Orc Savage Demise + Opportunity attacks + Inmediate Interrupts

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Hi all

I've been lurking on this forums for quite a while, and I'm fairly comfident to have a more than acceptable grab on the 4e rules (that I love, fwiw). But in last evening's game a situation arised so convoluted that I have to be certain we've  handled correctly.

It all comes down to the orc's "Savage Demise" racial power. It grants the orc a standard action when reduced to 0 hit points as a free action. I take it is one of those cases where this free action has to be resolved as an interrupt, otherwise the orc would be dead an thus unable to take any action.

So, this was the layout:

X X X X X W
E A X X X X

Where E was an Orc Troll Shaman.
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Orc Troll Shaman Medium natural humanoid Level 6 Controller (Leader) XP 250 HP 72; Bloodied 36 Initiative +4 AC 20, Fortitude 18, Reflex 18, Will 19 Perception+7 Speed 6 Low-light vision Traits Troll Spirit Frenzy Aura 10 Any ally within the aura that bloodies an enemy can make a basic attack as a free action. Regeneration 5 (healing) The orc troll shaman regains 5 hit points whenever it starts its turn and has at least 1 hit point. If the orc troll shaman takes acid or fire damage, its regeneration does not function on its next turn. Safewing Amulet When the orc troll shaman falls, reduce the distance by 10 feet for the purpose of calculating damage. The orc troll shaman always lands on its feet after a fall. Troll Healing (healing) If the orc troll shaman is dropped to 0 hit points by an attack that does not deal acid or fire damage, it falls prone and remains at 0 hit points until the start of its next turn, when it regains 5 hit points. If an attack deals acid or fire damage to the orc troll shaman while it is at 0 hit points, it is dead. Standard Actions Longspear (weapon) At-Will Attack: Melee 2 (one creature); +11 vs. AC Hit: 2d10 + 3 damage, and the orc slides the target 1 square. Phantom Troll Claws At-Will Attack: Area burst 2 within 10 (enemies in the burst); +8 vs. Will Hit: 2d6 damage, and the target is dazed until the end of the orc’s next turn. Effect: Each ally in the burst gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls until the start of the orc’s next turn. Triggered Actions Savage Demise Encounter Trigger: The orc drops to 0 hit points. Effect (No Action): The orc takes a standard action.

 A was the group's Avenger and W the Warlord.

Avenger's turn, he strikes with Bond Of Foresight
Show
Bond of Foresight A bond of fate links you to your enemy, giving you the ability to foresee its every move. Whenever it moves or attacks you, you’re ready. Daily Divine, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Wisdom vs. AC Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage. Miss: Half damage. Effect: When the target hits or misses you or shifts, the target provokes an opportunity attack from you (save ends).


Orc Turn: Attacks Avenger with Longspear. Hit for 21 damage, bringing him down

- Bond of Foresight activates, and it's an opportunity action, so it Interrupts the Orc Attacks.

MBA Attack: Overwhelming strike - hit for 14 damage, killing the Orc. The avenger shifts one space back, (could he? or does the interrupt triggers before that?) and decide not to slide the Orc, not knowing of his Melee 2 attacks.

X X X X X W
E X A X X X

- Orc Killed: triggers Savage Demise. Since it's a free action, it can be taken on your own turn, unlike opportunity o immediate action.

Orc charges the warlord, passing by the Avenger, who has already used his OA on the orc's turn. Hits the warlord for 17 damage, ko'd him

X X X X E W
X X A X X X

When his free action interrupt ends, we continue resolving actions: the Avenger's Overwhelming Strike is now out of range, so it is wasted, and since the poor fellow moved back, is in range of the Orc original Longspear attack, so he goes down along his comrade.



So the orc took advantage of the Avenger's power to strike, charge and leave unconscious two PC without taking a single hit point of damage. He only lost the Savage Demise use for the encounter.

Was this resolution correct? Did we do something wrong?

On the orc's Melee 2 charge: Does the orc HAVE to move all the way with his Melee 2? Could he stop a square before? Must he?

And for an extra layer of complexity, what if this were the layout when the charge strikes:?

X X X E W
X X A X X

Allowing the Avenger to use his Multiclass Fighter Battle Awareness Interrupt Attack? If this attacks hits doing enough damage to kill the orc, would that invalidate all the rest of the attacks and effects?

One player argued that since the orc had charged, he couldn't take any more actions on his turn, and the DM (and me) thought that correct, but that the first attack on the Avenger was an action already taken, waiting for resolution, and not an action to be taken. The shaman could not move after the free action charge, but the Avenger was hit, right?

We found Savage Demise extremely challenging, and a small bunch of orcs is kicking our **** day after day, but I want to make sure of the whole situation.

Many, many thanks in advance



Caedes

A few points:

Bond of Foresight's OA kills the Orc, this renders invalid the attack that triggered the OA.

Savage Demise is a no action, not a free action.  It does not have interrupt timing, it simply happens.  The orc is already dead, but these sort of no action abilities are specifically meant to allow after-death effects.  Being dead means you can't take actions, but because it's a no action you can do it.  Yes, the power says "the orc takes a standard action" but that's a specific exception to the general rules about being dead.

So, the Avenger's OA has completely and fully resolved when the Orc takes his action.  This is really the key point.  The OA resolves, invalidating the triggering attack - full stop.  Then we go to the next step, Savage Demise.

If the Orc then charges the Warlord, the Avenger is correctly not able to do anything about it, having already used his opportunity action for the turn.  The Orc is still dead, and keels over after completing his charge. 

If the Avenger has Battle Awareness, and attacks the Orc as an interrupt on the charge, it won't do any good.  The orc is already dead.  He's charging through a no action effect.  Even if it did infinite damage, it wouldn't prevent the attack.  You could prevent the attack if the Avenger's attack did something else to invalidate the attack, beyond killing the target, such as moving the Orc out of range of the target (such as a Power of Skill Overwhelming Strike, which is highly useful for exactly that purpose), but simply dealing damage to the Orc doesn't do anything, because the Orc's already dead, and doing the charge as a no action.

There is an exception to the "your turn ends" bit in the charge rules, and that is that you can take Free Actions.  No Action effects also can happen, as well.

The charge rules have also been changed from their original printing, you are no longer required to stop at the farthest away point you can attack from if you have Reach.  You can choose where you want to stop.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ok, so I've looked again at the stats and you're right. And thanks for the real quick answer!

But... the Orc Troll Shaman is the ONLY orc I've seen with Savage Demise as a No Action. All the rest (and thus it was asumed OTS also) has as a Free action or, in the case of Orc Wolf Shaman as an Inmediate Interrupt. (¿?). Maybe it has something to do with his troll blood... Wink

So let's assume it is a Free Action, after all, as most of the remaining orcs.

How would the situation be handled in that case?
Exactly the same.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Exactly the same.




The same as what? the original or Mand's post?

Thank you
As Mand's post.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
A Triggerred Free action resolve as an Immediate Reaction unless it needs to interrupt in order to function.  In this case it needs to.

So in either case the Orc has started being reduced to 0 hit points but hasn't finished yet when he act throught Savage Demise, or he already has and still do anyways. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I'm sorry but I don't get it.

If Savage Demise is a No Action, then the Orc takes it when he's already dead. So any additional damage it may take, (Battle awareness, our Paladin's Mark, zones, etc) do nothing to stop the action, for it changes nothing on the enemy.

If it is a Free Action, as in most of all Orc entries, then the action is taken just before it goes down to 0 hit points because, as Plague pointed out, it needs to be an interrupt or else the orc would be dead and thus unable to take actions. But in this case, if it suffers more damage, bringing him down to 0 hp again, why doesn't this foil the standard action? He's now at 0 hit points and having used Savage Demise already. Savage Demise does not make him Immune All Damage during its Granted Standard action, doesn't it?

Again on our example, with BA thrown in the mix, and please consider Savage Demise as a Free Action, for it would help any other future cases we may have: ours is a group with a lot of off-turn actions (Warlord's Vengeance is Mine, an Artificer's Shocking feedback, Battle Awareness, Paladin's Mark...).

Correct if I'm wrong, but don't Interrupt actions resolve as a LIFO queue?
So


  • Orc attack (hit)


    • trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?


      • trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)


        • trigger Battle Awar (hit, kill orc)


      • charge lost due to orc dead


    • Opp attack wasted (and avenger does NOT get to shift thanks to Overwhelming strike, target already dead)


  • Orc attack wasted, dead



  • Orc attack (hit)


    • trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?


      • trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)


        • trigger Battle Awar (miss, or hit w/o enough damage)


      • charge ko's the Warlord


    • Opp attack hit (and avenger does get to shift thanks to Overwhelming strike), killing the orc


  • Orc attack wasted, dead


Now suppose Orc under Divine Sanction, and the 5-square initial layout


  • Orc attack (hit)


    • trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?


      • trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)


        • trigger Paladin's Divine Sanction (not enough damage to kill orc)


      • charge ko's the Warlord


    • Opp attack wasted, as now target is beyond power's range, and orc still alive, but with Savage Demise expended for the encounter


  • Orc attack hit thanks to his Melee 2 range, ko'ing the Avenger.

  • Orc cannot do any more actions, for it charged this turn.


Are these correct?


If not, can you put a step-by-step resolution process?


Also, thins make me wonder exactly what are the atomic elements of an interrupted action? Each square of movement, the to-hit roll, the damage roll... what about conditions granted by the hit? what about effects of the power?


Thank you all in advance

Sorry for the double-post, but I take that in the last example above, the Paladin's Divine Sanction Damage would've been triggered by the initial attack on the Avenger, and not on the former charge.

It's just an example for the sake of the argument, please assume any other form of damage (a harming zone, another player's Interrupts) that does not enough to kill the Orc.

Again, sorry for the mistake
You would be correct about the end result (Orc gets killed by the Battle Awareness, and having already used Savage Demise, is now simply dead and unable to complete the Savage Demise Charge) EXCEPT: The Orc could have charged to a square in which you couldn't Battle Awareness him.

And yes, if you fail to kill the orc with an Interrupt to his Charge attack, he will complete his initial attack on the Avenger (because the action was already taken) but be unable to take any further actions.

Savage Demise, and really, all Death/Bloody triggers should either be Immediates (and thus unusable on your turn) or No Actions (and thus don't necessarilly prevent you from dying)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
A Triggerred Free action resolve as an Immediate Reaction unless it needs to interrupt in order to function.  In this case it needs to.


Because the designation as being a Free Action is an error.  Death burst effects are always supposed to be No Action, not Free Action.  They can't be interrupts.  Making them interrupts is wrong, an error on the part of the writer of the monster, and should be referred to the Errata team for correction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Are you sure of that?

The wildly different outcomes of being a Free Action vs. a No action makes me feel that it is, indeed, intended.

As a No Action, the orc, could charge across the battlefield, taking a hundred points of damage, ignoring damaging zones, auras, opportunity attacks, interrupts, and, after that, die. But he couldn't had any chance of surviving, as he's already dead.

As a Free Action he could just move away of the slaying attack range, thus turning the hit into a miss. But another damaging enough attack would bring him down.

It's very different. what makes you so sure of the No Action as the correct way of implementing it?


As an aside, Mand12, I'd love to hear your take on the resolution steps as a Free Action on the former post.


Thanks for your patience.
Consider an actual death burst.  There are lots of creatures that do this, they literally blow up  when they die. 

If that blowing up interrupts and kills the thing attacking them, then they don't die.  But if they don't die, then why did they blow up?

The rules are clear, but there's a logical paradox.  A paradox that's solved by requiring all death bursts to have reaction timing, at the fastest.


Yes, if you have a free action triggered by "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" then it must be an interrupt to function, because "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" causes unconsciousness (death for NPCs), and the application of the "You can't take actions." effect, which would prevent you from using a free action.  Which then, as per the triggered free action rules, requires it to be an interrupt.  And as an interrupt, your interpretation is correct.

But the problem is they can't be an interrupt, due to the logical paradox presented above.  Which is why labeling "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" as free actions is an error, and a demonstration that the writer of the feature doesn't fully understand the implications of the designation.

The "must be an interrupt to function" argument, on its face, correct, but it misses an important subtlety.  The point of that rule is to prevent changing something that has already resolved, as a reaction.  That's a no-no, you need to be an interrupt to do that.  It does not mean that running into the "You can't take actions" rule means that you then trigger the "it must be an interrupt to function" clause.  That's like saying a free action that has a trigger that happens to go off when you're also afflicted with Stunned at the same time as the trigger (such as "you become bloodied") then functions as an interrupt.  No, it doesn't - it's still a reaction, and you can't use it due to being nailed by the Stunned condition and you can't take actions, including the free action you would have wanted to use.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are legitimate "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" triggers that are interrupts, but they're actually specified as such.  But that particular trigger does not play well with the general triggered free action timing rules, hence the discrepancy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I understand taht a death burst should be a No action. That's clear.

There are only two things I don't like about your reasoning on the "it has to be a No action" argument.


  • You defend it from a fluff pow. Of course I respect that, but I'd like to take as analytical a view as possible. It is what it is, let's forget why it is. I know, I know, it's an RPG and so on, but please indulge me. Also, the real thing is that the orc does not blow up. In fact, there's some Orc entries on the MM and MV that make Savage Demise as a "the orc makes a Basic Attack" and not "takes a Standard Action".



  • The Interrupt frequently form paradoxes. The Avenger with Battle Awareness and Power of Skill of the example. In a typical numpad position "Avenger at 2, Enemy at 5, ally at 8" position, the enemy attacks the ally, triggering the BA interrupt, hit, the avenger shifts to 1 and slides the enemy to 2, out of range. The enemy's attack is wasted... but then if it wasted, what triggered the Battle Awareness on the first place?




All in all, I'm happy to see that we managed to get the chain of resolution right.

Thank you. And please forgive any grammar mistake, english is not my native tongue
It is what it is, let's forget why it is.


This perspective excludes the possibility that what it is is wrong.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The paradox is caused by Interrupt taking place when its trigger occurs, but before it finishes, possibly invalidating it in the process.

An Orc hasn't been reduced to 0 hit point when Savage Demise triggers as a free action as it resolve before it happens.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

But the point is that such death effects shouldn't be interrupts.

And, as that power is written - it's not.  Since it's a No Action.  There are a lot of other similar effects that are also no action.  All the ones that aren't are errors, and should be referred to the Errata team.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That power has several different action type depending on the creature:

Severed Eyes Orc Slasher - Savage Demise (Immediate Interrupt)
Battlertested Orc  - Savage Demise (Free action)
Severed Eyes Orc Bludgeoner - Savage Demise (No Action


 To name a few...

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I was using the one that was quoted in the OP.

And the demonstration of inconsistency on the part of the writers does not change what the rule should be.

And yes, I am confident in stating what the rule should be. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Interrupt powers triggering upon being reduced to 0 hit point are not errors. They are specifically made to interrupt their trigger and give the possibility to invalidate the triggering action and cause it to be lost.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

What does the word "Demise" mean?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Do you really want to start analyzing 4E Power names and their supposed definition cause many are irrevelant you know ?

Ignore Weakness doesn't really ignores anything if your saving throw doesn't succeed for exemple Wink

And there's worse...

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Oh, I know.

My point, however, is that RAI is important.  And, beyond that, even beyond RAI, there is what the rules should be.  The configuration that makes the rules as effective as they can be at the overall goals of the system.

Is it rigorously defensible?  No, of course not.  But I stand by the judgment nonetheless.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
RAI is impossible to tell because we have no way to know if those powers were intended to use the action they were given or not.

You could may be make a case for the versions of Savage Demise triggerred as a free action but not really for those triggerred as an immediate interrupt as they are pretty obvious they are meant to interrupt.


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

RAI is impossible to specify, but it's not impossible to generate a reasonable estimate for it.

And I am making the case that even the interrupt ones should be no action, based on the effect interrupts have on the system, the name of the power, the fluff of the creatures that have it, and the result that no action accomplishes all of the goals with none of the self-inconsistencies.

It's an evaluation of a design.  It's not rigorously dispassionate and disinterested, no, but it is grounded.

It's for similar reasons that I reject the updated wording of Flaming Weapon, and the same process by which I analyze the Next playtest.  Only, it's applied to an existing system.

The fundamental, core assumption that you have to accept to do this is that the system isn't written perfectly, and that there are things that deserve errata.  Not just taking the design in a new direction but rather that mistakes were made in executing the goals of the design.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious.  But by RAW, they are not.

And since it's an interupt (or a free action that needs to act as an interupt), they can be used to escape death.  Minotaurs also do this.  It's quite fun to run around with 2 HP and eldrich strike 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The power quoted by the OP is not an interrupt.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The power quoted by the OP is not an interrupt.


No, it isn't. You're right

I also have stated that we thought it was a Free Action, as were the Savage Demise of every other orc in the enconter. I'm more interested in how that power is handled in every possible case, including as a Free Action. After all, this a Rules Q&A. My question was only aimed and the pure mechanic part of the game. The example, as inadequate as was later proven to be, was an actual game situation. It has not one, but two action interrupts, movement that may nullify attacks, enough damage to combatants to take them down... it was convoluted and we wanted to make sure that this situation as we thought was correctly resolved. So ok, you win, the Orc Troll Shaman Savage Demise Power is a No Action. But that was not the answer I was looking for. And  know that I very much appreciate it, but please try to understand my point here.


We have our next session tomorrow. I will try to explain this to the GM and the group. I'm kinda the rules guru, being the one with a DDi sub and who reads this forums and so forth (and the one who bought the books, hehe). We'll let the DM decide how he wants the enemies to be handled, but I think I will proposed to apply the same solution to all of them, whatever that is. So all No Action, Free Action or Interrupt, but all the same. I'm more for the Free Action, if only 'cause it make the defender much more meaningful. It was hopeless to see all that orc minions ignore OA and Divine Sanction/Challenge and charge happily to the squishies.


Btw, the fact is they're not really "orcs", 'cause we're playing on a "Mythic Europe" setting, and the DM looked for zealot, fanatic, berserker-type enemies, and refluffed the Orcs just as he refluffed Kobolds as "Rat-like members of a pestilence Cult". But the stats and powers remained the same.

Thank you all.

Edit: Clarity and spelling

Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious.


True, which got me thinking, if Unconscious means you're unuaware of your surrounding, wouldn't it then mean the Orc is also Blinded ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious.


True, which got me thinking, if Unconscious means you're unuaware of your surrounding, wouldn't it then mean the Orc is also Blinded ?


I'm not convinced, now, that the orc is actually deceased at the time it's performing the no action attack.  Below 0 hitpoints, yes, but not yet dead.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It is. The Orc has completly finished being reduced to 0 hit point whem Savage Demise take effect.

According to Others Triggered Effects rules it behaves like an Immediate Reaction, which means the triggering action or event occurs and is completely resolved before the reaction takes place.

RC 195 Immediate Reactions: An immediate reaction lets a creature act in response to a trigger. The triggering action or event occurs and is completely resolved before the reaction takes place.

 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

There's a timing gap between 0 hit points and death for monsters?  Because while I know the rules say "monsters usually die when their hit points drop to 0", I always thought that was for effects that prevent them from dying (the example cited is an adventurer choosing to knock the monster unconscious).  If 0 hp = death unless some other effect prevents death, a monster that's reduced to 0 hit points can't make actions.  If Savage Demise does not function as an interrupt, there's no way the attack can be made without severe penalties (blind + prone), nor could you possibly charge with it (0 hit points = unconsciousness/death = prone by default).

Obviously the intent is that yes, you could, but there is no language whatsoever indicating the Orc has special exemption from the normal state of the rules.  This is as much of a problem as Savage Demise invalidating it's own trigger, IMO. 
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
There's a timing gap between 0 hit points and death for monsters?  Because while I know the rules say "monsters usually die when their hit points drop to 0", I always thought that was for effects that prevent them from dying (the example cited is an adventurer choosing to knock the monster unconscious).  If 0 hp = death unless some other effect prevents death, a monster that's reduced to 0 hit points can't make actions.  If Savage Demise does not function as an interrupt, there's no way the attack can be made without severe penalties (blind + prone), nor could you possibly charge with it (0 hit points = unconsciousness/death = prone by default).

Obviously the intent is that yes, you could, but there is no language whatsoever indicating the Orc has special exemption from the normal state of the rules.  This is as much of a problem as Savage Demise invalidating it's own trigger, IMO. 

It's a no action, so it's still doable while dead.  

And there's actually no rules about what you can do while dead.  Only while unconcious.  By RAW, you could die, be healed, and still run around.


So somewhere things need to stop following RAW and use a bit of RAI.  Otherwise everyone is basicly invincible.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's a no action, so it's still doable while dead.

Savage Demise is free action.

there's actually no rules about what you can do while dead.  Only while unconcious.

Mostly moot since Savage Demise triggers when "the orc drops to 0 hit points", and monsters "die when their hit points drop to 0, unless an adventurer chooses to knock them unconscious".

----


That said: "An immediate interrupt jumps in when its trigger occurs, taking place before the trigger finishes. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, the triggering action is lost."

A 'triggering action' is a different game element from a 'trigger'. The trigger here (falling below 0 hp) definitely occurred, and the orc's reaction can take place before the trigger completely finishes... but it definitely won't invalidate the triggering action. Basically, an interrupt can't invalidate it's trigger (else we have a paradox). It can invalidate the triggering action though (say, by occurring during the targeting portion of an attack).
By RAW, you could die, be healed, and still run around


No, heal don't work if you are dead, only if your Dying. See Healing The Dying (RC 261)

It would take a Resurrection, Restore Life or something similar.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

By RAW, you could die, be healed, and still run around

No, heal don't work if you are dead, only if your Dying. See Healing The Dying (RC 261)

It would take a Resurrection, Restore Life or something similar.

Can you quote that?

I don't have access to the RC right now.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

heal don't work if you are dead

Can you quote that?

It's a silly debate, but I'm curious:
Would targeting restriction prevent healing from working on the dead (i.e. since corpses are objects rather than creatures).

heal don't work if you are dead

Can you quote that?

It's a silly debate, but I'm curious:
Would targeting restriction prevent healing from working on the dead (i.e. since corpses are objects rather than creatures).

Can you quote that?

As far as i'm aware, there's no defiition of "dead".  No exception is made from the normal rules.


Though i agree it's silly.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

corpses are objects

Can you quote that?

That takes us in semantics (word definitions) rather than rules. The writer's have previously elaborated on those semantics in the FAQ's of previous editions:
"An undead creature is not alive, but it’s also not a corpse—a corpse is an object. (The undead creature might have been made from a corpse, but it has transformed into something else, mainly a creature)."
"A dead body of any creature (warforged, human, dragon, whatever) is treated as an object"
etc.

However (given the premise of this discussion) I can of course see that too being up for debate.
By RAW, you could die, be healed, and still run around

No, heal don't work if you are dead, only if your Dying. See Healing The Dying (RC 261)

It would take a Resurrection, Restore Life or something similar.

Can you quote that?

I don't have access to the RC right now.



The rules don't say can you heal the dead, only the dying. Otherwise reaching past your bloodied value in the negative HP wouldn't be a problem if your Leader could just toss a Word at you and get you back up.

Sure, under Healing The Dying: 

RC 261 Regain Hit Points: When an adventurer is dying and receives healing, he or she is considered to have 0 hit points, and then regains hit points from the healing effect. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter