Betrayal and DCI

I know it's a pretty unlikely scenario (though made more likely with GMLS), but after losing two high-value figures to Betrayal the other night I was wondering...

If a match gets to the point where one side has no figures remaining, but--due to betrayal of one or more high-value figures and/or a lead in gambit--has a lead of over 55 points, would the player with no figures left be considered the winner of the match?

My understanding is that they would be the winner, as the most additional points the opponent can obtain is 55 points from gambit before the game ends by the '10 turns' rule (current round, plus 10 rounds of no saves/attacks).

I suppose a similar situation would be possible using the Deathwatch figure from Jedi Academy.
Right now, the only victory conditions in the DCI floor rules are victory points. So, if I understand your scenario correctly, the person who had a 55 victory point lead but lost the remainder of their squad through betrayal at the end of a round would be victorious because, according to section 616:

End-of-Match Procedure
A match ends when:
1. a player meets the victory condition, or
2. the match time limit runs out, or
3. no side takes damage, makes an attack roll, or makes a saving throw for 10 complete rounds.

At the end of 10 additional rounds the opponent could, at best, score 50 points of Gambit, which would still leave them trailing by 5 victory points.

There currently is not, according to the DCI floor rules, a victory condition wherein a person wins because they defeated all of their opponents characters (though I believe that to be counter-intuitive) as there is in a standard skirmish game using the standard rulebook.
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Just for reference, here is section 622 of the DCI floor rules regarding Victory:

Victory: At the end of a round, if at least one player has scored points equal to or in excess of the format point limit (100, 150 or 200 points), the player with the most victory points wins. If both players meet this condition and have the same number of victory points, players play an additional round. The player with the most victory points at the end of the extra round wins. If the players are still have the same number of victory points, additional rounds are played until the tie is broken, or match time runs out (see Section 616).

There are two ways to score victory points:
1) Eliminate enemy models: points scored are equal to model cost
2) Occupy the map center: five points are scored each round that a player ends a round with a model within four squares of the center of the map; ignore low objects and walls when determining this area. This method of scoring points is generally referred to as "Gambit" scoring.

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Maps included: Cloud City | Crystal Caves of Ilum | Coruscant | Death Star | Echo Base | Exodus-Class Heavy Courier | Freight Transit Station | Geonosis Sith Hangar | Grand Plaza | Mos Eisley | Muun Commerce Plaza | Nelvaan Snow Fields | Rancor Pit | Rattatak Arena | Ravaged Base | Starship | Taris Undercity | Teth Monastery | The Lost Temple | Throne Room | Yavin 4 Massassi Temple
Funny. The interpretations above seem plausible. It looks like we may need to add a sentence in there to make a "wipeout" = victory the next time the rules are updated.
I cannot recall the specific details, but we have had a local game at least once where a player defeated all of the enemy pieces but still lost the game because he was behind on points when time was called. It was an odd interaction in the rules.

Seems like the "winning" player had a squad that was a couple of points under the build limit, and in the final round he killed something on the enemy squad that put him over the point build limit, enough that the opponent either couldn't make up the difference with gambit or couldn't get to gambit that round.

There is another problem posed in this situation the way the rules are written, and I didn't notice it until just now. All a player has to do is gain a more than 50-point lead and then turtle for 10 rounds to win.
There is another problem posed in this situation the way the rules are written, and I didn't notice it until just now. All a player has to do is gain a more than 50-point lead and then turtle for 10 rounds to win.

Seem like this would be very difficult though. In most cases, the trailing player could open a door with one figure, take a shot with another figure, and the 10 rounds rule would start all over again making it so they could get another 50 more points of gambit.

Door control wouldn't even be required in many cases; only when the player who was ahead was able to override ALL the doors in a room shut (then some form of door control would be a must for the trailing player).

Again, it's definitely a possibility, but it seems like it would rarely happen. But, maybe rarely is enough that it's still worth a rule.
Seem like this would be very difficult though. In most cases, the trailing player could open a door with one figure, take a shot with another figure, and the 10 rounds rule would start all over again making it so they could get another 50 more points of gambit.

There are pieces that could do it in one round. All it takes is positioning to do a Double+Twin + Accurate Shot attack on the biggest enemy character with cost >50 points, and then lock the door. If you have more than one character with Override and enough room to maneuver, it might be possible to stay mobile without ever risking your opponent closing in before the end of the 10th round.

Ugnaughts might crimp the attempt, but a lot of newer players don't have Ugnaughts. And on something like Mos Eisley, it might be possible to pick up gambit yourself, thus widening the gap while you wait for the game to end.

Before Gambit, I advocated the idea that if a character didn't attack or use an ability that replaced attack for 10 rounds, then the player who used Override the most times that game would be the loser. Players would be expected to keep track of that ability and how many times it was used in a game.
Seem like this would be very difficult though. In most cases, the trailing player could open a door with one figure, take a shot with another figure, and the 10 rounds rule would start all over again making it so they could get another 50 more points of gambit.

Door control wouldn't even be required in many cases; only when the player who was ahead was able to override ALL the doors in a room shut (then some form of door control would be a must for the trailing player).

Again, it's definitely a possibility, but it seems like it would rarely happen. But, maybe rarely is enough that it's still worth a rule.

IMAGE(http://www.atlantaswg.com/files/teth_abuse.jpg)



Leading player (red) doesn't have to worry about doors whatsoever in the situation above. Trailing player (blue) has no hope of ever attacking them once the new beveled corners rule goes into play. And there are two spots on the above map that a player can do this from.
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Maps included: Cloud City | Crystal Caves of Ilum | Coruscant | Death Star | Echo Base | Exodus-Class Heavy Courier | Freight Transit Station | Geonosis Sith Hangar | Grand Plaza | Mos Eisley | Muun Commerce Plaza | Nelvaan Snow Fields | Rancor Pit | Rattatak Arena | Ravaged Base | Starship | Taris Undercity | Teth Monastery | The Lost Temple | Throne Room | Yavin 4 Massassi Temple

IMAGE(http://www.atlantaswg.com/files/teth_abuse.jpg)



Leading player (red) doesn't have to worry about doors whatsoever in the situation above. Trailing player (blue) has no hope of ever attacking them once the new beveled corners rule goes into play. And there are two spots on the above map that a player can do this from.

I don't get what you are saying based on this diagram. Couldn't the blue player just go around?
Right side of the image is the edge of the map.
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Maps included: Cloud City | Crystal Caves of Ilum | Coruscant | Death Star | Echo Base | Exodus-Class Heavy Courier | Freight Transit Station | Geonosis Sith Hangar | Grand Plaza | Mos Eisley | Muun Commerce Plaza | Nelvaan Snow Fields | Rancor Pit | Rattatak Arena | Ravaged Base | Starship | Taris Undercity | Teth Monastery | The Lost Temple | Throne Room | Yavin 4 Massassi Temple
Right side of the image is the edge of the map.

Ah. Yeah that will be a problem.
Ah. Yeah that will be a problem.

I smell Team Campsite V.2 coming....

I hope I'm kidding.
lambalazarbanner4.png
Well it will only be a problem until early next year, I suspect.

IMAGE(http://www.atlantaswg.com/files/teth_abuse.jpg)



Leading player (red) doesn't have to worry about doors whatsoever in the situation above. Trailing player (blue) has no hope of ever attacking them once the new beveled corners rule goes into play. And there are two spots on the above map that a player can do this from.

I still just don't see what the reasoning is on taking away los across beleved corners. I think it will create more problems. I feel it should be opened up to so los is through any portion without touching the wall line instead of just the corner point. Easier to explain and actually do IMO.

Only thing I have seen in the faq is for the lines that the past artist were kinda sloppy with going past a stop point. This is something else. The artist or mapmaker intentionally drew this kinda wall and did not mean for it to go to corner.
Every move in this game is a mistake, the hope is that your opponent makes a bigger mistake when he makes his move.
I think it will create more problems. I feel it should be opened up to so los is through any portion without touching the wall line instead of just the corner point.

It already is this way.
It already is this way.

but not for long

Team-mando.gif
"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
"You can run, but you'll only die tired."
Boba Fett

It already is this way.

Yes for now but

My understanding is that there is a plan to change this so that you can only move across these beleveled corners and not draw a line a sight.(basically saying its a wall for all purposes except movement)

This is where my confusion is and what my question and statement was for.
Every move in this game is a mistake, the hope is that your opponent makes a bigger mistake when he makes his move.
I still think it would be VERY rare for this to happen given all the door control out there.

Not impossible, like I said in my original post, but VERY difficult.

Even the scenario where the figure(s) hide(s) in the corner assumes they have 4 or fewer figures (this may happen late in a game, but very rarely do I see a squad with this few figures early in the game).

A more likely scenario is that someone gets ahead by 11 (or however many) points late in a game and then runs and hides knowing there isn't time for two (or however many) more rounds. I think this definitely happens from time to time. But, going 10 rounds without an attack or save seems very unlikely.

I, at least, would not want to rely on this strategy at GenCon.

On a semi-related note, not being able to attack through two beveled corners DOES make it more possible to run and hide late in the game. So, I hope changing this rule does not have such a drastic unintended consequence. I still think such attacks should be allowed (especially for DUEL beveled corners)... Even via the LOS guide it seems to me that the diagonal/corner is clear which means an attack should be possible.
I still think it would be VERY rare for this to happen given all the door control out there.

I see this statement a lot and I think it's important to keep in mind that people who have been playing since CotF have door control. What was the last piece made with Satchel Charge? Anyone know?

It was Storm Commando, in a set that came out over 2 years ago!

I watched a game yesterday where a fairly new player who didn't have any Ugs got double-locked by new Lobot and new R2 to his defeat. He was cool about it, and the guy who did it was apologetic, but it just came down to the fact that he was playing Republic without Satchel Charge. (He had a Scorch but took it out for whatever reason.)

Anyway, the point is that door control, or anti-door control, is not so prevalent as it has been made out to be. Ugnaught Demolitionists, the best option for door removal and the ONLY option for some factions, are three years old. When they are reprinted, then I will agree completely with the above statement.
Anyway, the point is that door control, or anti-door control, is not so prevalent as it has been made out to be. Ugnaught Demolitionists, the best option for door removal and the ONLY option for some factions, are three years old. When they are reprinted, then I will agree completely with the above statement.

That's something I was saying when it was being discussed whether to make Teth Monastery a legal map. It's the only DCI legal map where someone with force that is heavy on door control (4 figures with Override) can completely lock out an opponent starting on either side without having to pull any significant tricks or juggle doors.

It's going to be compounded as CotF starts to become scarce. The two venues that run SWM games in my area, tournament and casual, no longer stock CotF, and apparently can't get any more from their suppliers.
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