Could someone explain why should I choose a wizard over a druid in 5e?

druid:
same number of spells
call lightning  Way more powerful than fireball
more hit points
wild shape
immunities
etc etc...

wizards:
none of the above 
Actually, Druids get more spells, the option for the same number of spells per day, and same numbered for prepared.

Wizards can get rituals without preperation which is good but hardly an upset. Wizards have a few more powerful spells but yeah, Call Lightning at the moment is stupidly good. I like the concept of a spell that you can effectively multi-cast but the damage is too high and the duration is too long for its level.

I whink WotC wanted to nerf the Wizard since it's been viewed as the most OP in past editions but then forgot about the other tier 1 casters' power levels. 
we have a druid in our 11 lvl party, and ne can go melee as well as the paladin, he can cast healing spells as well as damaging spells, can disguise himself with "thousand faces" just like a rogue...
embarassing PG 
There are plenty of roleplaying reasons to choose a wizard over a cleric or druid.  A cleric or druid is bound by their faith which places restrictions on their behavior that wizards don't have (if properly roleplayed and enforced by the DM).  A druid is even more restricted than a cleric. As far as call lightning goes, that's great until you come across lightning immune or resistant critters.  A wizard has a lot more options for damage than a druid does, and the fact that they don't have to worry about healing spells means they can focus on other things.  They also have a ton of utility spells like knock and invisibility that druids don't get.  The specialty bonues are also nice, more spells memorized per level with unlimited rituals from their spellbook or the ability to detect the presence of invisible creatures along with harder to resist illusions or the ability to shape holes in their fireballs so the party doesn't fry with the orcs... I love both classes, but there are plenty of reasons to play a wizard.
There are plenty of roleplaying reasons to choose a wizard over a cleric or druid.



I love roleplay. Don't try and balance mechanics with roleplay.
There are plenty of roleplaying reasons to choose a wizard over a cleric or druid.



I love roleplay. Don't try and balance mechanics with roleplay.



Totally Agree, I'm a DM since 1991, and I love the roleplay and the feature that all the classes offers.

But during playtest, I'm supposed to find what's wrong with my party.

I find that in 5th ed, the wizard is very limited, and I can accept that, cause other class and monster are limited as well.
Then I see the Druid, and I can assure you that in our party he's devastating.
He has a lot of damage spells as well as utility spells (just check the spells list), and whenever he's done casting, ==> wild shape and melee!

if someone is resistant or immune tu lightningh, there are:
flaming seed (or similar name, cantrip...)
thunderwave (sonic)
flame blade
Ice storm
Sun beam
etc etc...

as for the ultilities, dimension door just to name a spell that to me doesn't make any sense in a druid list...energy resistance, healing, buffing...

I can't find a weak spot in this class

sorry for bad english
As for lightning resistant critter, there's always Energy Admixture, pick acid and you'll never worry about things having full resistance for Call Lightning.
Hey folks,

Since this isn't a session report I'll be moving it to Playtest Packet Discussion.

Thanks!

Monica
I've been playing a 3rd level druid and more or less consider it an old style Fighter/Magic User/Cleric.   I walk around with hide and a shield  and do some controlling with entangle, thunderweave and web.  When that's done, I bust into combat with Flame Blade or Shilleagah (however you spell it).

I am not overpowered (the character isn't really tweaked) but I can do  whatever the heck I want.  Spells?  Check.  Combat?  Check.  HEaling?  Check.  Shape change?  Check.
Druids also get some of the best wizard spells now, including charm person, hold person, confusion, dimension door, polymorph, feeblemind and wish. They never had these spells before, and they shouldn't belong to them. Druids are supposed to be good at controlling animals and plants, not people. Now they're master manipulators on par with the best wizard enchanters. It's ridiculous. 
The last packet did bring the power level of entangle down a bit which should help with low level druids, but I do agree that they seem to need a few more tweaks.  I like the feel of the class, but not the implementation   I think perhaps taking away the spell casting bonus would fix them, but it would be a very inelegant fix as their mechanics would be different than other casters (it might look better mechanically if Circle of the Oak had the spellcasting bonus and lost Nature’s Prescience instead).  

Maybe give them the old 3e sorcerer progression and put them one level behind other casters (2nd level spells at 4th level)?

What I think is important though is not to lose the feel of the current druid as it feels right to me. 
Druids also get some of the best wizard spells now, including charm person, hold person, confusion, dimension door, polymorph, feeblemind and wish. They never had these spells before, and they shouldn't belong to them. Druids are supposed to be good at controlling animals and plants, not people. Now they're master manipulators on par with the best wizard enchanters. It's ridiculous. 

This.

Danny

I remember back in the day when Druid was kinda like the Aquaman of D&D, barely any of their spells worked outside of nature.

This is the main reason why I think the Druid should be more specialized in Wildshape and the casting should be nerfed, they should be reduced to ranger/paladin casting level and their shapeshifting should be expanded and made more freeform.

Now that we have Nature Clerics the caster Druid is no longer needed  
I remember those days, Mcnancy!  Druids were so nature focused that if the party even considered going into a dungeon they would shudder.

I believe druids should get back to nature.  Make Call Lightning like it's first incarnation:  it takes 10 minutes to cast and you need to be outside.  This would simulate manipulation of nature versus calling upon the elements themselves (a la wizards).  All other spells should link back to animals, plants, or weather somehow.

The end effect should be druids are superior to wizards in a natural/outdoor setting, but they less powerful in any other setting.
You fight for your freedom? Well, I fight for the freedom of all.
I thing one issue is that standardize spell levels.

In 3rd, druids had a red magey feel as they have all the heals, damage, control, and summon but didn't have the tweaks and utility of the wizard and cleric. A druid could replace a wizard or cleric up to a point. The druid was easiest to press to their limit without the spontaneous heals, domain spells, free metamagic feats, and less naturey spells. Especially in campaigns witho tons of magic items.

With all casters spontaneous, druids need something to weaken them.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I remember those days, Mcnancy!  Druids were so nature focused that if the party even considered going into a dungeon they would shudder.

I believe druids should get back to nature.  Make Call Lightning like it's first incarnation:  it takes 10 minutes to cast and you need to be outside.  This would simulate manipulation of nature versus calling upon the elements themselves (a la wizards).  All other spells should link back to animals, plants, or weather somehow.

The end effect should be druids are superior to wizards in a natural/outdoor setting, but they less powerful in any other setting.



I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. That restricts the viability of druids so much that they aren't worth playing except in outdoor dominant campaigns, in which cases they will be overpowered. 

Call Lightning as a ritual makes no sense. At that point, it needs to be Change Weather ritual, with absolutely no combat application. 
While I agree that the Moon Adept should be toned down, you have to be careful with the Oak Initiate as spells are its main thing.
An Oak Initiates wild shapes are much too weak to enter combat at higher levels.

They are basically only useful for non combat applications, or for combat at low level when the druid has not so many spells at its disposal.

And while I agree that Call Lightning is overpowert as is, I value the spells of the wizzard to be a tad more powerful in general and the spell list of the wizzards provides a much wider choice.

Narrowing down the druids spell list and generally weakening that spells per se will deny the option to play a druid mainly focussing on spells.

And telling those players who want that option to play a cleric or a wizzard is not a valid option.

___________________________________________________________

A little bit of good will is a big step towards making this planet a better place

the druids spells don't cover the same range of crazy that the wizards do

Wildshape is really pretty tame unless your moon circle in which case fewer spells

the rest is more cool and flavorfullthan powerful.

youd play a wizard instead of a druid if you want to play a wizard play a druid if you want to play a druid thats all the reason you ever need

using "balance" as an excuse to wreck an actualy pretty decent version of the druid would be tragic ther is no balance in Next stop obsessing over it all you do is get good classes ruined
Honestly though, who plays Oak?
With Oak, you give up your Wildshape's combat usefulness almost entirely. It becomes a roleplay/scouting feature and nothing more.
Meanwhile, a Moon druid gets amazing Wildshape options and does not have to give up their amazing spellcasting to do it.

The power-balance between the two options is so lopsided it's making my head spin. Tongue Out
Speaking on a strictly mechanical basis, the OP is correct. Druid is far more useful than Wizard in D&D Next. I would add 3 magic feats (1st, 2nd, & 8th levels, like the Fighter) as Wizard class features to resolve.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I have always disliked the flavor of the Druid. Since 1e. They were stupidly powerful in 3.x and as a result of the flavor and overpowered aspect, were not allowed in my campaigns. A trait that is alive and well in Next.
Yea. Balance in D&DN is totally borked right now. There is no reason to choose any spellcaster but the druid. There is no reason to ever play a fighter, as a wizard (who is inferior to the druid) is better than the fighter in every possible way. Overall, balance is something they still need to put a LOT of work into...
Oh good, it's not just me. Wizards seem.. weak. Very weak. NO class features beyond that first decision? Really?

I'm also not sure why anyone would play any kind of Wizard other than a Scholarly Wizard. Evokers and Illusionists get kinda shafted. Well, to be fair, better save DCs on illusions are nice. Evokers seem to lack benefit to me though.
Oh good, it's not just me. Wizards seem.. weak. Very weak. NO class features beyond that first decision? Really?

I'm also not sure why anyone would play any kind of Wizard other than a Scholarly Wizard. Evokers and Illusionists get kinda shafted. Well, to be fair, better save DCs on illusions are nice. Evokers seem to lack benefit to me though.



1) Wizards are not weak. They are currently one of the overpowered classes. They are far better than the fighter and monk. They are mostly better than the barbarian and rogue. It is just that the druid is currently so stupidly overpowered that it manages to overshadow the wizard the way the wizard overshadows many other classes at this moment in time.

2) Spells are class features. You get more class features after 1st level. Spellcasting classes will always have to have fewer "class features," other than spells that is, than other classes. That is the trade-off you pay for access to magic.

3) Evokers can shape AoEs so that they don't hurt the party. That allows them to use all of their most powerful spells with impunity. So, evokers definitely get a nice benefit. But, I am not sure on the balance points between the schools. 
Well, so just another one of these undifferentiated posts discrediting itself.

While I agree that moon druids are overpowert, Oak Druids are not.
Therefore calling druids generally to be overpowered is an unrefined statement.
I think oak druids are pretty balanced against wizards.
And both have a level of power which I think is desirable.

If someone thinks that other classes are weaker in comparison he should call that classes underpowered, not the other classes overpowert.
Because calling other classes overpowered leaves a rather bad taste of envy in the mouth.

If some of the currently existing classes are in fact so much underpowered that action has to be taken is subject of a different discussion
and does not belong into this thread.


___________________________________________________________

A little bit of good will is a big step towards making this planet a better place

So, trying to touch on a few things here
1) Illusionist wizards can rock something like a spell save DC of 19. So with charm person and phantasmal force, you can very effectively lock down 2 living creatures for as long as needed to deal with another target. That may not be showey, but it is extremely effective.
2) evocation is fantastic for a dps wizard because a heavy armor nature warden paladin can taunt, interposing shield, or just entangle foes around him and then let the wizard bring the rain. This is true with pretty much any group makeup with a defensive character willing to put in a modicum of customization to stand between enemies and the wizard. 
3) Druids are very solid, no kidding, but wizards get Mage armor cantrip to bring their AC up to par with hide and have more spell options. 
4) Oak Druid is JUST as good as Moon for different fLavors. With arcane recovery, thunder wave, flame strike, and (ugh) call lightning, they are super effective. It's really easy to obviate the application of behemoth form by putting you in a close quarters dungeon. Does your behemoth fit in a low ceilinged tunnel or small house? no, but thunder wave does. 

But, call lightning is absurdly powerful compared to pretty much everything. We treat it like a blastoderm, diminishing in power each round. 4d10 first round, 3d10, 2d10, and then 1d10 if you keep concentrating. That way it's not a stand back and laugh spell. It's good after 3 rounds, but not as good as other options. 
Replying on some of your statements:

With reference to Oak - lets just agree to disagree.

Even in your version call lightning may still be to strong, as it is not a single target spell. Replace the d10s with d8s adding another d8 for every lvl cast above third.

If I am not mistaken arcane recovery can not be used by druids, and if so it could be used by both druid types.

___________________________________________________________

A little bit of good will is a big step towards making this planet a better place

Replying on some of your statements:
If I am not mistaken arcane recovery can not be used by druids, and if so it could be used by both druid types.

 
The circle of the oak does not get arcane recovery but a very similar ability. P 18 060713 Classes.pdf

Nature’s Prescience: Your mastery over your spells is so great that you waste little magical energy. Once per day, you can recover one of your expended 1st-level spell slots during a short rest.Starting at 3rd level, you can use this feature twice per day, and one of the slots you recover can be 2nd level. Starting at 5th level, you can use this feature three times per day, and one of the slots you recover can be 3rd level.  



While I agree that moon druids are overpowert, Oak Druids are not. 


My gaming experience is that the Oak druids outshine clerics at the table in most ways.  If I was to fix this I would add more druid only spells which are similar, and I would make them of lower power level than the cleric or wizard spells.  I would then take many of the cleric and wizard spells off the table.  The last packet's updated spells were a good start, but they can do better.

4) Oak Druid is JUST as good as Moon for different fLavors. With arcane recovery, thunder wave, flame strike, and (ugh) call lightning, they are super effective. It's really easy to obviate the application of behemoth form by putting you in a close quarters dungeon. Does your behemoth fit in a low ceilinged tunnel or small house? no, but thunder wave does. 
 



Moon druids can cast thunder wave, flame strike and call lightning just as well as oak druids, so I dont know why your behemoth cant use thunderwave (who the hell uses an aoe spell that pushes people in a space that is less than 2*2 squares anyway?). The correct difference is:
Oak: One extra 1st 2nd and 3rd level spell per day, druidcraft as an extra cantrip, Augery and divination and cone of cold outside of spell list. Entangle and call lightning auto prepared
Moon: One extra wildshape per day, and wild shape useful in combat.

You can argue that a 1st 2nd and 3rd level spell per day is equal to several hours a day as a frothing combat beast if the circumstances are just right for those 3 spells... but I know which one I think is the better choice 9/10.

In my opinion moon should have Paladin/Ranger spell progression and higher Combat progression, then it would be balanced (internally in the druid class). At 7th level and above a few extra LOW level spells are not even close to comparing to 4+ times per day for HOURS to become a full fletched fighter.

-----------------

Currently I think the Wizard/Druid/Cleric are quite balanced when it comes to spell casting and Specialisation/Circle of aok/Divinity. What tips the scale is that druids have other abilities beside that (wild shape, thousand constopated feces, Imunity to poison, Woodland Stride etc.) Give the other casters similar abilities to match.

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but /cry wail moan and fighter and wail moan fighter cry. Yea yea we know fighters have it hard, there really isnt a need to bring it up in EVERY single thread about magic, there are enough topics around to float those opinions. I really do hope the fighter get fixed, just keep topiced dicussions on topic please.
Can't cast in wild shape. 
Just saying.

It takes an action to transform, so that's one round of combat you're not a "frothing beast"
you do heal when you come out of wild shape, but the big drawback is that you don't get benefits from any of your gear.
While a ring of protection will buff your ac, you aren't using any +1 weapons in wild shape, so you have the base stats  of that critter.
You get dire form so a +1 att and deadly strike at level 5, but you're still considerably behind the curve if comparing to a fighter, pally, or cleric that been built for combat, especially if they've found a magic weapon. 
Not to mention that clerics can use their spells and be in combat.
 
Wild shape is good, but it's very easy to limit it with encounter space. You can't cast in wild shape, so you have one choice each round, and you're not as scary as a full combat class. Natures Presience (arcane recovery by another name) gives you a total number of spells equal to any wizard, with one of those recalled being Call Lightning, inarguably the most potent combat spell in the game, currently.  

so, Oak vs Moon, pretty much a preference. The moon is good, but not astounding. Oak is fantastic. Restraining a large group with entangle is infinitely better than dealing 2d6 with your dire great cat Form. 

as to the original topic of Wizard vs Druid, currently there's really no mechanical reason to go Wizard. Druid has just as many spells, if slightly less options, druids can choose from among any of those options, whereas a wizard only has their spell book.
The Druid has the best control and damage spells which the wizard list offers, plus flame blade. A Druid can pull off spiked shield flame blade and easily have the ac and HP to mix it up in combat. The wizard doesn't have that option.
Really, you have to hit level 11 for 6th level spells before there's a serious disparity in spell options where the wizard has the advantage. The wizard has better cantrips, but a high elf Druid cherry picks whatever wizard cantrip you want plus all the Druid benefits. 

In short, Druid is distinctly better than wizard, and this needs to be addressed.  
Let me ask you this:
Level 3 spell - Duration hours, increases str+dex+con, gives full deadly strike progression, increases AC gives natural weapons + a special attack, Automatic +1 to hit (no need for magic weapon), increases speed and gives extra mode of movement. When cast as a 4th and 5th level spell has extra abilities such as poison or magic resist, not to talk about a 40 foot line attack that knocks all targets prone. Downside, you cant talk and cast spells and increases size, but can end it whenever you please.

Think that is a spell anyone would think "Nahhh got better"? Think its remotely compareable to Call Lightning? Think 4 times per day compared to 1 Call Lightning is balanced against the oak druid? Think its in line with anything a Wizard or Cleric can cast?
I really want to spend a day inside your mind if you answer yes to all that

That "spell" the circle of the moon druid gets to cast several times per day as a balance vs a level 1,2 and 3 spell. And lets not forget that because his physical stats change during shape change, he can invest just as heavy in to mental stats as the Oak. Circle of the Moon is...over the moon. Its ridiculous and cant be taken serious, just like the first draft of the Barbarian was compared to other martial classes at the time.
Let me ask you this:
Level 3 spell - Duration hours, increases str+dex+con, gives full deadly strike progression, increases AC gives natural weapons + a special attack, Automatic +1 to hit (no need for magic weapon), increases speed and gives extra mode of movement. When cast as a 4th and 5th level spell has extra abilities such as poison or magic resist, not to talk about a 40 foot line attack that knocks all targets prone. Downside, you cant talk and cast spells and increases size, but can end it whenever you please.

Think that is a spell anyone would think "Nahhh got better"? Think its remotely compareable to Call Lightning? Think 4 times per day compared to 1 Call Lightning is balanced against the oak druid? Think its in line with anything a Wizard or Cleric can cast?
I really want to spend a day inside your mind if you answer yes to all that

That "spell" the circle of the moon druid gets to cast several times per day as a balance vs a level 1,2 and 3 spell. And lets not forget that because his physical stats change during shape change, he can invest just as heavy in to mental stats as the Oak. Circle of the Moon is...over the moon. Its ridiculous and cant be taken serious, just like the first draft of the Barbarian was compared to other martial classes at the time.



The packet I have has dire Form at level 5. Which would put a Bear at 30', +5 to hit, and 2d6+2 slashing damage. The cat can get to +6to hit, 3d6+9 if it moves 10 feet and hits with two attacks (the third being an almost auto hit with prone rule and a +9to hit), 40', 17AC. 
If we're comparing apples to apples, at level 5 you're throwing call lightning 3x per day, at 4d10 per round, from 50', for 10 minutes. So yes, I think that 4d10, 1/2 damage on saves against a great spell save DC vs 3d6+9 if at least 2 attacks hit the same target in melee is pretty comparable. 
At Level  10 you have poison breath on one of your attacks, and once per encounter you can shoot spines at 3 creatures, and once per encounter you can trample. 
Meanwhile, a level 10 Oak Druid has 4x call lightning, 3x wall of fire or ice storm, and 2x flame strike or cone of cold. From a sheer lockdown perspective with Wall of Fire or Cone of Cold you can shut down swathes of opponents. Trample becomes meaningless in any setting besides a big field where you happen to be battling a caravan or something. Cone of Cold is just as good in a dungeon as it is outside. 

So, yes, deadly strike progression is cool, but its only ever single target damage. Wild shape is fantastic, and probably better than it should be, but the class as a whole is probably better than it should be, in comparison with other classes. But don't be condescending and misrepresent the values of the subclasses in an attempt to discredit my argument. Oak is disgustingly good, with access to some of the best spells in the game, auto prepared. It grants access to big damage spells, repeatedly, much earlier in the game than Dire Ancient Behemoth, and remains solid throughout the progression. has much more flexibility than just "Hulk Smash" dire forms. While you CAN shift out, it takes an action. So does shifting up. So if there's any reason you have to shift out, say to cast a spell to heal an ally or lock down a group of foes you can't kill in one round, you've burned a turn. You grant more opportunity attacks with huge size, allow for more foes to stack up on you, and can't do your thing in tight quarters. 

So, yea, class as a whole? Overpowered. Subclasses compared to each other? Only a meaningful argument at level 10, and then fairly close still. Come hang out in my brain for a day, anytime. 
I see whats going on now (thank you for inviting me in to your brain :p):

Meanwhile, a level 10 Oak Druid has 4x call lightning, 3x wall of fire or ice storm, and 2x flame strike or cone of cold.
 



You are under the impression that if you HAVE wild shape you HAVE to use it all the time, so you cant cast spells.
An oak druid at level 10 has:
4x call lightning, 3x wall of fire or ice storm, and 2x flame strike or cone of cold and 4x exploration pillar wild shape
A Moon druid at level 10 has:
3x call lightning, 3x wall of fire or ice storm, and 2x flame strike and 5x combat or exploration pillar wild shape

A moon druid can play as a druid caster all day long, and then when running out of spells use wild shape.
An Oak druid can play as a druid caster all day long, and when running out has 3 more low level spells left.



But don't be condescending and misrepresent the values of the subclasses in an attempt to discredit my argument.
 


Im presenting the values correctly, and the point of a discussion is to discredit faulty arguments so I dont really know what you are doing on a discussion forum if you dont like your arguments being discredited. Look above to see how I corrected your misrepresented values.


Oak is disgustingly good, with access to some of the best spells in the game, auto prepared. It grants access to big damage spells, repeatedly, much earlier in the game than Dire Ancient Behemoth, and remains solid throughout the progression. 


What you are arguing is that an oak druid is as good as moon because he is the superior caster, well he is not. He has 3 more low level spells (hope ive spelled it out enough now) per day, and honestly more often than not you rest before you use your last 1-3 slots anyway. THEY HAVE THE ACCESS TO THE SAME SPELLS except for Cone of Cold and as youve pointed out (and I agree) Call Lightning is overly powerful at the moment so why would you cast cone of cold rather than a 5th level Call Lightning?

And again we agree the class as a whole is overpowered, I dont think the pure caster part vs the pure caster parts of the wizard is out of balance, the wizard has sole access to some pretty nasty spells as well. Its all the extra features added on top that tips the scale.

To sum up: The druid is a SPLENDID spell caster who has the choice of 3 low level spells extra per day or Combat wild shape. No matter which he chooses he can cast loads of high powered spells, when he runs out of spells; wild shape rather than 3 low level spells is always the better choice, and it only becomes better the higher level you get as opposed to 3 low level spells who are always 3 low level spells. A moon druid is STILL a splendid spell caster.
I am pretty certain I conceded that it's a meaningful argument at level 10. Until you get enhanced form, its a moot point. Which was the basic argument I was presenting. At any level before that, the extra utility and flexibility of arcane recovery makes up for the loss of dire shape. 

I'm well aware that you get spells as a moon Druid, but you don't have the choice to renew your spell slots. The two subclasses are hugely dependent on class makeup. A huge beast interferes with other melee classes surrounding a single target. A huge beast is prone to opportunity attacks because it effectively gives enemies reach. So there are drawbacks to that which don't and won't ever apply to getting extra spells. 

If your argument is "they rest" then the extra wild shape per day is just as moot as the extra 3 slots. The Moon Druid being able to go to scary beast form after they run out of spells is moot.
You didn't present your arguments correctly, you packaged dire form and enhanced form as something moon got all as a spell progression, when its a binary set which doesn't fully arrive until level 10. There's no level 4 spell slot that comes into play. Oak gets more benefits, earlier. If and only if your campaign reaches level 10 do you reap the benefits of moon progression which can be arguably better than Oak. With three damage dice on one attack and the special attacks, they come to parity, or Moon is possibly better depending on circumstances and group makeup. 

You treat low level spells like they're nonsense, when what you actually have is another casting of entangle, fog cloud, thunder wave, flame blade, spike growth, flaming sphere, call lightning, sleet storm or a plethora of utility spells. While they're not damage spells, many of them are restraining effects or rough terrain effects, which enhance the whole party rather than just your character. 

Im not arguing that the oak is a superior caster, I'm arguing that the oak brings more utility, flexibility, and control to the table. Oak can lock down more targets more time per day, reshape the battlefield more times per day, and deal devastating damage more times per day. 

You presented trample as a powerful threat, which it can be under the right circumstances, but not often. As a counterpoint I presented Cone of Cold which deals 6d8 and half damage on a save vs 3d6+4 binary. CoC is a 60' cone vs a 40' line. Moon has an advantage in recharging that after a short rest, but the vastly larger area of effect and consistency of damage make it a very attractive choice, even over a 5th level call lightning. 

So, to "spell it out enough now" for you, Oak is more flexible, has more options, much earlier, and really shines at level 5-10 while the Moon doesn't hit that sweet spot until level 10+. After that point, the Oak is still good because of Cone of Cold or level 5 Call Lightnings. The choice between one or the other is largely dependent on group makeup and personal preference. 
But you're not addressing the fact that Moon doesn't have to choose between "Deal spell damage" or "Assume combat form." It can do both.

An Oak druid is combat useless (aside from cantrips) when they run out of spells (just like any primary caster). In lieu of that, they'll have to be more conservative with their casting in order to remain useful throughout the day.
A Moon druid, on the other hand, doesn't have that concern. They can use their (equally viable) spells just as often as they like because they know that when they run out, they still have a combat option that the Oak just doesn't have.

Now, if the Moon druid had a significantly reduced casting table (as I've seen suggested a few times) then it would make more sense to compare "spell vs combat form" (and honestly, it would probably be a more balanced decision over which route to take). However, if they did incorporate that option, it would basically be two different classes instead of two sides of the same class.

(Edit - Addressing this idea I've seen a couple times about large forms not fitting into tight spaces? Well most GMs aren't going to let you Call Lightning in a dungeon either, so it's really a moot point. Tongue Out)
As for the druid showdown... you can cast call lightning and then shapeshift and start attacking people... in case you didn't know. Thundercats... ho!
Well, so just another one of these undifferentiated posts discrediting itself.

While I agree that moon druids are overpowert, Oak Druids are not.
Therefore calling druids generally to be overpowered is an unrefined statement.
I think oak druids are pretty balanced against wizards.
And both have a level of power which I think is desirable.

If someone thinks that other classes are weaker in comparison he should call that classes underpowered, not the other classes overpowert.
Because calling other classes overpowered leaves a rather bad taste of envy in the mouth.

If some of the currently existing classes are in fact so much underpowered that action has to be taken is subject of a different discussion
and does not belong into this thread.



thank you

just because they finally got a class right doesnt mean its broken. Its the classes that arent any good that dont capture the awesome of the class archetype that should be criticized not the ones that are cool and do everything their supposed to!

Well, so just another one of these undifferentiated posts discrediting itself.

While I agree that moon druids are overpowert, Oak Druids are not.
Therefore calling druids generally to be overpowered is an unrefined statement.
I think oak druids are pretty balanced against wizards.
And both have a level of power which I think is desirable.

If someone thinks that other classes are weaker in comparison he should call that classes underpowered, not the other classes overpowert.
Because calling other classes overpowered leaves a rather bad taste of envy in the mouth.

If some of the currently existing classes are in fact so much underpowered that action has to be taken is subject of a different discussion
and does not belong into this thread.



thank you

just because they finally got a class right doesnt mean its broken. Its the classes that arent any good that dont capture the awesome of the class archetype that should be criticized not the ones that are cool and do everything their supposed to!




If one class is strictly better than all of the other ones, the elegant solution is to weaken it.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
 thank you

just because they finally got a class right doesnt mean its broken. Its the classes that aren't any good that don't capture the awesome of the class archetype that should be criticized not the ones that are cool and do everything their supposed to!

The DDN Druid does not look like a fun class to play, I don't think they got it right at all. First of all this version is much more restraining on what forms you can take than the past two versions. It's other class features are just a grab bag of relic traits that don't have much in relation to one another. The 4E Druid was the only Druid I have ever played because it's the only version so far that you can actually focus on one thing and not neglect two thirds of the features I was given.

The Druid has too much stuff, even still after they took animal companion away. It's like there's this cool mysterious shapeshifting hermit archetype but then they try and jam in these Shaman and Sentinel archetypes which are basically Cleric and Monk. I suppose it would look like a fun class to play if I wanted to play three different characters trapped in one body.

We need a fresh take on the Druid. Shapeshifting in my opinion is the only thing unique to the Druid and that aspect of them should take priority over anything else and given as much space as it needs, Wildshape should be expanded and explored and made more dynamic and customizable and then once you've made a shapeshifter that's fun to play and broad in scope, then you can add in a few non essential things.

The Shaman archetype should folded into Cleric and the Sentinel Archetype should be left to Monk and/or Ranger. Then if you want to play the classic Druid just make a Druid/Cleric/Monk/Ranger 
I still think that Wild Shapes should be spells, i.e. Wild Shape (Hound) would be a 1st level spell. I think this is a good idea for several reasons:

1. Druids would need to divide their resources between spellcasting and fighting, rather than being super fighter/wizards. Those who invest alot into shapeshifting wouldn't have as many spells to use for other things, and vice versa.

2. Right now, druids can only wild shape 1-5 times per day (less if you use dire forms). That kind of sucks if wild shaping is central to your character concept. Having wild shape as spells gives players the freedom to use wild shape more often by paying spell slots for it.

3. There would be more of a point in using lower level forms, since they don't cost as much as the better forms. Right now, turning into a behemoth has the same cost as turning into a hound. If Wild Shapes were spells, turning into a hound would be a lower level spell than turning into a behemoth, so it would cost less.

4. Dire Forms and other enhancements could be added to forms by using higher level spell slots, giving greater flexibility.

5. New forms can much more easily be added to the druid's repertoire in future supplements, without causing as many imbalances or needing to lock those forms away behind things like prestige classes. There could be wild shape spells that let druids become plants, elementals, or fey, for example, and it would be okay because they'd have to choose to prepare those spells instead of others.
I still think that Wild Shapes should be spells, i.e. Wild Shape (Hound) would be a 1st level spell. I think this is a good idea for several reasons:

1. Druids would need to divide their resources between spellcasting and fighting, rather than being super fighter/wizards. Those who invest alot into shapeshifting wouldn't have as many spells to use for other things, and vice versa.

2. Right now, druids can only wild shape 1-5 times per day (less if you use dire forms). That kind of sucks if wild shaping is central to your character concept. Having wild shape as spells gives players the freedom to use wild shape more often by paying spell slots for it.

3. There would be more of a point in using lower level forms, since they don't cost as much as the better forms. Right now, turning into a behemoth has the same cost as turning into a hound. If Wild Shapes were spells, turning into a hound would be a lower level spell than turning into a behemoth, so it would cost less.

4. Dire Forms and other enhancements could be added to forms by using higher level spell slots, giving greater flexibility.

5. New forms can much more easily be added to the druid's repertoire in future supplements, without causing as many imbalances or needing to lock those forms away behind things like prestige classes. There could be wild shape spells that let druids become plants, elementals, or fey, for example, and it would be okay because they'd have to choose to prepare those spells instead of others.




Thats awesome brilliant!