Looks like I'm Banning Rogues from My Games

So this is the relevant part of the legend and lore article."You can think of these as nonmagical effects that would still require a saving throw or an ability contest to resist. For instance, Shalandra the rogue might contest her Charisma against an ogre's Wisdom. If Shalandra wins, she can trick the ogre into charging forward and blundering into a trap."

This is okay for non intellegant creatures, but there is no valid reason an intellegant creature should have to fall for such a thing. Nor do I like the idea of such a creaturing being tricked into having to charge forward and into a trap. This should be part of the roleplaying part of the game. Anything like magic shouldn't be given to martial classes and forcing a monster/npc to act in a certain way without being magically compelled is just a breakdown in logic.

This makes the third time the rogue has been messed up, going from bad to worse to somehow even worse. And would also make the first time I have ever banned a class from a game, but I have no desire to deal with a non-magical hypnotist while running a game. If my villian wants to attack the wizard cuase the wizard just burned him with burning hands, he should have the complete option (as an intellegent creature) to completely ignore the rogue no matter what. 

I think this would also qualify as my first "ragequit" for Next, though it is caused by the issue occuring three times in a row with the rogue always causing problems. 


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

So this is the relevant part of the legend and lore article."You can think of these as nonmagical effects that would still require a saving throw or an ability contest to resist. For instance, Shalandra the rogue might contest her Charisma against an ogre's Wisdom. If Shalandra wins, she can trick the ogre into charging forward and blundering into a trap."

This is okay for non intellegant creatures, but there is no valid reason an intellegant creature should have to fall for such a thing. Nor do I like the idea of such a creaturing being tricked into having to charge forward and into a trap. This should be part of the roleplaying part of the game. Anything like magic shouldn't be given to martial classes and forcing a monster/npc to act in a certain way without being magically compelled is just a breakdown in logic.

This makes the third time the rogue has been messed up, going from bad to worse to somehow even worse. And would also make the first time I have ever banned a class from a game, but I have no desire to deal with a non-magical hypnotist while running a game. If my villian wants to attack the wizard cuase the wizard just burned him with burning hands, he should have the complete option (as an intellegent creature) to completely ignore the rogue no matter what. 

I think this would also qualify as my first "ragequit" for Next, though it is caused by the issue occuring three times in a row with the rogue always causing problems. 




I am in full disagreement with you...this system sounds like the best one so far, and your post reeks of rouges can't have nice things because magic.
In your game, how do you resolve situations where a character attempts to trick an NPC using non-magical means?
So, hold on: it is not logical for a trickster to use their charisma to fool something into doing something stupid? REALLY!? Ok... 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think those sorts of abilities are neat. As long as the monster gets a saving throw, and as long as the powers are written in a logical manner (you shouldn't be able to use your charisma to trick automatons, for example), I think that it makes sense for the rogue to have a few tricks up its sleave that go beyond DM fiat. Spellcasters should not be the only ones with access to such powers. 
Yeah. Why is it OK for a rogue to trick a rich noble into being poorer (pick pocket his coin pouch)? Or trick the castle guard into believing the rogue works for the king (bluff)? But not OK to trick the ogre into stumbling into a trap it wasn't aware of?
So this is the relevant part of the legend and lore article."You can think of these as nonmagical effects that would still require a saving throw or an ability contest to resist. For instance, Shalandra the rogue might contest her Charisma against an ogre's Wisdom. If Shalandra wins, she can trick the ogre into charging forward and blundering into a trap."

I understand where your coming from, but I want to see the rules before I just kick them to the curb. WotC is going to have to be careful here to make sure that these powers don't force creatures into doing obviously stupid things, such as charging through opportunity attacks or moving into traps they are aware off to get at the rogue.

This is okay for non intellegant creatures, but there is no valid reason an intellegant creature should have to fall for such a thing. Nor do I like the idea of such a creaturing being tricked into having to charge forward and into a trap. This should be part of the roleplaying part of the game. Anything like magic shouldn't be given to martial classes and forcing a monster/npc to act in a certain way without being magically compelled is just a breakdown in logic.

I don't think "your father was a kobold's ****" or "stupid oger can't even catch a little halfling" are magical effects...

I mean, what's a bluff check for if you can't convince someone your a lepercaun and if he catches you he get's a pot of gold?


It's the UNintelligent that are immune to tricks.  You can fool albert einstein but you can't fool an avalanche...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

(you shouldn't be able to use your charisma to trick automatons, for example)


To me, it seems like it should actually be easier to trick an automaton than an intelligent creature (which is why I think such an ability should call for an Intelligence save, not a Wisdom save). Computers and other relatively simple machines are easier to manipulate and control than sentient beings. With intelligent creatures, you have to use psychology, whereas with robots, you merely need to give it the right stimuli for the desired reaction. 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

(you shouldn't be able to use your charisma to trick automatons, for example)

Indeed, you should be using Intelligence to trick automotons by preying on their predetermined choices and lack of creativity.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

If you're not a fan of mind-control rogues who steal your free will by talking, then express your displeasure when the next packet and its survey are released.  Mark it as terrible, and if enough people agree with you, they'll flag it as a bad idea and replace it with something better.

The metagame is not the game.

So this is the relevant part of the legend and lore article."You can think of these as nonmagical effects that would still require a saving throw or an ability contest to resist. For instance, Shalandra the rogue might contest her Charisma against an ogre's Wisdom. If Shalandra wins, she can trick the ogre into charging forward and blundering into a trap."

This is okay for non intellegant creatures, but there is no valid reason an intellegant creature should have to fall for such a thing. Nor do I like the idea of such a creaturing being tricked into having to charge forward and into a trap. This should be part of the roleplaying part of the game. Anything like magic shouldn't be given to martial classes and forcing a monster/npc to act in a certain way without being magically compelled is just a breakdown in logic.

This makes the third time the rogue has been messed up, going from bad to worse to somehow even worse. And would also make the first time I have ever banned a class from a game, but I have no desire to deal with a non-magical hypnotist while running a game. If my villian wants to attack the wizard cuase the wizard just burned him with burning hands, he should have the complete option (as an intellegent creature) to completely ignore the rogue no matter what. 

I think this would also qualify as my first "ragequit" for Next, though it is caused by the issue occuring three times in a row with the rogue always causing problems. 


Clearly unfamiliar with the concept of trolling.
(you shouldn't be able to use your charisma to trick automatons, for example)


To me, it seems like it should actually be easier to trick an automaton than an intelligent creature (which is why I think such an ability should call for an Intelligence save, not a Wisdom save). Computers and other relatively simple machines are easier to manipulate and control than sentient beings. With intelligent creatures, you have to use psychology, whereas with robots, you merely need to give it the right stimuli for the desired reaction. 

You can't trick them with Charisma.  No matter how charming your smile, or how sweet your words, it won't follow you to a "bed room'.

You could however trick them with Intelligence.  Notice that it does a swing/swing/shift combo, then you can figure out where to put the trap down to.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So this is the relevant part of the legend and lore article."You can think of these as nonmagical effects that would still require a saving throw or an ability contest to resist. For instance, Shalandra the rogue might contest her Charisma against an ogre's Wisdom. If Shalandra wins, she can trick the ogre into charging forward and blundering into a trap."

This is okay for non intellegant creatures, but there is no valid reason an intellegant creature should have to fall for such a thing. Nor do I like the idea of such a creaturing being tricked into having to charge forward and into a trap. This should be part of the roleplaying part of the game. Anything like magic shouldn't be given to martial classes and forcing a monster/npc to act in a certain way without being magically compelled is just a breakdown in logic.

This makes the third time the rogue has been messed up, going from bad to worse to somehow even worse. And would also make the first time I have ever banned a class from a game, but I have no desire to deal with a non-magical hypnotist while running a game. If my villian wants to attack the wizard cuase the wizard just burned him with burning hands, he should have the complete option (as an intellegent creature) to completely ignore the rogue no matter what. 

I think this would also qualify as my first "ragequit" for Next, though it is caused by the issue occuring three times in a row with the rogue always causing problems. 


Clearly unfamiliar with the concept of trolling.



Is that what this is? If so....bravo to the OP.
So, hold on: it is not logical for a trickster to use their charisma to fool something into doing something stupid? REALLY!? Ok... 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think those sorts of abilities are neat. As long as the monster gets a saving throw, and as long as the powers are written in a logical manner (you shouldn't be able to use your charisma to trick automatons, for example), I think that it makes sense for the rogue to have a few tricks up its sleave that go beyond DM fiat. Spellcasters should not be the only ones with access to such powers. 

+1

The only thing that I would maybe disagree with is the whole automaton thing. In D&D, being categorized as creatures rather than objects, automatons are assumed to have at least limited sentience. The rest, though, is spot-on. If the Rogue is supposed to give you the tools to play a trickster, then it should actually give you the tools to play a trickster. Actually tricking enemies in combat is a fantastic idea. Let martial characters get nice things too, and don't restrict the archetype's success to DM fiat.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Is that what this is? If so....bravo to the OP.

His Cha check beat our Wis check and we stumbled into a trap thread.  

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

To me, this seemed just an explicit declaration if what had been true all along, to shut up the "classes aren't balanced" whiners. A rogue could try a trick like this ALREADY. In EVERY edition of D&D. (technically, any class could, a rogue just had a better chance of success.) Making the process explicit makes the Balance Brigade shut up, without changing the game one iota.
To me, this seemed just an explicit declaration if what had been true all along, to shut up the "classes aren't balanced" whiners. A rogue could try a trick like this ALREADY. In EVERY edition of D&D. (technically, any class could, a rogue just had a better chance of success.) Making the process explicit makes the Balance Brigade shut up, without changing the game one iota.

If your DM allowed it, sure.  There's a huge difference between stating it explicitly in the rules and leaving it up to the DM, though.  Personally, I wouldn't play in a game that allowed anyone to non-magically mind-control anyone just by talking; I'm fairly certain that most of the DMs I've played under would not allow it, either.

The metagame is not the game.

To a large extent I agree with the OP,  if the system is going to turn the rogue into an instant non-magical hypnotist then I want no part of it.    Like the OP, I'd be just as quick to rage quit over any class that has non-magical - "magic" powers.    

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.      

As the DM,  I would expect the player to role play such situations and if a skill check is required and applicable then I'll ask for one. 

IMO, there are better options than those presented by the designers to fix the rogue class.   There is no need to inject gamist junk into the core system.  The core rogue class shouldn't be designed in a way that conflicts with anyones play style.    



To me, this seemed just an explicit declaration if what had been true all along, to shut up the "classes aren't balanced" whiners. A rogue could try a trick like this ALREADY. In EVERY edition of D&D. (technically, any class could, a rogue just had a better chance of success.) Making the process explicit makes the Balance Brigade shut up, without changing the game one iota.

This man has a point.  how is this any different from a bluff/intimidate check?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

A rogue could try a trick like this ALREADY. In EVERY edition of D&D.

They had some options for it in 4E, but in every other edition is was restricted to DM fiat. Having your entirely schtick always be determined by DM fiat isn't acceptable.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I'm not certain why a mechanical compulsion MUST necessarily translate into a narrative compulsion. Just because the ability forces a creature to take a certain action doesn't mean that there is any magical force at work which compels that action; it is merely a mechanical representation of something very realistic and possible.

To insist that such an ability MUST be non-magical hypnosis is to be willfully obstinate. 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

A rogue could try a trick like this ALREADY. In EVERY edition of D&D.

They had some options for it in 4E, but in every other edition is was restricted to DM fiat. Having your entirely schtick always be determined by DM fiat isn't acceptable.

Yeah.  Imagine if other classes had to put up with that.  So Fighters could attack if the DM said it was ok.  A wizard could cast a spell if the DM said that it would work.  We might as well not have any rules.  On the plus side, the books will be VERY cheap.

If your DM allowed it, sure.  There's a huge difference between stating it explicitly in the rules and leaving it up to the DM, though.


In a game in which pretty much EVERY group has a different set of houserules?  No, not really.
    Personally, I wouldn't play in a game that allowed anyone to non-magically mind-control anyone just by talking; I'm fairly certain that most of the DMs I've played under would not allow it, either.



Really?  What game have you been playing?  'Cause I've been playing D&D.

Seriously, what did you think the Charisma score was for?     

Imagine if other classes had to put up with that. So Fighters could attack if the DM said it was ok. A wizard could cast a spell if the DM said that it would work. We might as well not have any rules.

Exactly!

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
The 3.5 knight's very similar abilities had limitations based on sharing a language and intelligence (varying slightly from ability to ability.) There's no particular reason that explicit rogue tricks can't work the same way. If you can't bluff a zombie in general, you might not be able to bluff a zombie with your rogue tricks.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.

I don't think anyone said or implied it would....

As the DM,  I would expect the player to role play such situations and if a skill check is required and applicable then I'll ask for one.

Right.

The rogues just get's a bonus to taunt someone into chasing them....

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If your DM allowed it, sure.  There's a huge difference between stating it explicitly in the rules and leaving it up to the DM, though.


In a game in which pretty much EVERY group has a different set of houserules?  No, not really.


Yes really. Imagine, if you will, that a wizard's magical ability was one paragraph of suggestions about how magic might be used. So as a wizard, you have to imagine what kind of spell you're wanting to cast, what its effects, range, and rolls might be, and ask the DM if that will work.

If it's something your class is intended to be able to do (casting spells for wizards, tricking enemies for rogues), it should have concrete mechanics, so that the DM has to explicitly go out of his way to change how it works if he wants to. That's the only way to keep it fair to players. 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

Yeah.  Imagine if other classes had to put up with that. 



They do.  They always have.,  Perhaps you missed people in the other threads declaring loudly how in *their* games, wizards can't fly (or teleport, or use wish, or whatever) because of a suddenly appearing "anti-magic shield!" etc.
There is no such thing as "DM fiat."  All D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs.  Always have been.  If you wanted a game with immutable rules, you should have been playing chess. 
The 3.5 knight's very similar abilities had limitations based on sharing a language and intelligence (varying slightly from ability to ability.) There's no particular reason that explicit rogue tricks can't work the same way. If you can't bluff a zombie in general, you might not be able to bluff a zombie with your rogue tricks.

Yeah, but zombies are idiots that will fall for anything.  You can run across a rug and they'll follow you, right up until you pull that very same rug out from under them and laugh.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.


Keywords. It's all about keywords. A taunt-type ability could easily be categorized as a charm effect, or some entirely new keyword that mindless creatures can be immune or resistant to. Or better yet, invent the Taunt keyword, with a built-in rule that any CHA-based taunt effect becomes INT-based against creatures that are Taunt-resistant, so you can still manipulate them, but only by knowing what kind of stimulus you need to control them.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.

I don't think anyone said or implied it would....



We shall see .  IMO, the rules must say that it doesn't work that way.  Otherwise some players will insist that it does.   


As the DM,  I would expect the player to role play such situations and if a skill check is required and applicable then I'll ask for one.

Right.

The rogues just get's a bonus to taunt someone into chasing them....




Taunt is one option, but what about all the others?   Untill the next playtest is made available there is way to know for sure.    


There is no such thing as "DM fiat." All D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs.

If your second sentence is true, shouldn't the first one be "Everything is DM fiat."?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.

I don't think anyone said or implied it would....

We shall see .  IMO, the rules must say that it doesn't work that way.  Otherwise some players will insist that it does.

Wait, so I can't stand on the other side of a hole and scream "Here cubey cubey!  Come get some tasty adventurer!" and, in doing so, "trick" it into coming after my tasty self so that it falls down the hole?

I mean, there's been published adventures where stuff like that goes on.  Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Yeah.  Imagine if other classes had to put up with that. 



They do.  They always have.,  Perhaps you missed people in the other threads declaring loudly how in *their* games, wizards can't fly (or teleport, or use wish, or whatever) because of a suddenly appearing "anti-magic shield!" etc.
There is no such thing as "DM fiat."  All D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs.  Always have been.  If you wanted a game with immutable rules, you should have been playing chess. 


The thing is, most players assume that the game will use the rules as written in the book, except as declared beforehand by the DM. A DM that constantly changes how rules and abilities work during games (particularly if he's inconsistent) often gains a reputation as a bad DM.

For example, when I was running my 4E game, I had ONE house-rule, until it was errata'd into an actual rule. Because of this, my players knew exactly what to expect, mechanics-wise, from my game. They could make informed decisions about their character's abilities, and what actions to take, etc. 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

Another end of the world thread...  I give you this though...  At least you didn't wait for the actual package to start the freak out fest. 
For example, when I was running my 4E game, I had ONE house-rule, until it was errata'd into an actual rule. Because of this, my players knew exactly what to expect, mechanics-wise, from my game. They could make informed decisions about their character's abilities, and what actions to take, etc. 

I had 2.

Marks ending when unconious, and zones being 1/turn.  Both have been errated in.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

There is no such thing as "DM fiat." All D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs.

If your second sentence is true, shouldn't the first one be "Everything is DM fiat."?



I don't think either idea is true.  While all D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs, the negotiations involves following the rules the vast majority of the time.   DM Fiat is the times when the DM deviates from those rules.

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.

I don't think anyone said or implied it would....

We shall see .  IMO, the rules must say that it doesn't work that way.  Otherwise some players will insist that it does.

Wait, so I can't stand on the other side of a hole and scream "Here cubey cubey!  Come get some tasty adventurer!" and, in doing so, "trick" it into coming after my tasty self so that it falls down the hole?

I mean, there's been published adventures where stuff like that goes on.  Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?



Sure you can. Even if you're a fighter or a wizard. Why should something like that be a special rogue ability?

Such abilities will not work on Gelatinous cubes or other creatures like mindless undead who are immune to charm spells.

I don't think anyone said or implied it would....

We shall see .  IMO, the rules must say that it doesn't work that way.  Otherwise some players will insist that it does.

Wait, so I can't stand on the other side of a hole and scream "Here cubey cubey!  Come get some tasty adventurer!" and, in doing so, "trick" it into coming after my tasty self so that it falls down the hole?

I mean, there's been published adventures where stuff like that goes on.  Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?



No, not unless you can speak Gelatinous Cube.       Besides the wizard is closer and the cube is rather hungry at the moment.  



There is no such thing as "DM fiat." All D&D games are negotiations between players and DMs.

If your second sentence is true, shouldn't the first one be "Everything is DM fiat."?



Nope.  "Fiat" implies an autonomous decision.  "Negotiation" is more accurate. 
So just to ask, how is this diffrent from bluff check to make a feint?

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

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