Triggering Heroic

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If a spell says "each of up to ~ creatures," like on triton tactics, can you target the same heroic creature twice to trigger the ability twice?  Or does the spell need to have multiple instances like on hidden strings or seeds of strength?

Also, can you trigger heroic if the target is "illegal"? Like targeting Agent of the fates with my own doom blade? (I ask because I believe it will work even if the spell if countered, because it triggers upon casting, right?)

Thanks!!

1. No, with Triton tactics or hidden strings you can not target the same creature multiple times.  You can with Seeds of Strenght but it will not trigger heroic muntiple times.

 

2. No, when you cast a spell you must choose legal targets.

MTG Rules Advisor

So, is it at all possible for a single spell to be able to trigger heroic multiple times?  Like if you entwined Dream's Grip?  Tap it, then untap it with the same spell?  Since it does not say "another" I assume that is legal, plus it says target twice.

 

Thanks for your help so far!

The trigger condition for heroic is "whenever this is targeted by a spell..." it can only trigger once per spell at most, it doesn't care how many times a spell targets it.

MTG Rules Advisor

No, because Heroic's trigger condition isn't the creature becoming a target, it's the spell that targets the creature being cast. It's not possible for a single spell to be cast twice.

K-Mogg wrote:

The trigger condition for heroic is "whenever this is targeted by a spell..." it can only trigger once per spell at most, it doesn't care how many times a spell targets it.

Actually, the trigger condition for heroic abilities is "Whenever you cast a spell that targets..."

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

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Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

I personally think that as worded the trigger should be able to trigger multiple times from the single casting of a spell that targets it multiple times.
If it was intended to only trigger once, I believe it should have been written "Whenever you cast a spell that targets [THIS] one or more times, [EFFECT]" similar to Pyrewild Shaman

However, the Rules Team has said that a single spell will only trigger it once regardless of the number of times it targets a given creature with a heroic trigger.



 

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2goth4U wrote:

I personally think that as worded the trigger should be able to trigger multiple times from the single casting of a spell that targets it multiple times.
If it was intended to only trigger once, I believe it should have been written "Whenever you cast a spell that targets [THIS] one or more times, [EFFECT]"

However, the Rules Team has said that a single spell will only trigger it once regardless of the number of times it targets a given creature with a heroic trigger.

I strongly disagree. "You cast a spell that targets this" is very clearly only one event no matter if that spell targets the creature once or multiple times. The action that's the trigger condition is marked by the verb 'cast', not the verb 'target'. I think adding "one or more times" would have been superfluous and perhaps even more confusing, as people would have wondered why that's there.
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MadMageQc wrote:

 

2goth4U wrote:

I personally think that as worded the trigger should be able to trigger multiple times from the single casting of a spell that targets it multiple times.
If it was intended to only trigger once, I believe it should have been written "Whenever you cast a spell that targets [THIS] one or more times, [EFFECT]"

However, the Rules Team has said that a single spell will only trigger it once regardless of the number of times it targets a given creature with a heroic trigger.

I strongly disagree. "You cast a spell that targets this" is very clearly only one event no matter if that spell targets the creature once or multiple times. The action that's the trigger condition is marked by the verb 'cast', not the verb 'target'. I think adding "one or more times" would have been superfluous and perhaps even more confusing, as people would have wondered why that's there.

The fact that it's one event is irrelevant. 603.2c clearly states that a triggered ability can trigger multiple times for one event if that event contains multiple occurences of the trigger condition.

This situation parallels the trigger on Pyrewild Shaman which triggers only once provided at least one creature deals combat damage to a player. If it didn't stipulate "one or more" then it would trigger mutiple times because the event contains multiple occurences of creatures dealing combat damage to a player.

In the heroic triggers, they wait for an event of a spell being cast that targets this creature. It's ambiguous whether it cares how many times it becomes targeted in that event and with Seeds of Strength that event would contain three occurences of it becoming targeted. the intended functionality is that it only triggers once and adding that provision (like was done with Pyrewild Shaman) removes the ambiguity.

However, putting it in there might cause more confusion, given that it's only ambiguous in corner cases and also adds three more words to an already constrained textbox so I can see why they left it as is.

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2goth4U wrote:
In the heroic triggers, they wait for an event of a spell being cast that targets this creature.

Regardless of how many times the spell in question targets, it's still only cast once.

The templating team tries to reserve "one or more" wordings for situations where the extra text affects how the card functions.

Del Laugel

Editing manager, Magic TCG

puzzledmint wrote:
Regardless of how many times the spell in question targets, it's still only cast once.

and this proves what exactly?

Hellrider triggers on creatures attacking ie. an event of declaration of attackers, regardless of how many creatures attack, they still only attack once, yet Hellrider triggers for each one whereas Pyrewild Shaman only triggers once.

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2goth4U wrote:

 

MadMageQc wrote:

 

2goth4U wrote:

I personally think that as worded the trigger should be able to trigger multiple times from the single casting of a spell that targets it multiple times.
If it was intended to only trigger once, I believe it should have been written "Whenever you cast a spell that targets [THIS] one or more times, [EFFECT]"

However, the Rules Team has said that a single spell will only trigger it once regardless of the number of times it targets a given creature with a heroic trigger.

I strongly disagree. "You cast a spell that targets this" is very clearly only one event no matter if that spell targets the creature once or multiple times. The action that's the trigger condition is marked by the verb 'cast', not the verb 'target'. I think adding "one or more times" would have been superfluous and perhaps even more confusing, as people would have wondered why that's there.

The fact that it's one event is irrelevant. 603.2c clearly states that a triggered ability can trigger multiple times for one event if that event contains multiple occurences of the trigger condition.

This situation parallels the trigger on Pyrewild Shaman which triggers only once provided at least one creature deals combat damage to a player. If it didn't stipulate "one or more" then it would trigger mutiple times because the event contains multiple occurences of creatures dealing combat damage to a player.

In the heroic triggers, they wait for an event of a spell being cast that targets this creature. It's ambiguous whether it cares how many times it becomes targeted in that event and with Seeds of Strength that event would contain three occurences of it becoming targeted. the intended functionality is that it only triggers once and adding that provision (like was done with Pyrewild Shaman) removes the ambiguity.

However, putting it in there might cause more confusion, given that it's only ambiguous in corner cases and also adds three more words to an already constrained textbox so I can see why they left it as is.

Forget about the 'event' part of my post and just focus on the second sentence then, it's what matters. Pyrewild Shaman clearly needs the 'one or more' clause to prevent the ability from triggering multiple times in the same combat damage step. It's not the case for the Heroic triggers. The syntax is not ambiguous; by its english meaning, the phrase states that the trigger condition is that a spell about which the fact that it targets the creature is true, is cast. It's really just english, but it's a fact that one's perfectly apt brain can easily misinterpret one's own mother tongue. It's very analogous to Coat of Arms and Precursor Golem, for which we regularly get the same questions on these forums, mostly from native english speakers.
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Yes, but when the game asks "was a spell cast that targets Hoplite?" the answer as written should come back "yes, yes, yes" once for each instance of target.

Ruleswise, 114.8c specifically clarifies the issue with Precursor Golem by saying "If that number is one (even if the spell or ability targets that object or player multiple times)"

This really is more of a parallel with Lavacore Elemental vs Pyrewild Shaman

You acknowledge that adding the phrase "one or more" to Pyrewild Shaman specifically limits it to one trigger, otherwise it would trigger for each one like Lavacore Elemental does, right?

If Heroic triggers did actually specify that they trigger on spells cast that target it "one or more times", you agree that it would only trigger once, correct?

Yet, you deny that as written the Heroic trigger shouldn't trigger multiple times if it is targeted from a spell that targets it with multiples instances of target.

To me, that's illogical.

​I know how Wizards wants it to work so I accept that and I can even accept reasons for why they worded it the way they did, but I still believe the wording within the framework of the rules should let it trigger multiple times and as such either the Oracle text should be corrected or the rules should be corrected.

However, that is a topic for another forum and as such we should take it there.

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The trigger condition is "you cast a spell that targets Hoplite" and it is only met once. The parralel we make with Coat of Arms is this : Coat of Arms counts creatures, not types; Hoplite triggers on a spell targeting it being cast, not on becoming a target.

Yes, but when the game asks "was a spell cast that targets Hoplite?" the answer as written should come back "yes, yes, yes" once for each instance of target.

No, it should come back as yes, period. That's where your logic fails. A yes/no question has one answer­, not three. Was a spell cast that targets Hoplite? Yes or no? The answer is yes.

You acknowledge that adding the phrase "one or more" to Pyrewild Shaman specifically limits it to one trigger, otherwise it would trigger for each one like Hellrider does, right?
If we replace "one or more creatures" by "a creature", ya, sure. The trigger condition would then be met multiple times, because multiple creatures deal damage, resulting in multiple triggers. Hellrider "counts creatures". Yes, Heroic has a closer wording to Hellrider's than to Pyrewild Shaman's, but that doesn't get your point anywhere, because that's not what this is about. Again, what Heroic "counts" is spells, not the number of times the creature is targeted.

If Heroic triggers did actually specify that they trigger on spells cast that target it "one or more times", you agree that it would only trigger once, correct?
Certainly, but I also know that it would only trigger once without that phrase. What we're debating here is whether that phrase is necessary or useful as opposed to superfluous and more confusion-inducing than waht they went with.

​I know how Wizards wants it to work so I accept that and I can even accept reasons for why they worded it the way they did, but I still believe the wording within the framework of the rules should let it trigger multiple times and as such either the Oracle text should be corrected or the rules should be corrected.
No, with all respect (and I do respect you a lot as a fellow judge and advisor), it's not a case of them being wrong, it's really just a case of you not getting it. I'm keeping up this conversation because I just want you to get it.

However, that is a topic for another forum and as such we should take it there.

True; I respond here because you didn't yet post on Rules Theory and Templating, and I wanted to do it while the topic was still hot and fresh in mind, refuting your arguments directly. If you still disagree, please do post on Rules Theory and Templating, I think I've said all that need to be said. Others will take it from here if need be.

 

Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A

Can this topic move to Rules Theory and Templating if anyone feels that further debate is necessary?

The original poster's questions have been asked and answered.

Theros FAQ wrote:

New Ability Word: Heroic

 

On the epic world of Theros, exceptional acts of heroism are sometimes required to survive. Heroic is an ability word that appears in italics at the beginning of abilities that trigger whenever you cast a spell that targets the creature with the heroic ability. (An ability word has no rules meaning.)

 

Setessan Battle Priest

{1}{W}

Creature — Human Cleric

1/3

Heroic — Whenever you cast a spell that targets Setessan Battle Priest, you gain 2 life.

 

* Heroic abilities will resolve before the spell that caused them to trigger.

 

* Heroic abilities will trigger only once per spell, even if that spell targets the creature with the heroic ability multiple times.

 

* Heroic abilities won’t trigger when a copy of a spell is created on the stack or when a spell’s targets are changed to include a creature with a heroic ability.

Del Laugel

Editing manager, Magic TCG