So, what is the new money sink?

As a DM, I had one question while reading the rules and running the Isle of Dread. With magic items removed from economy why do players need so much gold? 
Wasn't one of the early goals of 5e changing gold to silver and creating a real respect for money?

I hated it in 3.x+ that players always treated money as unimportant. You either had not enough to get that next magic item you wanted or you had way to much to care how much you gave to beggars, informants or city officials or almost any non-magic item.

Now there are no magic items shops, magic items don't cost gold anymore but players still get way too much gold. And they got nowhere to spend it. At least not within game rules.

I would really like to see more effort in 5e towards simulating a real medevil economy. Now with removing magic items from every corner it is about time. If players need to deal with most problems they need to in real life (except paperwork and thank the gods of DnD for that :D) they should also need to with the most important one: money.

Also I got a suggestion about equipment. Collecting stuff was always fun in DnD. Now with magic items taking a lesser role (especially permanent ones) I  would like to see new stuff added for players to collect. Either different alchemical stuff or one shot lesser magic items. 
Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved had many of such items and they were fun.
Starcraft Saga Edition: http://sc2se.wikispaces.com/
I completely agree with you and posted a similar question when the magic item packet came out.

Here are a couple of my random ideas to spend money on:


  • healing potions and healing kits

  • NPC wizard/cleric spells

  • hirelings and henchmen

  • paying off local law enforcement for the drunk dwarf's unruly behavior in the tavern after the dungeon delve

  • character training under the best warrior/wizard/priest in the land (to learn a new maneuver or spell perhaps)

  • buying that strange looking map from strangely cunning tavern wench (spoiler alert: she's a Dragon/Demon/Vampire/Lich/Fey Queen in disguise! Probably not a trap to get that new relic they found....)

  • horses and barding

  • a suitable base of operations for the party

  • a lab for the wizard

  • a NEW lab for the wizard because that Outsider he summoned blew the place up (we told him not to insult the guys mother!)

  • a masterwork suit of armor for the warrior

  • a good supply of flasks/vials of poisons, acids, wildfire, and alchemist goo

  • a ticket to the Princess's upcoming wedding (I hear it's gonna be a bitchin' party and their evil arch-nemisis is gonna be there!)

  • grease-money for the one hobgoblin sympathetic to the human town....use him to infiltrate the bandit gang and stop their attacks once and for all!

  • the party's house is too small....build a small keep outside of city walls!


I completely realize that most of this stuff is roleplaying stuff. I'd like to see a short section in the rule books devouted to things like this. Even if it was just a random table or list of ideas.

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Without magic items gold is more worthless than it has ever been. I would assume healing potions will be what most people spend their gold on now.
Well, you don't need to hand out lots of cash with every adventure.  It's not as though there's a high cost of living, or anything.  If the party happens upon a huge treasure hoard, then it's pretty much a plot device, just like it was before 3E.

It's entirely viable to go from 1 - 20 without making 10,000 GP along the way.

The metagame is not the game.

I agree with the majority of these posts. I'd really like to see the return to the older, more conservative use of money in D&D.  A good example is when a group of low-level adventurers must scrounge for enough money to pay for a 1-night stay in an expensive inn. It makes for great role-playing when, as a DM, you can emphasize the difference between social classes. I mean, most adventurers should not have the same economic ability as wealthy merchants or nobles. There is a reason why they need to adventure - it's how they make a living! If, by 5th level, adventurers have enough gold to buy whatever they want, I find it hard to justify why they would continue to put their lives on the line? Questing for wealth can be a simple/strong motivation for adventurering parties, but this is rendered useless (as a DM tool) at very low levels with the current currency system in use in D&DNext.
I agree with the majority of these posts. I'd really like to see the return to the older, more conservative use of money in D&D.  A good example is when a group of low-level adventurers must scrounge for enough money to pay for a 1-night stay in an expensive inn. It makes for great role-playing when, as a DM, you can emphasize the difference between social classes. I mean, most adventurers should not have the same economic ability as wealthy merchants or nobles. There is a reason why they need to adventure - it's how they make a living! If, by 5th level, adventurers have enough gold to buy whatever they want, I find it hard to justify why they would continue to put their lives on the line? Questing for wealth can be a simple/strong motivation for adventurering parties, but this is rendered useless (as a DM tool) at very low levels with the current currency system in use in D&DNext.

good point. I definitely agree with you.

But the problem I see is this: What rewards can/should the DM give out instead of gold?

Clearly, if gold (and experience) is the default reward, then you're going to saturate the PC's with too much currency at low levels -- especially now that they cant save up to buy magic items.

So what else can they receive as reward for an adventure that both FEELS like a good reward without overbalancing the game economy?

I think the DMG needs a good section on non-XP/non-gold/non-magicitem rewards.

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

Just speaking as someone who DMed a lot of 4E, I really came to loathe that system of gold and magic items.  The majority of the groups I DMed viewed gold/any kind of fungible treasure as a means to magic items.  100% of the player's gold went to magic items and for me, my DMing style, I felt this was bad for the game.  Saying that gold is useless if it can't be spent on magic items really disappoints me.  I want my players to spend it on their desires.  Phat loot being entirely about numbers and power levels has its place, but doesn't anybody wanna buy a castle anymore?  A horse?  An airship?  I think there's a reasonable middle ground here which is a way of saying I don't have the answer.

I think wealth by level guidelines in 4E got out of hand quickly.  I felt this was because there was an expectation that gold would be used for magic items, not to achieve story goals like purchasing land or ransoming family members.  What would your players do if they suddenly had way too much money?  In 4E everyone would rush to get magic items.  I think its an interesting question I'm actually planning on throwing out there in my next Next game.

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

Emphasis on the use of "lesser" currency (like copper and silver) in the beginning/lower levels could do much to alleviate the problem of players accumulating too much wealth (gold bloat is a factor that can effectively devalue currency rewards, even at low levels of the game).  Also, there are alternatives to the typical gold & items rewards that D&D has yet to really bring to the table.  

Taking an example from other RPGs, one option would be to give out rewards in the form of "assets" that players can utilize.  For example, once the party completes the quest for the wizard/noble/wealthy merchant, notify them that, as a reward for completing the quest, they now have gained an "NPC asset" that would allow them to have access to a boon relating to and provided by an NPC/group.  This reward should be limited in scope and use.  Possibilities for this type of reward system might come in the form of tutelage (learning or retraining of a trade, skill, or spell), networking (charters/endorsements from local nobles or communities), a single use access to a high level cleric/wizard spell/ritual (i.e. Teleportation, Resurrection, etc.), discounts on product purchases (i.e. horses, basic items, potions, etc.), or (at higher levels) even titles, honors, land, and holdings (I believed the developers talked about these things when describing the "Legacy" system they are working on).
Great thread with a lot of good input.

I tend to use a lot of customization within each campaign for the rewards of completing tasks or quests, etc.  Respected status at the Keep (the castellan looks to the group when trouble arises, supports the group when possible, etc) might be one reward for thwarting a significant threat to the area.  Free stay at the inn for service to the innkeeper's in-laws.  Reduced cost and free minor repairs at the blacksmith's after avenging his dog's mutilation.  A good country meal with all the fixin's for slaying the rabid dire wolf that was killing the farmer's sheep.  As the group levels, the rewards become more exotic, but more about bringing the world to life and not just about loot.  One of my 4E campaigns is set in the Chaos Scar, and when Lord Drysdale was killed by assassins, he left the keep's guardianship to the players' characters.  It wasn't just a boon, though, as they suddenly had servants, militia to maintain, etc., etc.  The focus of the campaign had a shift and eventually, the group hired a castellan (of sorts) to run their estate because it was interfering with their adventuring (of course, troubles arose with them away resulting in more twists in the campaign's plot).

As for coins, which are still found, looted, and rewarded as well, I tend to play a more tightly controlled world of magic.  Just because magic items have a price doesn't mean they are available to buy, much less available to buy at the "listed price."  No Magik 'R Us shops with shelves full of every available item.  Often, getting the magic items through purchase is a quest in itself.  Perhaps they are remotely located and there's risk and much higher costs involved in getting it.  Perhaps the characters need to recover rare material components necessary to have the item crafted.  Perhaps dealins with a blackmarket are necessary, with all it's inherent trappings.  I've even had a character duped into buying what he thought was a highly coveted magic item only to discover later, through trial and error (and only after growing suspicious after some oddities in results), it was a fake (this spawned a whole new "quest" for the group - seek revenge and recovery of lost wealth).

Plus, I have always encouraged thinking beyond just character combat equipment.  Some players will never break from the it's-all-about-encounters mentality, but most actually start to see the fun, and even some benefits, to having a character that's part of the world, not just a sheet of paper to use in combat.

Also, my groups tend to reserve or use coins for healing, curative, etc., potions, rituals, and the like.  Those tend to be coin sinks to some degree (from early on Healing Kits to the expensive potions later on).  

To be honest, though, I have no problem with players who do find ways to amass wealth in the game if that's their goal.
 
Not sure if it would work for all groups and DMs, but that's how I deal with wealth and rewards.
I ran into this problem with the "evil" campaign I'm running when the party knocked over a jewelry store (it's my own damn fault for letting them into a jewelry store).

So next they went to the richest city in the country where the prices are exorbitant and the security is daunting.
So I have not read the Island of Dread Adventure yet, (Running Caves ATM). You could have a  HIGH cost of getting off the Island and getting back to the main land. I would also use excessive treasure as a good plot device.  For example. On thier way back, as they near the main land the ship runs up on some rocks, and sinks, and now too get their treasure they have to do a "raise the ship" type adventure. Potenial for lots of role play fun. Maybe on the way back they get attacked and overrun by pirates. Now they have to go on the trail of the pirates. But,  have to buy a ship... might be a while before they they get that treasure back. Or put both together, they run the ship on rocks and when they come back to raise the ship, pirates are there looting the ship. This could make for a funny on running campaign joke, where there is a lot of treasure, that is always just out of reach, and evey time they have thier hands on it, something happens and they loose it.
Some of you misunderstood this as me looking for ideas on how to force players to spend money through quests and roleplaying. That is not a problem, that can always be done. But what do I need rules for then?

I am trying to make wizards see how their magic item changes influence more then just magic items.

If you read DM pdf, it has instructions about how much gold you should give them per encounter based on how hard the enounter is. And based on those numbers players will have too much gold and no way to spend it by the rules.
I want game mechanics that force players to spend money or a economy overhaul for 5e.  
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Ok, you want to come up with an economy for your system.  Put yourself in Medieval times...
Lets start simple, in a fudal system.

Per Day Costs.>Food 1sp per day, Water 1sp per day(1 gallon refilled water skin).

Every So Often Costs.>clothing 15 gp fine cloths, Weapon Upgrades such as masterwork equipment +300gp, sharpen swords 10% of total cost, pound out dents in armour 10%, buy a new tent, Sleep and meals at Inns, yearly Guild dues, ect.


Here is an idea, how much does 1000gp weigh? According to the rules its 20lbs. So unless you want to carry all that weight, you have to put it in ye olde bank, and I am sure you can have a cost associated with that. Maybe 5% per year.
 
Your going want have to buy a Horse; riding 250gp, farming 350gp, war 500gp. Feeding and upkeep horse, 5sp per day.

Lets say you want to buy a ship (cost,carpenter cost). Row boat (250gp,125gp) Picard small single masted (500gp, 250gp) Cog small boat for shipping (1000gp,750gp), Caravel dual masted for ocean travel (10,000gp, 9,000gp) Longship (25,000gp, 23,500gp)  War Gally(50,000gp, 47,000gp)

Let say that you purchase a house, a amall house costs 2,500 gp (or the cost of plate armor) your going to pay tax to the Lord of the Land, say 10% of house cost 250 gp per year. Your going to have to upkeep your house. 10% per year 250gp (unless your a carpenter or mason).

To accully own land you have to be appointed a lordship. Which is only attainable by deeds, valor, or the purchaced 10,000 acres (15 miles) of land at 50gp per acre from the king totaling 500,000gp , and must build a Simple Stone Keep for 50,000 gp (ten times the cost of plate armor). Now you pay 2.5% of land and keep (550,000gp) to the king in tax per year = 13,750gp. Which means you would have to have minimum 55 serfs to paying 250gp per year to pay the kings tax. Now with serfs comes lordly responsibilities such as having mercenaries or guards to protect them. 15 gaurds at 1gp per day (food, board and equipment included) Thats 5,475gp per year. 

Building city walls and a castle would be next.
I this what you mean?
That is good but only works for people that want to roleplay landowners and nobles. Those that just want to be adventurers have thousands of gold and no way to spend it.
Starcraft Saga Edition: http://sc2se.wikispaces.com/
Hey all,

Since this isn't a session report I'll be moving it to D&D Next General Discussion.

Thanks!

Monica
Medieval economy was more land based then gold based. Trade was still very often done barter style. Like wheat for a duck, and duck eggs for timber. You couldn't eat gold, it doesn't keep you warm, so it was little use to pesants. Only nobles really used it.

It wasn't untill the renacance that money really became the base trade good for other people. When people could start thinking beyond the basic needs, and nobles started wanting other things, like fancy cloths and art. And the merchant class started growing.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The easy way to do it is simply stop giving out treasure as a 'reward'.  Stop fussing over money; just assume the PCs have sufficient cash to buy food, re-stock their ammo and such, and move on.  Stop tracking minutia.

If a PC suddenly wants to make an exorbitant purchase, then acquiring the money to do so (or the item directly) can become part of the story.  You don't have to sweat the party sitting around with tens of thousands/millions of gp buring a hole in their pocket.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Read how Savage Worlds: Beasts and Barbarians deals with money. It is both highly entertaining and an lead to some wonderful RP moments.

Basically the PCs "lose" their money between adventures in one or more interesting ways.
I think the premise of the OP's post is a bit flawed... it's not that magic items don't cost gold anymore, it's that they don't have a price anymore.  The magic item shop may be a thing of the past, or at least no longer an assumed part the default setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean that magic items cannot be purchased.  It just means that, when an adventurer asks "how much for that magic ring?", the owner of said ring may respond "how much do you have?" and negotiations begin.  At best, an item's rarity gives a ballpark value (i.e., a legendary ring of invisibility will cost more than an uncommon ring of water walking), but the rest is a challenge for the Interaction pillar.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

You have to be careful about the extent to which you make treasure rewards not much of a thing that the game does because treasure, at least historically, is a big part of the game's reward structure. The reason that magic items are a great reward and gold that can be used to purchase magic items is a good reward is that those things feed directly back into adventuring. I believe that for most players, rewards of a particular GP value that feed back into adventuring are just orders of magnitude more exciting than ones that do not, especially past the first few. (The first "Your reward is some land!" is a little exciting; the tenth is not.) Not all arbitrary good things that can happen to a character have the same effect on player happiness.

The DM guidelines for Next don't seem to have fully adjusted to the notion that large amounts of gold don't mean the same thing as they have in previous editions. They're not fractions of exciting things any longer. They're just... money. Some of the suggestions in this thread about what to do with gold in a world where gold isn't fractions of cool stuff are interesting, but I don't think that "Cool! Gold! Now I have something that can be siphoned away by the medieval economics simulator attached to this adventuring game!" is a great long-term solution. Reevaluating what gold can be used for also requires reevaluating how it's rewarded.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Well, you don't need to hand out lots of cash with every adventure.  It's not as though there's a high cost of living, or anything.  If the party happens upon a huge treasure hoard, then it's pretty much a plot device, just like it was before 3E.

It's entirely viable to go from 1 - 20 without making 10,000 GP along the way.



Do me a favor and add up the money in the three included adventures.
Without a purchase price for magical gear, I have absolutely no reason or desire to have gold in the game to waste my time with. They should add in magical gear costs for those who want them, make it modular. If not, I'm not going waste my time trying to bring in mechanics on running a keep or paying a tithe or some moronic feudal "upkeep" tax.
Personally I am still waiting for the sliver economy they discussed at the start of Next. If you are making your own adventures, I would suggest non-coin treasure instead. Jewelry and Artwork can be valueable, but much harder to sell. Gems are also a great option. Considering the Ritual rules, you could have them find Arcane/Divine Components.
If not, I'm not going waste my time trying to bring in mechanics on running a keep or paying a tithe or some moronic feudal "upkeep" tax.



Which is why I would just sweep such minute details under the rug.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I think any game system should allow for non-money treasures. 4E has boons for example. Even magic items can be very useful as treasure if the PCs are not likely to sell the items because they remain useful for the characters over a long period of time. 4E (a non-bounded accuracy system) achieved this through optional automatic increases in to-hit and defense values. With a system like this, item abilities become more important. I like this a lot.
One of the PCs in the game I DM saves money to rebuild his family's keep. Of course, playing Eberron (which has a banking system with checks and promissory notes without the need to carry kilos of cash around with you), a PC will be able to do something like this sometime in Paragon Path (lvl. 11-20). But if you have a tight adventure time schedule and story arc (a campaign covering a year or so in game time), wanting to stop adventuring because you want to build a keep is not an option, since building a keep will take years and the PC will want to supervise the process (as everybody who built a home in the real world will know). So in the end, a PC/player will have to choose between following the adventure story or building something like a wizard tower or a keep.
Both options should be available in a game system IMO.

Also, I am strongly for making PCs rich in the course of character development. While having to starve because of a lack of money can be fun in lower levels (no, not really), I find it becomes ridiculous at higher levels. After all, I am playing DnD, not Harnmaster. In my opinion, PCs should feel powerful not only through level advancement, but also wealth advancement along with level advancement. If you save a city from mind flayers, the city will be thankful, people will give you credit and free stuff and treat you well. You start to deal and network with powerful people. Which can make you rich, if you play your cards right.

Which brings me to the issue of "money as an incentive for adventuring". I find this does not work, or only for a very short while. In the beginning maybe. IMO, it is much more motivating to have a red line to follow, a mystery to solve or to save the princess, the city, the world, the multiverse. This, not money, is the stuff of legends. It can lead to untold riches, too, but only as a side thing.
However, a system should offer money as the sole incentive as well, for those who have fun with this sort of thing.

Which probably means that there should be no rule mechanic for wealth, only as a guideline for adventure and world building. That way, all players can decide what kind of campaign they want to play and can plan and develop the story accordingly.
Treasure and gold is a great reward, especially when you cannot buy magic items with it and it vastly exceeds any normal costs. Gold is influence in the game world and is a perfect way for players to contribute to crafting the story.  

Hurray, you now have 10,000 pieces of gold. What are you going to do with it? :-)

The game works better when it is about the story, not the fight.
The game works better when it is about the story, not the fight.


Unless the fight is a story and one likes fighting a lot.
Other than that: +1 to what you said.
 I want my players to spend it on their desires.  Phat loot being entirely about numbers and power levels has its place, but doesn't anybody wanna buy a castle anymore?  A horse?  An airship?

Defeat monster, level up, get loot, buy better gear. That's how its supposed to go in World of...I mean D&D.
My two copper.
 I prefer thepre 3rd/4th ed system of gold. 3.0/3.5/PF/4th ed have a magic item supermarket feel to them.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

doesn't anybody wanna buy a castle anymore?  A horse?  An airship?



Well, horse yes, but I haven't heard a player express any interest in a castle since the game stopped the 'you hit 9th level, you're settling down' nonsense, and that was just because they felt they had to.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It seems most legit uses for money outside of magic items are more roleplay-oriented, yes.

There are plenty of ways to soak up money if you really want to though. Horses are a good start. Besides the expense of buying them and their barding, blankets, oats, etc., the party will need to either pay regular stable fees or set up their own home base, which will likely require hiring a stable boy, etc. to take care of things as they adventure.

When they travel, having to board their horse easily doubles the cost of their lodgings. And if you go into combat with your horse, that often doesn't bode well. Most horses are just for transport. If your party is ambushed by orcs, or you leave the horses tied up at the cave entrance while you dive for goodies, chances are excellent you will lose one or two of the animals. Bang, more bucks must be spent.

In regards to home life, it's easy for this to get neglected by the party. But that could be some fun as well. I once had a party who had so much gold around level 13 or 14 they didn't know what to do with it. At that point even most magic items had lost their appeal and they were basically adventuring only to solve mysteries, set wrongs right and discover interesting stories. They had a keep with stables, and a small staff. Unfortunately they then just ignored it. But I kept deducting from their treasury as their keep's expenses warranted. Once they finally went back home, they discovered that their bank account had run dry! Without pay coming, the servants had wandered off. The horses had been stolen, and the keep ransacked as well. A group of thieves had set up shop in the upper levels.

This led to a fun session of "cleaning house", which involved some political encounters as well. The party then spent a bunch of gold and fun times laughing over all the traps, secret passages and other improvements made to prevent this from happening again.

But why have a keep, stables, traps, etc if it isn't FUN? They had the keep and stables just to not have to bother worrying about up-keeping the horses and all their unused treasure and gear, but otherwise it was mostly a GP-sink. A gold sink must not only be useful to work, but must also be fun.

The campaign drew to a close soon thereafter, so I didn't have to worry too much about keeping their keep interesting. But at some point I had considered doing a little reverse dungeon adventure! The heroes would guide and command minions as monsters invaded their keep. :D
You have slaid the dragon, defeated beholders, cleared the land of evil wizards, saved the princess, defeted the evil lord, sailed the seven seas and took every pirate booty. You are level 20+ and you have every magic item in the world, you have 100,000,000,000gp. Now what? What do you do? Welcome to high level play. I say Play a Game of Thrones.... How do you over throw an evil king? Why not lay siege a castle with an army? Where did the army come from? What happens when the king sieges your castle? How about build a wizard tower, or found a magic school, or be a teacher at one (Harry Potter kinda), take over a thieves guild and run it (Den of Thieves modual). How about become a high cleric build a church or found a religion, or slay old gods with the might of your new one.  Those sound like great adventures to me. But its not for everybody, it maybe easier just to start new charictars.
 I want my players to spend it on their desires.  Phat loot being entirely about numbers and power levels has its place, but doesn't anybody wanna buy a castle anymore?  A horse?  An airship?

Defeat monster, level up, get loot, buy better gear. That's how its supposed to go in World of...I mean D&D.



You do know that entire process was pulled directly from D&D right?
 I want my players to spend it on their desires.  Phat loot being entirely about numbers and power levels has its place, but doesn't anybody wanna buy a castle anymore?  A horse?  An airship?

Defeat monster, level up, get loot, buy better gear. That's how its supposed to go in World of...I mean D&D.


I think what I hate most about WoW comparisons is when the thing being compared isn't even how it works in WoW.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
To all those who have mentioned that PCs cannot buy magic items anymore, that is not a hard and fast rule.  It is a playstyle assumption that any DM can freely ignore.  The current playtest packet even includes suggested pricing based on item rarity.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

To all those who have mentioned that PCs cannot buy magic items anymore, that is not a hard and fast rule.  It is a playstyle assumption that any DM can freely ignore.  The current playtest packet even includes suggested pricing based on item rarity.



Exactly. How else are they going to do Eberron?
Yeah, I refuse to play the game if it does not have magic item creation and purchasing and selling. It doesn't have to be super common magic marts on every corner, but it needs to exist and possibly be in big cities...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
To all those who have mentioned that PCs cannot buy magic items anymore, that is not a hard and fast rule.  It is a playstyle assumption that any DM can freely ignore.  The current playtest packet even includes suggested pricing based on item rarity.



Exactly. How else are they going to do Eberron?



Pretty easily, since I've had no problems doing Eberron without it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Yeah there will always be high level purchases.

Magic items for High magic Games
Buildings and Structures for Location based game
Followers and Hirelings for games where Mass combat is important
Spells and Maneuvers for Create Your own style Games

For example, my game is based on building a castle(s), filling it with men, paying upkeep, and conquering land TBS style so "You need more Gold" will eventually be heard.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

To all those who have mentioned that PCs cannot buy magic items anymore, that is not a hard and fast rule.  It is a playstyle assumption that any DM can freely ignore.  The current playtest packet even includes suggested pricing based on item rarity.



Exactly. How else are they going to do Eberron?



Pretty easily, since I've had no problems doing Eberron without it.



Yeah, I don't think they were talking about your personal house ruled version. They were talking about the RAW Eberron where you can buy any magic item from specific houses and magic is so common they hand out +1 weapons as party favors...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It's entirely viable to go from 1 - 20 without making 10,000 GP along the way.

Do me a favor and add up the money in the three included adventures.

I said it's viable to not hand out cash like it's going out of style.  I never said it wasn't equally viable to just give away money and hope your players are creative.

The included adventures are just an example of the latter rather than the former.

The metagame is not the game.

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