Back to Class Features and Combat only Maneuvers

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
Yeah, after a session... The previous packet felt a little better.

I don't know if this fits more in the Playtest packet forum of the DM feedback forum... move if incorrect.

But almost every time a maneuver was used in my last game that didn't involve an attack roll... felt weird or have unexpected outcomes.

1) Enough tests with Skill Mastery deems it broken.
Skill Mastery itself is fine. Breaking bounded accuracy sometimes is okay.
But the rogue starts with 4 skills core, 8 with backgrounds, and more with specialties.

If you use Backgrounds, and Specialties, the rogue is rolling Expertise Dice and with a high bonus already on top... all the time. Makes rogues feel too good.

2) Saving Throw maneuvers feel weird.
It feels like a trap choice.
You must have the right saving throw maneuver ready while be willing to send the expertise dice. At low level the gain is low. But with high level and committing all dice to the save, the bonus is great... provided you have the right maneuver.

Great Fort. Iron Will, and Lightning reflexes seem like flavor only choices.  Much like the previous feats of the same names.

3) Danger Sense is too good.
I can't see a level 10 fighter, monk, or rogue without it except for "flavor". Not a first pick but a "must have eventually".

Almost every instance when ED were not added to damage, used as damage, situational to hit bonus, AC, or speed; something felt wrong. Mostly because the size of the expertise dice is to large to be added to everything.

Maneuvers should be thought more in terms of 3E fighter feats and 4e attack powers and be directly related to attacks.

Instead Class Features outside of the expertise mechanic should handle skills, initiative, saves, and ability checks.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I have mentioned before that the problem with the expertise die mechanic is that you are trying to assign the same number variables to too many attributes.  Expertise die themselves are not neccessarily the culprit, but how the maneuvers themselves are written and designed needs tweaking.

I have heard the argument that rolling die are fun, and that is why so many maneuvers call for it, but it also poor rules design.  Granted, this is still very early in many parts of the rules, and I expect this change over time.  Part of the problem is, randomness is a key factor to the game, and wanting to have it permeate many levels of design is likely to occur.  And for some abilities, such as Skill Mastery and Deadly Strike, a lack of consistent results should be the flaw, but for something like Controlled Fall and Step of the Wind there should be more grounded predictable results ( 1d spent on Controlled Fall reduces the die rolled by 1d, each 1d spent on Step of the Wind is 5 feet (1 yard, square, meter, mile etc etc) of movement.) to make them better options.

I also think a representation of mental and physical exhaustion for maneuvers and expertise die would be a nice fit (as to explain why a short break after combat or a reason for rogue not to go skill mastery happy).  A tweak to Skill Mastery that could be made is that it only applies to the skills (ability checks) from the rogue scheme to limit opportunity.
I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.
I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.



No, there have been a few of us saying Skill Mastery is broken as well as saying Sneak Attack is too weak. Sneak Attack has just gotten more attention because it is the rogue's combat ability
I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.



No, there have been a few of us saying Skill Mastery is broken as well as saying Sneak Attack is too weak. Sneak Attack has just gotten more attention because it is the rogue's combat ability



Skill Mastery isn't broken.

Skill Mastery with 8 skills is broken.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.



No, there have been a few of us saying Skill Mastery is broken as well as saying Sneak Attack is too weak. Sneak Attack has just gotten more attention because it is the rogue's combat ability



Skill Mastery isn't broken.

Skill Mastery with 8 skills is broken.



I feel the problem is more the near auto-success on trained abilities. I like the rogue having more skills than everyone else... except perhaps bards who do not exist
I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.



No, there have been a few of us saying Skill Mastery is broken as well as saying Sneak Attack is too weak. Sneak Attack has just gotten more attention because it is the rogue's combat ability



Skill Mastery isn't broken.

Skill Mastery with 8 skills is broken.



I feel the problem is more the near auto-success on trained abilities. I like the rogue having more skills than everyone else... except perhaps bards who do not exist




No. That is barely a problem, A rogue can near autosucess once in a blue moon.
The problem is the rogue autosuccessing half the ability cheecks she rolls because she has a skill bonus and mastery for almost every major situation.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I think this is the first time anyone has accused the rogue of being too good.



No, there have been a few of us saying Skill Mastery is broken as well as saying Sneak Attack is too weak. Sneak Attack has just gotten more attention because it is the rogue's combat ability



Skill Mastery isn't broken.

Skill Mastery with 8 skills is broken.



I feel the problem is more the near auto-success on trained abilities. I like the rogue having more skills than everyone else... except perhaps bards who do not exist




No. That is barely a problem, A rogue can near autosucess once in a blue moon.
The problem is the rogue autosuccessing half the ability cheecks she rolls because she has a skill bonus and mastery for almost every major situation.



I guess my point is I would rather Skill mastery brought down so that it did  not break bounded accuracy than see the rogue lose their skills. I also feel this is a more likely solution because bringing a rogue down to 3-4 skills will make them lose their place as "skill monkeys".

Honestly, giving an ability that helps with skill use and does not break the math seems to be really hard, this is the third attempt or something in Next isn't it?
The issue with Skill Mastery and Bounded Accuracy is that there is little room for bonuses to not breaking it.

Part of me wonders why they don't just use a Untrained (+0), Trained (+3),  Focused (+5), and Mastered (+7) system.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The issue with Skill Mastery and Bounded Accuracy is that there is little room for bonuses to not breaking it.

Part of me wonders why they don't just use a Untrained (+0), Trained (+3),  Focused (+5), and Mastered (+7) system.



Agreed. And yes, both Mighty Exertion and Skill Mastery are broken. They don't work, very well, with the Bounded Accuracy system. Something needs to be done.