What If Off Hand Attacks takes a Move Action

I've seen several threads of players being confused by the "deadly strike only works once per turn" mechanic, and I've seen even more discussion and number crunching about the damage balance between two handed weapons and two weapon fighting. 

So why don't we try something new?

Only allow Off Hand Melee Attacks(the weapon of your choice when dual wielding) when the player does not move.   This means the mechanic would work similarly to a full attack action in 3.x.  

We would have 3 very distinct styles of melee combat


  • Shield - Increases Defense, normal damage on attacks.

  • Two-Handed - Increases on pure damage, sacrifice defense.

  • Duel Weapon - Big damage increase when not moving, normal damage when moving, sacrifice defense.


We can also get rid of the confusing limitations on Deadly Strike and other abilities that are only limited by Duel Wielding as discussed here.  This would let that off hand attack get your ability modifier and bonus damage dice, so it works within the mechanics of the game instead of outside them.

All of the current feats would still work with this change as well.


Proposed new wording under Two-Weapon Fighting in the How To Play Document:
Two Weapon Fighting.  When you wield two light melee weapons at the same time, you can use your action to make an attack with each weapon if you do not move before or after the attacks.  


 
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
Quick action perhaps.


IMO:

Standard
Move
Reaction

Quick - anything that adds to a action attack is a quick action.  Expertise dice, cleave, smite, ki, ect...  This also covers concentration.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Would there be a limit on the number of quick action you can take on your turn? 

And I imagine a swift spell would count that way too?
I wouldn't do a quick action.   

The idea is that the extra attack happens in place of a movement, not in addition to one.   More specifically when a character is attacking with multiple weapons they cannot move during their turn.


This would also help speed up the game.    Instead of fiddling with movements, and then rolling dice, and then deciding which attacks get what bonuses;  the player just makes his two attacks and both would get the same bonuses.

It's quick, clean, and fits perfectly into the rules without having to expand or write different actions. 
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
I should be clear with the purpose of this thread.   I see some reoccuring problem with 2 weapon fighting.   

  1. Powers & Abilities have taken on complicated 'once per turn' rules to compensate for the damage output of 2 weapon fighting.

  2. 2 weapon fighting is still winning out in damage when compared to other types of melee combat.

  3. By trying to make this style of combat simple, the designers have made other parts of the game more complicated.


By re-thinking 2 weapon fighting it at the core we can fix the other issues.   Forcing a player to sacrifice movement to attack with both weapons grants these advantages.

  1. Powers and abilities no longer have to have 'once per turn' rules, which effects almost every class and make the game much easier to teach & understand.

  2. 2 weapon fighting will embrace that it is the highest damage, when used to it's full potential

  3. A new type of strategy for melee combat emerges, trying to get into position to get off the multiple attacks, but balancing that with the lower defense

  4. It makes the style of combat very different from Powers that grant additional attacks, adding even more diversity to melee combat



I would like to see 2 weapon fighting changed in the best way possible to make it fun, balanced, and cool.   I think this rule is simple to understand, much more balanced, and would be tons of fun to play.

Some mechanics that would have some nice synergy with this kind of mechanic

  1. Taunt - You call over an enemy so that on your next turn you can unleash both attacks on the unit.

  2. Ranger 'never surprised' - You use your surprise rounds to set up your position next to or near the enemy units, allowing you to take both attacks 


Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
Would there be a limit on the number of quick action you can take on your turn? 

And I imagine a swift spell would count that way too?

Yes, that's the point.

Otherwise, a paladin/monk/fighter could add smite/ki/expertice/buffspell all on the same attack.  Dumping 50+ damage out at level 3.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't think it would be much fun if TWF took your move action. Moving is fun.

Some kind of limited quick action would be better, but it would be a bummer if you couldn't use Deadly Strike and other boosters with TWF.

I guess I don't see it being a big problem to have abilities say 'once per turn' all the time.
'once per turn' affects other Fighter class features such as Multiattack. It is an appropriate descriptor.

I am opposed to quick actions. If a feature or spell takes no action then it can state that in its description. The rules allow for opening doors and drawing weapons, just be reasonable. Adding another layer of rules is unnecessary.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I agree with jaelis. TWF would not be fun if you lost your move to use it. It's hard enough to get around the battlefield as is because of Opportunity attacks. 

I think they could just add a feat for 2-Handed weapons that balances the damage if people are noticing more damage to TWF at higher levels.
Personally as a rogue I have been reduced to being an archer because I die in one attack at level 5.

I can see how TWF does more damage at higher levels with both Dual Wielding and Two-Weapon Strike. 
I think the real imbalance that people are noticing comes when you factor in Magical Weapons that are too strong though.
Depending on your DM you could be getting high +'s on you weapons. Lets do a comparison.

2 Handed. 
1d12 (6.5avg)*5 deadly strike + 5 Str + 3 (From +3 Magic Weapon) = 45.5 DMG

TWF
1d8 (4.5avg)*5 deadly strike + 1d6 (3.5avg) + 5st + 5str + 3 (From +3 Magic Weapon) + 3 (From +3 Magic Weapon) = 42

Unless I did my math wrong or left something out TWF is not as strong as 2 Handed until you break the +5 Magic Weapon Barrier which in DnD Next is not even intended I don't think. (Not to mention you have to use 2 feats just to get close)
 
My players consistently want MORE movement on the battlefield, not less. I'd like to incentivize movement, not incentivize sitting and swinging.

As long as the weapons are limited (i.e. light d6 weapons) then two separate rolls to hit feel appropriate. At most i would say it costs your reaction, but not Move. Notice that Next doesn't call it a Move Action and nowhere else is it traded for another action. This is to help the flow of the game and encourage imaginative actions and descriptions. The game feels better for it.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.


As long as the weapons are limited (i.e. light d6 weapons) then two separate rolls to hit feel appropriate. At most i would say it costs your reaction, but not Move. Notice that Next doesn't call it a Move Action and nowhere else is it traded for another action. This is to help the flow of the game and encourage imaginative actions and descriptions. The game feels better for it.




What are the rules? The way I read the rules you have to roll an attack roll for each weapon with TWF it just counts as an "action" to use TWF, so you can't Multiattack (skirmisher or whirlwind) and also use TWF at the same time which is sad because 2 Handed demolishes TWF players damage when you factor in the use of Multiattack (Skirmisher or Whirlwind).

As long as the weapons are limited (i.e. light d6 weapons) then two separate rolls to hit feel appropriate. At most i would say it costs your reaction, but not Move. Notice that Next doesn't call it a Move Action and nowhere else is it traded for another action. This is to help the flow of the game and encourage imaginative actions and descriptions. The game feels better for it.




What are the rules? The way I read the rules you have to roll an attack roll for each weapon with TWF it just counts as an "action" to use TWF, so you can't Multiattack (skirmisher or whirlwind) and also use TWF at the same time which is sad because 2 Handed demolishes TWF players damage when you factor in the use of Multiattack (Skirmisher or Whirlwind).

I believe you can Multiattack with the primary weapon AND get an additional attack with the offhand weapon. ask for clarification on the "ask a simple question" forum.

As far as damage output between TWF and THF, keep in mind that a TWF can attack two separate targets while the THF only hit one. This versitility makes up for the difference in damage...  

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I believe you can Multiattack with the primary weapon AND get an additional attack with the offhand weapon. ask for clarification on the "ask a simple question" forum.


No, multiattacking is an action and TWFing is a different action. You can't combine them. I think it would be nice if you could though.


As far as damage output between TWF and THF, keep in mind that a TWF can attack two separate targets while the THF only hit one. This versitility makes up for the difference in damage...  


I think this is all a red herring anyway. The only time you should be multi-attacking is when you are fighting minions (or virtual minions) who you can drop in one hit anyway. So then the amount of damage you do is pretty much irrelevant, it's just the number of attacks you can make.
I am going to ask the other forum for an official response. as a DM I would allow for it. I will post on here when they respond...

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I am going to ask the other forum for an official response. as a DM I would allow for it. I will post on here when they respond...


 Can you also ask them if you can use TWF on the extra Attack you get from the Cleave Feat -- like if I drop an enemy to 0 can I attack another guy next to me with my mainhand and offhand even though the description says a single melee attack.


I think this is all a red herring anyway. The only time you should be multi-attacking is when you are fighting minions (or virtual minions) who you can drop in one hit anyway. So then the amount of damage you do is pretty much irrelevant, it's just the number of attacks you can make.



That's not exactly true because multiattack does not provoke attacks of opportunity so you can (without having spring attack) go and do damage to multiple enemies and get out of their reach all in the same action. If your allies have good control (slows, restrain, threat of their OA's) then this might be a better strategy for your class to do damage. Especially as a rogue where you can go from Max HP to full character death in a single attack if your not lucky. (At least with the old rules you could. Now it's a little bit better.)
 

That's not exactly true because multiattack does not provoke attacks of opportunity so you can (without having spring attack) go and do damage to multiple enemies and get out of their reach all in the same action.
 


What? Are you saying that you can move during the Whirlwind Attack action?

That's not exactly true because multiattack does not provoke attacks of opportunity so you can (without having spring attack) go and do damage to multiple enemies and get out of their reach all in the same action.
 


What? Are you saying that you can move during the Whirlwind Attack action?



No. Sorry I should have clarified. Multiattack (Skirmisher) [From the rogue level 9]. 
Ah, well that is a different story. But the balance is a little different for rogues, because they bascially don't have any real options besides TWFing. They don't have shield proficiency, nor any decent 2H weapons. Besides that, TWF is awesome for them since it's two chance to land your Sneak Attack. So it's hard to compare for them.
Ah, well that is a different story. But the balance is a little different for rogues, because they bascially don't have any real options besides TWFing. They don't have shield proficiency, nor any decent 2H weapons. Besides that, TWF is awesome for them since it's two chance to land your Sneak Attack. So it's hard to compare for them.



I don't think you get two attempts.
Here are the rules:

Benefit: Once per turn, if you do not have disadvantage when making an attack, you can attempt a sneak attack. When you do so, you make the attack with disadvantage.

With this wording I think if you miss on the main hand you don't get to try with the offhand for Sneak Attack damage so it's always best to try on the offhand. 

I really wish they would allow us to "stack" advantage and disadvantage such that two sources of advantage and one source of disadvantage would = advantage still. It would make combat a lot more strategic. Stealth would actually be slightly useful compared to now where it is completely and utterly worthless. Not to mention no one seems to know the rules for stealth anyway because of how convaluted and vague they are.  

Right you are, thanks. I think its still true though that rogues have nothing to lose by TWFing
The only thing we have to lose is HP the problem is we have the same HP as a wizard so it's like a wizard fighting in melee. If sneak attack doesn't land then we are bet off being ranged since its the same damage numbers. This is why I have resorted to only using ranged combat because disadvantage for extra damage is not worth me losing my character to dieing from a lucky crit roll. This also is why I feel pigeon holed to being ranged as a rogue. If we got more HP to allow us to take a hit I'd go I to melee or if we could stack advantage bonuses if go in. 
OK, yes ranged is a good option. But that doesn't touch on the TWF rules. My point is that a rogue doesn't really care about the balance between TWF, 2H, and sword/shield styles.

FWIW, I would like to see the rogue at d8 hit points too.
We noticed that verbiage in doing our calculations. Missed it the first 5 times

and yes, I agree. Rogues could use some more hit points. Even with the Iron Heroes like rules we are using for hit points, they are fragile.  
I hate that this got so far off topic.   

To the people that were talking damage.  There are some very detailed reports and in depth threads that discuss just how much more powerful two weapon fighting is than any other.  The reason is that two weapon fighting Durante a higher chance to hit, which grants more opportunity to deal deadly strike damage and to land critical hit damage.

There are a few more threads that point out the flaw with the current two weapon fighting system.   Divine favor is overpowered as well. 


Two Weapon fighting requiring you to not move:

Anyone that thinks it would be less fun has never taken a full combat action in 3rd edition.  Landing all those attacks is a blast and if sill complicated restrictions on all the powers, abilities, and feats are lifted, it will be even more fun.
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
twf is the king of dmg... I have no problems with that.   It should be, as you end up being less defensive.  I don't see 2H weapons as much of an option right now... but maybe they can just adjust that up.   
If two weapon fighting required the player to stand still to get all their attacks, it would still be the king of damage.   It would just be situational.

two handed weapons would get their full potential for the hero on the move, and for opportunity attacks.

fighting with two weapons would force the hero to hold his ground, or bring the enemy to him, but then they would unleash hell on whatever they get both attacks on.
this also makes the passive feats like +1ac more rewarding, you can still get those passive bonuses on your movements.
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
TWF is not the king of damage, as has been proven in other threads in this forum.

TWF does not pull ahead until you've invested in three feats, which will not be core options, and even then the disparity is minimal. 

Danny

I was looking at this thread, which is exactly as you stated.  I'm not sure if those calculations include getting two chances to get off deadly strike, I would assume that it does.   It doesn't represent higher ac targets which heavily favors two weapons because of increased chance to hit.

Two weapons also donoffs work well with other feats other than the ones specifically for them.   So spring attack and others are for the other fighting styles.

Non of the other two weapon discussions address how the system messes with powers, spells, and abilities that now have to be limited to once per turn.   Which is the main reason I started the thread.   

 community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/...(In_Depth_Damage_Comparison) 
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
The cost of wielding an off hand weapon is already high enough without taking away movement to boot.

Yes, rogues have no good reason not to carry an off hand weapon.  They get very little benefit from doing so, though.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider