DPR King Candidates 3.0

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Hello, im back with a new build. THE Daring Fang

Daring Fang - Lvl12 Thiefl/Bard/Daring Blade/Human - By Banysan2


This time is a Thief, based on Ripost Strike.

Assumptions:
- My Owlbear is adjacent to me (CA + 2dam)
- My enemy starts adjacent to me (minor action for whetstone)
- Frost Vulnerability from the start


BASICS:

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Daring Fang, level 12
Human, Thief (Rogue), Daring Blade
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-will
Proficiency: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 9, WIS 13, CHA 22

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 17


Relevant POWERS:
Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue's Trick 1: Acrobat's trick
Rogue's Trick 1: Thug's Trick



FEATS:
Show

Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 6: Bardic Dilettante
Level 8: Mark of Finding
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 11: Icy Heart (retraining lvl 4)
Level 12: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 12: Urikite Staff Pratice (Retraining lvl 10)



ITEMS:
Show

Footpad's Friend Rapier +3 x1   (lvl13 item + 8000k of the initial gold)
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Short sword =)
====== End ======


 
HIT:
Show
 +24 vs AC  (+6 1/2lvl, +6 Cha,+3 enchant, +3 Prof, +2 LBE, +2 CA, +1 NB, +1 Thief Weapon Talent) 
Accuracy: 95%
Normal Hit: 90%
Critical Hit: 5%


Damage: 
Show
Sneak Damage = 3d8 + CHA (Footpad's Friend Weapon) = 3d8+6

First Attack: 1d8[W] + 6 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 2[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Weapon Finesse] = Sneak [3d8+6] = 4d8+37

Riposte Attack: 1d8[W] + 6 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 2[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Weapon Finesse] + 3[Urikite Staff Pratice]= Sneak [3d8+6] = 4d8+40

Opportunity Attack: 1d8[W] + 3 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 2[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Weapon Finesse] + 3[Urikite Staff Pratice] + 4 [Acrobat's Trick] = Sneak [3d8+6] = 4d8+41


DPR:
Show

First Attack: [0.9*55+0.05*79.5] = 53.475
Riposte Attack: [0.9*58+0.05*82.5] = 56.325                    
Riposte Attack: [0.9*59+0.05*83.5] = 57.275                    
Riposte < Opportunity
DPR= 53.475 + 56.325 = 109.8 [Riposte] 110.75 [OP]

KPR= DPR/(24+lvl*8) = 109.8/120 = 0.915 

For DPR purposes, if I use Rapid Shot, how many targets can I assume at max?
Hello, im back with a new build. THE Daring Fang

Daring Fang - Lvl12 Brutal Scoundrel/Bard/Daring Blade/Dragonborn - By Banysan2


This time is a Scoundrel Thief, based on Ripost Strike.

Assumptions:
- My Owlbear is adjacent to me (CA + 2dam)
- My enemy starts adjacent to me (minor action for whetstone)
- Im blooded.    
- Frost Vulnerability from the start


BASICS:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Daring Fang, level 12
Dragonborn, Rogue (Scoundrel), Daring Blade
Rogue Tactics Option: Brutal Scoundrel
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragonfear
Proficiency: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 9, WIS 13, CHA 22

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 17


Relevant POWERS:
Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike


FEATS:
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 6: Bardic Dilettante
Level 8: Brutal Teamwork
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 11: Icy Heart (retraining lvl 4)
Level 12: Cruel Cut Style (As Daring blade add CHA instead of WIS, cause this description is add to the power card)
Level 12: Nimble Blade (Retraining lvl 10)


ITEMS:
Footpad's Friend Rapier +3 x1   (lvl13 item + 8000k of the initial gold)
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Short sword =)
====== End ======

 
HIT: +24 vs AC  (+6 1/2lvl, +6 Cha,+3 enchant, +3 Prof, +2 LBE, +2 CA, +1 NB, +1 Dragonborn Fury) 
Accuracy: 95%
Normal Hit: 90%
Critical Hit: 5%

Damage: Sneak Damage = 3d8 + STR(Brutal Scoundrel) + CHA (Footpad's Friend Weapon) = 3d8+10

First Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 2[Whetstone] + 2[Glovesof Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 2[Brutal Teamwork] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard = Sneak [3d8+10] = 4d8+41

Ripost Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 2[Whetstone] + 2[Glovesof Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 2[Brutal Teamwork] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 6 ong[Cruel Cut Style] = Sneak [3d8+10] = 4d8+41+6ong ~ 4d8+47

DPR:
First Attack: [0.9*59+0.05*83.5] = 57.275
Rpost Attack: 0.95*[0.9*65+0.05*89.5] = 0.95*62.975 = 59.82625                   *0.95 - Ripost Attack occur's only if the First Attack Hit's.

DPR=117.10125 

KPR= DPR/(24+lvl*8) = 117.10125/120 = 0.9758 


Wow! It's been a bit since we've seen a Riposte Striker at Paragon. Good thought with Daring Blade! There are a few kinks to work out, though. The big one is that you need a way to set up a catch-22. DPR King works under the assumption that, when a monster's behavior would cause it to take damage, it is always going to take the path that causes it to take less. The standard procedure is to take the Vigilante Justice Style feat. There are still plenty of holes (ie, attacking non-adjacent allies, shifting and charging), but this is the traditionally accepted threshold of believability. However, you run into an awkward problem with this build. In this case, the least damaging option is for the enemy to move away and attack another ally. This will provoke an opp attack... which is not a martial power. That means you have to use Strength and, unfortunately, do substantially less damage. So you'd need to tighten up the catch-22 and find out a way to either use Charisma on opps or prevent it from moving away.

A few other tiny details: how is your Cha mod 7? Are you tossing in another bonus there? Also, Daring Blade doesn't convert the ongoing damage from Cruel Cut style; it specifically only applies to attack and damage rolls, and ongoing damage is neither.
I've updated the thread.
I've also added a ranking on cheese elements
0 is for non-cheesy tags like wintertouched + frost vuln. and other typical optimization techniques and other descriptive tags (noLFR, IRC)
1-2 is for things that are barely cheesy, if at all
3-4
5-6
7-8
9-10 is for the stinkiest of the stink.  TheoryOP and stuff that breaks the game goes here.

Please go to the Glossary and change the rankings if you so like.  The next time I update the thread the new ranking will get reflected in the colorings on the first page.

If you want the colorings to be reflected in the tags on the google doc page feel free to make some conditional formatting and duplicate it for all 6 columns in every level tab (1,6,12, 16, 24, 30).
I used 6 hidden columns on said pages to store the HTML that results in what color that tag gets rendered as.  If you feel a certian build deserves a big fat RED tag for its specific use of those tags feel free to unhide those columns, manualy enter in the HTML that would give it a red color and add a comment on the column saying that you did so and then rehide the columns.




Could we get some variety of tag for "Assuming that extra damage adds a damage roll"? That's come up fairly regularly recently.
The +7 is a error =(, will be fixed.
I'll change the Cruel Cut for the Vigilante Justice.    

Can you explain the catch-22 please?


See if with my new changes this worls well. Add Vigilante and Melee Training CHA.
 
Could we get some variety of tag for "Assuming that extra damage adds a damage roll"? That's come up fairly regularly recently.


I'm fine with adding a tag for that (if tags are just descriptors, then I'm really okay with tags for just about anything). But it's really not so much an "assumption." It's a pretty cut-and-dry argument... I'll write it up in full detail if you're interested, but this is one of the less ambiguous rules. 
The lvl16 version of THE Daring Fang

Daring Fang - Lvl16 Brutal Scoundrel/Bard/Daring Blade/Human - By Banysan2


This time is a Scoundrel Thief, based on Ripost Strike.

Assumptions:
- My Owlbear is adjacent to me (CA + 2dam)
- My enemy starts adjacent to me (minor action for whetstone)
- Frost Vulnerability from the start


BASICS:

Show


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Daring Fang, level 16
Human, Thief (Rogue), Daring Blade
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-will
Proficiency: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 12, DEX 18, INT 9, WIS 11, CHA 24

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 18


Relevant POWERS
Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue's Trick 1: Acrobat's trick
Rogue's Trick 1: Thug's trick



FEATS:
Show

Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 6: Bardic Dilettante
Level 8: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 11: Icy Heart [lvl4 retraining]
Level 12: Nimble Blade [lvl 10 retraining]
Level 12: Unikite Staff Pratice
Level 14: Mark of Finding
Level 16: Rash Sneak Attack


ITEMS
Show

Footpad's Friend Rapier +3 x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======
 


HIT:

Show
 
First Hit and Riposte: +27 vs AC  (+8 1/2lvl, +7 Cha,+3 enchant, +3 Prof, +2 LBE, +2 CA, +1 NB, +1 TWT) 
Accuracy: 90%
Normal Hit: 85%
Critical Hit: 5%


Damage: 
Show

Sneak Damage = 3d8+ CHA[7] (Footpad's Friend Weapon) +2 [Rash Sneak Attack] = 3d8+9

First Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard = Sneak [3d8+9] = 4d8+44

Riposte Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] +4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Unikite Staff Pratice] = Sneak [3d8+9] = 4d8+47

Opportunity Attack: 1d8[W] + 3 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] +4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Unikite Staff Pratice] + 4 [Acrobat's Trick] = Sneak [3d8+9] = 4d8+47


DPR: 
Show

First Attack: [0.85*62+0.05*86.5] = 57.025
Riposte Attack: [0.85*65+0.05*89.5] = 59.725                 
Opportunity Attack: [0.85*65+0.05*89.5] = 59.725 
Riposte > Opportunity
DPR= 57.025+59.725 = 116.75 [Riposte] or [OP] 


KPR = DPR/(24+lvl*8) = 116.425/152 = 0.768

 

The lvl16 version of THE Daring Fang

Daring Fang - Lvl16 Brutal Scoundrel/Bard/Daring Blade/Dragonborn - By Banysan2


This time is a Scoundrel Thief, based on Ripost Strike.

Assumptions:
- My Owlbear is adjacent to me (CA + 2dam)
- My enemy starts adjacent to me (minor action for whetstone)
- Im blooded.    
- Frost Vulnerability from the start
- Feint every turn as minor action
- Cruel Cutting with Cold Keyword (tell me if this is right)

BASICS:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Daring Fang, level 16
Human, Thief (Rogue), Daring Blade
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-will
Proficiency: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 9, WIS 16, CHA 24

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 18


Relevant POWERS
Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue's Trick 1: Acrobat's trick
Rogue's Trick 1: Thug's trick <--- span="">

FEATS
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 6: Bardic Dilettante
Level 8: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 11: Icy Heart [lvl4 retraining]
Level 12: Nimble Blade [lvl 10 retraining]
Level 12: Unikite Staff Pratice
Level 14: Cruel Cut Style
Level 16: Skilled Feint

ITEMS
Footpad's Friend Rapier +3 x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======


HIT: +27 vs AC  (+8 1/2lvl, +7 Cha,+3 enchant, +3 Prof, +2 LBE, +2 CA, +1 NB, +1 Dragonborn Fury) 
Accuracy: 90%
Normal Hit: 85%
Critical Hit: 5%

Damage: Sneak Damage = 3d8+ 1d8(Skilled Feint)  + CHA[7] (Footpad's Friend Weapon) = 4d8+7

First Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] + 4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard = Sneak [4d8+7] = 5d8+42

Riposte Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] +4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Unikite Staff Pratice] + 8 [Cruel Cut Style] = Sneak [4d8+7] = 5d8+53

Opportunity Attack: 1d8[W] + 7 [CHA] + 3 Enchant + 3[Icy Heart] + 4[Whetstone] + 2[Gloves of Ice] + 2[Owlbear] + 5 [Lasting Frost] +4 [Weapon Finesse] + 2 LBW + 3 Shard + 3 [Unikite Staff Pratice] + 8 [Cruel Cut Style] = Sneak [4d8+7] = 5d8+53

DPR: 
First Attack: [0.85*64.5+0.05*92.5] = 59.45
Riposte Attack: [0.85*75.5+0.05*103.5] = 69.35                 
Opportunity Attack: [0.85*75.5+0.05*103.5] = 69.35 
Riposte == Opportunity 
DPR= 59.45+69.35 = 128.8 

KPR = DPR/(24+lvl*8) = 128.8/152 = 0.84736

 



So here's the worst news first: feinting can only be done once per encounter. Then, in descending order or badness: Melee Training only adds half your CHA mod (3), your WIS mod for the purposes of Cruel Cut is 3 (not 8),  neither attack in Riposte Strike is an MBA for the purposes of Finesse, and you're no longer a Dragonborn, and thus don't get +1 for being bloodied, and, finally, since the enemy takes the ongoing from Cruel Cut Style during its turn, it will save before it takes the damage (so multiply the Cruel Cut Damage by .45)
So your Riposte should be doing different damage from your opp.
Sorry to be the perpetual rain on your parade here, Bany.
EDIT: No, you don't get to add the cold keyword to ongoing.
Could we get some variety of tag for "Assuming that extra damage adds a damage roll"? That's come up fairly regularly recently.


I'm fine with adding a tag for that (if tags are just descriptors, then I'm really okay with tags for just about anything). But it's really not so much an "assumption." It's a pretty cut-and-dry argument... I'll write it up in full detail if you're interested, but this is one of the less ambiguous rules. 

I think you mean it's one of the more ambiguous rules. You can easily argue for either way, the words don't actually support either argument more than the other.
Think my question got a little buried - if I'm using a power that can hit in a burst 1, how many targets should I assume for damage calcs?
I think you mean it's one of the more ambiguous rules. You can easily argue for either way, the words don't actually support either argument more than the other.

Both from RC 222:
1) A damage roll is "a roll of dice to determine damage." Okay, that's easy enough - if I'm rolling damage dice, I am making a damage roll.

2) "Whenever a power or other effect requires a damage roll..." This makes it totally clear that there's no distinction (like some people try to argue) where a power has to "inherently" have a damage roll, because a damage roll isn't tied to powers at all. Any roll of damage dice is a damage roll. So Iron of Spite gives a damage roll, and Malec-Keth Janissary gives a damage roll. And since MKJ is a damage roll, and extra damage is always considered part of the power, this means an MKJ damage roll is part of the power itself if that distinction matters (just like any other effect added to a power is considered part of the power).

It's hard to try to re-interpret the "Damage Rolls" section to exclude something like MKJ, because the rules are deliberately written to cover non-power effects too, so you can't make any distinction with "this power does not inherently have a damage roll"...it doesn't matter, because the MKJ feature inherently does, and that's the part that gets all the bonuses.

If an errata were being issued, it would need to be to the "extra damage" section, something that says that extra damage specifically does not benefit from any damage roll modifiers. That rule is plainly not in existence right now though, so as it stands, I don't see where there's any ambiguity about RAW.

So here's the worst news first: feinting can only be done once per encounter. Then, in descending order or badness: Melee Training only adds half your CHA mod (3), your WIS mod for the purposes of Cruel Cut is 3 (not 8),  neither attack in Riposte Strike is an MBA for the purposes of Finesse, and you're no longer a Dragonborn, and thus don't get +1 for being bloodied, and, finally, since the enemy takes the ongoing from Cruel Cut Style during its turn, it will save before it takes the damage (so multiply the Cruel Cut Damage by .45)
So your Riposte should be doing different damage from your opp.
Sorry to be the perpetual rain on your parade here, Bany.
EDIT: No, you don't get to add the cold keyword to ongoing.




Your tip's are already fixed. Almost of them are right.

Only your interpretation of Weapon Finesse is wrong. The DEX instead STR is for basic attacks, but the additional damage are limited only by weapon groups (light balde, sling, ...)
You can check on character build if you wish.
WEAPON FINESSE
Show

When you make a melee basic attack, you can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack roll and the damage roll. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with light blades, hand crossbows, shortbows, and slings.


The Cruel Cut was removed cause the 0.45*(good point), but the ongoing have cold keyword cause it takes all the Power Keyword. The Cruel Cut is a ADD description to the power... but... i don't have it anymore.

I'm not a Dragonborn, but the bonus HIT is correct. +1 Thief Weapon Talent, i just forgot to change the source of the bonus. Thanks for the tip, i forgot to change the Race in the very sheet start to. =)

The Sheet is already Edited, please check for some eventual mistake.
Daring Fang Lvl 16

Tyvm
Here's the link to my updated Headmaster of Hell: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Had to get rid of White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte because supposedly we're assuming the target won't do anything to get itself hurt in DPR King. Also figured out the math behind how you guys are doing these calculations and have an actual DPR and KPR on my build now. Still not sure if I got the numbers right (particularly the target's Reflex, are we going on 42 at level 30?), so please do review and I'll edit if something is wrong.
Stuff



Eh, well. Thanks for clearing that up so concisely.
@Velkon/Ninja: Regarding damage rolls- The RAW seems pretty clear. The problem that it runs into is that many people find it counter-intuitive. So even if it /is/ clearly RAW, it probably should have a tag if only because it might rub your DM the wrong way.

Banysan/Cuddelz: Regarding Riposte/WLMR- riposte builds have to counter a bad just shifting away and attacking someone else. The simplest solution is Mark of Finding (grants a free shift if an adjacent enemy who grants CA shifts). This way, no matter their choice, they provoke either a riposte or an OA. Note, though, if your CA (or other bonuses) rely on an adjacent ally (like a fey beast), then their optimal choice is to first shift away from you and your ally so that when they get attacked you no longer benefit from the ally's bonus. Check out any of my builds for a good starting point.
Double post :s
@Banyan: You have no means of trading the riposte interrupt away from Str. Weapon Finesse and Training both specify they only apply to basic attacks when swapping the attack stat. Neither Riposte Strike or the riposte interrupt count as basic attacks, so you are stuck with attacking with first Dex and then Str, respectively.

A means around this is to be a Half-Elf notRogue who takes Riposte Strike as their Dilettante power. The Adept Dilletante feat then let's you swap out for that power for either Con, Wis, or Cha. Plus, it counts as being a MC rogue, so you can still take a rogue PP (I have been meaning to do all of just that for an avenger/daggermaster @12. It'd probably beat out my current 12 rogue king, but I don't think it would do better than my 16 when leveled).
q: If I'm using a power that lets me attack in a burst one, or specifically Rapid Shot that lets me attack all targets adjacent to a square, how many targets should I be using to determine my DPR? Or do I take the average so if I assume 3 targets, do I just divide the damage by 3?
@double mojo: thanks for the tip on sticking on target, I'll try to figure out what feats to swap out for it.
"@Banyan: You have no means of trading the riposte interrupt away from Str. Weapon Finesse and Training both specify they only apply to basic attacks when swapping the attack stat. Neither Riposte Strike or the riposte interrupt count as basic attacks, so you are stuck with attacking with first Dex and then Str, respectively."
actually, his paragon path's level 11 feature let's him use charisma
Show

Daring Improvisation (11th level): When you make a martial melee weapon attack, you can use Charisma for the attack roll and damage roll in place of the ability score required by the attack.


@bohrdumb: here are some links to other dpr king builds that use area attacks, you can find more links on page 1
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
@Bohr: if you check the google doc sheet, there is a tab for area to single. It shows you how many targets you can expect for a burst/blast N.

Ninja'd!

Also, derp. I missed that, only saw the Melee Training and Finesse. :s Thanks, Cuddlez.
I gotta admit, even after reading that I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to be doing.

Is it telling me that if I can attack in a 3x3, I should figure for 2.178 enemies?
If it is party friendly, yes. If it can hit allies, use the other column (since you /are/ trying to avoid killing your mates, right?). Basically, use the columns as a multiplier. Do your regular damage calcs for one target, then multiply by whichever is your appropriate aoe target value.
@ Ninja: I agree that if a build goes with the assumption that making damage a roll through extra damage dice should be a tag.  I am not going to stand one way or the other.  We work with RAW, and where those have a large divergence of opinions (weapliment for example), especially for many DMs that cry for balance, and thus we should have a tag.

I propose the tag be EDR, for Extra Damage Roll.  There will be a slew of builds that take advantage of it.  I can think of a shadar-kai(reaper's touch) wizard using a vanguard weapliment to make his auto-hit MM charges powerful.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
q: If I'm using a power that lets me attack in a burst one, or specifically Rapid Shot that lets me attack all targets adjacent to a square, how many targets should I be using to determine my DPR? Or do I take the average so if I assume 3 targets, do I just divide the damage by 3?


Feel free to leave the damage in per target form and I'll add a note in the special column that this affects a 3x3.  While you won't get as high a KPR value, you will get people noticing that you're hitting a 3x3, which may be of interest to people.  Being able to remove 40% of a monster's HP in a 3x3 is pretty awesome.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Any space for team damage? For instance the current lvl 6 DPR king is a bit under 50 damage but I'm working on a duo that deals over 100 combined. I'm sure there are other powerful pairings.
All my attempts at encouraging a depository for duo builds have failed.
Feel free to perfom some necro: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I woulnd't mind. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Double post :s
@Banyan: You have no means of trading the riposte interrupt away from Str. Weapon Finesse and Training both specify they only apply to basic attacks when swapping the attack stat. Neither Riposte Strike or the riposte interrupt count as basic attacks, so you are stuck with attacking with first Dex and then Str, respectively.

A means around this is to be a Half-Elf notRogue who takes Riposte Strike as their Dilettante power. The Adept Dilletante feat then let's you swap out for that power for either Con, Wis, or Cha. Plus, it counts as being a MC rogue, so you can still take a rogue PP (I have been meaning to do all of just that for an avenger/daggermaster @12. It'd probably beat out my current 12 rogue king, but I don't think it would do better than my 16 when leveled).

@onecrazymojo. 

1 - I don't need Mark of Finding cause i use Thug's Trick, shift will provoke OA.

2 - I use CHA instead of STR or DEX in Riposte Strike cause the Daring Blade PP. 

Daring Improvisation (11th level): When you make a martial melee weapon attack, you can use Charisma for the attack roll and damage roll in place of the ability score required by the attack.

Ty 
Hello!    A friend of mine is creating a Monk and ask me how to convert DPR and KPR from Flurry.  Can you guys explain how this works here???

Her monk hits one main target, Flurry the main and two additional targets.

And why the secundary target don't shift away to skip the adjacent target damage???
+13.5 damage (Jade Sea Snake: Free action attack)
 
+13 to hit
    +11.5 (Bite)
    +2 (Owlbear)


Hello!!! @Illeist i'm curious, why the Jade Sea attack is free action? Any power or theme ? I wont find the reason.

Show

 Bite (standard, at-will)  Poison


+8 vs AC; 1d10+6 poison damage.

 
Are builds using the usual text of Brutal Barrage still permitted or has it been erratad for the sake of this thread?
Are builds using the usual text of Brutal Barrage still permitted or has it been erratad for the sake of this thread?


no errata is in place in any sort.  We have placed rankings on tags for builds, and brutal barrage is a tag.  The main reason it has such a high cheesy ranking is because it's on a defender class and wasn't meant to do the kind of things we make it do.

Our top candidate for level 30 uses BB as written in the books, and most of us hope there is an errata for it soon, although we don't see much they can do with it. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Are builds using the usual text of Brutal Barrage still permitted or has it been erratad for the sake of this thread?


no errata is in place in any sort.  We have placed rankings on tags for builds, and brutal barrage is a tag.  The main reason it has such a high cheesy ranking is because it's on a defender class and wasn't meant to do the kind of things we make it do.

Our top candidate for level 30 uses BB as written in the books, and most of us hope there is an errata for it soon, although we don't see much they can do with it. 



Excellent. I just put together a level 16 in a few minutes that pops DPR up to over a hundred, so I'll post a variant of that soon.

I really should work on making a practical optimization build for that though... With minimal investment you could have a high mobility, high defenses defender with the DPR of an optimized striker. That sounds like a hall of heroes candidate. But someone's probably already done it *laughs*

Edit - Yes. Yes they have. That's what I get for getting into the 4e optimization game just four weeks ago.  
That's what I get for getting into the 4e optimization game just four weeks ago.  


I understand the feeling.

Can someone tell me how much info I need to submit to express my DPR/KPR?
That's what I get for getting into the 4e optimization game just four weeks ago.  


I understand the feeling.

Can someone tell me how much info I need to submit to express my DPR/KPR?


Either make a spreadsheet in the google docs and do your calculations there, or go the traditional old-school way of making a post outlining the breakdown of your attack bonus, your damage bonus, how you're getting your attacks, then roll it all together in a DPR calculation.

(chance to hit - chance to crit)*(damage on a hit) + (chance to crit) * (damage on a crit).
Add that up for each attack you do and viola you have your DPR
DPR / (8*level+24) = KPR.

That's all really. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?


Edit - Yes. Yes they have. That's what I get for getting into the 4e optimization game just four weeks ago.  


First of all, welcome to the DPR kings thread and to optimization.  I've seen many a time that new commers have submitted new and fresh ideas, leaving a shining legacy for years to come.  Here's to you kid.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
+13.5 damage (Jade Sea Snake: Free action attack)
 
+13 to hit
    +11.5 (Bite)
    +2 (Owlbear)



Hello!!! @Illeist i'm curious, why the Jade Sea attack is free action? Any power or theme ? I wont find the reason.

Show

 Bite (standard, at-will)  Poison


+8 vs AC; 1d10+6 poison damage.

 

The Jade Sea Snake is a Figurine, a particular type of wondrous item. As per Adventurer's Vault, page 180, Figurines with the Mount keyword have a particular exception to the mounted combat rules in that they gain a normal complement of actions while ridden and can be commanded to take them as a free action.

First of all, welcome to the DPR kings thread and to optimization.  I've seen many a time that new commers have submitted new and fresh ideas, leaving a shining legacy for years to come.  Here's to you kid.



*laughs* Thanks. It's sure interesting to be cracking a brand new system after years of writing about Magic. And very educational, as I'm primarily (95% of the time) a DM. It's nice to be looking at things from a player's perspective.
+13.5 damage (Jade Sea Snake: Free action attack)
 
+13 to hit
    +11.5 (Bite)
    +2 (Owlbear)



Hello!!! @Illeist i'm curious, why the Jade Sea attack is free action? Any power or theme ? I wont find the reason.

Show

 Bite (standard, at-will)  Poison


+8 vs AC; 1d10+6 poison damage.

 


The Jade Sea Snake is a Figurine, a particular type of wondrous item. As per Adventurer's Vault, page 180, Figurines with the Mount keyword have a particular exception to the mounted combat rules in that they gain a normal complement of actions while ridden and can be commanded to take them as a free action.
   Nice! Thank you @Illiest.

   Could you explain how I calculate the KPR of a monk that  a target mainline and two additional targets with the Flurry? How it is converted to single here? I am helping a friend to post his lvl16 Monk. 
@Banysan: ye, I was already corrected on your Daring Blade feature. Totally missed it and only saw Melee Training and Finesse. Bad news, though. Thug's Trick doesn't really work for a Riposte Build because it requires flanking (not CA), which means the bad's optimal choice is to ignore you and attack your ally that is flanking since they are not adjacent to you, and hence, will not allow you to whack them via Vigilante Justice Style.
@Banysan: ye, I was already corrected on your Daring Blade feature. Totally missed it and only saw Melee Training and Finesse. Bad news, though. Thug's Trick doesn't really work for a Riposte Build because it requires flanking (not CA), which means the bad's optimal choice is to ignore you and attack your ally that is flanking since they are not adjacent to you, and hence, will not allow you to whack them via Vigilante Justice Style.



Truth, but there's no problem...

Did not realize I got the Vigilante twice. Just changed one by Mark of Finding on lvl 12 build.

In the build lvl 16 I had to switch a feat that added 1d6 attack of opportunity in the Mark ofFinding. But being able to use Acrobat's turned out to be a small improvement. 0.002 KPR.

Thank You.
Our top candidate for level 30 uses BB as written in the books, and most of us hope there is an errata for it soon, although we don't see much they can do with it. 

Hey, I don't see any BB on that build...

So I was gonna go ahead and flesh out my Swordmaster build with full 10-round KPR, but...it really just feel so painfully cheap. It'll be around 3x the current leaders in the level 16, 24, and 30 categories, but it would never work that way at all in a practical setting. Should I post for theory's sake, or are you considering rules that would nerf it?

(I think there should be rules that nerf it)
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