Need Clarification - Attacks

Hey gang,

 

I have a few questions that I need some answers to.

 

  • Extra attacks (not off hand attack): do they get the STR or DEX modifier added to the bonus?
  • Polearm Mastery#1: Does the back end attack get the STR modifier?
  • Polearm Mastery #2: If the player has Great Weapon fighting granted by the Fighter class does GWF still occur when a player has polearm mastery? If so, does the GWF effect only go off on the main hand attack or can it proc on the backend too?
  • Polearm Mastery #3: Does the backend attack also have reach if the main weapon has reach? We house ruled this for the moment to say no since the weapons with reach typically have the balance at the end of the weapon so it leaves far less on the backend.

Thanks for any input that can be given.

SublimeBW wrote:

Hey gang,

 

I have a few questions that I need some answers to.

 

  • Extra attacks (not off hand attack): do they get the STR or DEX modifier added to the bonus?
  • Polearm Mastery#1: Does the back end attack get the STR modifier?
  • Polearm Mastery #2: If the player has Great Weapon fighting granted by the Fighter class does GWF still occur when a player has polearm mastery? If so, does the GWF effect only go off on the main hand attack or can it proc on the backend too?
  • Polearm Mastery #3: Does the backend attack also have reach if the main weapon has reach? We house ruled this for the moment to say no since the weapons with reach typically have the balance at the end of the weapon so it leaves far less on the backend.

Thanks for any input that can be given.

EA: Yes, full damage on the extra attack.

 

 "Double weapons" where removed from last packet.  I would treat it as wielding 1 weapon in each hand.  So going by that....

 

PM1: No, this counts as an off-hand attack.

PM2: No, this treated as a 1-handed weapon (as is the primary end when used as a double weapon).

PM3: No, nothing gives the second end reach.

 

 

Of course, it needs some cleanup.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

EA: Yes, full damage on the extra attack.

 

 "Double weapons" where removed from last packet.  I would treat it as wielding 1 weapon in each hand.  So going by that....

 

PM1: No, this counts as an off-hand attack.

PM2: No, this treated as a 1-handed weapon (as is the primary end when used as a double weapon).

PM3: No, nothing gives the second end reach.

 

 

Of course, it needs some cleanup.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I am going to have one mad half-orc fighter at my table but it makes since and am glad to see that my feelings of uber OPness were correct.

attacking with a weapon that has the reach property increases your range for that attack by five feet.

SublimeBW wrote:

 

mellored wrote:

EA: Yes, full damage on the extra attack.

 

 "Double weapons" where removed from last packet.  I would treat it as wielding 1 weapon in each hand.  So going by that....

 

PM1: No, this counts as an off-hand attack.

PM2: No, this treated as a 1-handed weapon (as is the primary end when used as a double weapon).

PM3: No, nothing gives the second end reach.

 

 

Of course, it needs some cleanup.

 

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I am going to have one mad half-orc fighter at my table but it makes since and am glad to see that my feelings of uber OPness were correct.

Actually, regarding Polearm Master, it's not so simple as mellored has put it.

 

PM#1: mellored is correct, if the polearm is being used with Two Weapon Fighting; otherwise, the attacks with the "back end" are regular attacks and they get the STR Modifier. (NOTE: Polearm Master does not grant TWF, it only grants the ability to attack with either end of the polearm as a regular attack.)

 

PM#2: GWF only requires using the weapon with two hands; so, the polearm is not treated as a 1-handed weapon, regardless of which end is being used (unless, as mellored implies, using it with TWF - i.e., gaining two attacks - applies these limitations). So, while just using either the primary end or the "back end" as a regular attack, GWF applies.

 

PM#3: While using a glaive or halberd from the opposite end would be tricky, I see no reason to not allow the Polearm Master to take advantage of the Reach property when doing so; that is one of the things a master might have learned to do.

 

I have no problem believing that someone could, relatively easily, wield a glaive from the opposite end (holding the shaft, with the blade tucked along one forearm or balanced between the forearms). I don't think that would eliminate enough of the length of a glaive to limit its use as a Reach weapon.

 

The halberd could be used in the same way; but, I believe that would take a little more experience. However, a Polearm Master should have enough experience to do so.

 

I hope this helps relieve any disappointment for your half-orc fighter.

Dualweapon is not defined.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:
Dualweapon is not defined.
Then the polearm will be treated as a 2-handed weapon, not as two 1-handed weapons, and GWF will always apply.

lawrencehoy wrote:

 

mellored wrote:
Dualweapon is not defined.

Then the polearm will be treated as a 2-handed weapon, not as two 1-handed weapons, and GWF will always apply.

Dualweapons have been treated as wielding 2x 1-handed weapons in a few packets.  As well as a most other games that i know of, (including previous editions of D&D).  So that's what i based my answer off of.

 

But since dual weapons, or secondary end is not defined in this packet, you can pretty much rule whatever you want.  (Not that there is no "may" or "can", it's "you treat it as...")

 

Anywhere from non-functional, to ultra powerful.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Even if a dual-weapon were used with Two Weapon fighting, that doesn't change the fact that it is and requires both hands to attack.  Since GWF only requires a weapon to be used two-handed, as pointed out above, it would Always apply.

The wording on all of it is very poor, but it works out in the most overpowered way possible. A PC with great weapon style, two handed style, GWM, the Polearm feat and 20 strength would make attacks as follows: 

 

1 attack with main hand for 2d10 + 10 damage, 5 miss damage.

 

Any extra attacks from class features or spells will also be made with the main hand. 

 

Off hand attack for 2d4 + 10 damage, 5 miss damage. 

 

Any critical hits, even those from the off-hand trigger a main hand free action attack. 

LupusRegalis wrote:

Even if a dual-weapon were used with Two Weapon fighting, that doesn't change the fact that it is and requires both hands to attack.  Since GWF only requires a weapon to be used two-handed, as pointed out above, it would Always apply.

Dual weapon was treated as 1 weapons in each hand.  Which is not wielding something in 2-handed.

 

Though i readily admit, i'm not using rules in the packet.  (neither is anyone else).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

SublimeBW wrote:

Hey gang,

 

I have a few questions that I need some answers to.

 

  • Extra attacks (not off hand attack): do they get the STR or DEX modifier added to the bonus?
  • Polearm Mastery#1: Does the back end attack get the STR modifier?
  • Polearm Mastery #2: If the player has Great Weapon fighting granted by the Fighter class does GWF still occur when a player has polearm mastery? If so, does the GWF effect only go off on the main hand attack or can it proc on the backend too?
  • Polearm Mastery #3: Does the backend attack also have reach if the main weapon has reach? We house ruled this for the moment to say no since the weapons with reach typically have the balance at the end of the weapon so it leaves far less on the backend.

Thanks for any input that can be given.

As you can probably gather from the other comments, the water's pretty muddy on Polearm Mastery.  But, if you are the DM, then whatever you decide goes.

 

Personally, regardless of how it works, I really don't like that the Polearm Mastery feat turns polearms into double-weapons.  A feat called Polearm Mastery shouldn't change the basic function of polearms.  It should make me better at using a polearm as a polearm, not allow me to use a polearm as a bo-staff.  I wish WotC would let a "Double-Weapon Mastery" feat handle that, and leave Polearm Mastery to model more traditional polearm fighting.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

souldoubt wrote:

 

SublimeBW wrote:

Hey gang,

 

I have a few questions that I need some answers to.

 

  • Extra attacks (not off hand attack): do they get the STR or DEX modifier added to the bonus?
  • Polearm Mastery#1: Does the back end attack get the STR modifier?
  • Polearm Mastery #2: If the player has Great Weapon fighting granted by the Fighter class does GWF still occur when a player has polearm mastery? If so, does the GWF effect only go off on the main hand attack or can it proc on the backend too?
  • Polearm Mastery #3: Does the backend attack also have reach if the main weapon has reach? We house ruled this for the moment to say no since the weapons with reach typically have the balance at the end of the weapon so it leaves far less on the backend.

Thanks for any input that can be given.

 

As you can probably gather from the other comments, the water's pretty muddy on Polearm Mastery.  But, if you are the DM, then whatever you decide goes.

 

Personally, regardless of how it works, I really don't like that the Polearm Mastery feat turns polearms into double-weapons.  A feat called Polearm Mastery shouldn't change the basic function of polearms.  It should make me better at using a polearm as a polearm, not allow me to use a polearm as a bo-staff.  I wish WotC would let a "Double-Weapon Mastery" feat handle that, and leave Polearm Mastery to model more traditional polearm fighting.

 

I think the whole "turn a weapon into a double weapon to get an extra attack" thing is dumb no matter how you look at it. Polearm mastery should really make a Polearm do what they already do, but better. Perhaps allow you to make an AO when someone leaves your reach, or allow you to not treat them as "unwieldy". Double weapons in general are one of the worst ideas in D&D and are always poorly implemented. 

Imsolost wrote:

 

souldoubt wrote:

 

SublimeBW wrote:

Hey gang,

 

I have a few questions that I need some answers to.

 

  • Extra attacks (not off hand attack): do they get the STR or DEX modifier added to the bonus?
  • Polearm Mastery#1: Does the back end attack get the STR modifier?
  • Polearm Mastery #2: If the player has Great Weapon fighting granted by the Fighter class does GWF still occur when a player has polearm mastery? If so, does the GWF effect only go off on the main hand attack or can it proc on the backend too?
  • Polearm Mastery #3: Does the backend attack also have reach if the main weapon has reach? We house ruled this for the moment to say no since the weapons with reach typically have the balance at the end of the weapon so it leaves far less on the backend.

Thanks for any input that can be given.

 

As you can probably gather from the other comments, the water's pretty muddy on Polearm Mastery.  But, if you are the DM, then whatever you decide goes.

 

Personally, regardless of how it works, I really don't like that the Polearm Mastery feat turns polearms into double-weapons.  A feat called Polearm Mastery shouldn't change the basic function of polearms.  It should make me better at using a polearm as a polearm, not allow me to use a polearm as a bo-staff.  I wish WotC would let a "Double-Weapon Mastery" feat handle that, and leave Polearm Mastery to model more traditional polearm fighting.

 

 

I think the whole "turn a weapon into a double weapon to get an extra attack" thing is dumb no matter how you look at it. Polearm mastery should really make a Polearm do what they already do, but better. Perhaps allow you to make an AO when someone leaves your reach, or allow you to not treat them as "unwieldy". Double weapons in general are one of the worst ideas in D&D and are always poorly implemented. 

I agree, but I know there are those out there who like the double-weapon schtick, so that's why I said put that stuff in its own feat, and let Polearm Mastery cater to those of use who want a cool polearm feat but don't necessarily want our character/game mucked up with double-weapon nonsense.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

mellored wrote:
Dual weapon was treated as 1 weapons in each hand.  Which is not wielding something in 2-handed.

 

Though i readily admit, i'm not using rules in the packet.  (neither is anyone else).

Actually, I was using the rules in the packet (the latest one).

Imsolost wrote:
I think the whole "turn a weapon into a double weapon to get an extra attack" thing is dumb no matter how you look at it. Polearm mastery should really make a Polearm do what they already do, but better. Perhaps allow you to make an AO when someone leaves your reach, or allow you to not treat them as "unwieldy". Double weapons in general are one of the worst ideas in D&D and are always poorly implemented.
The Polearm Master feat does not provide an extra attack; that is one of the things I've been trying to make clear. It only allows the master to use the opposite end as a {edit: secondary} attack.

 

Upon going back through the packets to find the latest Double Weapon rules (to the June packet), the rules state that:

  1. Double weapons are treated as a different light weapon in each hand when wielded with both hands, and
  2. The ssecondary end is only used when attacking with both ends.

Even though the weapon is treated as two light weapons, you are still wielding it with both hands (2-handed); so, GWF still applies.

 

Also, you have to be using TWF to even be able to use the secondary end (and this is where the double weapon rules will need adjusted, in my opinion - why can't I just use the secondary end as a regular attack, especially as a non-lethal alternative?). Which is how it works in the latest packet, since there are no double weapon rules.

 

EDIT: You can make an opportunity attack anytime someone leaves your reach, it is the only standard way to make an OA. Polearm Master does provide additioanl OAs, when someone enters your reach. I like your idea about ignoring the "unwieldy" trait though, if it actually becomes a weapon trait.

lawrencehoy wrote:

Upon going back through the packets to find the latest Double Weapon rules (to the June packet), the rules state that:

  1. Double weapons are treated as a different light weapon in each hand when wielded with both hands, and
  2. The ssecondary end is only used when attacking with both ends.

Even though the weapon is treated as two light weapons, you are still wielding it with both hands (2-handed); so, GWF still applies.

Treated as "different weapon in each hand", meaning 1 light weapon in each hand, meaning no GWF.

 

 

Though, it's a moot point, i agree it needs changed (as it's not even in this packet), and that adding a 1d4 off-hand is not the greatest for the feat.  

And i also like the unwiledly idea better as well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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