What do you hate about D&D:Next?

Why do  you hate D&D:Next?



  • Fantasy Vietnam - I can't play a heroic character from first level, I have to start somewhere around level 5 to get that feeling in 5E.

  • Options - I need interesting options at every turn. During creation, interaction, exploration, and combat. We don't get that in 5E.

  • Non-Vancian Caster - I need a non-vancian caster or I can't play a Wizard the way I like. Its extremely simple to fix this. There's no excuse that it isn't fixed.

  • Interesting options for martial classes - My players demand interesting martial classes that are effective and equal to the Wizard in usefulness. Something 4E did well, but previous editions did not. I don't care if there are simple options for those that want them, but there must be options to be complex or at least interesting.

  • Monster Math - The monster math is so far off at this point that there is little point in testing anything else. You can't tell if a feature is a good one if the best option is to do a basic attack or cantrip to end the fight faster.


I'm sure there are more, what do you hate about 5E? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
There are some things I dislike about DnD Next, and a couple of things I hate with a passion, but I don't hate DnD next itself, as a whole. This thread needs a better title before I can post my dislikes in it!
"What do you hate about D&D:Next" probably would have been a better title to go with.
Don't hate D&D next, in fact it is shaping up to be the best possible tabletop game for me and mine.  Literally I'm loving everything about it.  Sure it needs a few tweaks here and there but that's still fine at this stage.
Hate is not the right word...

Fantasy vietnam will be fixed in a module. I like to play both ways.

options each round is a direct competitor to speed of play. Not sure what can be done about that.

I'm sure there will be other wizard types

I like expertise dice. Hope it's expanded.

Math is an easy fix. But i agree things die too fast to be any fun fighting.


My main complaint is the lack of feeling that your fighting as a team. There's no reason for the fighter to prone something for the rogue to stab.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't hate D&D Next overall.


I dislike the way expertise dice uses a time machine to undo or add to damage already inflicted.   

I dislike so many intrinsic class features vs having them as feats.   I think they are fixing this.

I dislike most of their suggested healing systems.  Fixable and probably will be.

 
That it lacks vision.

It tries to want to please everybody ending up (at least so far) doing nothing better then editions already out there.
And not opening up new posibilities for campaign words and types of play
 
When 4th was desighed i realy felt they had a vision of what kind of game they wanted to create and went for that vision 100%.
To me even if you diden't like that vision or the end result it is somthing worty of respect.


Closest thing i can come up with to a vision for the design of Dnd Next would be the folowing.
Lets make a base game that is as bland as posible in a attempt to not offend anybody, and have playes ass their own spice ( moduals) if they want to.
And hope that that maximises sales.
 
The only thing I hate about D&D Next is that there no tower shield. 

I spent a whole year giving feedback and made several threads about bringing the tower shield back.
How long would I have to wait to have a portable wall on my character? 
I dislike what they did with the Warlord.

I dislike the way the Race's are being panned out.

I dislike how they are taking several months to release a major packet with a load of updates. Yet they continue to talk about it daily, but we can't see a thing from it despite of how valuable it'd be for testing.

I dislike how little Class features there are for Martials.

I dislike pure magical healing.
The only thing I hate about D&D Next is that there no tower shield. 

I spent a whole year giving feedback and made several threads about bringing the tower shield back.
How long would I have to wait to have a portable wall on my character? 

IMO:

Spiked, Edge, Buckler:  1d4 piercing/slashing/bludgoning, +1 AC, light
Shield: +2 AC, light
Tower Shield: +3 AC, not light (must combine with a light weapon).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Tower Shield: +3 AC, not light (must combine with a light weapon).



in 3.5e, it was +4 AC, -2 AB, and you could actually block a dragon's breath if you went full on defence.

Basically what I been asking is something that gives you total cover and you can move it around. 
Think how big of a shield have to be to do that. I'm thinking two-handed shield. 

Other than the "Legendary" creature, and possibly expertise dice there isn't any interesting in this version yet. Those are both good ideas that need to be fixed, but they have potential. It bothers me after this much time so far that they still haven't gotten the math right when it comes to the monsters though. To myself and others in the groups I play in it is very bland.

Most of the other players in both of my groups dislike bounded accuracy, and aren’t sold on the advantage/disadvantage mechanic. Most of us also dislike Vancian magic and would prefer an alternative right from the beginning.


 As a DM I despise the monsters as they are right now as they have gone back to the previous editions which caused me to stop DMing and I believe that should be a concern. I could go into detail, but suffice to say there is nothing I really like in this version to date.

Leroy Jethro Gibbs NCIS "A slap to the face is humiliating. A slap to the back of the head is a wake up call."

 

Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition

I don't.
My two copper.

Tower Shield: +3 AC, not light (must combine with a light weapon).



in 3.5e, it was +4 AC, -2 AB, and you could actually block a dragon's breath if you went full on defence.

Basically what I been asking is something that gives you total cover and you can move it around. 
Think how big of a shield have to be to do that. I'm thinking two-handed shield. 


Nothing stops you from dual wielding shields.

Tower + Shield = +5 AC.  Which is equivelent to cover.

You won't do much else but sit there, but you can be a nigh-unhittable wall that way. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Dead levels are about as annoying as gamers that disrespect Vietnam, Vietnam Vets, and the Vietnamese people.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I don't.

Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of Random Stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

Back to Product and General D&D Discussions -- because the mobile site is bad. (Fixed!)

Dead levels are about as annoying as gamers that disrespect Vietnam, Vietnam Vets, and the Vietnamese people.



Since no one is doing that, you must love dead levels.

Were are referencing a war that was deadly and ended quite a few lives. Similarly D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I don't hate D&D Next, but I will add a few house rules to make it my own.

At the moment I can't think of anything that will cause problems with my playstyle.

I have a few issues with some dissonant mechanics and the lack of a simple fighter, but other than that it should be a good system.   


Dead levels are about as annoying as gamers that disrespect Vietnam, Vietnam Vets, and the Vietnamese people.



Since no one is doing that, you must love dead levels.

Were are referencing a war that was deadly and ended quite a few lives. Similarly D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it...



You come across as a the kid that can't beat level 1 of a video game.  Your own DM and group not being able to play 1st level rules as written successfully is no problem for the rest of us.   I'm for some optional rules to make it easier for you.

I didn't contrive to do anything and most of my 1e 1st level characters survived.   Death actually became more frequent (while still rare overall) as they got higher levels.

 
I don't hate it, but I don't like how it feels like such a hodge-podge of things. It's easier to pick out the elements I didn't like from editions than to see the ones I do. This stupid obfuscation game is probably necessary, but it's annoying.

There just doesn't seem to be many interesting options.
I hate how they're throwing almost every single class-design by 4E under the bus or under the disguise of a sub-class.

I hate the limited options at most levels.

I hate how weapons are pretty pointless and give little reason for a player to choose a longsword over an axe. Polearms are still, by far, the best weapon (mechanically speaking) in the game and your doing yourself a disservice by not grabbing one.

I hate alignment restrictions

I hate class features that sort of just.....sit there and do nothing important (ie. Paladin's mount).

I hate that you MUST have magical healing in the game.

I hate limited options for the Fighter


---hopefully most of this can be fixed with modules or changes to the game but if they're not, I don't really see a point in buying or changing my current edition for it. It all reeks of "meh" and I can implement most of the changes and still just make a better 3rd Edition and/or continue my 4th Edition games.
I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!
I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.
Dead levels are about as annoying as gamers that disrespect Vietnam, Vietnam Vets, and the Vietnamese people.



Since no one is doing that, you must love dead levels.

Were are referencing a war that was deadly and ended quite a few lives. Similarly D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it...



You come across as a the kid that can't beat level 1 of a video game.  Your own DM and group not being able to play 1st level rules as written successfully is no problem for the rest of us.   I'm for some optional rules to make it easier for you.

I didn't contrive to do anything and most of my 1e 1st level characters survived.   Death actually became more frequent (while still rare overall) as they got higher levels.

 



Wow, personal attacks?

I've been playing video games since I was 14. I'm now 36. I beat most of the 'Nintendo hard' Nintendo games before it was a meme.

I simply no longer enjoy creating 50 characters. I enjoy having a back story and a history and a personality for my characters. I do not enjoy dying to the first hit from a monster that got lucky. I played through early 2E as a Wizard. It was fun, but I didn't like the cowardly aspect of being a Wizard and throwing darts after 1-2 spells at early levels. I also didn't enjoy outshining the Fighter at higher levels.

The only thing I can say is your DM probably wasn't playing RAW or they were going easy on you. 1E is deadly if you play by the rules, but then again most groups didn't play by the rules back in the old days...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I don't hate it at all, but will be marginally displeased if they do not find a nice (easy) monster adjustment system like they had in 4x.  I never liked, and hated to use, the 3x one.  So, if they can do that, I'll be tickled.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

Spiked shields
spare dying.

Those activly hurt the game.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't hate it. 

The only gripes I have are:

• Bestiary feels pretty outdated. Really needs a spruce-up.
• Fighter underwhelming. Give Fighters additional, unique reactions fueled with round-by-round (not turn-by-turn) "Expertise Dice".
• Barbarian overwhelming. Pull weapon resistance and "strength advantage" and I think it'll be fine.
• Paladin, Rogue, and Monk still very "3E"-style. Need to be caught up to the 5E model. 
• Reward system needs to be more robust. 
• Not enough "NPC" stuff - hireling costs, etc.
• Not enough "social" stuff - building costs, etc.
• Too long between packet updates.

If you have to fix it, it's broken.

I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!



I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.



I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Spiked shields spare dying. Those activly hurt the game.



Explain yo'self.

I get spiked shields. They're kinda imba.

What's wrong with Spare the Dying, though? 

If you have to fix it, it's broken.

That it lacks vision.

It tries to want to please everybody ending up (at least so far) doing nothing better then editions already out there.
And not opening up new posibilities for campaign words and types of play
  
 



This.

Connected to this is the way the developers occasionally try to use something from 4e, but refuse to acknowledge the fact and try to change the name. Thus 'healing surges' have to be renamed 'hit dice'. Come on, we all know what these are... just call them healing surges, FFS.    

But anyway, yes, the epic lack of vision is the heart of the problem. There is no central design concept, the rules are mostly exceptions, and the end product (so far) is a confusing mish-mash that tries to do everything, but does none of it well. 

 

"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp

I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!



I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.



I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...




You mean how they have totally responded to those exact things on multiple occaisions and in multiple places?
I <3 D&D Next!

Danny

Thus 'healing surges' have to be renamed 'hit dice'. Come on, we all know what these are... just call them healing surges, FFS.



You know that they don't work like healing surges at all, right?

If you have to fix it, it's broken.

I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!



I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.



I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...




You mean how they have totally responded to those exact things on multiple occaisions and in multiple places?



Citation needed...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I <3 D&D:Next



Off topic posting is against the CoC...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...

Since the most common gripe here is the monster math, and they have said exactly that (that they know it needs work, and that they will get to it); you seem to be ignoring the very reaction that you're asking for.

So, obviously no, that isn't "all it would take". Therefore, they can assume any additional reaction they might try, will fall on the same deaf ears and not be worth the effort.

I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!



I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.



I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...




You mean how they have totally responded to those exact things on multiple occaisions and in multiple places?



Citation needed...




You know what, no.  They said it at multiple cons, and in multiple videos, and in multiple podcasts, I'm pretty sure they even covered it in one of the few hangouts they did as a direct response to user questions.  I'm at work and I don't have time to find it all, but if you need the citation that's the best you are going to get.  Check those vids and podcasts.  If you didn't catch it the first time you watched or listend it isn't my fault.  They explained their stance on the math multiple times and if you didn't catch it it is your fault not theirs.  They explained that the numbers at this point may not be perfect however they also explained that the math was going to be one of the last steps for them in this process.  I don't care if you don't like that answer it is the answer they gave.
I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...

Since the most common gripe here is the monster math, and they have said exactly that (that they know it needs work, and that they will get to it); you seem to be ignoring the very reaction that you're asking for.

So, obviously no, that isn't "all it would take". Therefore, they can assume any additional reaction they might try, will fall on the same deaf ears and not be worth the effort.




They said the monster math thing about 3 major packets ago. They altered the monster math in one of them. They don't seem to know the math still doesn't work. You seem to think they are still going to change it, or they haven't changed it already thinking its fixed.

So yeah, that would be all it would take.

Developer "yeah, we are going to address that in the next packet." or "We thought we fixed that last packet, but if its still a problem we'll take a look." would solved quite a bit of the problems...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Dead levels are about as annoying as gamers that disrespect Vietnam, Vietnam Vets, and the Vietnamese people.



Since no one is doing that, you must love dead levels.

Were are referencing a war that was deadly and ended quite a few lives. Similarly D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it...



There were heroes during that conflict.  Saying that heroic play is absent at any level would be considered disrespectfu.

You are wrong, but you already know it.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!



I dislike the way some of the game's fans hork venomous vomit at the developers. It's not a hard concept - if you want to have a discussion with the developers about a proposed change, you need to give them a polite forum where they can talk. Seriously, I've seen that work at the ToME forums, and entire classes in that game were written by fans. Good manners are the most effective way of getting what you want.

And, for balance:
I like the way most of the responses to this thread are people saying that they don't hate it. Good show, chaps!




Gotta agree with everything here though I don't have the experience with that other forum.



I think its the opposite. they need to come on the forums and then the 'hate' that people mislabel would vaporize when the developers addressed our concerns. Its mainly that concerns aren't adressed that causes the negative feelings to rise.

If people came on and said that X math doesn't make sense and the developers said something like 'we are aware of that, its just a place holder' or 'we didn't notice that, we'll address it.'

Really that would be all it takes. It can't come from the people hired to keep the forums in order though. It would have to be an actual dialog with the developers...




You mean how they have totally responded to those exact things on multiple occaisions and in multiple places?



Citation needed...




You know what, no.  They said it at multiple cons, and in multiple videos, and in multiple podcasts, I'm pretty sure they even covered it in one of the few hangouts they did as a direct response to user questions.  I'm at work and I don't have time to find it all, but if you need the citation that's the best you are going to get.  Check those vids and podcasts.  If you didn't catch it the first time you watched or listend it isn't my fault.  They explained their stance on the math multiple times and if you didn't catch it it is your fault not theirs.  They explained that the numbers at this point may not be perfect however they also explained that the math was going to be one of the last steps for them in this process.  I don't care if you don't like that answer it is the answer they gave.



You know what, yes. Show me one link that backs up your claim and I won't mention it again. You can't though because I've been keeping up with everything they've said and they haven't addressed it even once...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
As to the OP question: I don't hate anything about D&D Next.

D&D Next is shaping up pretty well, as far as I'm concerned. There are some things that still need work; but the designers have made it plain that they are aware of these things and will address them. The Playtest isn't nearly over yet; they have time.

We don't even see the latest material in new packets; they tend to be on to other things by the time we see a new packet (which just means that we usually won't see updates based on recent feedback until the second packet after any individual packet's survey results).
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