Gain At-Will Power Feat?

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Are there any rumors or information on the possibility of a feat to let a player pick up another at-will power? I can’t imagine any balance issues, since you can pick from any of them when you start, and you can already see how having an extra one affects a game if you have ever had a human in your group.

For a good chunk of people, two is enough, but in certain situations it would be really nice to have the option of a third waiting on the bench. There are some who would argue that the basic ranged and melee attacks are enough, but it would be nice to be able to pick from your own or a similar class so you can use a stat that is good for your class, not just Strength for melee and Dex for ranged.

Anything along the lines of say, a feat to pick up an extra at-will from your class, and/or a multiclass feat to pick up an at-will from your multiclass class.
It sounds pretty overpowered to me. The extra at-will is the Human's main racial ability; to award that to anyone through a single feat would ruin the appeal of the Human.
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I have wondered about this myself, but AJ is right; that's the Human's defining trait.

I wouldn't mind seeing an item or feat that lets you store an at-will power, then switch it out as a daily power (item or utility), but adding a straight-up at-will is excessive.

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As a human feat, it might not be so bad... but as a normal feat, no. Completely negates any advantages that being a human would grant.
If you want to be able to use your primary stat for melee basic attacks, the feat Melee Training from the Player's Handbook 2 will let you do just that.
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As a human feat, it might not be so bad... but as a normal feat, no. Completely negates any advantages that being a human would grant.

Well, not completely. They'd still receive an extra feat, skills, a flexible ability score bump, and access to all those nifty human-only rules elements. But it's probably not something that should be added without serious consideration as to how it'll affect the game.
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I see no problems with it. Heck, it might even be good to give everyone a 3rd at-will (Humans would get 4) at level 4 to help get from the "new character smell" to "my character has enough powers to be interesting".

Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
I see no problems with it. Heck, it might even be good to give everyone a 3rd at-will (Humans would get 4) at level 4 to help get from the "new character smell" to "my character has enough powers to be interesting".

Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".

Exactly, not to mention that you would being gaining a 3rd at-will that humans have, but your losing a feat slot that humans would get to keep (almost making it worse than being a human once you've blown whatever racial your race gets).

There are some interesting class combo/roles out there, and while Melee Training is nice your option for a ranged weapon are Strength and Dexterity (not bad, but not open to everyone)

And lets be honest, can anyone out there who is multi-classing not at one point wanted one of the at-wills from their multiclass?
I see no problems with it. Heck, it might even be good to give everyone a 3rd at-will (Humans would get 4) at level 4 to help get from the "new character smell" to "my character has enough powers to be interesting".

Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".

Actually, a more appropriate one would be "hey, we should make a feat that grants dragon's breath". The avenger's ability is not the same as the elf's. It does not allow a reroll like the elf's ability, but rather allows an avenger in the right situation to roll two dice and take the better of the two. Moreover, an avenger can use the elven ability to roll 4 dice.

However, the human ability is exactly an extra at-will.
Actually, a more appropriate one would be "hey, we should make a feat that grants dragon's breath". The avenger's ability is not the same as the elf's. It does not allow a reroll like the elf's ability, but rather allows an avenger in the right situation to roll two dice and take the better of the two. Moreover, an avenger can use the elven ability to roll 4 dice.

However, the human ability is exactly an extra at-will.

Yep. And this would be an at-will at the cost of a feat, while the humans through diversity gets exactly a free at-will that doesn't cost them a feat at all!
I've been kicking around an idea of letting a player replace a At Will with a Lvl 1 Encounter Power, that would become a At-Will instead.

A little more powerful then what you would normally see at that level. However, I'm not sure that it'd break anything. I'll have to think about it some more, obviously.

Edit: At Epic Tier! That's what I meant!
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My point was that humans have an extra at will, but are not exclusively (nor should they be!) as such.

Comparing a non-human with the theoretical feat, to a human -- they may now have the same number of at-wills, but the human has two more options to pick for feats (one for being human, one for not needing / wanting the feat).

Or, they both get the feat, the non-human has three, and the human has four.
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
To add to this debate, I would not consider "three at wills" the signature human ability anyway.

Consider: Human Soul (the revenant racial feat) doesn't give a third at-will -- it gives the human NAD bonus.
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
Yep. And this would be an at-will at the cost of a feat, while the humans through diversity gets exactly a free at-will that doesn't cost them a feat at all!

Why not simply give all exclusive abilities as a feat? Make a feat that allows people to shapeshift into any humanoid form at will like the doppelganger, or a feat that allows you to rest only for 4 hours without sleeping? Hell, let's make a feat that grants a +2 bonus to an attribute, so long as you haven't already gotten the feat for that attribute and didn't get a bonus for your race.

I'm sorry, but I think racial traits should stay racial traits to some degree. The advantage to playing a specific race is lost if you take that away. It would make it better to simply make every character the same race-wise with three bonus feats you can spend on whatever to define the aspects that are racial.
I'm afraid you don't understand. The human trait isn't "Humans get 3 at-will abilities". It's, "Humans have one more at-will ability than an otherwise identical character."

Elven Druids have 3 at-wills.
Human Druids have 4.

Tiefling Warlocks with Twin-fold Pact have 3 at-wills.

Human Warlocks with the same feat have four.


I think you're looking at this the wrong way.
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
I think the idea is that humans get an extra at-will and it doesn't cost them anything at all, the racial aspect being that its free.

Other players can copy that by chosing a specific class, but it costs them the freedom of having any class.

Like other players can get a power that lets them teleport, but it doesn't diminish the quality of my Eladrin Fey Step power because I got it for free, but they had to give something up (gold, item slot, choice in class) to get it.

So does that make Fey Step worse? No.

Would a feat to get an at-will diminish the human racial? I don't think so.
Are there any rumors or information on the possibility of a feat to let a player pick up another at-will power?

As a Wizard player, I say that this idea would be awesome!

Until we get it, I just keep a lot of Master's wands of X tucked into my belt.
Exactly, not to mention that you would being gaining a 3rd at-will that humans have, but your losing a feat slot that humans would get to keep (almost making it worse than being a human once you've blown whatever racial your race gets).

There are some interesting class combo/roles out there, and while Melee Training is nice your option for a ranged weapon are Strength and Dexterity (not bad, but not open to everyone)

What class are you talking about that doesn't have strength or dex as a primary stat and doesn't have a ranged at-will power? I can't seem to find it in the CharBuilder or any of the books...

And lets be honest, can anyone out there who is multi-classing not at one point wanted one of the at-wills from their multiclass?

That's what paragon multiclassing is for. In fact, it's the only thing paragon multiclassing is for.


Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.
What class are you talking about that doesn't have strength or dex as a primary stat and doesn't have a ranged at-will power? I can't seem to find it in the CharBuilder or any of the books...



That's what paragon multiclassing is for. In fact, it's the only thing paragon multiclassing is for.


Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.

Paragon multi-classing gives you one of the other classes at-will powers? Didn't know that. I also don't believe that everyone would take it. Like you have said, most classes have a way to toss in a melee for the ranged classes or a ranged for the melee classes, but there are a few instances and character types people want to built to match the character in their head.

Without the feat, you can't do it at all. So, what is the harm of having the feat?
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.

What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
Paragon multi-classing gives you one of the other classes at-will powers? Didn't know that. I also don't believe that everyone would take it. Like you have said, most classes have a way to toss in a melee for the ranged classes or a ranged for the melee classes, but there are a few instances and character types people want to built to match the character in their head.

Without the feat, you can't do it at all. So, what is the harm of having the feat?

What do you mean match the character in your head? Very few at-wills are notably different from each other from a fluff perspective, so it shouldn't make any different to the character in your head which at-wills you pick.

If you think most characters wouldn't want it, go ask CharOps. Ask them how many of their characters would give up a feat for an extra at-will. I bet you it will be 75% or more; almost every build that's not either built around picking one at-will and turbo-charging it (magic missile spam builds, mainly) or already has all the at-will powers from its class that are any good and use the right attack stat (certain warlock and druid builds, for example).


Long story short, gaining an extra at-will for just a feat is both overpowered and reduces character diversity.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.

What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?

Exactly. They have few of the advantages that other races have. They do not get a racial skill bonus which stacks with skill training, do not get racial enhancements like most races do, and do not get a racial encounter power. Instead, they get an at-will, a trained skill, defense bonuses and a feat. Of those three, only the at-will is unique to the humans.

If this were to become a feat, it would have to be a human feat if it existed at all, and even then it might be something we would restrict from half-human races.
Humans get a NAD boost.

I really don't understand the "such a feat would devalue humans". Is the issue that all classes only have 2 or 3 really good at wills? And it can't devalue humans if they can also get the feat -- then they have four at-wills, and even more options than the other.

I know many warlocks who would kill for a feat like this, as currently, being Human is the *only* way to pick up Eldritch Strike (Or Half-elf non-warlocks, or a PHBIII Hybrid)
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.

Except Revenants?
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
Except Revenants?

Taking Racial powers is the whole point of revenants. So making a generally available feat for a new At will and you devalued both humans AND revanants. :P
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.

What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?

well... again you miss the point. Them getting it for free is their racial power.

Every race has a racial. You can find something simular to all of them in feats, items, powers from classes accesable to all players, but at the cost of a feat slot, gold and an item slot, or class choice.

Humans get a extra at-will power. (if the feat existed) To everyone else it would cost a feat slot.
Eladrin get Fey Step power. If you get a Rod of the Feywild or level in a class that has a teleport power (there are many) they you get Fey Step with another name, but it cost gold or your restricted to that class.

So at this point were already "devaluing and overpowered" for "giving away" the Eladrin racial (even though you have to give something up for it) why not humans also?

how many of their characters would give up a feat for an extra at-will. I bet you it will be 75% or more; almost every build that's not either built around picking one at-will and turbo-charging it (magic missile spam builds, mainly) or already has all the at-will powers from its class that are any good and use the right attack stat (certain warlock and druid builds, for example)

So 3 out of 4 people in the group pick it up. The interesting thing is that I'm trying to pick it up so my warlock who through game events are pushing him to need a melee ability, but I don't want to be stuck with Eyebite as my only ranged attack once my limited powers are spent. If I go with a melee basic it will cost me a feat anyway to use the stat I need, if I go with eldritch strike over blast then my last ranged at-will is either a basic (dex using a ranged weapon) or Eyebite (1d6 and I lose the diversity of attacks that target different saves).

But I can see what you mean. If I have Eldritch Strike and Blast, and Eyebite thanks to a feat, then I'm essentially the same as the Paladin bent on cleansing the world of undead, and the power-hungry Wizard, and the Shaman cleansing the land with her spirit animal. I mean, the collective 9 at-wills we all have leave us an individuals, but if we add one or two more at-wills to that, we might as well all just take turns playing the same character.
I don't see it being much of an issue, so long as it comes from the base class. Getting it from a multiclass would be too powerful, though. The only potential issue I see is with hybrids, but I'm not familiar enough with those rules to make a good judgment about that.
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Whether or not this eclipses the Human's extra at-will, it's far too strong for a single feat. Don't expect to ever see it without some huge restriction or drawback.
No part of me felt it would be Heroic Teir to say the least.

Have it be Heroic Teir to give you another class at-will as an encounter power (sort of like how Arcane Initiate gives you another classes at-will as an encounter power), and then a Paragon Teir that makes it at-will again.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.

What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?

You know that Warlocks already have this feat:

Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.


...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...
I think it'd be balanced as part of an ED, or maybe as an epic feat that you can only take once. Humans would thus be able to have four. It's still a little lackluster, though, as the fourth would be inherently worse than the third.

I could see a paragon feat, maybe, that allows you to gain an at-will from your own class as an encounter power.
The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
You know that Warlocks already have this feat:

Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.


...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...

Except that non-human warlocks don't get choose their at-wills. Twofold pact finally lets them choose one.

If all wizards were forced to take magic missile and then orb wizards were locked into taking thunderwave, staff wizards locked into taking ray of frost and wand wizards locked into taking scorching burst THEN you could expect a similar wizard feat.
You know that Warlocks already have this feat:

Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.


...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...

Probably because Warlocks don't normally get to really choose their at-wills. They get Eldritch blast, the most boring at-will power EVER (Hey, it's a longbow!), and one other thing inextricably tied to their choice of pact. If you've ever played it, too, that second at-will gets very little usage because of how situational it almost always is.

So yes, it's fine for the warlock. But for other classes (Especially controllers, and ESPECIALLY the wizard) it is far from balanced. I could maybe see it happening in Epic tier. Maybe. But it's still not likely.
And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.

As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.
If you look past the plot and the voice acting, Metroid: Other M was an okay game. Not a great game, but an adequate one. Not using the Metroid item collect jingle though? That, was a mistake.
And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.

As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.

Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.
Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.

Yet it may also be intentional.
But really it's like they say about laws, you shouldn't write a law to let you do something, you should only have laws to get rid of the bad things and you're free to do the rest (which doesn't quite translate to an RPG, but you get the idea).

If there isn't anything particulary broken about eventually getting another at-will, then it would be nice to have.

But what I'd really like to know is if any of the devs have tossed the idea around, and if so what their final word is.
But really it's like they say about laws, you shouldn't write a law to let you do something, you should only have laws to get rid of the bad things and you're free to do the rest (which doesn't quite translate to an RPG, but you get the idea).

Actually I don't. What does that have to do with feats?

If there isn't anything particulary broken about eventually getting another at-will, then it would be nice to have.

And we're saying there is. Because there is, especially if it's any earlier than epic tier.

But what I'd really like to know is if any of the devs have tossed the idea around, and if so what their final word is.

Well, you're not going to hear anything from them here :P
I think its overstating things to say this would be a drastically powerful feat. The vast majority of classes would gain only marginally from an extra at-will. There are a few specific builds it would be handy for, like some warlocks, beast master rangers perhaps, druids maybe, perhaps shaman.

In terms of it devaluing humans, I'm not really fully convinced on that front either. Given the number of "must have" type feats out there now I think burning a feat slot is a fairly significant cost. Given that there are plenty of other ways to acquire powers similar to an extra at-will already I just don't know that it really steps on humans that much.

I'll reserve judgment, but I'd be interested in some actual detailed discussion of what the mechanical issues would be. Really the main argument I can see against it now is stepping on Twofold Pact, but then again that does have other benefits.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Ways that this idea (or something close to it) could work (IMHO):

1.) A feat that let's you pick an extra at-will from your class, but forces you to choose 1 at-will during every extended rest that you can't use until your next extended rest (most PCs would have 3 at-wills, but only be able to use 2 of the 3 at any given time).

2.) A multi-class feat that allows you to sub out one of your at-wills for an at-will in the other class when you choose the feat.

3.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will from your class (or perhaps from any class using your power source?) that you can use if you spend an action point to get access to it for that battle.

4.) An item that grants acces to an at-will attack once per encounter, or until the end of the encounter if you expend a daily item power.

5.) A feat that allows you to choose an extra at-will (that requires a standard action normally) that you can use as a standard action, but only on your turn, only if you have not yet used a move or minor action during your turn, and if you use it you can't take a minor or move action on your turn.

6.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will that you can use only when you're bloodied.

7.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will that you can use only when you're not bloodied.

8.) A feat that allows a human to pick up an extra at-will from the human's class.

9.) A consumable item that allows a character to use a specific at-will once.

10.) A feat that allows a PC to trade 1 encounter power for an extra at-will.
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And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.

As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.

Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.

And rather ironic considering the card that Eldritch Strike first appeared on was bundled with a tiefling warlock.