Rogue vs Fighter: Conditions vs Damage?

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Here is a thought on how to differentiate rogues and fighters:

 

ROGUE
Rogues use dirty tricks, guile, shock and mobility to beat the enemy in combat. In 4e terms they move like strikers and attack like (mostly) single target controllers. Maneuvers often focus on applying conditions.  (For pre 4e players- effects like prone, daze, stun, blind, immobilize, poison) They reduce the enemy's efficiency through resource denial and debuffing. They have strong maneuverability options to further control the ways in which an enemy can engage them.

FIGHTER
Fighters focus on reducing the enemy to 0 HP, using maneuvers that deal extra damage and extra attacks. They also have maneuvers that limit the enemies ability to deliver damage by reducing it, preventing it, or avoiding it. This can help take some of the pressure off the cleric by giving a form of proactive healing via damage denial for parties that don't want to include clerics. In 4e terms they combine the striker's damage and the defenders protection.


Thoughts?
1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


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Nah. I like my fighters to be able to do both but preferring damage because they don't need to use tricks to survive. The rogue on the other hand must resort to trickery and placing conditions to compensate for their combat deficiency.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

A rogues fighting style should be primarily about deception.... and its impact I think is more nuanced than just control and every fighting style exploits more than one gambit... and involves control of a sort.

5 fighting gambits with approximate mental analogos.

Force (intimidation)
Deception (bluff)
Response/Adjustment (Diplomacy)
Instinct (?)
Analysis.(Perception/Insight)
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Each encounter should have a set DC.
If a rogue beat the DC with a thievery check, he steals the victory. 
Each encounter should have a set DC.
If a rogue beat the DC with a thievery check, he steals the victory. 



nice one Smile

1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

You guys have some weird  preconceptions of rogues.

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions).  They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is  that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.
You guys have some weird  preconceptions of rogues.

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions).  They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is  that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.

It's funny, as character classes are based on preconceptions.

Your preconceptions are not better that ours !

Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.
It's not supported by any edition, as the default attack feature is backstab or sneak attack.

I also prefer trickster rogues, but the fact is that they never existed in any edition before.
They just switch between skill solo mode and weapon combat mode with a twist.
[
Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.


An idiotic one..  and the fighter being a dunce is rather game reinforced nerdastic goo.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

[
Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.


An idiotic one..  and the fighter being a dunce is rather game reinforced nerdastic goo.




End of the world, I agree with Gar on something.  I'm going outside to see the supernova that should be hitting the planet at any moment. 
I've always wanted to see the Rogue more of a (using 4e terms here) Martial Controller/Martial Striker whereas the Fighter would be a Martial Striker/Martial Defender.

When the Rogue "sneak attacks" (what a horrid name for it though) someone it shouldn't be just damage but some debilitating effect also. Slow, Blind, Deafened, Silenced, Force Movement, Sickened, and Paralized are all things that can happen based on martial attacks described correctly.

Throwing some sand in the eyes of the enemy as you stab with a one handed finesse weapon? Damage + Blinded.

Stabbing your enemy and then jabbing the enemy with your free hand in the throat? Damage + Silenced.

The Rogue isn't all about killing, sometimes you need your target alive.

Meanwhile the Fighter doesn't care about all that stuff... Using brute force or finesse to make the enemy dead is a form of making them blinded or silenced. The Fighter doesn't try to take prisoners, the fighter leaves his enemies on the battlefield dead.

Or whatever *shrug*
A pickpocket rogue could make a check against a DC equal to the target's Constition score + 5 to steal its brain, heart or any small body part.
The enemy would be unable to function normally.

He could also make a pickpocket check against a DC equal to the target's Intelligence score + 5 to steal its brain and steal its free will, forcing the target to follow any order.

A rogue could use open lock on the enemy's chest, making him lose his entrails.

A rogue couls also use disarm trap on an enemy to disable all his sphincters.

The possibilities are endless. 
[
Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.


An idiotic one..  and the fighter being a dunce is rather game reinforced nerdastic goo.


I agree with everything you said except for the word "goo."

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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
You guys have some weird  preconceptions of rogues.

Rogues lie, cheat, and steal, but not in the middle of a fight (with some exceptions).  They can use tricks in a fight, but they don't rely on them.

The difference between the Rogue and the Fighter is  that a Fighter uses martial prowess to defeat his enemies, but a Rogue uses his brain. The Rogue uses stealth, poisons, and traps because he can and not because he has to. A Fighter is better than a Rogue in a direct fight, but the Rogue is not above exploiting weaknesses.



Wrong! The Rogue doesn't use his Brain, he uses his Dexterity! Cool

Seriously though, I wish Rogues had better incentive to be clever. Because all rogues are gymnasts. And all gymnasts can pick locks. And all lock pickers can assassinate....wait, none of that makes sense.

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[
Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.


An idiotic one..  and the fighter being a dunce is rather game reinforced nerdastic goo.


I agree with everything you said except for the word "goo."


man I thought it perfectly evocative of childhood/teenage messes
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

[
Fighters not using their brains vs. rogues using their brain in a fight is a preconception.


An idiotic one..  and the fighter being a dunce is rather game reinforced nerdastic goo.


I agree with everything you said except for the word "goo."


man I thought it perfectly evocative of childhood/teenage messes



I would have went with a more evocative teenage/adult description of said mess.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke