Ancient Walkers

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So I had an idea: a magic set with a setting from before Urza and the original magic storyline. I'd like to explore the idea of ancient walkers being like modern walkers and something changing them to be nigh omnipotent until the Mending.

It could include things like the Thran and the Dragon War, but I'm a little fuzzy on how close those 2 things are. Or even which order. Any help?
The story of the thran:
Some political thing occurs and a group, including the healer Yawgmoth, gets exiled.
Yawgmoth wanders Dominaria, doing a wide variety of evil things
Eventually, some guy gets phthisis from powerstone radiation, his wife holds a lot of political clout and gets Yawgmoth un-exiled to cure her husband.
Yawgmoth's ability to cure phthisis enables him to get a MASSIVE amount of political power, and he pretty much takes over the thran empire.
Oh yeah, and a planeswalker gives him a portal to phyrexia by breaking a powerstone
Then, lots of people notice that Yawgmoth is ****ing evil and start waging war on the Thran empire, and Yawgmoth heads into phyrexia and releases a cloud of deadly energy to kill everyone.  Oh yeah, and the woman who got him un-exiled realizes that he's evil too, puts the powerstone back together, and seals away phyrexia. 
I hate dogs.
So I had an idea: a magic set with a setting from before Urza and the original magic storyline. I'd like to explore the idea of ancient walkers being like modern walkers and something changing them to be nigh omnipotent until the Mending. It could include things like the Thran and the Dragon War, but I'm a little fuzzy on how close those 2 things are. Or even which order. Any help?



The Thran took place roughly -5000 years before Urza.
The Primeval Dragons held sway approximately -10000 years before Urza.
The Elder Dragons dominated seemingly the entire multiverse -20000 years before Urza.

There was a HUGE gap between those periods.
Uh, ignore the housecat.

The thing is, 'Walkers only gradually powered up in a very meta sense--older stories didn't have 'walkers as powerful as the directly pre-Mending 'walkers were. So, this would be kind of hard to justify.

Buuuut if you wanted to retcon things, yeah, maybe the time of the Primevals and the Dragon War could work for this. I think our current models place the Thran after that time period, which is good, since Dyfed had pre-Mending powers. That's a pretty patchy time period anyway, so I suppose it could work. 
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Buuuut if you wanted to retcon things, yeah, maybe the time of the Primevals and the Dragon War could work for this. I think our current models place the Thran after that time period, which is good, since Dyfed had pre-Mending powers. That's a pretty patchy time period anyway, so I suppose it could work. 



Should be noted that Bolas and the Demonic Leviathan (That totally needs to be followed up on dammit... you can't just drop that on us without follow through) both had powers beyond even the gods. So we're looking at a time period that worked before the Primevals as well since their duel was one of the FIRST things that happened on Dominaria.

Hell, if you need a hook, there's also the mystery of how Dominaria became the Nexus and what the Nexus was before it.
My recounting is perfectly accurate.
I hate dogs.
My recounting is perfectly accurate.

And perfectly not what he was asking.

@Barinellos:

We don't even quite know what a nexus is, do we? We can feel out some of the properties--it's tied to the overall health and composition of the Multiverse, it seems to attract greater than usual Planeswalker traffic... anything besides that?

And yeah, actually, if you have to go back that far anyway, might as well tie your story in with the first God Tier Planeswalker Fight.

How does a Leviathan even become a 'walker anyway? Seriously, that's quite a weird hanging thread >_>
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We don't even quite know what a nexus is, do we? We can feel out some of the properties--it's tied to the overall health and composition of the Multiverse, it seems to attract greater than usual Planeswalker traffic... anything besides that?

And yeah, actually, if you have to go back that far anyway, might as well tie your story in with the first God Tier Planeswalker Fight.

How does a Leviathan even become a 'walker anyway? Seriously, that's quite a weird hanging thread >_>



Well, as a nexus, it seems to be connected to every plane from a central location. Something happens on or to the nexus, it sends shockwaves through the aether. Sort of similar to Earth 1 in the DC's 52 set up.
Besides that, we know it doesn't move like rogue planes either. It's stationary, at least at the moment.

And as for the Leviathan... we should ask Kiora.
People have also bandied the idea of new planes becoming the Nexus for a while, but I'm pretty sure that's just speculative fanon (although it makes sense, since Dominaria almost certainly wasn't the first plane in the Multiverse).

Good point though about the effects of Nexus events taking a while to reverberate. Which fits with what we know of the gradual change that followed the Mending...
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People have also bandied the idea of new planes becoming the Nexus for a while, but I'm pretty sure that's just speculative fanon (although it makes sense, since Dominaria almost certainly wasn't the first plane in the Multiverse).

Good point though about the effects of Nexus events taking a while to reverberate. Which fits with what we know of the gradual change that followed the Mending...



There's no question that Dominaria is not the first nexus. The idea was bandied about that Ravnica had replaced it, but there's no real indication of that other than a high degree of walker traffic, but even 10,000 years ago that was true.
A lot of the information we get about the pre-Domarian multiverse comes from Equilor and some of Bolas's recountings. It was still a young world when the Elder Dragons were in power.
Did anyone ever wonder if the Leviathan was actually something akin to a Legendary Eldrazi?  Think about it.  The Leviathan was titanic in size, was godlike in power, and had the ability to shatter the minds of those it touched.  Maybe it was once the fourth Legendary Eldrazi somehow trapped in solid form and wandering the Multiverse in a destructive fit until it came across Bolas who managed to bring it down and eat it.

It would entertain me to find out that Bolas set in motion the release of the other three Legendary Eldrazi because he found the first one he came across so yummy.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Well meybe the walker battle between Bolas and the Leviathan was a trigger to and or finalised the shifting of the nexus to domarian plane. then there could be the idea of multiple nexus' each affecting a certain number of planes, and those that planes that travel have a chance to switch between nexus'.
Well, those days *are* also the days when the eldrazi were free, a sort of "Gods and demons" age of myth.  It might help things there that "Planeswalker" was not Bolas' only claim to godlike power.  He was also and Elder Dragon.  The mortal Planeswalkers of that era, those being from the stock of elves and humans.  I had some thoughts on that a long time ago

Thoughts on the early days of Planeswalking
The oldest *known* planeswalker is probably Nicol Bolas.  Either that, or the creator of Phyrexia.  Nicol seems to have a good claim on age as there's nothing around to dispute him, while the creator of Phyrexia was dead (Cause uncertain, presumably old age or at least "letting myself literally die of boredom" as I recall no signs of a violent death or killer and Dyfed certainally didn't see a risk in taking Yawgmoth there.) 5000 years before the birth of Urza.  Considering Phyrexia is far more complex and stable than any other artificial plane we've seen, untold ages would have been taken in its creation alone.

However, the creator of phyrexia's claim to being the actual oldest is likely hurt by the sophistication of Phyrexia: even with near unlimited time, it would be easier to create a grand project "standing on the shoulders of giants" so to speak -- that is, having a body of knowledge present and accessable due to an older generation of planeswalkers.  Nicol, too, seems to have a more complete understanding than would be expected of the "first" with nothing before him to draw knowledge from, so neither is likeley the first planeswalker.  Instead, they both seem to belong to a "golden age" of old planeswalkers with Dyfed, which continued probably until the ascendance of Urza (So including Tev Loneglade, Serra, and many others that were on the scene before him).  Nicol and our unknown walker are at the start of that, Tev and Serra closer to the end.

This golden age probably started with the sealing of the Eldrazi, something Nicol is likely familiar with (So Sorin is also an early part of it).  before that golden age would have been an "age of myths", in which the first planeswalker, probably a dragon or an elf, arose.  The first planeswalker wouldn't have been the biggest fish in the pond -- instead, he or she would have been terrorized by the great elder beings like the Eldrazi and Marit Lage.  This Planeswalker -- ler's call her Eve just to be that way -- would have felt very much like the hero of an HP Lovecraft story (especially if humanoid), her eyes opened beyond the familiar world and onto a world full of nightmarish monsters, beyond her comprehension.  How long she survived is unknown, she likeley would have been beneath the notice of a lot of the worst, but even weaker eldrazi and other things like Marit Lage would be very quickly leathal if she wasn't able to learn to keep her head down out there.  In any case, it's a safe guess that she didn't make it through the age of myths (as Nicol and Sorin are the only planeswalkers still alive who seems to know of even the tail end of it), and that her home plane -- if one we know of -- was either Dominaria or even more probably Equilor.

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Did anyone ever wonder if the Leviathan was actually something akin to a Legendary Eldrazi?  Think about it.  The Leviathan was titanic in size, was godlike in power, and had the ability to shatter the minds of those it touched.  Maybe it was once the fourth Legendary Eldrazi somehow trapped in solid form and wandering the Multiverse in a destructive fit until it came across Bolas who managed to bring it down and eat it.

It would entertain me to find out that Bolas set in motion the release of the other three Legendary Eldrazi because he found the first one he came across so yummy.



No.

Did anyone ever wonder if the Leviathan was actually something akin to a Legendary Eldrazi?  Think about it.  The Leviathan was titanic in size, was godlike in power, and had the ability to shatter the minds of those it touched.  Maybe it was once the fourth Legendary Eldrazi somehow trapped in solid form and wandering the Multiverse in a destructive fit until it came across Bolas who managed to bring it down and eat it.

It would entertain me to find out that Bolas set in motion the release of the other three Legendary Eldrazi because he found the first one he came across so yummy.

No.

Other than the more obvious objection to using new things to explain old things....why not?  It doesn't take too many leaps of logic and is far less tangled than a conspiracy theorist’s stringboard.  It doesn't seem half bad as a purely speculative path.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.


Did anyone ever wonder if the Leviathan was actually something akin to a Legendary Eldrazi?  Think about it.  The Leviathan was titanic in size, was godlike in power, and had the ability to shatter the minds of those it touched.  Maybe it was once the fourth Legendary Eldrazi somehow trapped in solid form and wandering the Multiverse in a destructive fit until it came across Bolas who managed to bring it down and eat it.

It would entertain me to find out that Bolas set in motion the release of the other three Legendary Eldrazi because he found the first one he came across so yummy.

No.

Other than the more obvious objection to using new things to explain old things....why not?  It doesn't take too many leaps of logic and is far less tangled than a conspiracy theorist’s stringboard.  It doesn't seem half bad as a purely speculative path.


1) The Eldrazi are not physical beings in their most natural state. They are astral beings of the aether. Bolas would have had to have FORCED it into a physical nature if it had been.
2) Nicol Bolas was the one who had the ability to shatter minds, not the Demonic Leviathan. That ability is why he WON that fight.
3) Just by existing in the same space the Eldrazi destroy the terrain utterly and drain the mana of the world. If the Leviathan had been an Eldrazi, Bolas would have no mana to call on.
4) We've been told, explicitly, there are 3 titans.

Did anyone ever wonder if the Leviathan was actually something akin to a Legendary Eldrazi?  Think about it.  The Leviathan was titanic in size, was godlike in power, and had the ability to shatter the minds of those it touched.  Maybe it was once the fourth Legendary Eldrazi somehow trapped in solid form and wandering the Multiverse in a destructive fit until it came across Bolas who managed to bring it down and eat it.

It would entertain me to find out that Bolas set in motion the release of the other three Legendary Eldrazi because he found the first one he came across so yummy.

No.

Other than the more obvious objection to using new things to explain old things....why not?  It doesn't take too many leaps of logic and is far less tangled than a conspiracy theorist’s stringboard.  It doesn't seem half bad as a purely speculative path.


1) The Eldrazi are not physical beings in their most natural state. They are astral beings of the aether. Bolas would have had to have FORCED it into a physical nature if it had been.
2) Nicol Bolas was the one who had the ability to shatter minds, not the Demonic Leviathan. That ability is why he WON that fight.
3) Just by existing in the same space the Eldrazi destroy the terrain utterly and drain the mana of the world. If the Leviathan had been an Eldrazi, Bolas would have no mana to call on.
4) We've been told, explicitly, there are 3 titans.


1.)I believe my point supposed that the Leviathan (if a being akin to an Eldzrazi) physically coalesced on Dominaria through some natural accident.  It's not like Dominaria is a stranger to planar anomalies.
2.) I thought he gained that power from eating the Leviathan.  I accept that I'm probably wrong on this point, though it doesn't change the validity of the speculation very much at all.  The Leviathan was still a titanic destructive force full of (possibly eaten) mana that Bolas killed and ate to gain its power.
3.) Mana or no, Bolas is still and Elder Dragon.  Also, having not one, but three Eldrazi titans rampaging around Zendikar hasn't seemed to kill off all magic use there yet.  Especially for plansewalkers.  I'd think (possibly wrongly) that the Eldrazi drain mana from an area at a rate slower than instantaneously.
4.)  Well, there's three now.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Most importantly, that Bolas vs Leviathan fight was stated to have been the first Planeswalker duel. Eldrazi are not Planeswalkers.
Well, those days *are* also the days when the eldrazi were free, a sort of "Gods and demons" age of myth.  It might help things there that "Planeswalker" was not Bolas' only claim to godlike power.  He was also and Elder Dragon.  The mortal Planeswalkers of that era, those being from the stock of elves and humans.  I had some thoughts on that a long time ago

Thoughts on the early days of Planeswalking
The oldest *known* planeswalker is probably Nicol Bolas.  Either that, or the creator of Phyrexia.  Nicol seems to have a good claim on age as there's nothing around to dispute him, while the creator of Phyrexia was dead (Cause uncertain, presumably old age or at least "letting myself literally die of boredom" as I recall no signs of a violent death or killer and Dyfed certainally didn't see a risk in taking Yawgmoth there.) 5000 years before the birth of Urza.  Considering Phyrexia is far more complex and stable than any other artificial plane we've seen, untold ages would have been taken in its creation alone.

However, the creator of phyrexia's claim to being the actual oldest is likely hurt by the sophistication of Phyrexia: even with near unlimited time, it would be easier to create a grand project "standing on the shoulders of giants" so to speak -- that is, having a body of knowledge present and accessable due to an older generation of planeswalkers.  Nicol, too, seems to have a more complete understanding than would be expected of the "first" with nothing before him to draw knowledge from, so neither is likeley the first planeswalker.  Instead, they both seem to belong to a "golden age" of old planeswalkers with Dyfed, which continued probably until the ascendance of Urza (So including Tev Loneglade, Serra, and many others that were on the scene before him).  Nicol and our unknown walker are at the start of that, Tev and Serra closer to the end.

This golden age probably started with the sealing of the Eldrazi, something Nicol is likely familiar with (So Sorin is also an early part of it).  before that golden age would have been an "age of myths", in which the first planeswalker, probably a dragon or an elf, arose.  The first planeswalker wouldn't have been the biggest fish in the pond -- instead, he or she would have been terrorized by the great elder beings like the Eldrazi and Marit Lage.  This Planeswalker -- ler's call her Eve just to be that way -- would have felt very much like the hero of an HP Lovecraft story (especially if humanoid), her eyes opened beyond the familiar world and onto a world full of nightmarish monsters, beyond her comprehension.  How long she survived is unknown, she likeley would have been beneath the notice of a lot of the worst, but even weaker eldrazi and other things like Marit Lage would be very quickly leathal if she wasn't able to learn to keep her head down out there.  In any case, it's a safe guess that she didn't make it through the age of myths (as Nicol and Sorin are the only planeswalkers still alive who seems to know of even the tail end of it), and that her home plane -- if one we know of -- was either Dominaria or even more probably Equilor.


Hm, does that still work with what we know of Sorin's backstory, time-wise?

I think your speculation about the creator of Phyrexia is solid. Interestingly, this implies that there was some gradual collapse of knowledge again during or after this golden age. We know that by the time Urza ascended, things had gotten downright brutal--the 'walker that trained him ended up attempting to kill (or mind control? I forgot--gotta look that up in Planeswalker) him, one of the only meetings between Urza and other 'walkers ended with Manatarqua being murdered by fireball, not to long afterward the Summit of the Null Moon turned into a bloodbath...

We know that Bolas's fight with the demonic leviathan was the first truly titanic Planeswalker battle, and maybe that was the dawn of essentially a new era of strife. Previously the Edenic Planeswalkers (yeah, we're sticking with this) would have been in opposition to the chaotic unknown of the early Multiverse, but now they would be opposed to each other.

That idea kinda fits what we know about Dominaria as Nexus, too, since the effects of Bolas's first great fight could have rippled outward through the rest of Dominia...



I'm with Barinellos, though, that "Demonic Leviathan" and "Eldrazi" are not in any way relatable to one another at all.

The Demonic Leviathan was, if I remember correctly, EXPLICITLY described as a Planeswalker--it was the first PLANESWALKER fight. Eldrazi are in a different class of entities entirely. They don't walk the planes, they float outside them. Ergo, it makes no sense to call them Planeswalkers. It doesn't really add anything to the theory, either, as far as I can tell.

Man. Eldrazi creep sure is a thing in this fandom for some reason. >_>

EDIT: Agosto beat me. 
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Man. Eldrazi creep sure is a thing in this fandom for some reason. >_> 



I need to beat them to death with my bare flaming tendrils.
The Eldrazi or the Fandom?
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The Eldrazi or the Fandom?



I have enough tendrils for both.
You know I'm planning on using that line out of context wherever possible from now on, right?
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You know I'm planning on using that line out of context wherever possible from now on, right?



Seconded.
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So I had an idea: a magic set with a setting from before Urza and the original magic storyline. I'd like to explore the idea of ancient walkers being like modern walkers and something changing them to be nigh omnipotent until the Mending. It could include things like the Thran and the Dragon War, but I'm a little fuzzy on how close those 2 things are. Or even which order. Any help?



I love this idea. I'm a big fan of the thran but I guess the era of the godwalkers started before their time. The whole, walkers were originally like they are now but somebody did some crazy magic or something to make them gods angle appeals to me. It also justifies why the "universe had to find it's balance with the planeswalker spark".

On an unrealted note- threads to survive very long in this forum do they. The level of derailment I keep witnessing here is just astonishing.
On an unrealted note- threads to survive very long in this forum do they. The level of derailment I keep witnessing here is just astonishing.



That's how we roll yo.
Also, what part of "Barinellos is hell on threads" wasn't clear enough?
Well, those days *are* also the days when the eldrazi were free, a sort of "Gods and demons" age of myth.  It might help things there that "Planeswalker" was not Bolas' only claim to godlike power.  He was also and Elder Dragon.  The mortal Planeswalkers of that era, those being from the stock of elves and humans.  I had some thoughts on that a long time ago

Thoughts on the early days of Planeswalking
The oldest *known* planeswalker is probably Nicol Bolas.  Either that, or the creator of Phyrexia.  Nicol seems to have a good claim on age as there's nothing around to dispute him, while the creator of Phyrexia was dead (Cause uncertain, presumably old age or at least "letting myself literally die of boredom" as I recall no signs of a violent death or killer and Dyfed certainally didn't see a risk in taking Yawgmoth there.) 5000 years before the birth of Urza.  Considering Phyrexia is far more complex and stable than any other artificial plane we've seen, untold ages would have been taken in its creation alone.

However, the creator of phyrexia's claim to being the actual oldest is likely hurt by the sophistication of Phyrexia: even with near unlimited time, it would be easier to create a grand project "standing on the shoulders of giants" so to speak -- that is, having a body of knowledge present and accessable due to an older generation of planeswalkers.  Nicol, too, seems to have a more complete understanding than would be expected of the "first" with nothing before him to draw knowledge from, so neither is likeley the first planeswalker.  Instead, they both seem to belong to a "golden age" of old planeswalkers with Dyfed, which continued probably until the ascendance of Urza (So including Tev Loneglade, Serra, and many others that were on the scene before him).  Nicol and our unknown walker are at the start of that, Tev and Serra closer to the end.

This golden age probably started with the sealing of the Eldrazi, something Nicol is likely familiar with (So Sorin is also an early part of it).  before that golden age would have been an "age of myths", in which the first planeswalker, probably a dragon or an elf, arose.  The first planeswalker wouldn't have been the biggest fish in the pond -- instead, he or she would have been terrorized by the great elder beings like the Eldrazi and Marit Lage.  This Planeswalker -- ler's call her Eve just to be that way -- would have felt very much like the hero of an HP Lovecraft story (especially if humanoid), her eyes opened beyond the familiar world and onto a world full of nightmarish monsters, beyond her comprehension.  How long she survived is unknown, she likeley would have been beneath the notice of a lot of the worst, but even weaker eldrazi and other things like Marit Lage would be very quickly leathal if she wasn't able to learn to keep her head down out there.  In any case, it's a safe guess that she didn't make it through the age of myths (as Nicol and Sorin are the only planeswalkers still alive who seems to know of even the tail end of it), and that her home plane -- if one we know of -- was either Dominaria or even more probably Equilor.


Hm, does that still work with what we know of Sorin's backstory, time-wise?

I think your speculation about the creator of Phyrexia is solid. Interestingly, this implies that there was some gradual collapse of knowledge again during or after this golden age. We know that by the time Urza ascended, things had gotten downright brutal--the 'walker that trained him ended up attempting to kill (or mind control? I forgot--gotta look that up in Planeswalker) him, one of the only meetings between Urza and other 'walkers ended with Manatarqua being murdered by fireball, not to long afterward the Summit of the Null Moon turned into a bloodbath...

We know that Bolas's fight with the demonic leviathan was the first truly titanic Planeswalker battle, and maybe that was the dawn of essentially a new era of strife. Previously the Edenic Planeswalkers (yeah, we're sticking with this) would have been in opposition to the chaotic unknown of the early Multiverse, but now they would be opposed to each other.

That idea kinda fits what we know about Dominaria as Nexus, too, since the effects of Bolas's first great fight could have rippled outward through the rest of Dominia...



I'm with Barinellos, though, that "Demonic Leviathan" and "Eldrazi" are not in any way relatable to one another at all.

The Demonic Leviathan was, if I remember correctly, EXPLICITLY described as a Planeswalker--it was the first PLANESWALKER fight. Eldrazi are in a different class of entities entirely. They don't walk the planes, they float outside them. Ergo, it makes no sense to call them Planeswalkers. It doesn't really add anything to the theory, either, as far as I can tell.

Man. Eldrazi creep sure is a thing in this fandom for some reason. >_>

EDIT: Agosto beat me. 



The creatore of Phyrexia, Yawgmoth, was not a Planeswalker.
Yawgmoth didn't create phyrexia he merely shaped it, it was already there.

The creatore of Phyrexia, Yawgmoth, was not a Planeswalker.


Yawgmoth didn't create Phyrexia. He... changed it to match his ideals, but the plane itself was created by another (unamed) planeswalker.


Just like Karn planeswalker created the plane Argentum, then Memnarch changed to into the Mirrodin we knew, and later it became New Phyrexia...

[<o>]
There's a reasonable agrument that Yawgmoth was so augmented as to be, effectively, a planeswalker. This makes his fight with Urza into an epic duel, the sort of game you tell your friends about, instead of planeswalker vs. non-walker.
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oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
There's a reasonable agrument that Yawgmoth was so augmented as to be, effectively, a planeswalker. This makes his fight with Urza into an epic duel, the sort of game you tell your friends about, instead of planeswalker vs. non-walker.



Could he planeswalk? No, so he wasn't a planeswalker.
He was actually more or less confined to his center of power too.
He had Phyrexian Portals and was capable of waging war across multiple planes. He didn't have a "spark." If Karn gets to be an artificial Planeswalker, Yawgmoth does too.

Also, I like the idea that Urza vs. Yawgmoth was a story of a battle between 'walkers like us, not how a Legendary creature killed several 'walkers before dying himself. More recently, it adds something poetic to the new phyrexians' use of Karn.
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57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Those portals have serious limitations, chief among them that they have a point A and B.
You can't go just anywhere, you need to have coordinates layed out in advance. 
Barinellos, feel free to correct me.
He had Phyrexian Portals and was capable of waging war across multiple planes. He didn't have a "spark." If Karn gets to be an artificial Planeswalker, Yawgmoth does too.

Also, I like the idea that Urza vs. Yawgmoth was a story of a battle between 'walkers like us, not how a Legendary creature killed several 'walkers before dying himself. More recently, it adds something poetic to the new phyrexians' use of Karn.



Karn actually has a spark. It belonged to Urza.
And no, portals don't make him a walker, no matter how hard you want to try to argue.

You seem to have ignored, as well, that Yawgmoth was confined to the 9th sphere. He couldn't go ANYWHERE without risking the center of his power. That's why he was the coup de grace of the Invasion. If he was as powerful as he was, it would have made more sense to OPEN with his appearance, kill everything he touched as he spread across the world, and reanimated everything near him.

So why didn't he? Because he was away from the source of his power.
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He had Phyrexian Portals and was capable of waging war across multiple planes. He didn't have a "spark." If Karn gets to be an artificial Planeswalker, Yawgmoth does too.

Also, I like the idea that Urza vs. Yawgmoth was a story of a battle between 'walkers like us, not how a Legendary creature killed several 'walkers before dying himself. More recently, it adds something poetic to the new phyrexians' use of Karn.



Karn actually has a spark. It belonged to Urza.
And no, portals don't make him a walker, no matter how hard you want to try to argue.

You seem to have ignored, as well, that Yawgmoth was confined to the 9th sphere. He couldn't go ANYWHERE without risking the center of his power. That's why he was the coup de grace of the Invasion. If he was as powerful as he was, it would have made more sense to OPEN with his appearance, kill everything he touched as he spread across the world, and reanimated everything near him.

So why didn't he? Because he was away from the source of his power.


At the end of The thran, Yawgmoth is planning to extract a spark. He lost the walker he planned to use, but he had plenty of time to find a new 'walker. Now, there's probably a "freely given" clause there, but given the mind control Yawgmoth had on Urza, he could work around that.

I'm willing to ignore the confined to the 9th sphere on the grounds that Yawgmoth, legendary creature is, in my opinion, extremely lame. He should be a role model for aspiring young black planeswalkers/players, not something that dies to final judgement. I'm willing to fill in blanks to give Yawgmoth more power.
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
That's not how it works.
You don't just get to make up rules because you don't like it that Yawgmoth was never a walker and he died.
I'm okay with him dieing, I'm not okay with the first seven years of Magic's story being about Urza vs. Legendary creatures, rather than an actual game.
Check out my cube!
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
It wasn't that The Ineffable couldn't extract the spark before he was interrupted.

HE COULDN'T FIND IT.

The Spark isn't in the material world, and its theft was beyond even His means.

The Lord of the Wastes was never a Planeswalker.

He was a GOD.

Even his spells are broken, banned manifestations of ruin. If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 
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What if you filled the top of the card with 's ? How many fit there? 15?


@EyeHunter: A planeswalker is defined by the spark. There's no way about it. And in a way, not being a 'walker makes Yawgmoth's achievements (however horrible) all the more impressive. 

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If you tried making a legendary creature based on Yawgmoth... well, simply put, you wouldn't be able to. There's no way it would be anything other than staggeringly overpowered. 

When someone in YMTC tried to make a 'Walker card for Yawgy a few days ago, I mentioned that it would make more sense to create a Wolrd Enchantment Creature to better confer his status as a legendary being of ineffable presence.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

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