abilities cannot target, because only objects on the stack can ever have a target; replacement effects, whether generated by static abilities or continuous effects set up by resolved spells, activated or triggersed abilities, simply cannot be objects on the stack.

Neither Clone nor Vesuvan Shaopeshifter target anything. The choice that is made is a nontargeting choice (which is why you can Clone a creature with Shroud, or sacrifice them to Devouring creatures and so oin.)

The way to get what Willpell wants is to add an intervening If clause to the first trigger, so it does not remove the targeted permanent if the O-Ring leaves play before its ETB trigger resolves (see Necromancy.)

The fact that R&D don't do it (and eight years after the release of the first card with this combo are still putting out more) is that they feel it is not overpowered, and adds something to the game (an "Oh I see" moment) that is one of the main hooks for a certain type of player.
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If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:


When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.


er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*


No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.



Not? Like all those blink effects? :/
Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.

Maybe I just misunderstood what you meant.

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No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.




Not? Like all those blink effects? :/
Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.

Maybe I just misunderstood what you meant.




Turn to Mist: Exile target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.


There is no duration there.  There is a one-shot effect as the spell resolves - "Exile target creature" - and another one-shot effect that happens at the beginning of the next end step - "Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control".


By comparison:


Giant Growth: Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.


There is a continuous effect - "Target creature gets +3/+3" - with a duration - "until end of turn".

Not? Like all those blink effects? :/

Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.


Turn to Mist is a perfect example, thanks.

If it were possible to write a zone change  effect as a continuous effect with a duration, Turn to Mist would be worded "Exile target creature until end of turn." It is not worded that way precisely because zone change events are one-shot effects, not continuous effects.
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If you want Oblivion Ring to put a permanent beyond use without the ability to use it as a Vindicate-by-any-other-name, the simplest answer, to my eyes, would be to use Phasing:


Oblivion PhaseEnchantmentWhen ~ enters the battlefield, target permanent phases out.
Permanents phased out this way do not phase back in.

That would seem to do it, no? One triggered ability with a separate linked static ability.

ΦΦΦΦΦ

That would seem to do it, no?

No.

You cast the Enchantment in your Pre-Combat Main Phase.
It resolves, the Trigger is put on the Stack; You Target Our sole untapped Creature; The trigger resolves.
We have a Disenchant in hand, cast it and destroy the Enchantment.


With O-Ring, the Creature is returned NOW and CAN be Declared as Blocking.
With your Enchantment, Our Creature won't return until Our Untap Step on Our next turn, which means it could NOT be Declared as Blocking.


 


IF WotC were to given in to the players who whine and complain about Card intreaction, they'd use an 'Intervening "If" Clause'.
They have NOT done that, and they have continued to use the template, since Torment at the least.


If fact, it was the MAIN theme of the Waking Nightmares theme Deck!


One combo in Waking Nightmares is very tricky. With some help from the Odyssey set's Malevolent Awakening, your Nightmares can take things away for good.

How? When you play a Nightmare, such as Faceless Butcher, it comes into play ability goes on the stack. In response, you sacrifice the Butcher to play Malevolent Awakening's ability. Then the Butcher's leaves-play ability resolves first, but the Butcher hasn't removed a creature from the game yet. The leaves-play effect does nothing. So the comes-into-play effect removes a creature from the game that can never be brought back!



If you want Oblivion Ring to put a permanent beyond use without the ability to use it as a Vindicate-by-any-other-name, the simplest answer, to my eyes, would be to use Phasing:


Oblivion PhaseEnchantmentWhen ~ enters the battlefield, target permanent phases out.
Permanents phased out this way do not phase back in.

That would seem to do it, no? One triggered ability with a separate linked static ability.




That, however, is a functional change.  Phased-out permanents get to "remember" things such as counters placed on them and enchantments that are attached, (and even their tapped/flipped status?) etc.  What's wrong with the plain-old "intervening 'if' clause" that was mentioned (multiple times) already?

When ~ enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, remove target nonland permanent from the game.

That way, if it is not still on the battlefield when the first trigger resolves, nothing happensHowever, the whole argument is moot, since it has already been stated that oblivion ring works as intended, the functionality was known when it was printed (and had been for several years), a different tempmlate COULD have been used and it WASN'T.  It's not like this is some surprise interaction that popped up unexpectedly or anything.  Oblivion Ring does what it's supposed to already.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
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What's wrong with the plain-old "intervening 'if' clause" that was mentioned (multiple times) already?


Nothing. I just want Phasing to come back, is all...Tongue out

ΦΦΦΦΦ

Is the second part of the ability supposed to be a duration or a state-trigger?


Delayed trigger.  The MTG rules have the technology for a card to create a triggered ability which goes off at a particular time even if the card isn't in play; that is how a "container" card of any variety should work.  The fact that the designers of Torment thought it was somehow okay to do things otherwise is of no relevance; Odyssey block was a nightmarishly fouled-up design on about four other levels besides, and should never, ever be used as a precedent for anything.


Sigh. Once again, I will remind people (though I will not launch into all the little details that I believe Condor once did) that replacement abilities cannot target--when would you choose the target, what would happen if the target become illegal since a replacement effect never resolves, etc.?


You would choose the target while playing the replacement effect, and there would be no funky shenanigans with the target becoming illegal in response, which would be an upside AFAIC.  If you want your turtle to hide in its shell from something that might step on its head, it has to do so before something actually steps on its head; this is common sense.  The fewer "while the bullet is in midair, I pull my shield out of my pack and block it" moments Magic can be made to contain, the better.


Neither Clone nor Vesuvan Shaopeshifter target anything. The choice that is made is a nontargeting choice (which is why you can Clone a creature with Shroud, or sacrifice them to Devouring creatures and so oin.)


There is no reason it could not work that way.  You'd be choosing a target without giving a window to respond, but you'd still be unable to choose things that are naturally untargetable; it would just force players of things that have activated shroud to guess whether you were planning to target them or not.  Give up this neurotic obsession you have with consistency, and let different abilities actually work different ways.


Oblivion Phase (stupid italic text is evil and will not die so I'm not actually copying)


This is an interesting idea, but not what I had in mind.


When ~ enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, remove target nonland permanent from the game.


The Stalking Yeti template is disgusting.  The fact that the phrase "When this comes into play, if it's in play" is meaningful in Magic is proof of how degenerate the game is; I don't have an overall solution that would do away with such nonsense, but I refuse to actually use such a moronic turn of phrase. 


Nobody has yet actually addressed my question, which is whether my template works.  It's a simple yes or no question.  If nobody can give me a reason why "the next time Oblivion Ring is not in play" is not a valid time-coordinate for the delayed trigger to resolve (so that a Masterminded Ring would remove its target and then immediately return it), I will assume it works and the discussion will be concluded AFAIC.

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Nobody has yet actually addressed my question, which is whether my template works.  It's a simple yes or no question.




Alright, then, the answer is no.



If nobody can give me a reason why "the next time Oblivion Ring is not in play" is not a valid time-coordinate for the delayed trigger




Triggered abilities don't trigger on "time coordinates." They trigger on events or on a particular game state. "The next time Oblivion Ring is not in play" is neither an event nor a particular game state.

 

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What's wrong with the plain-old "intervening 'if' clause" that was mentioned (multiple times) already?


Nothing. I just want Phasing to come back, is all...



 they have realized that's a huge mistake as well. The mechanic Phasing. It will never come back. Just like equipment won't be rediculously powerful no more. so they won't be reprinting jitte, or clamps, or sofai,and the likes.
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I am sooo sick of this entire thing.  For O-Ring and the multiple other cards in the same vein to do something "broken" another resource must also be used, generally requiring it to be done at a later time and with a higher investment resulting in what is, essentially, still a "fair" exchange.


The entirety of Magic removal philosophy is based on such things, get over it.


If I spend two cards (say, Tidehollow Sculler and Momentary Blink) to remove 1 card from the game AND give you the change to get another back I think you're still on a good end here people, you can still get one of those cards back while "I" just spent mana and a WHOLE OTHER CARD to gain a similar gain as simply "playing another removal/discard spell."


It's called Combo and it's part of what makes Magic good, the stuff works together.

THIS POST IS OFF TOPIC (i would sblock it if i could)


 they have realized that's a huge mistake as well. The mechanic Phasing. It will never come back.

The mistake with phasing was that it was hard to understand, and could not be spelled out on the card. But have you seen the way it looks with the M10 updates?

Breezekeeper 3U


Flying, Phasing (This phases in or out before you untap during each of your untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.)


4/4


That reminder text is quite short, and now that no zone change is involved, zone-change triggers are easy to grok.


I am sooo sick of this entire thing.  For O-Ring and the multiple other cards in the same vein to do something "broken" another resource must also be used, generally requiring it to be done at a later time and with a higher investment resulting in what is, essentially, still a "fair" exchange.




Note that willpell's complaint is not that the combo is overpowered. His complaint is that the combo shouldn't work because it doesn't fit the flavor of the card, and that is a valid opinion. He wants to play a game that's driven by flavor, not by mechanical rules. Unfortunately for him, Magic the Gathering, as standardized by the Comprehensive Rules and played in DCI-sanctioned tournaments, is not such a game.


 

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I'm aware, but in terms of "flavor" any one of us super-powerful planeswalkers picked this spell up on some world like Lorwyn, saw potential beyond it's original design and are spending a bit of resources to use said potential.


Ta-da?


I'm aware, but in terms of "flavor" any one of us super-powerful planeswalkers picked this spell up on some world like Lorwyn, saw potential beyond it's original design and are spending a bit of resources to use said potential.


Ta-da?




Well, you don't need to convince me. This actually highlights the fundamental problem of using flavor: Different people have different interpretations of what's flavorful. While the game rules and card designs are motivated by flavor, the flavor ultimately needs to be distilled into a set of rigorously defined rules and card templates so that when two people from opposite ends of the planet meet at an international tournament, they can agree on what exactly happens in any given situation.

 

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