Monk needs to be toned down

Im not really sure what happened with the release of the monk in this playtest,but wow.I hope that you really wanted to give the people that play monks a nice christmas preasent lol.



Immune to posion...check
Immune to disease...check
Immune to charm/frighten...check
Advantage on all magic saving throws...check

and the list goes on and on.....the monk gets more ablitites by far then any other class,and not just filler ablities but potent ones.



Abundent step should be an action not simply replacing the monks movement,or toned down,maybe 5-10 feet worth of teleporting.

Why remove fighters 2end attack at 6th level if you were going to give the monk the ablitity to make up to 3 unarmed strikes via Flurry of blows? at that same level!


I just had a moment or two,I could write a sprawling compairision about how monks blow both of their meele counter parts away but it may not be needed,hopefully you guys already know what needs to be done.                  
Im not really sure what happened with the release of the monk in this playtest,but wow.I hope that you really wanted to give the people that play monks a nice christmas preasent lol.



Immune to posion...check
Immune to disease...check
Immune to charm/frighten...check
Advantage on all magic saving throws...check

and the list goes on and on.....the monk gets more ablitites by far then any other class,and not just filler ablities but potent ones.



Abundent step should be an action not simply replacing the monks movement,or toned down,maybe 5-10 feet worth of teleporting.

Why remove fighters 2end attack at 6th level if you were going to give the monk the ablitity to make up to 3 unarmed strikes via Flurry of blows? at that same level!


I just had a moment or two,I could write a sprawling compairision about how monks blow both of their meele counter parts away but it may not be needed,hopefully you guys already know what needs to be done.                  


i would change immunities to resistances or advantage on saving throws.
abundant step gives exactly 30', that means no step of the wind movement bonus, nor is there move up, attack and move away.
thats one thing that makes the monk and fighter differ, the monk gets more attacks, but each one is weaker (limited to d6) where as the fighter can hit with d12 weapons while adding their entire mdd on top

the 30' teleport is more then enough,think of all the things you could do with that. You could for the most part never provoke attack of oppertunity again night crawling your way around the battle field. and the more attacks that a monk can make simply seperates him further,after all more attacks means more chances to crit/attack a varried amount of foes ect

the 30' teleport is more then enough,think of all the things you could do with that. You could for the most part never provoke attack of oppertunity again night crawling your way around the battle field. and the more attacks that a monk can make simply seperates him further,after all more attacks means more chances to crit/attack a varried amount of foes ect


yes and that is the benefit of multiple attacks as opposed to one big hit. thats kinda the point.
besides, the fighter gets extra daily attacks past level 10

and yeah i get that about the teleport but also remember, it must be in your line of sight, it uses up all your movement so nop turning corners, going around pillars, going up ramps at the end of a hallway, etcetcetc

the 30' teleport is more then enough,think of all the things you could do with that. You could for the most part never provoke attack of oppertunity again night crawling your way around the battle field. and the more attacks that a monk can make simply seperates him further,after all more attacks means more chances to crit/attack a varried amount of foes ect


yes and that is the benefit of multiple attacks as opposed to one big hit. thats kinda the point.
besides, the fighter gets extra daily attacks past level 10

and yeah i get that about the teleport but also remember, it must be in your line of sight, it uses up all your movement so nop turning corners, going around pillars, going up ramps at the end of a hallway, etcetcetc





yes but I can also teleport over that 30 chasim,onto that two story building where archers are pelting my party with arrows,down from the crows nest onto the deck of a ship without taking damage.....see I can list things too bud,and I bet you I can come up with alot more useful ways to use 30' of teleporting then you can list for ways of stoping it.


and as for the action surge of the fighter,yeah its....ok I mean a second action could be useful....but 4 times a day at 20th? I think I'll take 20 in all my stats along with a slew of immunites.
       


the 30' teleport is more then enough,think of all the things you could do with that. You could for the most part never provoke attack of oppertunity again night crawling your way around the battle field. and the more attacks that a monk can make simply seperates him further,after all more attacks means more chances to crit/attack a varried amount of foes ect


yes and that is the benefit of multiple attacks as opposed to one big hit. thats kinda the point.
besides, the fighter gets extra daily attacks past level 10

and yeah i get that about the teleport but also remember, it must be in your line of sight, it uses up all your movement so nop turning corners, going around pillars, going up ramps at the end of a hallway, etcetcetc





yes but I can also teleport over that 30 chasim,onto that two story building where archers are pelting my party with arrows,down from the crows nest onto the deck of a ship without taking damage.....see I can list things too bud,and I bet you I can come up with alot more useful ways to use 30' of teleporting then you can list for ways of stoping it.


and as for the action surge of the fighter,yeah its....ok I mean a second action could be useful....but 4 times a day at 20th? I think I'll take 20 in all my stats along with a slew of immunites.
       




im not saying it shouldnt be useful... but really? you think you can teleport onto a two story building?

im not saying it shouldnt be useful... but really? you think you can teleport onto a two story building?



a two story building is twenty feet tall.....whats the problem?
im not saying it shouldnt be useful... but really? you think you can teleport onto a two story building?



a two story building is twenty feet tall.....whats the problem?


you are also required to see the point, you cant travel vertical and across, it must be a diagonal movement which is lomnger, and given that you must be able to see the point you are teleporting to, you wouldnt be right up next to it
I live with two story houses right next to mine,on either side actually. and I can honestly say that it would be quite easy to reach using the method of teleporting. I am well aware of the line of sight rules,I have been playing since the late 80's.And you can travel vertical,if something is with the reach of your arms after your 30' of movement you can still grab on/pull yourself up with your action.




     
I live with two story houses right next to mine,on either side actually. and I can honestly say that it would be quite easy to reach using the method of teleporting. I am well aware of the line of sight rules,I have been playing since the late 80's.And you can travel vertical,if something is with the reach of your arms after your 30' of movement you can still grab on/pull yourself up with your action.




     


ok sure, you teleport up and grab on to the edge. they then stomp on your hands and knock you off
I live with two story houses right next to mine,on either side actually. and I can honestly say that it would be quite easy to reach using the method of teleporting. I am well aware of the line of sight rules,I have been playing since the late 80's.And you can travel vertical,if something is with the reach of your arms after your 30' of movement you can still grab on/pull yourself up with your action.




     


ok sure, you teleport up and grab on to the edge. they then stomp on your hands and knock you off





goodthing I did it right at thier feet.....I guess.All im saying is 30' of teleportation is almost always going to be vastly superior for movement then any other form of movement,and I think ive proven that thus far.  
I live with two story houses right next to mine,on either side actually. and I can honestly say that it would be quite easy to reach using the method of teleporting. I am well aware of the line of sight rules,I have been playing since the late 80's.And you can travel vertical,if something is with the reach of your arms after your 30' of movement you can still grab on/pull yourself up with your action.




     


ok sure, you teleport up and grab on to the edge. they then stomp on your hands and knock you off




You will be able to see the area right above the edge right? So you teleport on top of the edge. You don't need to see the ground on top of the building. Just the area above it.
I live with two story houses right next to mine,on either side actually. and I can honestly say that it would be quite easy to reach using the method of teleporting. I am well aware of the line of sight rules,I have been playing since the late 80's.And you can travel vertical,if something is with the reach of your arms after your 30' of movement you can still grab on/pull yourself up with your action.




     


ok sure, you teleport up and grab on to the edge. they then stomp on your hands and knock you off




You will be able to see the area right above the edge right? So you teleport on top of the edge. You don't need to see the ground on top of the building. Just the area above it.


stand at the edge of a building, then tell me if you can see the top of it
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added. I think monk was just their main focus at the moment in my opinion. At least that's how it looks...
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added. I think monk was just their main focus at the moment in my opinion. At least that's how it looks...


i cant remember where i saw it but i remember it being stated that they were working on completing the monk to give a baseline of what a 1-20 class will look like. they will be adding more to other classes
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added. I think monk was just their main focus at the moment in my opinion. At least that's how it looks...


i cant remember where i saw it but i remember it being stated that they were working on completing the monk to give a baseline of what a 1-20 class will look like. they will be adding more to other classes

Well I havent read that,and if you come across it could you post a link here?



I know that this is still a playtest and that nothing is final nor are things set in stone.I just hope they take a hard look at the monk before the next release.
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added.


I don't understand this mentality.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with removing some abilities if playtest feedback indicates that they are regarded as "too much."

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added.


I don't understand this mentality.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with removing some abilities if playtest feedback indicates that they are regarded as "too much."



Because the others aren't finished yet, that's why. Why would you take abilities away from the finished class and make it just like the unfinished class? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Of course the feedback will be that its unbalanced because the other classes are not finished yet. Its expected feedback and should be ignored until the other classes are finished. Once they are finished then they should tone down or bring up classes as needed. I see no reason to tone down a finished class when other classes are not finished.
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added. I think monk was just their main focus at the moment in my opinion. At least that's how it looks...


i cant remember where i saw it but i remember it being stated that they were working on completing the monk to give a baseline of what a 1-20 class will look like. they will be adding more to other classes


That makes sense to me because the other classes do not look anywhere near like the monk. 

IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Monks are OP compared to the rest but the rest still have gaps that need to be filled. I don't think their abilities should be removed but other classes need stuff added. I think monk was just their main focus at the moment in my opinion. At least that's how it looks...


i cant remember where i saw it but i remember it being stated that they were working on completing the monk to give a baseline of what a 1-20 class will look like. they will be adding more to other classes


That makes sense to me because the other classes do not look anywhere near like the monk. 




I just dont see the WoC releasing a finished Monk class when they stated that they wanted to get the core classes done (and done right I might add) first,they've stated that Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard are what they consider Core,and thus why they pulled Sorcerer and warlock from the last playtest packet. They wanted to get the 4 primary classes done, I cant find any information on the " Monk is done and we're working on the core classes now" so if someone has a link feel free to post it here.

Also they gave the fighter back his beginning parry abilities, and even allowing them to use thier skill die with it.
As a "complete" class the Monk is mostly okay.  I HATE the Immunities and will end up houseruling them to either Resistant or Advantage on Saves.  Other than that though, as long as they bring the other combat primary classes up to the same level I have no problems with it.
I have yet to see the monk in full play, but I have to say it appears to be zero fun for the DM and all other non-monk players at the table. I think the teleporting is too much, I think the immunities make core rules and obstacles pointless, and I especially dislike the Undaunted Strike. It is not to say that I don't believe the Monk shouldn't have these abilities at all, but that there needs to be a qualification to their inclusion. For instance, at 2nd level, you can choose one of ways your unarmed strike counts as (magical, adamantine, etc), and perhaps at later levels you can have more than one, but giving them free reign on pretty much all damage reistance makes that whole aspect of monsters pointless and tedious. I hope Wizards reigns in the monk for the next packet.
Wow if people are going to whine about things monks have always had, then I want the ability to attack 6 or 7 times per round doing a d20+ per hit back.
Wow if people are going to whine about things monks have always had, then I want the ability to attack 6 or 7 times per round doing a d20+ per hit back.




  if we are going back to 3.x (which is the point im going to assume you we're trying to make) you do understand that the monk was the only class that you never wanted to prestige out of,because of the insane ablitites that the class got.



The monk (to me) seems too strong if you are going to give the class all of those ablities then in my opinion it should not have the same marital value of the fighter.They recive the same attack bonus,same marital die bonus/dice,yet the fighter gets about 1/10 of the monks utility.
If anything, the monks save or die ability needs to be nerfed (quivering palm). Because once that hits the monk just needs to run around waiting for the target to fail 3 times.
Wow if people are going to whine about things monks have always had, then I want the ability to attack 6 or 7 times per round doing a d20+ per hit back.




  if we are going back to 3.x (which is the point im going to assume you we're trying to make) you do understand that the monk was the only class that you never wanted to prestige out of,because of the insane ablitites that the class got.



The monk (to me) seems too strong if you are going to give the class all of those ablities then in my opinion it should not have the same marital value of the fighter.They recive the same attack bonus,same marital die bonus/dice,yet the fighter gets about 1/10 of the monks utility.



See that is part of my point. Of all the things to complain about, having immunities against some things that they always have had is not one of them. People act like monks have never been in the game or had these abilities like Quivering Palm. It doesn't say if forcing a save takes up your actions or what the DC is. Cons saves are pretty easy for most things and it would probablky be easier just to stcik a sword in them.

I was more shocked at how Perfect Self gave you all 20's in you stats pretty much negating any points you used leveling unless they took you over 20.
i know that the rules are still incomplete (even though this monk strangely seems complete, heck the cleric doesnt even have any domain spells past the 5th level progression), but the love that has been heaped upon the monk really disenfranchises me as a player and dm.

the monk just seems to have this silver bullet for everything. i was so excited as a dm to see fear aspects coming back to the monsters, but dont even think about using such silly efforts on a monk (or charm to boot). and poison being one of the most common damage types for monsters is completely nullified for a monk.

however, abundant strike is the ability that i find most distasteful. the game seems to be headed for a more low magic feel, which i can appreciate. certainly if you want high magic then you can start slinging out magic items for sale as soon as your generous dm heart desires. however, the monk circomvents this as early as second level. he does as much damage and hits as often as a fighter and basically overcomes every form of physical resistance that protects the higher level monsters from being slain in one hit (thanks to the other bane of this edition - martial expertise dice).

i just don't understand why one class should get the class ability equivalent of a magic item every other level, for not cost against them. they give up nothing to gain everything. and then hey, they can still equip a magic item or two if they so choose just to round out a niche weakness when needed.

sorry to use the b word, but some balance between the classes would be nice.
Wow if people are going to whine about things monks have always had, then I want the ability to attack 6 or 7 times per round doing a d20+ per hit back.




  if we are going back to 3.x (which is the point im going to assume you we're trying to make) you do understand that the monk was the only class that you never wanted to prestige out of,because of the insane ablitites that the class got.



The monk (to me) seems too strong if you are going to give the class all of those ablities then in my opinion it should not have the same marital value of the fighter.They recive the same attack bonus,same marital die bonus/dice,yet the fighter gets about 1/10 of the monks utility.



See that is part of my point. Of all the things to complain about, having immunities against some things that they always have had is not one of them. People act like monks have never been in the game or had these abilities like Quivering Palm. It doesn't say if forcing a save takes up your actions or what the DC is. Cons saves are pretty easy for most things and it would probablky be easier just to stcik a sword in them.

I was more shocked at how Perfect Self gave you all 20's in you stats pretty much negating any points you used leveling unless they took you over 20.





I understand the idea of "hey they have always had these ablitites" but in 3.x the fighter also had more hp/better damage and a whole slew of bonus feats.The onlything that made it into next for the fighter was the extra couple of hp per level. The monk on the other hand got to keep all of its cool stuff AND got the martial prowess of the fighter.....which to me seems odd.Though it does seems like the majority of players seem to agree,which I am pleased with.I guess we will just have to wait and see what the next playtest looks like.

Perfect Self is indeed kind of a slap in the face as well. I mean, when you have a class power that uses the word perfect, you're kind of a doosh.

Anyway, on a more critical note, I simply don't see why they get flat out immunities and flat out overcome resistances. I'm not against these abilities (that they've always had—praise be the almighty 3.x monk, may he live on forever in unbalance), I'm just saying that some real choices should be made, and some real restraint should be showed. Instead of flat out making the monk's hands into silver, magic, adamantine and cold iron (which doesn't even make sense), have them choose one, or require it to be a stance that takes an action. Instead of granting full on immunities to poison and disease, how about resistance, or advantage to saving throws versus disease?

I just don't see why it has to be so black and white. As a DM, if a monk in the party has immunity to disease that whole mechanic is thrown out the door. Even if a party has access to a Cure Disease spell, there are still opportunities to make it a threat, and overcoming a disease uses resources. Even if a Fighter carries around a cold iron sword, a silver sword, a magic sword and an adamantine sword—there are still opportunities to challenge that player in their decision making.

The monk doesn't inspire decision. It's a hand full of trump cards, and in no game is that fun.
I just thought of an interesting mechanic (IMO) that might work. Instead of immunties, since a monk is working to perfect body and mind and the union between them give him something that works like evasion where they can roll to avoid any of the effects if they make a save or if at all possible, take only half effect if they fail the save.

That would mean that everything would have to have a lesser version listed, but there can't bee too many to make it too time consuming.
i just don't understand why one class should get the class ability equivalent of a magic item every other level, for not cost against them. they give up nothing to gain everything. and then hey, they can still equip a magic item or two if they so choose just to round out a niche weakness when needed.



And that's EXACTLY what the problem with the monk is.  They get every advantage that other comporable classes get, and then get more on top of it.  All without having a single disadvantage (well, I guess that they can't attack long range... yet).

I hate this latest play test because it has absolutely no balance at all.  I understand that they want to try different things, but even a nooby can see that certain classes suck horribly (like the wizard) and certain classes are vastly superior (like the monk).
Wellofworlds already mentioned this, but fighters have parry.  If you asked me if I wanted to be immune to poison / charm / disease or immune to two points of melee damage, I'd choose melee damage every time.

I agree that Perfect Self is over the top, but the class as a whole is not that great IMO.
I agree that the monk definitely needs to be nerfed a bit, and the other classes probably also need to be brought up to the same level (Wizards, for instance, need more high level slots, and it would be nice to actually have some class features after level 1; specialist wizard stuff, perhaps?).

I think the immunities are fine, but I agree that the ignoring resistances thing should be acquired more gradually, not all at once like that. Perfect Self is just completely ridiculous and needs to be axed completely, and even though Abudant Step is arguably balanced considering its drawbacks, I just don't see the point... what martial artist in popular media can literally teleport? Unless you're talking about anime warrior abilities like Bleach's Flash Step or Dragonball Z's Instant Transmission (or just the more standard "moving-so-fast-you-can't-see-me" routine that inevitably results in the non-Goku characters standing around uselessly gibbering with their mouths open).

Overall, though, aside from the few things I mentioned above, I agree that the other classes should be given more cool stuff rather than the Monk being gutted.