Why use a Greatsword or Maul?

I can't see why I'd ever choose a Greatsword or Maul over a different "Heavy" weapon right now. They have a Higher minimum, and will roll average more often... Is rolling 7 damage more often really worth only getting +1d6 on a crit? At least the other Heavy weapons that don't crit well let us do other things like have reach or knock people down with every attack.
Grifford is right here. D&D has always used "die" and "dice" literally. There is no concept of a 2d6 abstract die. 2d6 is plural, and if they mean plural they say plural. [W] is an entirely different designation that has nothing to do with the plurality of the words and isn't used in Next.
 not a word has been changed, meaning they meant to update them but forgot,



It means no such thing.

which would serve only to further reinforce my point



In no way does the text corroborate your opinion.

(in addition to the twitter feed confirming my point).



The one about greatswords having the "critical" quality and getting 4d6 on crits? So? It's a weapon property, not the rule about crits. Crits, as a rule, add one damage die on a crit. So a dragon's bite is 4d12, or 5d12 on a crit. It wouldn't do 8d12 because the greatsword has a weapon property that bumps its crit damage. 

The extra die is the RULE. The critical weapon property is the EXCEPTION.

you still haven't addressed the fact that the example provided cannot happen without deadly strike. 



Deadly Strike isn't even a mechanic anymore. I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up. 




For one thing, the Great Sword doesn't have the Critical quality.  Sw it is a rule about crits in general.

He brought up Deadly Strike because the example in the packet is written such that it cannot be without Deadly Strike. 
 not a word has been changed, meaning they meant to update them but forgot,



It means no such thing.

which would serve only to further reinforce my point



In no way does the text corroborate your opinion.

(in addition to the twitter feed confirming my point).



The one about greatswords having the "critical" quality and getting 4d6 on crits? So? It's a weapon property, not the rule about crits. Crits, as a rule, add one damage die on a crit. So a dragon's bite is 4d12, or 5d12 on a crit. It wouldn't do 8d12 because the greatsword has a weapon property that bumps its crit damage. 

The extra die is the RULE. The critical weapon property is the EXCEPTION.

you still haven't addressed the fact that the example provided cannot happen without deadly strike. 



Deadly Strike isn't even a mechanic anymore. I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up. 



1) WotC claimed they clarified critical hit rules, but the rules are exactly the same.  Therefore they either meant to change the critical hit rules and didn't actually do so, or they didn't intend to change the Critical Hit rules, but put it in there anyway (for some reason).  Assuming the designers simply made a mistake (such as the monk hp error), one must consider what part of the critical hit rules they intended to clarify.  There are two parts to the critical hit rules in the How to Play pdf, how much damage a critical hit should do (as described by the example you quoted), and what to do in the event that an attack has two different damage dice (such as with a paladin's Divine Favor spell).  Now, nothing has changed between the two packets to necessitate a change in the second part of the rules, but the introduction of weapons that do 2d6 on a hit (none of which are consistent with the example), as well as the removal of Deadly strike (which is consistent with the example), does necessitate the crlarification of the critical hit rules, as evidenced by this thread. 

2) The one where Mike Mearls said that a greatsword is not supposed to do 3d6 damage on a crit.  

3)  I specificaly said that i had no idea what the base damage die was for said 4d12 dragon attack.  Though looking over all the different attacks for all the different dragons, I would say that a level 13 red dragon doing 8d12 + 7 on a crit (which averages out to only about 59 damage before reduction) is appropriate to the adventurers that it would likely face.  5d12+7 only averages out to about 40 damage.

4) You're right, Deadly Strike isn't a mechanic anymore, but it was a mechanic when the example you quoted was introduced, and is also an integral part of said example, seeing as how there currently no way for a player to deal 2d6+2 Piercing Damage with a regular attack, where "regular attack" is defined as an attack made, with a weapon, that does not have additional damage from a class feature, such as sneak attack, or magical effect, such as a spell or enchantment.  Deadly Strike, on the other hand, allowed a 1d6 piercing weapon to do 2d6 piercing damage, which is what the example is referring to.

Grifford is right here. D&D has always used "die" and "dice" literally. There is no concept of a 2d6 abstract die. 2d6 is plural, and if they mean plural they say plural. [W] is an entirely different designation that has nothing to do with the plurality of the words and isn't used in Next.


Actually, there is a precedent in Next (and all WotC DnD) for 2d6 to be a considered a single damage die, specifically the old Dwarven Weapon Training feature from earlier packets which, for the appropiate weapons, "the weapon damage die for that weapon increases by one step: from d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12, and d12 to 2d6."  Also the hill dwarve's Dwarven Toughness feature worked the same way.  4e had 2d6 as a single damage die on mauls and mordenkrads, and in 3.5 you rolled 4d6 when you crit with a greatsword.  So there is a precedent for this sort of thing.


"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

Oh god can you stop arguing about this? We'll know the answer in the next packet.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
No, let them go. Maybe someone at WotC will notice and realize that, yes, they need to state things more clearly.
Grifford is right here. D&D has always used "die" and "dice" literally. There is no concept of a 2d6 abstract die. 2d6 is plural, and if they mean plural they say plural. [W] is an entirely different designation that has nothing to do with the plurality of the words and isn't used in Next.


Actually, there is a precedent in Next (and all WotC DnD) for 2d6 to be a considered a single damage die, specifically the old Dwarven Weapon Training feature from earlier packets which, for the appropiate weapons, "the weapon damage die for that weapon increases by one step: from d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12, and d12 to 2d6."  Also the hill dwarve's Dwarven Toughness feature worked the same way.  4e had 2d6 as a single damage die on mauls and mordenkrads, and in 3.5 you rolled 4d6 when you crit with a greatsword.  So there is a precedent for this sort of thing.

Fair enough. I'll accept the "d12 to 2d6" as a precedent.

I think you guys are forgetting few things.


First of all, THIS IS NOT AN MMO!! it`s a ROLE PLAYING GAME! you don't play this to get the highest dmg/best gear (and if you do, you are playing the wrong game)


Secondly you guys forget that the DM has the final say. if you have a problem with a rule, talk with your current DM and take his word as a final decision.


Furthermore, you guys seem to be forgetting it`s a playtest faze, a beta, if you will. which means stuff will change a lot so WotC can find out the best solution.


Also, you are not forced to play with the newest playtest, you can stick the previous one, or the one before that, or any other edition of D&D.


Next, HOMEBREWING FTW! if there is a rule that is particularly unclear, bring it up with your group before your next game, present what is stated in the playtest and counter it with your proposition (in this case being a 2d6 weapon doing 4d6 dmg on a crit) and take a vote. whatever you will come out with will be something that a whole group agreed on and will make you guys feel even better.


As for myself I play a barbarian using a great sword. if the damage stated next to it says 2d6, then i treat is as "1 dice" even thought it`s physically 2, therefore if a critical hit adds one more weapon damage dice to the attack, then add the 2d6, that seams rather simple to me.

And to answer the question in the topic (why use a Greatsword or a Maul): Because it`s a Role Playing Game where become a person with it`s won background, training, preferations etc. Say your character uses a greatsword, it`s probably not only because it had 1d12 dmg earlier, but rather due to the way he was brought up, trained or anything else you can think of. Remeber, everything in the game should be argumented, not just "oh, i saw in the table this one had the highest dmg so i took it." Or at least that`s my opinion on the topic 


I think you guys are forgetting few things.


First of all, THIS IS NOT AN MMO!! it`s a ROLE PLAYING GAME! you don't play this to get the highest dmg/best gear (and if you do, you are playing the wrong game)


Secondly you guys forget that the DM has the final say. if you have a problem with a rule, talk with your current DM and take his word as a final decision.


Furthermore, you guys seem to be forgetting it`s a playtest faze, a beta, if you will. which means stuff will change a lot so WotC can find out the best solution.


Also, you are not forced to play with the newest playtest, you can stick the previous one, or the one before that, or any other edition of D&D.


Next, HOMEBREWING FTW! if there is a rule that is particularly unclear, bring it up with your group before your next game, present what is stated in the playtest and counter it with your proposition (in this case being a 2d6 weapon doing 4d6 dmg on a crit) and take a vote. whatever you will come out with will be something that a whole group agreed on and will make you guys feel even better.


As for myself I play a barbarian using a great sword. if the damage stated next to it says 2d6, then i treat is as "1 dice" even thought it`s physically 2, therefore if a critical hit adds one more weapon damage dice to the attack, then add the 2d6, that seams rather simple to me.

And to answer the question in the topic (why use a Greatsword or a Maul): Because it`s a Role Playing Game where become a person with it`s won background, training, preferations etc. Say your character uses a greatsword, it`s probably not only because it had 1d12 dmg earlier, but rather due to the way he was brought up, trained or anything else you can think of. Remeber, everything in the game should be argumented, not just "oh, i saw in the table this one had the highest dmg so i took it." Or at least that`s my opinion on the topic 





  1. I like to get the best damage I can, who are you to tell me I am playing the game wrong?

  2. The DM has final say but we are talking about the rules here, you know the thing the whole group is supposed to use.  The thing we are playtesting.  The rules are there for a reason or we are playing a free form mess.

  3. But we want to play the current playtest, so you know we can playtest it and give feedback so they can make changes.  Kinda the whole point of all of this.

  4. Homebrewing during a playtest doesn't realy help make for a better game you know.

  5. The big one, a character much like a player will want to pick the most effective weapon he can.  There is a reason real world battles were not fought with sausages.  

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

FFS I wish WotC folks would occasionally chime in on these forums, just to say, "Yeah, we know this is a problem and will eventually fix it. You can stop arguing now."
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Didn't Mike Mearls clarify on Twitter that the crit rules not working with 2d6 weapons was an oversight like... days ago?
FFS I wish WotC folks would occasionally chime in on these forums, just to say, "Yeah, we know this is a problem and will eventually fix it. You can stop arguing now."



Agreed.