Blogger's take on D&D and MMO's

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www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/052009/45...


I really can't understand, nor have heard a compelling argument, why role-playing must be covered in rules. I'm not interested in trading combat prowess for the ability to paint. I know this argument is as exciting as debating politics but he's taking a stab at D&D to turn would-be gamers off of it. Role-playing will never be complete with any system because too many possibilities exist. Nice try pal. If Boba Fett from the Star Wars cartoon special taught us anything, it's not to trust anyone who calls you "friend."


www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/052009/45...


I really can't understand, nor have heard a compelling argument, why role-playing must be covered in rules. I'm not interested in trading combat prowess for the ability to paint. I know this argument is as exciting as debating politics but he's taking a stab at D&D to turn would-be gamers off of it. Role-playing will never be complete with any system because too many possibilities exist. Nice try pal. If Boba Fett from the Star Wars cartoon special taught us anything, it's not to trust anyone who calls you "friend."




What I don't understand is, it's been over a year. People need to move the hell on and stop nerdraging.

If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.

So, it's a commercial for pathfinder?

What I don't understand is, it's been over a year. People need to move the hell on and stop nerdraging.


I fully agree that they should... but I know they won't.


Stopping themselves from nerdraging would require a measure of intellect, self control, and a grasp of reality that many appear not to have.


I can barely even stomach reading opinions like those shown in the linked blog... treating falcity as fact, ignoring all precedent and context, and straight up trash talking... and yet people say those two little words that some people only hear once and believe that indicates a majority: "I agree."


I wish people would stop pretending that WoW somehow created party roles... party roles have existed ever since the first time that someone said "you know, it'd be better if we had one party member of each class (Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and Mage - not by those names specifically of course) so that the party can handle any challenge that the DM might decide to toss us."


All WoW did was be popular - that doesn't make it original in any way.


...I also wish people could believe that their character can bake delicious cakes without their being numbers involved...

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

am I reading the article right? It feels to me to basically be nothing more then a thinly veiled add for Pathfinder. The majority of the post if attacking their biggest competitor, and then it ends with an endorsement for said system.
Is it just me or is he claiming that there is not support in the system for your character to be a potter, or for him to know how to play the flute when there are in the rules under Backgrounds, which received a prototype version a couple months after release with the Scale of War background set.
It also seems to me that he is saying there is not system to cover say a dinner party hosted by the local baron, which would obviously be a skill challenge.


Not certain that is what it is, just how it feels ot me.


This is bad but I actually wish Wizards would have their lawyers check this and every other blog like it to see if there is enough stuff there that they are claiming as fact that either can not be verified or is verifiable false to justify a liable to try for a liable case, and eventually someone needs to get hit with such a lawsuit so that bloggers will realize they need to be able to back up what they say. But that is probably because I want to see certain things proved false in a court of law.


 


 


 

It also seems to me that he is saying there is not system to cover say a dinner party hosted by the local baron, which would obviously be a skill challenge.


Or it could compleatly all rp with no die rolling whatsoever.

4th killed RP because you can't say "i've got Profession (baker) 5 ranks" and now have to say "my character trained as a baker"


it also killed your puppy because it doesn't have a chart for the purchase of animals. you can't have a puppy unless you're a beastmaster ranger.


and your baby because it doesn't have an age chart. so babies don't exist.

3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2

it also killed your puppy because it doesn't have a chart for the purchase of animals



Actually, it does ... AV, p11.

well the PHB DMG & MM, i doubt this guy has bothered to do any research beyond it.

3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2

Personally I dislike 4.0. Version 3.5 was very fun! My friend's dad has a big shed with tons of old school D&D books, comics, NES games, an r2-d2 cooler, legos. it's awesome, anyway i'm rambling. we use it for RP and i don't think i would ever allow 4.0 in there. nope. 

Most bizarre is the claim that people will not stay invested in an MMO if it doesn't force you to sacrifice combat effectiveness for other skills.  If WoW made you sacrifice DPS for basketweaving, there would only be a bunch of basketweavers cancelling their subscription after three days because they kept getting slaughtered by random warthogs.

There should be a qualification all bloggers should be forced to take - "The difference between opinion and fact".


So, it's a commercial for pathfinder?




Apparently, yes.


And I'd just like to register my agreement that I don't really understand what this guy is talking about.  "All of the diverse array of skills and other rules" apparently translates to "cook, paint, or dance"?  Fantastic.  I believe he could have tried to make a colorable point, had he focused on some of the magical options that no longer exist, rather than "I can't be a painter, because I can't put skill points into it."

Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)

Ooooo a random person on teh internet. I guess I'd better listen closely.

How often is basket weaving important to a game of dnd?

Can't respect someone who needs a book to show him how to role play or needs numbers to validate his character's personality or hobbies.

Homebrew classes: Guerrilla, Airbender, Earthbender, Firebender, and Waterbender. (PHASE 2 BEGINS! Tell us how we could make these classes better. The Shadow power source done right.

First thing I have to say is how old are these people. I started playing with 1st and have gone up from there. I have seen the changes thoughout the whole system. Most people complaining started with 3rd and can not handle change. Also saying 4th is a MMO on paper is totally wrong. MMOs, like WOW, are D&D on computer. I can not stand MMOs because I find them too limiting, I used to play WOW but got bored. All of you complaining is not going to bring it back. I loved 2nd and when 3rd came out I hated it but I knew bitching about it would do nothing. All I can say to some of these people is GROW UP, change happens.


How often is basket weaving important to a game of dnd?




profession is a class skill fo Fighters, therefore it's their only source of income whilst their Arcane / Divine buddies are trading on the property market with flying cloud castle.


So to Steve the Basketmaking Fighter, it's very important.


Just don't mention the Baskets of holding his Arcane / Divine buddies can also make.

In previous editions of the game, and most specifically the 3.5 rules system that came before, if I wanted my character to have spent some time learning how to be a master painter, there were rules to accommodate that. If I wanted my character to know about architecture, or engineering, there were rules for that too. Not only were there rules, but in order to have those hallmarks of individuality, in order for my character to have spent time learning how to cook, or paint, or dance, time had to be taken away from combat and combat related training. It was a conscious decision to lean toward roleplay that the old rules facilitated nicely. The new rules, not so much.

If, under the new rules, I want my character to be able to do any of the above mentioned activities, I can just make it up. The books and the game’s supporters will tell you that you don’t need specific rules or tools provided by the game in order to roleplay, in order to flesh out your character to a place beyond simply combat statistics.

Right. 3.5 was better because if I wanted to be a master painter, I would have to spend skill points on it so I know how to paint. Then to become a better painter and eventually a master painter, I can spend no time role playing learning how to paint. Instead, I just go and kill monsters to gain XP to gain levels so I can put more skill points towards my skill in painting. Every time I kill more monsters and gain levels, I become better and better at painting. By the time I reach epic levels and have kill so many monsters, I would become one of the best painters in the land. That is why 3.5 is so much better on the role playing side than 4E. I actually have to kill monsters to become a master painter instead of just making up a background that includes being a master painter. 3.5 does not allow me to cheat. I actually have to work at becoming a master painter. That is why 3.5 is much better for role playing than 4E.
<\ \>tuntman


How often is basket weaving important to a game of dnd?




"The Weave is falling apart!  I don't know how much longer the fabric of reality can handle this kind of stress, Captain!"


"Keep it together, mage, the entire world is relying on us!"


"I'm giving her all she's got, Captain, but the mythal, she's buckling!  We can't hold the strands together, we need to rebind them in some sort of geometric form!"


And lo, a hero did appear...

actually, that's profession(magic weaver). it's a different skill then profession(basketweaver). sorry, the fighter looses (don't worry, he's used to it by now Wink).

3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2

There is actually a mod for the Elder Scrolls games that allows your character to learn basket weaving.  I thought it was absolutely bewildering.  I mean, I can see the justification for these kinds of skills in a multiplayer RPG.  Sure, the mechanic may only get used once a year, but at least there is something on your character sheet that tells the other players where your unusual skills lie.  But in a single player game where every quest is already fixed, and there are maybe three basket models you could potentially produce?  What possible value could adding basketweaving as a mechanic possibly serve?  Increasing it allowed the player to make more baskets with fewer materials – baskets that are already scattered all around the gameworld, free to steal, nearly free to purchase, and serve no purpose whatsoever besides scenery.  Who the hell needs MORE of them?

MMO'ers roleplaying by spending time advancing mundane skills makes me roll on the floor and giggle. Some MMO's actually have uses for things produced via these skills, so they are not without advantage. However, the normal waste-of-time grind to level in a MMO is so completely boring to me, I couldn't imaging ever bothering to use play-time to learn to basket weave (or equivalent.) I guess I just don't get it. Maybe its worth bragging rights. Maybe some players are so inept at roleplaying that they cannot imagine pretending to be a character that can paint w/o a number published for all to see quantifing actual play-time used to accrue it.


Me:  Wow, you actually spent 137 hours baking bread.


Baker: Yep. That's what it takes to be bread master.


Me: Okeeeey.


 



How often is basket weaving important to a game of dnd?




"The Weave is falling apart!  I don't know how much longer the fabric of reality can handle this kind of stress, Captain!"


"Keep it together, mage, the entire world is relying on us!"


"I'm giving her all she's got, Captain, but the mythal, she's buckling!  We can't hold the strands together, we need to rebind them in some sort of geometric form!"


And lo, a hero did appear...





Make whole spell done.  No skill necessary.

I think the biggest problem with the article is that he proposes that a system where you go out and kill goblins, and then sacrifice some of the goblin-killing ability you might get from that to become better at basket weaving is somehow superior to a system where you just say "I spent 3 years weaving baskets, and so now I am a master basketweaver".


 


I don't think either is ideal for modelling reality. But one of them is a lot closer to it than the other.

How about this for role-playing mechanics in 4th edition:


Me: I want to weave a basket.


DM: OK! Skill Challenge complexity 1.


Me: Ok. I would like to use history to recall a recipe to use, streetwise to find the appropriate materials, nature to judge the materials and make sure they are adequate, and endurance to get it done in two days.


DM: Sounds good...::four successes and one failure later::... You've made a basket! You had exceptionally high rolls on two of your checks so it's a very good quality basket!


Me: Cool. I put poop in it and light it on fire on the governor's doorstep.


DM: The guards have spotted you. Skill Challenge complexity 5 to get away.


Me: Oh boy...


Characters are supposed to be prodigies of society. The reason the mechanics give half-level bonuses to checks is to show that they are able to perform difficult deeds and even attempt things beyond their expertise. It isn't far-fetched to believe that my character could potentially walk into a dwarven smith and call on his skills to help him make a sword. Use diplomacy to see how well he could work with the smith. Allow different skill challenge complexities based on good and bad results on the diplomacy check, or work the diplomacy check into the skill challenge.


That is D&D. You play whatever game you want with the rules. Try to think beyond what your character sheet says, Mr. 15 year D&D veteran blogger.


 


 

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