Re-brand it (4E)

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It's becoming more and more clear that D&DN won't appeal to a good part of the 4E audience. 
The question is what this audience is going to do when the new edition will ship. Some will get on and adopt it anyway, some others will just stick to 4E or move to other systems. 

But there may be a 3rd way: having the edition rebranded as something else other than D&D and continue publication. After all if WotC has decided D&DN is where they want to take the IP (and they have any right to do so), it would make sense to branch out.

The 4E game can be just for digital distribution, as pdf or via DDI, if the cost of printing is not sustainable.
Most of the material available for D&DN will of course be shared between the two, keeping the cost at minimum: it's just a matter of providing stats for use in 4E through the digital format.
This way WotC can retain paying customers instead of losing them to competitors (Pathfinder docet).

I for one don't really care if it is or isn't "D&D": it's a game I enjoy and I'd be happy to pay to support it. 


Or perhaps I'm just going through the bargaining phase of grief. Next will be depression... 


They decided to move on to D&D Next becuase 4e wasn't doing well enough, they aren't going to continue publishing 4e materials. Besides, if they wanted to, why would it be under a different name?
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
im kind of satisfied with the amount of material there is out there for 4e. i would def look at fanmade material, and im working on my own, but im just personally not seeing a need for a rebranding effort.
They decided to move on to D&D Next becuase 4e wasn't doing well enough, they aren't going to continue publishing 4e materials. Besides, if they wanted to, why would it be under a different name?



It was doing ok, but not as well expected. Still it is probably a profitable business. 
Changing the brand would avoid cannibalization between the two product lines and generating confusion in the audience.

They decided to move on to D&D Next becuase 4e wasn't doing well enough, they aren't going to continue publishing 4e materials. Besides, if they wanted to, why would it be under a different name?



It was doing ok, but not as well expected. Still it is probably a profitable business. 
Changing the brand would avoid cannibalization between the two product lines and generating confusion in the audience.



It wasn't profitable enough, that's the bottom line.
Cannibalization? If I udnerstand what you mean by that, it's not any sort of issue so could you explain this? 
If they wanted to avoid confusing the audience Essentials would never hace been released, that's obviously no problem for them.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
 
It wasn't profitable enough, that's the bottom line.
Cannibalization? If I udnerstand what you mean by that, it's not any sort of issue so could you explain this? 
If they wanted to avoid confusing the audience Essentials would never hace been released, that's obviously no problem for them.



it's not necessarily a matter of profitability but rather of market share. They have gone from being the far out RPG market leader to second place behind Pathfinder. That's the reason for the whole DDN operation: trying to regain the higher spot by getting those customers back.

For cannibalisation I mean having two lines of products with the same brand that steal customers from each other. When looking for 'D&D' in a shop a customers should never have to be asked: "which one?". That was actually one of the big problems with the D&D Essential line - and I don't think WotC has any interest in repeating that.
 
It wasn't profitable enough, that's the bottom line.
Cannibalization? If I udnerstand what you mean by that, it's not any sort of issue so could you explain this? 
If they wanted to avoid confusing the audience Essentials would never hace been released, that's obviously no problem for them.



it's not necessarily a matter of profitability but rather of market share. They have gone from being the far out RPG market leader to second place behind Pathfinder. That's the reason for the whole DDN operation: trying to regain the higher spot by getting those customers back.

For cannibalisation I mean having two lines of products with the same brand that steal customers from each other. When looking for 'D&D' in a shop a customers should never have to be asked: "which one?". That was actually one of the big problems with the D&D Essential line - and I don't think WotC has any interest in repeating that.



You just contradicted yourself in regard to profitability, so I'm a bit confused.


Fair enough in regards to Essentials.  
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)


You just contradicted yourself in regard to profitability, so I'm a bit confused. 



Profitability is about making money by having a positive balance between profit and loss. I think 4E achieved that. And there probably still money to be made from it.

Market share is the penetration of the product in the market. If it loses a significant quota, like 4E did to PF, then investors and company directors tend to become very nervous, no matter if the product is making money or not, because that means the brand (as a company asset) is losing value.  

So my point is: WotC get to make some money (and some good PR), a group of customers is not alienated and gets more of the game they like. That's potentially a win-win scenario. 


You just contradicted yourself in regard to profitability, so I'm a bit confused. 



Profitability is about making money by having a positive balance between profit and loss. I think 4E achieved that. And there probably still money to be made from it.

Market share is the penetration of the product in the market. If it loses a significant quota, like 4E did to PF, then investors and company directors tend to become very nervous, no matter if the product is making money or not, because that means the brand (as a company asset) is losing value.  

So my point is: WotC get to make some money (and some good PR), a group of customers is not alienated and gets more of the game they like. That's potentially a win-win scenario. 



But it almost  certainly won't happen.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)


But it almost  certainly won't happen.



In which case that means...

I'm just going through the bargaining phase of grief. Next will be depression...



Ironically, if it had been called something else in the beginning it probably would have been lauded as a breakthrough in PPRPGs. People that loved 3.5 might even be playing it side by side with "D&D." Unfortunately, as a returning/lapsed gamer, I probably would never have found it--there are probably many like myself in that regard. It will be interesting to see how 13th Age turns out and if we see some of the familiar 4e haters celebrating it as an achievement and alternating it at their table with Pathfinder or D&D Next.

Edit: like frothsof, I probably have enough 4e material to last me a long while, although there are a few things that we didn't get: Heroes of the Plane Above, Feywild Campaign Box to name a couple.
Ironically, if it had been called something else in the beginning it probably would have been lauded as a breakthrough in PPRPGs. People that loved 3.5 might even be playing it side by side with "D&D." Unfortunately, as a returning/lapsed gamer, I probably would never have found it--there are probably many like myself in that regard. It will be interesting to see how 13th Age turns out and if we see some of the familiar 4e haters celebrating it as an achievement and alternating it at their table with Pathfinder or D&D Next.



Interistingly, I'm a supporter of 13th Age myself (pre-prdered, doing the playtest and backed up the kickstarter). The point is that game just needs to worry about being good at what it does, without the many legacy issues of the D&D brand and the mission to 'please everyone'.
If what it take to keep 4E alive is taking 'D&D' off it, then be it.
Ironically, if it had been called something else in the beginning it probably would have been lauded as a breakthrough in PPRPGs. People that loved 3.5 might even be playing it side by side with "D&D." Unfortunately, as a returning/lapsed gamer, I probably would never have found it--there are probably many like myself in that regard. It will be interesting to see how 13th Age turns out and if we see some of the familiar 4e haters celebrating it as an achievement and alternating it at their table with Pathfinder or D&D Next.



Interistingly, I'm a supporter of 13th Age myself (pre-prdered, doing the playtest and backed up the kickstarter). The point is that game just needs to worry about being good at what it does, without the many legacy issues of the D&D brand and the mission to 'please everyone'.
If what it take to keep 4E alive is taking 'D&D' off it, then be it.

Yeah, I totally agree. If D&D were a person, that person would have a nervous breakdown from the pressure and criticism.

Hi everyone!!!


Just a little thought: i see lots of threads around the world about "quittin' 4th" for DnDN. Why? I think this kinda discussions are a bit "destructive" at the base. 

It's like people is lookin' for someone who'll agree on upgrading. This is a RPG, not a CCG or a Boardgame where new editions bring on the game for championships and the metagame changes. 


No edition should cancel the previous one: there are still great reasons to play some AD&D as well some 3E (I speak in general, I don't like 'em that much). 

Sorry, I wrote this just because I would like to see more threads about DnD 4th in the DnD 4th edition forums rather than nostalgic kinda threads. ;)


Cheers! No offense to anyone!!!
K_K

I agree with King Kaius.  I have one group I use for playtesting and I am still running my 4th edition campaign... we're at level 26 and climbing!  We'll figure out what our next campaign will be when we pass 30th level.  Until then, we'll keep on playing and loving 4e!

Aahah, glad to see some epic campaign going!!! 
That's another reason why I really like 4th edition...


I'm in a Forgotten Realm campaign at 12th level...We hope to reach 30th level (I TPKd 4 different fellowships )...And we're already planning the next  campaign!

4th edition has lots of building options, adventure hooks ideas and has a "easy to DM" feeling that's the most important thing for people like me that are gettin' "older" and need a very logic and concrete environment of rules and guidelines. 



I agree with King Kaius.  I have one group I use for playtesting and I am still running my 4th edition campaign... we're at level 26 and climbing!  We'll figure out what our next campaign will be when we pass 30th level.  Until then, we'll keep on playing and loving 4e!

I'm kinda annoyed that they didn't publish more race books. We got the dragon born and teifling books, but that's about it.
No elf/eladrin book.
No dwarf book.
No Gnome, Shifter, Deva, Revenant, Shade, Vryloka, halfling, pixie, minotaur...

So many posibilities.
Sure, someone could adapt and modify one from a previous edition, but that would be strictly house-rule.

Seems like another aspect of the game that was abandoned before it really got started.
I'm kinda annoyed that they didn't publish more race books. We got the dragon born and teifling books, but that's about it.
No elf/eladrin book.
No dwarf book.
No Gnome, Shifter, Deva, Revenant, Shade, Vryloka, halfling, pixie, minotaur...

So many posibilities.
Sure, someone could adapt and modify one from a previous edition, but that would be strictly house-rule.

Seems like another aspect of the game that was abandoned before it really got started.



I would have loved an eladrin book, that is my favorite race with elves as a distant second (Yes, I'm a fanboy :P), and it would fit with the theme of "Core races that haven't been player races before".
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)

Hi everyone!!!


Just a little thought: i see lots of threads around the world about "quittin' 4th" for DnDN. Why? I think this kinda discussions are a bit "destructive" at the base. 




Sure. And this thread is actually about keeping 4E going after DDN is released. Since having two D&Ds out there at the same time is not a good idea on the branding side (case in point: Essential), the proposal here is about having this product line continue under a new, different brand. 
While I cannot promise more printings of 4e material, the groups listed in my signature still play 3.5, and I am certain we will still play 4e after Next comes out.  That is as much support as any, for we are always eager for new blood.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Some thoughts:

The D&D4e Red Box bought me back to playing D&D.  A product that brought back past customers?  Any Brand Manager would be very happy with that.  However I understand that it did not appeal to many 3.5 players.  That would only have been a problem if 3.5 was being discontinued.  Was it?  No idea personally.

So is D&D Next an attempt to produce a product that will appeal to both market groups, the 3.5 players and 4e players?  If that is the game plan, then I would be worried.  I have no market data to base this upon, so it is pure supposition, but Pathfinder seems to suggest there is a large market for a 3.5 type product and my personal opinion is there is also market for an Essentials type product.  These are all Brand D&D. 

A good brand manager would want develop products underneath this excellent brand that target the identified audiences.  If this can be done in a clear and clean way (And 4e and 4 Essentials was not an example of clear and clean) then it is possible to have multiple products within the same range that do not cannibalise your own market share.  Which is a long way of saying I do not think "One Product" is the way to go.

Hey look, I managed to say all that without using the word "leverage" once ;)

So is D&D Next an attempt to produce a product that will appeal to both market groups, the 3.5 players and 4e players?  If that is the game plan, then I would be worried. 



Yes, that's very much the plan. 

So far the only time where the brand has been split into two product lines doing basically the same was with 4E and Essential. And results were poor. If there is a way of doing it right, great. No idea what that may be as I'm not a marketing person.        
I agree with King Kaius.  I have one group I use for playtesting and I am still running my 4th edition campaign... we're at level 26 and climbing!  We'll figure out what our next campaign will be when we pass 30th level.  Until then, we'll keep on playing and loving 4e!



I'm in a one or the other type of situation. The other being nothing.

My 4e group has flat out refused to look at DDN playtesting anymore and they just want to stick with 4e. I love 4e, but I want to continue playtesting. There are just no other groups within a 50 mile radius of me... so I end up with nothing.  

So far the only time where the brand has been split into two product lines doing basically the same was with 4E and Essential. And results were poor. If there is a way of doing it right, great. No idea what that may be as I'm not a marketing person.        



Indeed.  The whole 4e and Essentials thing was very confusing.  At least, when I wanted to choose what product to buy after the Red Box, I found it extremely confusing.  So don't use 4e and Essentials as a good example ;)

I do believe there is a market for a 3.5 type product and a 4e type product, and that they should all be under the D&D Brand umbrella.  It doesn't look like that is the direction WotC are heading.  It looks to me like they are in danger of creating a new product that will cannibalise and splinter their own market.  If that happens the beneficiaries will be the likes of Paizo

So far the only time where the brand has been split into two product lines doing basically the same was with 4E and Essential. And results were poor. If there is a way of doing it right, great. No idea what that may be as I'm not a marketing person.  



Actually there was also the Basic and Advanced D&D era where you had two different games.

I don't see why they couldn't re-brand 4E as "D&D: Big Damned Heroes!" or "D&D: Balance of Power" or something similar. Then they could leave 4E out of the "Next" equation entirely to deliver that perfect retro feel (though perhaps they would need to rebrand it D&DClassic or D&DRetro at that point).
My 4e group has flat out refused to look at DDN playtesting anymore and they just want to stick with 4e.

My 4e group came to the same conclusion, including me.

I have decided to stop looking at the Next boards, playtest material, reviews, or previews. Every time I do, I see more evidence that the game is being made for the old me -- the one that loved playing 1e/2e before he saw 3e and eventually 4e. Every article I read shows me that Next is anything but "next".

So maybe they'll switch course 90 degrees ('cause getting them to go 180 and start moving forward instead of backward is not likely to happen). And maybe, when it is finally released, there will be a game I want to play instead of 4e. But the playtest thus far is not going to endear me to it, and might just make me hate it prematurely. So I'll check it out when it is done. Until then, I'll play 4e.

And if I still don't like the finished Next product, I'll keep playing 4e.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
This is an open post to all who are worried about losing 4e.

I'm a 30+ year vet of the game. I started before 1st edition with the Chainmail set and played every edition to date. Yes, I've played Pathfinder too. And Gurps. And DungeonQuest. And.... you get the picture.

The game is what the DM makes of it.  I love 4e at the heroic level. Character classes are balanced, combat is vivid and the new aspects of the game, skill challenges in particular, were great. However, 4e is broken.  It's unplayable at Paragon and above.  My buddy just ran a Paragon mod for us and each combat took 3-4 hours. That is too long. 4e threw away virtually all the "exploration" aspects of the game. Who ever uses rituals? I should add that I play a lot of play-by-post games so interupts and immediate reactions stop play. Those are fatal flaws.

What I am hoping that DnD next does is make the game flow better. I don't want to prepare for 4 hours to play for 4 hours. I should be able to pick up a module and run it cold. Point of fact, when the playtest material came out, I was able to do just that.

Think about what aspects of 4e you like and then, when you playtest or run a playtest, see how you would accomplish that. For instance, my players love tactical combat with minis. I'm going to keep that going. Some skill challenges were good but I'll handle them differently in DnD Next.  If DnD Next is designed well, you should not skip a beat!

-------------------- D&D Player/DM since 1975 - Veteran of Chainmail, AD&D, 2e, v3.5, DnD4e and now Next.
This is an open post to all who are worried about losing 4e.

 4e threw away virtually all the "exploration" aspects of the game. Who ever uses rituals? I should add that I play a lot of play-by-post games so interupts and immediate reactions stop play. Those are fatal flaws.




Those aren't "fatal flaws", the game wasn't designed for PbP, nor is it played primarily through PbP.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
 

Actually there was also the Basic and Advanced D&D era where you had two different games.

I don't see why they couldn't re-brand 4E as "D&D: Big Damned Heroes!" or "D&D: Balance of Power" or something similar. Then they could leave 4E out of the "Next" equation entirely to deliver that perfect retro feel (though perhaps they would need to rebrand it D&DClassic or D&DRetro at that point).



The Basic/Advanced edition was from a time where D&D was almost the only brand in TTRPG. 
Nowadays competion is fierce, and the market has shrunk. Having two products which do pretty much the same, under a single brand in a niche market? I am skeptical that may be successful.  
Sure, there is a market for 3.x: Pathfinder got that already. That also shows that players have loyalty towards an edition/system more than they have to a brand. 
Rebranding 4E to me seems the more practical way not to see those customers go and avoid fracturing the brand.
 
However, 4e is broken.


When did this happen?

It's unplayable at Paragon and above.  My buddy just ran a Paragon mod for us and each combat took 3-4 hours. That is too long.


Wait wha-..how in the world are you going 3-4 hours? I'm playing in an Epic Level game with 4 other people and I've not had a single combat run for over an hour at most.

4e threw away virtually all the "exploration" aspects of the game.


Oh wait, are you talking about one of those new 4es that WotC seems to be making every other week? Given how many conflicting comments I keep seeing on this board about 4e, it's the only conclusion I cna reach.

Who ever uses rituals?


My level 21 Psion uses plenty of rituals, mostly Tesner's Floating Disc and Overland Flight for the moment.
@ EnglishLanguage - I played the paragon level SPEC mod at GenCon last week. Every DM. I mean at every table, had to cut out one of the encounters because they all ran long.  In talking to some of the WOTC people, they acknowledge all of what I said. These are some of the reasons why long-time D&D players have made Pathfinder the top selling RPG on the market - ahead of DnD.


@CorranHornIsAwesome - Yeah, well I do and so do many others. Just because you don't doesn't mean that it isn't.  You are right, though. It isn't played PBP much because it's unplayable that way. Most gamers who do PBP play 3.5 or Pathfinder.

These are some of the reasons that the game needs to be fixed.  I believe that it can be fixed with little negative impact to those of you who like 4e.
-------------------- D&D Player/DM since 1975 - Veteran of Chainmail, AD&D, 2e, v3.5, DnD4e and now Next.
@Neptune0923: without entering the merit of your comments, they are off topic in the discussion here. Please open your own thread if you want to debate about those subjects.
@ EnglishLanguage - I played the paragon level SPEC mod at GenCon last week. Every DM. I mean at every table, had to cut out one of the encounters because they all ran long.


And I'm trying to figure out what the hell people are doing to stretch encoutners like that.

Saturday for example

5 Level 21 Characters
4 Level+x minions
about 5 level+x standards

Took about 50 minutes. I've never had a Paragon level encounter run above 35 minutes. I'm completely baffled where people keep pulling 3-4 hours from.



@CorranHornIsAwesome - Yeah, well I do and so do many others. Just because you don't doesn't mean that it isn't.  You are right, though. It isn't played PBP much because it's unplayable that way. Most gamers who do PBP play 3.5 or Pathfinder.

These are some of the reasons that the game needs to be fixed.  I believe that it can be fixed with little negative impact to those of you who like 4e.



I never said that me not playing PbP 4e didn't make it hard-but it's doable, there are dozens or more 4e PbP games running now on various websites. Almost certainly more. Lots of other systems have ways you can interrupt someone. To take an example from my own background, in Star Wars SAGA people ready actions quite frequenltly which have a trigger. At the trigger, they interrupt whatever the triggerer is doing. I guess that makes SAGA broken.  Really, though, if you don't like 4e, go play 3.5 or Pathfinder already. As opposed to wasting our time on a 4e board.


EnglishLanguage, it's because you're better than him at 4e. Yup, I said it.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)