10/22/2012 Feature: "Modern Masters Explained"

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I thought the point of reprinting cards was to increase their supply so the price drops enough for it to be affordable.

Look, the collectors already have Alpha and Beta, they have Legends and Antiquities if they want to collect scarce cards and they have Vintage and Legacy to keep the prices high. For the rest of us, it would be nice to play in a tournament without going bankrupt and maybe even be able to afford multiple decks! Go ahead, increase the quantity ten times over! Make it so everyone has 8 tarmogoyfs!

Are you making a game people can play, or an expensive collector's item for the well-off?
24 packs is not the perfect box size for drafting. 36 gives you prize packs without busting into another box. Sure, drafting this format may be prize enough, but really, why play more than one round if there are no prizes to be had after the fact?
I'm also worried about MODO availability and prices. We've seen pack prices plummet with the introduction of a popular retro draftformat (Cube) and this might do the same for modern staples. Look what happened in 1 (!!) week of RtR drafting, shocklands went from 15-20 tickets to 4-6 tickets. And demand for those cards is significantly higher because they're standard legal.

To those saying this benefits players over collectors, be aware that the expected value of drafting older sets will drop dramatically. Say all modern staples' value drops with 50% on MODO, will it be worth it ever to draft older formats again? And the same might be true for never sets too. Knowing staples will be reprinted, your cards won't hold value in the long term. If an average draft costs you 8 tickets instead of 4 (that is entry - packs won - openings sold), your hobby all of sudden becomes twice as expensive.

Of course Wizards knows this and therefore they are doing a small print run. However on Magic Online even after just a week of drafting, supply heavily outways demand because a large percentage of the people just draft and don't ever play constructed (and if they do, it's mostly standard). I think it's gonna be really hard to control supply in such a way that it doesn't greatly affect prices online and I'm anxious to see how Wizards will implement this product on MODO.
I love it when I read comment after comment of spikes pretending to be experts on stuff they know nothing about (sarcasm). Go back and read how many comments say something to the effect that "this won't affect prices at all, they arent printing enough of them, it's just a limited print run.". Then go and read Aaron's article again and try and find the part where it says how many of these packs and sets and booster boxes they are actually shipping to retailers...can't find it? Funny how people become experts of/on their own assumptions, it's actually quite easy. First you make something up, then when people ask you about it, you keep making stuff up, then all you have to do is remember all the things you made up, then when you're proven wrong you deny you said anything.
I thought the point of reprinting cards was to increase their supply so the price drops enough for it to be affordable.

Look, the collectors already have Alpha and Beta, they have Legends and Antiquities if they want to collect scarce cards and they have Vintage and Legacy to keep the prices high. For the rest of us, it would be nice to play in a tournament without going bankrupt and maybe even be able to afford multiple decks! Go ahead, increase the quantity ten times over! Make it so everyone has 8 tarmogoyfs!

Are you making a game people can play, or an expensive collector's item for the well-off?




Why would anyone buy anything from RtR if those cards proved good enough for modern, they'd be reprinted in such massive quantities everyone could have 8 of them? Players are paying whatever it costs to get tarmagoyfs to play modern. It would be unfair to arbitrarily tell them today that everyone can how have 8 in June, but thanks for supporting modern.

With reprints, WOTC can basically figure out what the market thinks is 'fair' for a card, and reprint enough of them that the card hovers around that fair price. With legacy, had WOTC been able to do this when underground sea was $60, modern wouldn't exist. 

As it is, WOTC needs to have people believe that the cards they open in current packs can hold value. Further, if WOTC wants players to buy the cards to play Modern or Legacy, the reprint policy and a set like this one reduce the massive risk to buyers that WOTC would make an annoucement that the card they just bought is now going to have a significantly higher supply. I would not buy cards to play Modern if I thought WOTC at some point might decide everyone should just have 8 of them.

Formats can't grow when people can't have confidence in buying the cards to play the format. Maintaining some level of value is more important to growth than simply shoving cards into everyone's hands. Modern reprints are about managing supply to prevent rising costs than making things cheap.       

Everyone comparing this to FTV is reading far too much into the limit.  They're running a whole Grand Prix on the set.


The smaller run means it's not at Walmart, they won't have prerelease and release events to push it, and they don't expect LGSs to run drafts on it.  That takes out a lot of volume.  But it's nowhere near "2 per store" or whatever the FTV limit was.


What I think people are underestimating is how much filler the set will have.  With the shock lands reprinted, Modern doesn't have that much that's really hard to get.  Off the top of my head:


Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Noble Hierarch, Elspeth, Cryptic Command, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, Life from the Loam, maybe the original Swords ... 


I'm leaving some off I'm sure, but remember you need 15 mythics before they even get to rares.  By the time we get down to commons and uncommons, I'm sure there will be lots of stuff that seems like it didn't need a reprint.  And Mythics are entering the world at 1 in 8 packs, at $7 per pack, which means $56 is spent for every mythic that's opened.  If there aren't enough good rares to absorb that price, I think they might be pricing above market and so it shouldn't even matter how much volume they put out.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

And a question: why is reprinting fetch lands out of the question? They are exactly the sort of card that should be reprinted.



  • Cards are reprints from Eighth Edition through Alara Reborn



Flooded Strand and so are too old (not even in Modern). Misty Rainforest and so are too recent (post-Alara). So, they simply aren't on the list.


[<o>]
To WotC: Chronicles was a mistake?!
As a ten-year-old whose collection started with Revised, Fallen Empires, and Chronicles, and was completely oblivious of any "secondary market," it comes as a revelation to me that Chronicles is considered a mistake. I certainly had fun with it at the time, and since I went on to spend over a thousand dollars on a lifetime hobby, I'd say giving me access to Urzatron and Nebuchadnezzar was a net positive for WotC.

To some posters here: This won't affect prices?!
It's a simplification, but you think about a basic supply and demand curve, even a modest 10% increase in supply can cause prices to drop by 25% or more. Of course, demand for Modern staples is not simple. For example, more availability could increase popularity of the format; in this scenario, there might be 10% more Modern players, each of which are paying pre-Modern-Masters prices. But, hey, that's still thousands more happy Magic players! You can't blame WotC for being conservative with this experiment, and you also can't argue that this isn't a move in the "right" direction. So IMHO, give them the benefit of the doubt. 
To start, I own probably x4 or more of the cards likely in despite for reprint (Tarmogoyf, Dark Confident, Vendilion etc.) That said, I fully support these reprints. I think the modern coverage this weekend is a good example of how exciting Modern can be and it is dissappointing that price is a barrier for player participation. I don't know many that play legacy and the reason is that cost is too much of a barrier for entry. Supply will always limit its competitive participation.

I believe collectors should focus on cards that are subject to the reprint policy if they wish to complain. Nothing was saying that Tarmogoyf, DC, or Arcbound Ravager couldn't have been reprinted. Why are they complaining? It was always a possibility. I think wizards wants to enable some potential players and bolster interest in a format that would otherwise suffer.

This is a good idea for wizards and the players. I believe even collectors will benefit. New art means new potential card acquisitions and old copies are unique to the new iterations. Increased modern participation will also increase demand for the old supply. So no "the sky isn't falling."

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>

The reason you get asked "When are you going to reprint Tarmogoyf" over and over is because it was a Future Sight Card and specifically printed as a "card from the future being printed *before* it's home set".  Printing it in a Reprint Set doesn;t really count.  This does sound exciting, but frankly I'm hesitant to get my hopes up based on the awful reasoning which prevails at WotC right now regarding limited.  
the awful reasoning which prevails at WotC right now regarding limited.  

Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain this to me? 

the awful reasoning which prevails at WotC right now regarding limited.  

Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain this to me? 



Gladly.  The prevailing reasoning is that anything which is hard is not fun.  And that deciding between cards of a similar power level is hard.  So, they add a ton of chaff - worthless cards that no one ever wants to pick - to the list of commons so that you can look at a pack and immediately rule out 8-9 of the cards.



Edit: This article sums it up: www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a... 
Personally I think WotC should stop caring about collectors in what is, at the end of the day, a glorified childrens game.

Also Mythics still suck. 
Gladly.  The prevailing reasoning is that anything which is hard is not fun.  And that deciding between cards of a similar power level is hard.  So, they add a ton of chaff - worthless cards that no one ever wants to pick - to the list of commons so that you can look at a pack and immediately rule out 8-9 of the cards.

I guess I understand what you're saying, but as a constant Sealed player (I prefer it to drafts because I feel I get more variety and range in the cards I can play), RTR Sealed is extremely difficult, particularly building a mana base. And for every Chronic Flooding which you can never consider playing, there are 14 playable cards. There is very, very little in RTR which isn't viable in Sealed, and you'll always end up with more playables than you need in any 2 + Splash configuration, which is almost always what you're doing. Basically I find Sealed that the challenges in Sealed don't depend on a flat power band. 

I don't know, RTR Sealed seems a lot harder to me than, say, Onslaught Sealed ever was. I can't speak to draft because while I'm not the worst drafter in the world, I don't do it nearly as much and I'm certainly nowhere near the best. I feel like there's way less "total unplayable garbage" now than there has ever been in Magic. I mean, go look at the worst cards in literally every set they've ever made - they've always been horrendous, that hasn't changed. What has changed is that there are actually less of them, so they stand out a lot.

So someone suggested City of Brass for the other art depicted in the article... but that can't be because it's not modern.


Any other guesses?


Edit: doh! didn't realize it was reprinted in Eighth Edition

"Rock beats scissors, paper beats rock, scissors beat paper, rock beats scissors..." I'm not interested in what card beats what. That's a circular discussion.

So someone suggested City of Brass for the other art depicted in the article... but that can't be because it's not modern.


Any other guesses?


City of Brass is in Modern via its printing in 8th Edition. 
The interesting part about people complaining that Tarmo is Mythic: given the number of rares in Future Sight and number of mythics in this, Tarmogoyf at Mythic is only barely rarer than if you were cracking Future Sight packs. Printing it at rare would have made it almost twice more likely to crack than in Future Sight. Anything that gets printed at rare that wasn't part of Alara block is going to be in higher quantity than in the old sets.

My belief is that every rare and mythic is going to be something that currently sees play in high level Modern events, though some will be in (very) niche archetypes or be sideboard cards. It's at common and uncommon you're likely to see a lot of the development work to make this draft format good. Commons and uncommons are relatively easy to get a hold of anyway so having a bit of chaff at that level is not going to be as troublesome.
To WotC: Chronicles was a mistake?!
As a ten-year-old whose collection started with Revised, Fallen Empires, and Chronicles, and was completely oblivious of any "secondary market," it comes as a revelation to me that Chronicles is considered a mistake. I certainly had fun with it at the time, and since I went on to spend over a thousand dollars on a lifetime hobby, I'd say giving me access to Urzatron and Nebuchadnezzar was a net positive for WotC. 



Think about it from the perspective of people that had the good stuff from Chronicles before it was reprinted. Erhnam djinn lost 60%+ of its value when its supply was suddenly something like 10 times greater according to this article. How do you think the guys that had them when that happened felt? What would you have thought if you were a guy with juzam djinns whenever a new set was scheduled for release? People got nervous any high dollar card could be reprinted to low, low prices and cashed out. Once that happened, obviously attendance dropped because those people weren't around, which leads to even less attendance. This article clearly states why it was a mistake. It drove people away by creating panic their cards would be reprinted and become worthless. That is what happened at the store I played at, and that store went out of business.   

It is kind of sad that all those packs of Chronicles they were selling would cause the end of their business.  

Personally I think WotC should stop caring about collectors in what is, at the end of the day, a glorified childrens game.


Say that to the collector's lawyers.



Why do you think MaRo has to say something to the effect of "We can't undo the Reprint Policy. I can't talk on the why not. I can't even talk on why I can't talk about it!" every time the subject is raised on his Tumblr? Collectors sued WotC, and they won! (or at least reached a compromise a.k.a. the Reserved List).

[<o>]
People think a stable secondary market is only good for collectors. It's not. Uncertainty in whether cards will hold value can keep players from wanting to jump into Modern because they're not sure if it's worth paying now for (Dark Confident/Tarmogoyf/whathaveyou) or if it's likely to drop in the near future. If the bottom dramatically falls out on Modern staple prices (I'm not talking like 5-10$ out of 50$, where the play value you got for the cards for playing a few events with them might cover the investment loss) this will likely cause a lot of people to stay away. By being conservative, WotC can reassure collectors, but also by extension general people who are thinking of getting into the format, because the price drop will be contained, or cancelled by rise in demand that keeps up or beats the rise in supply.

If you already can't get into it because the costs are prohibitive for your budget, you don't see that as a problem. For people who are already able to invest into the format but for whom it's a non-trivial investment (like me), some amount of stability is a make or break factor for their decision.
You also have to understand the state of mind at the time at Chronicles came out, not with today's hindsight.  The was no pro tour, there was just one format, and there had only been 6 expansions ever, and customers had come to understand that once a set sells out they aren't printing more.  New players coming in looked back to old sets with the wonder we now have for new ones.  Trading card games were new, but collectible cards were a long held hobby.  Many people saw Magic as fantasy version of baseball cards, and thought their elder dragons were as untouchable as a star's rookie. Collecting was arguably easier to do than actually playing, since there weren't many LGS going yet either.

In hindsight we know reprints, power creep, and changing environments.  So I see little chance of a Chronicles style backlash, especially given how telegraphed this is.  But it was completely understandable back in the day.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

That analogy amuses me because, if it actually mirrored the world of 'baseball cards' then the printing of Chronicles wouldn't really have impacted the value of an older version of the same card. Because that particular version of the card would be just as rare as it had always been. As an example, it doesn't matter how many times they reprint Sengir Vampire (probably 10 cents if you want one), it'll still cost you $30 to get an Alpha Sengir Vampire.

That's why I really think reprinting is ideal, basically - people who buy them 100% for play value just want the cheapest version, as cheap as they can be. People who buy them 100% for collectability just want the rarest version, and it shouldn't really matter that there are other, crappier/more prevalent versions. Reprinting helps the former players, and is irrelevant to the latter. The only people it hurts are those who are solely investing financially because they can no longer sell "collector's edition" type cards to people who just want something to play with. And I don't care about those people.

Of course, very few people are 100% in either of those categories, plus humans are grossly irrational.  
I am not a native english speaker, so, please, be gentle with my bad sentences.

Modern Master ? I will really support this product, it seems a very good idea, and I will buy boosters.

I don't think Tarmogoyf as a mythic rare is a big problem, Wizards would like to sells boosters is'nt it. I can understand. I don't really like the premium booster cost, and your arguments seems a bit silly, but why not ? Ok, I'll pay this price.

The first thing that displeased me is the limited quantities. Will it be like the From The Vault chest ? This marvellous product I've never see under 100€ in any shop in France, for a MSRP of 35$. But maybe you couldn't publicly argue that you simply want to see if players would buy these boosters, and you only want to try.

One funny thing: I saw Chronicles. I did'nt heard anything about angers of collectors. I was happy to see reprints. I thinks if there were mistakes, it was only because the number of unplayable cards that were reprint. I was happy with this expansion.

Now, about the article: it angers me a bit. Really.
How the hell this story about the resserved list come back... again, and again. Wizards feels hand bounded ? What a joke ! Wizards said more things that should bound thier hands, like never reprint with black borders, or use Mythic rare only for flavour (so, I don't think that Tarmogoyf as a mythic really follow this line of conduct). But nobody really care about.
Isn't silly the fact that a competitive player must find cards that have 15 or 20 years old in order to play Legacy or Vintage ? 15 years for paper card !
Wizards made a good work with Mtg, I really still see it in shops in ten years. Will new players need to find 30 years old paper cards to play in all tournaments ?

Like others players, I'd like you BURN this stupid reserved list. 20th anniversary should be a good event for that. We are players, not financial traders.
 To some posters here: This won't affect prices?!
It's a simplification, but you think about a basic supply and demand curve, even a modest 10% increase in supply can cause prices to drop by 25% or more. Of course, demand for Modern staples is not simple. For example, more availability could increase popularity of the format; in this scenario, there might be 10% more Modern players, each of which are paying pre-Modern-Masters prices. But, hey, that's still thousands more happy Magic players! You can't blame WotC for being conservative with this experiment, and you also can't argue that this isn't a move in the "right" direction. So IMHO, give them the benefit of the doubt. 

I quite agree.  But I think they're aiming this so as not to reduce prices on meaningful rares, but rather to encourage new entrants without raising them.  If you've been curious about Modern but sitting on the side, this has to be seen as an opportunity.  Plus, to someone like SSG who makes a good business selling these staples, I believe they can raise inventories for a little while rather than reduce price to market clearing.  That's not something they would normally do for higgpher supply, but for a short-term influx it makes sense.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

That analogy amuses me because, if it actually mirrored the world of 'baseball cards' then the printing of Chronicles wouldn't really have impacted the value of an older version of the same card. Because that particular version of the card would be just as rare as it had always been. As an example, it doesn't matter how many times they reprint Sengir Vampire (probably 10 cents if you want one), it'll still cost you $30 to get an Alpha Sengir Vampire.

 

Ultimately it didn't, really.  But people thought it would, just long enough for a brief panic.  "Irrational" as you say.


Edit: Actually, I'd like to amend that.  The original BBs will always retain a premium over WBs.  But the availability of inferior substitutes will affect their price as some people say "well it's better but not that much better."


(Also they really did overprint the heck out or that set.  I remember buying CH packes for $.50 at a KayBee Toys.)

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

The non-redeemable drafts online aren't going to cost 6.99 per pack, are they?  I'm interested in drafting this, but (not being a constructed player) there's no way in the world I'm paying extra to draft old cards I can't keep.
Does this set offer anything for EDH players?

or can i go back to sleep?
The reason you get asked "When are you going to reprint Tarmogoyf" over and over is because it was a Future Sight Card and specifically printed as a "card from the future being printed *before* it's home set".  Printing it in a Reprint Set doesn;t really count.  This does sound exciting, but frankly I'm hesitant to get my hopes up based on the awful reasoning which prevails at WotC right now regarding limited.  


When you say that Tarmogoyf was "specifically printed as a 'card from the future being printed *before* it[s] home set'," are you basing this on fact, or do you not understand how Future Sight worked?  Not every future-bordered card (or whatever you want to call them) was designed with the sole purpose of being reprinted in a "home set."  Bloodshot Trainee, Boldwyr Intimidator, Graven Cairns, Mass of Ghouls, Mistmeadow Skulk, and Phosphorescent Feast were all reprinted in home sets, but that's only six of eighty-one (assuming I counted correctly), and not every single card was printed with plans to find a home for the card (Steamflogger Boss).

Rules Advisor

That analogy amuses me because, if it actually mirrored the world of 'baseball cards' then the printing of Chronicles wouldn't really have impacted the value of an older version of the same card. Because that particular version of the card would be just as rare as it had always been. As an example, it doesn't matter how many times they reprint Sengir Vampire (probably 10 cents if you want one), it'll still cost you $30 to get an Alpha Sengir Vampire.

Erhnam Djinn from Arabian Nights is still $20 despite being reprinted three more times after Chronicles and not being played in any format.

The lesson that Wizards learned from Chronicles was one about psychology. Wizards learned that collectors are fickle and that if Wizards does not tread lightly around them, they will explode in irrational anger.
The reason you get asked "When are you going to reprint Tarmogoyf" over and over is because it was a Future Sight Card and specifically printed as a "card from the future being printed *before* it's home set".  Printing it in a Reprint Set doesn;t really count.  This does sound exciting, but frankly I'm hesitant to get my hopes up based on the awful reasoning which prevails at WotC right now regarding limited.  



When you say that Tarmogoyf was "specifically printed as a 'card from the future being printed *before* it[s] home set'," are you basing this on fact, or do you not understand how Future Sight worked?  Not every future-bordered card (or whatever you want to call them) was designed with the sole purpose of being reprinted in a "home set."  Bloodshot Trainee, Boldwyr Intimidator, Graven Cairns, Mass of Ghouls, Mistmeadow Skulk, and Phosphorescent Feast were all reprinted in home sets, but that's only six of eighty-one (assuming I counted correctly), and not every single card was printed with plans to find a home for the card (Steamflogger Boss).



You counted right, 81 futureshifted cards.


Some are clearly just shout-outs: Goldmeadow Lookout is a preview of Goldmeadow Harrier and Lorwyn, not itself; I don't think it'll ever be reprinted (return to lorwyn with spellshapers?).


Tarmogoy was created only to have a card with "planeswalker" in the reminder text. The fact it ended being the most valued card in the whole block was due to underrating its real power level.


[<o>]
So let me get this straight; the cost is 6.99 a pack, so it will cost 20-25 for a draft? So does it cost Wizards more to print, ship, and advertise? It seems like I'm being ripped off. Wow there's a foil in each pack! Big deal if it's a common. The average player can't afford 6.99 a pack and the competitive modern player already has these cards. I don't see this as being a big hit, I see it as a big DUD.
The non-redeemable drafts online aren't going to cost 6.99 per pack, are they?  I'm interested in drafting this, but (not being a constructed player) there's no way in the world I'm paying extra to draft old cards I can't keep.

Just to be clear, you're not confusing "non-redeemable" with "phantom", are you?  Because I know I was at first.

"Phantom" drafts are like cube.  You put back what you draft afterward.


"Non-redeemable" is like any other set for online, but you can't turn in a full set of virtual cards and get a paper set mailed to you.  This is how each of the MED sets were done, and they all had reasonable draft popularity on MTGO.  (At least the last few did.)


So I expect it will be a limited time but full-priced draftable choice.  You limited-only guys can then dump your singles to the bots to fuel the addiction.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I really have trouble sheadding a tear for you players that snivel and wine about the reserve list. If you game is so poor that you need those cards to make it exciting again--your pitiful. Take the P9 for example...

AAAnd right on schedule, as soon as someone mentions the Reserved List, someone else shows up with a ridiculous strawman about the P9 even though the only other person who has even mentioned them gave them as an example of things that should NOT be reprinted.

Seriously, READ the arguments people give about this, with an eye toward understanding, not wilfully misunderstanding, them. Don't guess what their reasons are; plenty of people have given them, in plain black and white. There's just no excuse for this kind of nonsense, and I'm finding myself with less and less patience for forum (ab)users who waste my and others' time with this kind of crap.

EDIT
And those of you that disdain us collectors in favor of modern business, what a pity you can only see dollar signs in a truly historic game.

I was going to leave off with the above, but this line is such egregious BS, even compared to the rest of your post, that I have to single it out. Seriously, projecting much? If anyone is guilty of this, it's the collectors.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
ITT: People investing in cardstock after being told those cards are fair game to be reprinted are angry because people want those cards to be reprinted.

Modern is such a farce.
Personally I think WotC should stop caring about collectors in what is, at the end of the day, a glorified childrens game.

Say that to the collector's lawyers.Why do you think MaRo has to say something to the effect of "We can't undo the Reprint Policy. I can't talk on the why not. I can't even talk on why I can't talk about it!" every time the subject is raised on his Tumblr? Collectors sued WotC, and they won! (or at least reached a compromise a.k.a. the Reserved List).

What, you think collectors successfully sued a card-making company for making more cards? Such a case would never have even gotten the ball rolling.

 Even if Wizards of the Coast removed the Reserve List, they would not be at risk of losing any lawsuits, since there would be no actual damages. The worst threat would be throwing money at a frivolous class action lawsuit. The idea that they risked a lawsuit just by printing Chronicles is absurd.
The reason you get asked "When are you going to reprint Tarmogoyf" over and over is because it was a Future Sight Card and specifically printed as a "card from the future being printed *before* it's home set".   

This is a common misunderstanding, but remains just that - a misunderstanding. There was never any promise that every "futureshifted" card would be reprinted - those are POSSIBLE futures, not guarantees about the future.

Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Collectors sued WotC, and they won! (or at least reached a compromise a.k.a. the Reserved List).


If this was true, there'd be a record of the filing at the very least. To the best of my knowledge no-one has come up with one.

It may be that the current policy is an overreaction to threats of something like this. This would explain a lot. But I'd bet heavily against there being any actual legal action involved.

(I say overreaction because such threats would be empty IMO, such a case should be thrown out of court basically instantaneously - but IANAL so anything I say about that should probably be taken with a grain of salt).
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
A lot of people seem to be thinking of "collectors" as people who hoard expensive cards in a backroom, probably around some sort of shrine. The first thing I thought of when hearing "collectors", was "second market card shops", eg Star City Games.

Last I checked, SCG supported getting rid of the reserved list. They're more aware than most that the effects of reprinting a card are not as simple as "increasing supply drives down prices", because it often leads to increased demand as well; and if nothing else, it means more stuff for them to sell. If WotC is avoiding printing enough of this set for retailers' sake, then the response from retailers should be "Y'know what? How about you don't do us any more 'favours'.".

EDIT: Having said that, when I say "last I checked", I mean it; I'm not using it as a form of sarcasm. It has been a year or so since I last had then-current information on this brought to my attention. I don't see any reason why anything would have changed since then, but I can't definitively say it hasn't.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
On the topic of the Reserved List,

The failure of Chronicles was that it was released in 1995, too early in the game's life to establish itself as a collectible. 

Not because it over printed certain cards.

WOTC, Hasbro, whoever it is that decides that Chronicles or Revised hampered the collectibility of cards, get a reality check. 

the dual lands were printed in the same quantity as 4th edition, yet the prices on those lands are egregious for no other reason than greed, and not one of supply 

Aftermarket values
 Serendib Efreet  
City Of Brass  
 Sylvan Library  
In the Eye of Chaos  
 Land Equilibrium 

The truth is,
the aftermarket value of Legends and Arabian Nights is exactly what it deserves to be because WOTC failed through creating the reserved list of guaranteeing the nostalgia of its brand

Modern Masters finally comes close to what fans of the game deserve. 

If you want Magic as a brand to succeed, you have only to look to Disney for marketing strategy

The reason Serendib Efreet and City Of Brass are worth more than In The Eye Of Chaos or Land Equilibrium is precisely because those cards saw heavier play from being reprinted to begin with.

As a COLLECTOR,
and one who values the aesthetic differences between modern and legacy,
and has nostalgia for Legacy,

the idea that the aesthetic quality of A/B/U/R through the The Dark to Chronicles has no aesthetic differences really turns me off of your company in general.

I do treasure cards from the The Dark, for being from the Dark, more than the same cards reprinted in Chronicles. 

This is what it means to be a collector. 

If WOTC cannot capitalize on this, then they have failed their customers. 

Who are the idiots who feel that reprints effect the collector value of original cards?

they shouldn't

I would argue that it is reprints that increase the values of my older cards. 

and not the other way around

also,
Magic will never succeed as a collectible and be recognized as a collectible and fine art by the masses until it chooses to capitalize on its nostalgia 

which it is wont to do 

Just a couple of thoughts.

Reprints will bring down prices, if only because of the reaction of people speculating one way or another in the market.  There's going to be an initial, emotional response to this -- and that's a big part of the reason for the timing, and how carefully-phrased each official announcement on this will be.  I can't think of a single reprint that's actually raised the price of the parent card, excluding Alpha/Beta staples which likely would rise independently of those reprints anyway.  Meddling Mage and Psionic Blast definitely didn't go up in value when they were reprinted.

Regarding the pricing of the packs, I think it is partially a money-grab on WotC's part -- but the older formats don't drive sales on their own.  Standard and current block drafts drive sales, there's very little new sales driving the older formats -- that's the reason why Star City holds the Legacy tourneys each week and not WotC.  WotC doesn't make anything from second-hand sales, which are the linchpin of the older formats.  WotC has to have a revenue stream to justify the support of a format -- and this should at least provide enough revenue to determine interest and avenues for the long term support of Modern.

I do think this is a death knell for any official support of Legacy or Vintage at the GP or higher level, if anyone had any hopes at all (however dim) of that happening.

Chronicles was a bad, bad, bad thing.  For so many reasons.  However, a big part of that was not only the collectable aspect -- but that there was only one format for sanctioned play back then.  The split between Type 1 and Type 2 (what we now know as Vintage and Standard respectively) didn't exist ... I think, my timing on that might be off.  Today, the formats are far more stratified and in this case the product is impacting only the most recent of the older formats, Modern.  This release won't have an impact on Vintage and Legacy as the Eternal formats, nor will it impact Standard.  This is very targeted to one format, and one format alone -- and Modern is the format that WotC has to grow as the premier Eternal format if they ever plan to support it at the highest levels of sanctioned play.

I would almost bet you that even WotC doesn't have a planned set run for this product yet -- because they're more interested in the public reaction and analysis than any of us are, 10,000x over.  I know they've had focus groups and brought in a lot of the secondary-sales owners/representatives to discuss this sort of thing, so how the market reacts and the public reaction to this will go a long way in determining how this is done again (or if it is done again) in the future.

Bottom line: Nothing is written in hard stone yet.  There will be more Tarmogoyfs in circulation, but how many and how many new players it adds to support Modern are questions that simply can't be answered just yet.

Later,

Don!

A failure to plan, is a plan to fail.
Braingeyser 

Revised is not a rare set.

At all.

All of you buying 3rd Edition duals and not Unlimited (which the price actually compares to!)

are just morons

You hear that?

If you buy 3rd Edition duals for over $15 you are an airhead

you could spend the exact same amount of money for a 2nd Edition dual but you choose not to

your loss

airheads

you're all a bunch of idiots

you know nothing about the game, the print quantity, or scarcity issues

you know nothing

*

In fact,

analyze the actual reason that 2nd and 3rd edition dual land values are so similar

and it comes back to what I was saying before

AESTHETIC

theyre not black border,

so people are swindling themselves whenever they choose not to get a 2nd edition dual

and what does it come down to? they look the same. it just an aesthetic choice.

*

Drop of Honey 

HA!

Compare the value of City of Brass to that

Chronicles has been KIND to collectors

very very very kind

In fact, overprinted or not, a pack of Chronicles is still worth more than packs in Standard today

WOTC,
Please reprint my Drop Of Honey so that it could one day be worth as much as City of Brass
I am begging you.

Please please please . 
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