Berserker or a Tempest Fighter

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So lets say I want to play an aggresive high damage defender. It seems these are the top two candidates for the role in general. After making a handful of builds, it seems to me that a Berserker Cannot hope to compare to a Tempest Fighter simply due to the amount of multi attacks the tempest has. The berserker seems to be better on the raw defendery role (aura is easier to maintain, triggers as attack of opp vs interupts, easier access to temps) but quite a bit inferior in the damage roll. 

What are your thoughts? Is there a way to really squeeze every drop of damage out of a berserker to make something more comparable, or is futile?  
The berzerker is essentially a barbarian with different class features. Its not the best defender but it make a solid striker.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Well thats the thing. By my math, a tempest fighter makes a better striker, which is where I'm having an issue. 

Berserker goes berserker and he is adding (lets say paragon) 2d8 damage from his 'pseudo' striker feature built into his class.
He can rage, sure, and those are comparable to the fighter stances to be frank. Once he rages, he gives up free damage from his defender aura.

So what then? A tempest fighter is rolling multiple attack rolls every turn (vs the berseker only doing it via a handfull of powers).

The bersrker does not seem strikery enough I guess, at least by comparison to a 'pure defender'. 
Take a look at this  fighter build.  It fits your description perfectly and is still a top tier defender.
Sorry let me clarify:


The request is more, why does it seem Berserkers suck if Fighters can out striker them, and em I missing something?  
Super Scrag is a bit out of date, but yeah, you basically just do a strait fighter, maybe 2h weapon talent with a gouge instead of 1h bastard sword in order to abuse impaling spear for higher accuracy MBAs (Or Mordenkrad if you go Dwarf)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Neither is particularly good as an aggressive high damage defender.  Greatweapon Fighter is the least cheesy way to accomplish that goal; Brutal Barrage Battlemind is the likely the best.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Well thats the thing. By my math, a tempest fighter makes a better striker, which is where I'm having an issue. 

Berserker goes berserker and he is adding (lets say paragon) 2d8 damage from his 'pseudo' striker feature built into his class.
He can rage, sure, and those are comparable to the fighter stances to be frank. Once he rages, he gives up free damage from his defender aura.

So what then? A tempest fighter is rolling multiple attack rolls every turn (vs the berseker only doing it via a handfull of powers).

The bersrker does not seem strikery enough I guess, at least by comparison to a 'pure defender'. 



Pro barbarians don't rage, they just hit you lots of times with multiattacks.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Sorry wrong term, they zerk. All the multi attacks have the primarl key word, second you do that, you loose your defender aura.

It also seems barbarians have fewer multi attacks than tempest fighters do. I did not really count that many to level 13. 

Tempest fighter seems higher dpr than a Greatweapon fighter on paper. Both have the same accuracy bonus, the scaling damage from tempest makes the damage of a short sword slightly above that of a long sword, so on average a offhand weapon tends to only be a dice behind a true great weapon. Tempest attacks tend to have more multi strike powers, which as the ranger proves is the real source of damage.

What does the greatweapon fighter do uniquely that makes him competitive to a tempest fighter in terms of DPR? I certainly dont dice the difference in damage dice size is sufficient, so I guess its something else? 
You've got two at level 3, one at level 7, and Storm of Blades + Stonesplitting Roar at Paragon. Since you only have four encounter power slots, this is perfectly OK.

PS: When I said rage I was actually referring to your past comment about rages being comparable to stances. They are not. Dear god, they are so not at that BS strong level. They are terrible and the Berserker powers went a long way toward making the barb list a bit more tolerable.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Tempests have very few true multi-attacks (the CharOp definitions of multi-attack being whaling on the same guy multiple times, not whaling on multiple guys once).  The Fighter does have one of the single best Heroic tier multi-attacks, however, in Rain of Blows.

The Berserker is at its best as a pain-in-the-DM's-neck.  You can build them to have some of the highest ACs in the game, and reasonable NADs.  Building them with Flails makes them pretty good at slinging enemies all over the field and reducing their tactical options.  As with other aura defenders, they suffer for forced movement and teleportation removing their defensive options (particularly because they don't have a lasting mark as pre-E defenders do).  But, correctly built, they're basically a Knight with a Spiked Chain which doesn't lose out on class features to use it, and gets proper encounter and daily powers, and can take Battle Awareness.  They don't do masses of damage unless the enemy procs their aura punishment, but they're good at soaking damage too.

But they don't do well at your goal.  And CharOp hates them.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Alright so let me take a step back.

My goal is being a defender with great single target damage, preferably from multi striking. What are your suggestions?

My concern with the berserker is once i go multi striking, I'm basically done defending.

Tempest you are right, is splitting attacks up so thats not really a true multi striker for the most part,  although i feel battle fury stance + rain of blows/shocking twister is pretty sexy.

The Battle Mind option seems entirely based around a single power, which might be great but..think would bore me to death!

Let me also note, my goal is to be striker competitive (not equal) damage, with some decent tanking. I intend to be in a party with another tank so being the defacto 'wall' is not necessarily my goal.  
Greatweapon Fighter.  Pick up Gouge proficiency, Rain of Blows, possibly twice (Human, Adroit Explorer PP).  Go nuts.  It's not particularly complicated.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Tempest striker Fighters aren't that good defenders either.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The goal is to do as much damage as possible while still being able to defend. The goal is not to defend well. 
OK, Berserkers cannot defend, so you want Fighter. That was easy. No need to go Tempest though, unless you really want to be a Shock Trooper.

Im messing around with a gouge human atm in the character builder. Not a lot of feats that seem attractive to be honest. Obviously Pinning in paragon and marked fury i believe, but after a few feats I'm actually struggeling to determine what to pick up. Improved defesesn, initiative, weapon focus..check. Given its a fighter/multi attacker it does not seem charge spam is going to be idea. 

Suggestions?  
Its a level 13 character. Also I'm not race biased. A Genasi (if that works better) would work just as well.

Only thing that I will avoid is consumable based methods for pumping DPR, anything that would be a bit too cheesy. Beyond that, anything goes.  
Oh hrm..yeah thats sick! I presume that shcoking flame is enough to facilitate the property from firewind blade. 

Thats pretty mean! I'm not a giant fan of the PP's power since I feel they will have accuracy issues  over the long haul but its probably not large enough to worry. 

I presume at 11th you would also feat train out of weapon focus for Fiery Blood? 

Oh Hrm Firewind blade must be a blade (duh) so no gouge. Any suggestions? I'm not seeing any compelling two handed heavy blade superior options, so maybe just a great sword (dull). 
I'd say the upgrade to Fullblade is worth the feat.  Particularly if you aim to have Heavy Blade Mastery come Epic.  Assuming you can swing the Dex, of course; I'm sure one of the more knowledgable peeps around can chime in on that.
How does this look?

Akanul background stacks resistances which seemed nice (make a good thing better). Could reduce my con, drop plate, up my wisdom to help my will save. As long as a hift every round i'll be at a 28 ac and a 24 reflex (not super awesome but reasonable).

My damage on a MBA should be 1d10+11(base)+5 fire(shocking flame, fiery soul) + 2 lighting (shocking flame) for 1d10+19.  Cleaving would throw 10 total damage on a secondary target (its something). 

The nova potential seems pretty good. Any healing surge triggers the daily on the blade for +3 damage, Throw up Storm Soul for the extra 2d8 per hit, rain of blows, sohei minor attack. 

Erachima, is this pretty close to the mark?



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mara-kai, level 13
Genasi, Fighter (Weaponmaster), Elemental Tempest
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Elemental Manifestation Option: Firesoul
Firepulse Option: Firepulse Strength
Extra Manifestation Option: Stormsoul
Inherent Bonuses
Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
Theme: Sohei

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 16, DEX 15, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 17, CON 13, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8


AC: 27 Fort: 29 Ref: 23 Will: 22
HP: 103 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +17, Intimidate +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +7, Insight +9, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Sohei Attack: Sohei Flurry
Genasi Racial Power: Firepulse
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Genasi Racial Power: Promise of Storm
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave
Fighter Attack 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter Utility 2: Battle Fury Stance
Fighter Attack 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Utility 6: Kirre's Roar
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Jackal Strike
Fighter Utility 10: Defensive Advance
Elemental Tempest Attack 11: Tempest Burst
Elemental Tempest Utility 12: Absorb Elements
Fighter Attack 13: Storm of Blows

FEATS
Level 1: Extra Manifestation
Level 2: Firepulse Master
Level 4: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 11: Shocking Flame
Level 11: Fiery Blood
Level 12: Pinning Challenge

ITEMS
Firewind Blade Greatsword +3 x1
Dwarven Rimefire Plate Armor +3 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Amulet of Scales +3 x1
Boots of the Fencing Master x1
Strikebacks x1
Casque of Tactics (heroic tier) x1
Ironskin Belt (heroic tier) x1
Bag of Holding
Adventurer's Kit
====== End ======


 
Full Blade seems a bit limp for a feat. Eventually sure, but its 1 extra damage per weapon dice (which starts to make sense when im rolling 2+ weapon dice on my average hits) and high crit which seems ok.

2d6 brutal gouges are dealing 9 average damage a W, vs a great swords 5.5 and a full blades 6.5. Its probably one of the rare situations I would ever consider something other than a +3 proficiency weapon.

The issue with other more compelling full blade exotics, is they..arnt compelling.  
Well the exotics are kinda immaterial, seeing as the reason you're using a heavy blade instead of the gouge in the first place is for a specific enchantment.  I would argue that +1 per W is actually worth considering, yeah, because all your elemental damage modifiers are just begging for multitaps as it is.  Added in with said High Crit, it's a decent use of a feat.

That said, I will admit: I'm not sure just how many said multitaps are really available for you to use as a Fighter (powerswaps maybe?), so it might just not be worth it as a result of that.
If he wants to be halfway decent as a Defender (By which I mean, not fall over, not eat status conditions and be worthless, and actually have the ability to end an enemy turn on OA/CCs), he's going to need his feats for more than +1/W
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
That also includes forgetting Con, particularly if you do not start in heroic. Just take the 10 and leave it there, and boost Wis, a lot.
I would suggest 17/10/14/10/14/8, and upgrade Str and Wis after that.

Replace Armor Proficiency: Plate with Superior Will, and I would even go as far as replacing Improved Defenses with Superior Fortitude. (Matter of fact, not entirely sure how you got access to armor prof, plate)
The end result screws one point of your Reflex defense, which isn't great, but the buff in the other two NADs should help mitigate the effects.
Your AC calculations seem off, since it should already be 28 in Scale +3. 


I would also pick Impiltur as a background, since I think generic HP is more of a help than specific damage resists.

I think Threatening Rush (burst marking) works better for you than the +1 AC from weapon masters strike, though whether at-wills matter at level 13 is a different question.

I would pick Glowering Threat at level 2,   Ignore Weakness at 6, and Clearheaded at 10.


If you want to deal damage, Marked Scourge is much better than Pinning Challenge. But more importantly, I would drop one standard action power for an immediate interrupt. Fighters have access to a few, and they do come in handy.
Ah, my understanding was he was concentrating more on damage as an off-tank, and thus raw survivability wasn't quite the requirement it normally is.  In that case, yeah, don't bother with a Fullblade.  In fact, I might argue dropping down to a one-hander and holding a shield would be better, the defensive value outweighing the loss od damage.
Don't forget to add on a dragonshard to squeeze some more damage out of shocking flame.
Hybrid tempest fighter with ranger, give up a quarry die to slow when you hit, and enjoy selecting powers from TWO well supported classes.  Musashi in my sig is geared a bit more like a striker, but with a few changes he could be more defendery.
Ah, my understanding was he was concentrating more on damage as an off-tank.


Why would you think he was trying to do something that doesn't exist?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Why would you think he was trying to do something that doesn't exist?



Let me also note, my goal is to be striker competitive (not equal) damage, with some decent tanking. I intend to be in a party with another tank so being the defacto 'wall' is not necessarily my goal.  



>_>
FWIW, one of the default replies to "striker competitive with decent tanking" is a pursuit (flail using) Avenger.  Prone on your basic, take the woodshed powers and use them to actually take the targeted creature off to the side.  Enjoy. (Prone monsters have limited options... and if they do run away from you, you get kinda silly damage bonuses... so that won't happen frequently)

You end up not being a full striker because you end up not taking the usual complement of off-action powers, and thus not having the spike damage that's part of the striker definition... but your at-will DPR won't suffer too much.

But that's neither a Berserker, nor a Tempest Fighter, nor anything that marks (pre Paragon) nor anything Str Based, so I don't know if it's something the OP would be interested in. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Right, Planeswalker, you should be correcting him on improper tactics and understanding of game design instead of encouraging faulty MMO mentalities. I had actually missed his comment about "with another tank" with my initial comment about needing feats for +Defense.

Unless you are capable of >1 KPR (Less can work, but you're asking for trouble) or are a Burst Controller, you don't go off on your own, you focus fire and help cluster enemies for the bursts. Because you aren't off on your own, your ability to mark and punish is only getting in the way of the actual Defender unless you're fantastic at setting up Sophie's Choice with non-mark punishments and penalties, which you don't actually need to be a Defender to do. Basically, what's happening is people thinking Defender mechanics are a neat way to increase DPR, but failing to realize that Punishment powers are so freaking common, that what they really want is to be a "decently tough striker with IAs", and I think we all know the answer to that already: Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Tactical Warpriest.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Right, Planeswalker, you should be correcting him on improper tactics and understanding of game design instead of encouraging faulty MMO mentalities. I had actually missed his comment about "with another tank" with my initial comment about needing feats for +Defense.

Unless you are capable of >1 KPR (Less can work, but you're asking for trouble) or are a Burst Controller, you don't go off on your own, you focus fire and help cluster enemies for the bursts. Because you aren't off on your own, your ability to mark and punish is only getting in the way of the actual Defender unless you're fantastic at setting up Sophie's Choice with non-mark punishments and penalties, which you don't actually need to be a Defender to do. Basically, what's happening is people thinking Defender mechanics are a neat way to increase DPR, but failing to realize that Punishment powers are so freaking common, that what they really want is to be a "decently tough striker with IAs", and I think we all know the answer to that already: Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Tactical Warpriest.


I'm playing a Ranger|Cleric right now, could you give me an example of a build which works with Tactical Warpriest?
There's a few threads out there.
(hint: that's 5 different links)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
There's a few threads out there.
(hint: that's 5 different links)


Hah, you linked to my own thread ;)
OP, I think it really depends on what sort of flavor you are going for. If you want to defend well and do good single traget damage, then the berserker, fighter (tempest or great weapon), or even pursuit avenger (as was pointed out) can do the job. And you said there was a defender in your group already... then in my opinion, I'd want something that was a bit different and still got the job done.

An arid half-orc (or bugbear for a large weapon) berserkerer, mc fighter (for Rain of Blows), with a gouge is pretty intersting. You'll have among the highest AC in the game (in a loin cloth and nothing else!), good defenses, good initiative because your Dex is high, you'll do Van-damage against single targets with the gouge, you can take feats and items to help you charge, you can take skills not normaly asscoiated with fighters (or defenders in general) such as stealth and acrobatics (via background), plus your other skills won't suffer because you are in cloth armor and have no armor check penalties...all in all, a very cool character that does what you say you want in a way that probably no ther character in the game does.

I gotta say, I love the berserker...especially if there is a primary defender in the group. But I agree that they are not what is norrmally known as optimized...but they are very versatile and if you've played other fighters before, he is quite different.