First time posting a build so let me know when I mess up.Anyways, this is a Level 6 controller build that throws out insane damage without even rolling to hit thanks to the oversight of Storm Pillar.
2) Your resistances from the armor, PP and Dragonsoul. Armor gives you 15 thunder, PP gives you 20 lightning, and Dragonsoul gives 15 fire. You take the lowest one because your attack does all 3. You have 15 resist to those 3 elements, but you have 15 pierce fire from dragonsoul... how does that play out? Maybe since you pierce 15 fire, one of your resistances becomes 0, and thus you get 0 resistance for the entire attack.Do you pierce any of the 30 resist-all from the belt?
True...But i still feel movement needs to be added somewhere in DPR calculations. Expecting to start next to an enemy, and have it not move, is kinda... expectant...
Yea, I just read the errata and found my DB combo now does not work as well. I was using a sorc/wiz hybrid, and cast cloud of daggers that at low level I would just walk through to recharge my breath and take my 1 point of damage, and at paragon take the lightning transport and the planestrider boots to tp in and out to get 3 DBs on my turn. It had a ~75DPR... but now, cloud of daggers only lets to take the damage once per turn, so that makes it a 1/my turn attack I would need to find some off-turn effect that lets me either move or use the DB and kill to recharge. Opportunity breath comes to mind, but we can't really figure DPS on "if enemy provokes me to take OA on it". And sweet, I'm currently playing a storm sorc, and plan on taking the PP to get the zone they missed. (Lightning Fury)
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Optimized net user. Moderate.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.
Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Your quote is out of context.When an attack score a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don't make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. [etc.]It is clearly stated that the damage comes from the attack, and the sentence you quoted can easily be a sort of ellipsis. ("Instead, the target takes damage [from the attack] as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage.")So, cite something in evidence of 'For starters, the rules generally treat "the target takes damage" due to your attack identically to "you deal damage to the target."'
When an attack score a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don't make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. [etc.]
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
So, the DPR Kings cheese tags came up in ThatWasTotallyNinja's 'legit DPR' thread, and at Borg's invitation, I decide to take a peek in here and throw in my .Anyway, Borg mentioned that he picked the cheese tags based on what he thought might be considered cheesy by a normal DM and group, which is how the Charge, CA, Fey Beast Tamer, Frost, Radiant et al tags came to be. I, personally, think this is the wrong approach to them. Not only does this perpetuate the 'Frost/Radiant/Whatever is OP!' myth among optimization newbies, but it's also opposite to what Cheese is. Frost is with almost 100% certainty the most effective weapon for damage optimization for a normal character (particularly in the post-HotEC world, where Element Focus and Pale Tooth get you a better Weapon Focus AND an extra attack). This doesn't make it cheesy, it just makes it the optimal choice. No matter how balanced the system, there are always optimal choices, but those choices need not be cheesy. A Rending weapon used to create an infinite loop is cheesy. A Frost weapon isn't. I feel like this thread might be the best place in the whole board to have a discussion that should have been had a long time ago. That discussion is, 'where do we draw the line between optimized and cheesy'? And where do we draw the line between oft-masturbatory theorycrafting and practical assumptions?For example, for the first question, these are tags I'd question:-Is Frost cheesy? Battlecrazed is very competitive with it, for instance. For nova focused characters, multiple Tyrant's weaponry reign supreme with their insane damage boost.-Is Radiant cheesy? Most of the Radiant Mafia pieces come together only by the work of multiple characters. Moreover, this kind of party optimization has a certain opportunity cost...and now speaking from a design standpoint and not a player standpoint, this is exactly the sort of thing 4e is about. Teamwork. A team of KAMmers is likely to pump out way more damage than a Radiant Mafia, so while the numbers look pretty impressive on paper, they come at the expense of much coordination, the use of many more pieces than usual (which implies that you should compare builds that use an equivalent amount of pieces to Radiant Mafia), and they only work on single targets if stacked to maximum effectiveness (since they use Encounter resources).-Is Fey Beast Tamer cheesy? Sohei and Guardian are ten times as effective for damage, if not more. Why does it deserve a tag and not them? (Just to clear this up, I think Sohei and Guardian are not cheesy in the slightest. They push the envelope on what is acceptable power, but I think they fall within a reasonable margin, if only just. Themes like Yakuza can be equally or even more potent in some circumstances, Sohei and Guardian are just widely usable.)There's probably more, but these come to mind first. Now, for the second question:-Is the Charge tag based on too much theorycraft? I'm not sure - it does require party intervention to make work. Then again, there are very, very few parties that don't have reliable repositioning effects of all sorts.-Is the CA tag based on too much theorycraft? In this case I have no doubts that the answer is 'yes, these tags need to be more lax'. 99% of the time, your party WILL grant you CA one way or another. To assume otherwise is kind of crazy, because even new parties will work for CA if an optimizer is on deck to help bring things together. If you assume you could take a super optimized, glass jawed, updated Stormwarden build out for a spin (totally random example here. Use whatever build you prefer if it doesn't suit you), then assuming your allies will work with you so you'll get CA all day erryday isn't far-fetched.So yeah. That's pretty much all I wanted to say. These tags need a significant dose of of practical optimization sense in spite of dealing with theory op for the most part. I'll be watching the thread closely, so feel free to tear into my points and I'll see if I can put up a decent reply.
Eh? I played one in heroic, and it's no where near as bad as you think. In heroic, it's a Nova play, not a DPR play. But it still works. AC is respectable due to UA+AoF, despite a poor dex. Avenger powers are fine, Str attacks are fine. I think you're highly overstating the heroic pain.(Feat strapped? Yeah, no doubt. Ow.)
Well...defenses are juuuuuuuuuuuust barely in the passable range in Heroic. As level ups accumulate though you pretty much have to buy into some sort of heavy armor or you get smoked, even if it's just chainmail.
Well...defenses are juuuuuuuuuuuust barely in the passable range in Heroic. As level ups accumulate though you pretty much have to buy into some sort of heavy armor or you get smoked, even if it's just chainmail.
Actually, assuming modules or something else of "standard" difficulty, by the time your AC starts to resemble the AC of an unattended object, your real DPR has gotten so silly it stops mattering so much. Yes, you drop every encounter, but only after you've smoked 3 standards. And by Epic, well, more monsters attack non-AC defenses. (And you went Eternal Seeker anyway, for even more sillyness.)IME, it's about "normal power" in heroic. It's "silly glass canon" in Paragon and Epic. (And still, even in high paragon and low epic playtests, I'll routinely not have the lowest AC at the table. You can start crying now.)Your point was "it's cheesy because it can't exist". And that's false, it can. And, as you point out, even at it's silliest extent, it's less DPR than a decent brutal-barage battlemind. So ... I stand by my assertion that H-E Dilletant just isn't that cheesy.Edit: standard-striker AC is, roughly, Scale, or Hide+Secondary-stat. Avenger with UA is 2 higher than that. So you can take a -2 penalty to your dex modifier (or a 4 penalty to the stat. Or: ~12-14 Dex) and still have a perfectly normal striker AC after one feat. By 8th level, you're now down 1 more AC, so you either spend another feat for IAoF, or you start getting used to getting hit a fair amount. But that's still just one more AC down.Now, by 14th level, you're down 2 AC. And by 21st you're down at least 3 (actually 4, once you realize you were supposed to take an AC feat here. One you took around 4th or 8th). At that's about the point where I went "screw AC", and retrained UA into something that let me kill things faster.)
Where do I find the rules for how many creatures you can target with bursts? - e.g. the whirling barbarian power, whirling skirmish (hit a single target, then shift [DexBonus] squares and do damage to all creatures adjacent).On a similar note, can an epic sohei assume he can get to position where he has two creatures adjacent?
It's hard to say without seeing the full details.But it seems like it would basicly be...Sand in the eyesBAB vs DexHit: Dex mod damage.Effect: The target is blind (Dex saves ends)Dex can range from 10 - 18, meaning BAB should start at say... 5
I have a question about the Inferno build by ThatWasTotallyNinja. I see how it all happens, and that they probably forgot this zone and the lightning one as 1/turn. My question is if the damage from the zones stack because they are all comming from the same source, namely conflagration breath. If you had acid mire, and stinking cloud and cloud of daggers, and the enemy started in the 1 square that all 3 of those zones are happening in, I could see the new rule about zone stacking dealing damage for each one of the zones. I know there is some rule about effects from the same game element not stacking, would that apply here?
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Human.
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Make a homebrew character, so you can access the different types of humans. The original one gave you an extra at-will from your class, being rogue.
So when you are calculating your KPR is the following accurate:KPXR:X Standard ActionsX Move Actions (no need to actually use these to move)X Minor Actions0 Action PointsLegal Actions:All At-Will powersAll Encounter powersNO Daily powersAnd assuming that:Say your KP2R uses 2 standard At-Will attacks and 4 minor action encounter attacks to get something like the following:KP2R = 2.0KP5R = 1.0KP10R = 0.75Is your submission KPR = 1.25?
@Borg:1) Is it reasonable to add my Inferno and 1000 Cuts builds to the list? (By the way: I kinda hate the names, but having a name makes it much easier to refer to.)2) I noticed the other day that some builds, like the Genasi Blaster Wizard, seem to be using AoE damage but don't have AoE tags...is that deliberate, or just because you weren't using the AoE tag at the time, or am I missing something?3) I'm gonna submit a vote for IRS instead of IRC, because I somehow read "compliant" as "complaint" like 30 times (as in, "I have a complaint about your total disregard for rarity rules"). Part of that was me being temporarily stupid, but I have to think that at least a couple other people will do the same.4) What are the wealth guidelines we should be using? There's the guidelines for creating a level X character, but there's also the parcel system using a n-person party. I'm never really sure which numbers I'm supposed to use...and I think including the table as a link in the main post would be a good idea.
Encounter nova candidate:This is the level 30 version of a Swordmaster I put on the forum a few weeks ago. Rending Tempest adds a lot. The level 16 version can be found here.Level 30 BuildRevenant (Half-Orc), Ranger|Fighter/Swordmaster/Legendary SovereignArena Weapon: ZulaatSword of Kings: Twofold FlinchBackground: Cormyr (General)Theme: WilderABILITY SCORESSTR 18 -> 26CON 12 -> 14DEX 13 -> 20 INT 10 -> 12WIS 13 -> 16CHA 10 -> 14SKILLSInsightFEATS1: Hybrid Talent (Arena Training via swapping Fighter Weapon Talent)2: Disciple of Divine Wrath4: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)6: Death's Quickening8: Mighty Crusader Expertise10: Avenging Resolution11: Enhanced Psychic Surge12: Arena Battle Rhythm14: Reckless Attacker16: Headsman's Chop18: Superior Will20: Past Life Flashbacks21: Rending Tempest22: Critical Targeting24: Ghostly Vitality26: Vengeful Declaration28: Enmity Shared30: Ferocious CriticalPOWERSAt-Will: Twin StrikeEncounter: Opportunist's Rend, Twofold Flinch (Sword of Kings), Death RendUtility: Insightful RiposteITEMSHarmony Blade Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (2), Gauntlets of Destruction, Quickhit Braces (epic), Life Charm +5, Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic), Assault Boots, Ioun Stone of Might, Symbol of Victory +5 (2), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, Stone of Earth, Stone of SpiritNova BreakdownUse Past Life Flashbacks when rolling initiative. I assume the enemy starts adjacent (maybe because they moved up to hit me...). Also, start the battle at nonpositive HP.First round:free action: Oath of EnmityAP: Psychic Surge6 minors (rev. cheese + one ring of free time): Twofold FlinchStandard: Death RendSecond round:Standard: Twin Strike6 minors: Twofold FlinchEach crit (there will be many) is used on Opportunist's Rend, which recharges on every crit due to Swordmaster. Also, each round is almost guaranteed to trigger Reckless Attacker, adding another MBA (sadly, can't be another OR).Twofold Flinch can be used constantly because the build hits on anything but a 1, and Sword of Kings makes it never expend until I miss. If I use this nova every encounter, that's 120 uses of TF per day...but with only a 1/400 chance of missing. Also, I have a Stone of Earth just in case.Have an AP every encounter due to 2 Symbols of Victory.AttacksATTACK BONUSall: 8 str, 15 level, 3 feat, 1 veteran's armor, 2 CAPsychic Surge: 5 enh, 2 past life flashbacks, 3 insightful riposte = 39 vs. reflexpre-crit Twofold Flinch: 6 enh, 2 prof, 2 past life flashbacks = 39 vs. reflexeverything else: 6 enh, 2 prof, 4 ferocious critical = 41For Psychic Surge, only miss on a 1. Use Dice of Auspicious Fortune and Stone of Spirit to guarantee that it always hits. Everything else only misses on a double-1.Because of this, I'll just assume that every single attack is a hit, because this simplifies some of the calculations by a lot.CRITchance to crit = 1-.75^2 = .4375Since each crit generates 2 additional attacks, that means for each initial attack, I am expected to actually make 1/(1-2*.4375) = 8 attacks. Therefore, instead of making 14 attacks per turn, I actually expect to make 120 (the MBA from Reckless Attacker contributes 8 of those). Psychic Surge is not included in this because it doesn't add anywhere; I will completely ignore it in my calculations.Again, I assume every attack hits (at 120 attacks, you are expected to have 119.7 hits).DamageI create damage on Twofold Flinch using the trick outlined in this build. It's not particularly necessary, it just makes the calculations much easier.1[W] = 20/3 (2d4 + gauntlets of destruction + avenging resolution)DAMAGE BONUS8 str, 6 enh, 3 feat, 5 item, 5 headsman's chop, 4 ferocious critical, 2 critical targetingquickhit braces: 3d6 = 3*(21/5) = 6.3 per hit on average=39.3This is not 100% correct (not all attacks get to add str mod, HC, FC, or QB). However, it's true for the vast majority of attacks, and I'm going to ignore all base damage (like the 1[W] from Opportunist's Rend), so in the end I am underestimating by a lot.From this source, we get 39.3*120*2 = 9432 damage to the nova.RENDING TEMPESTThis is the real damage. Rending Tempest adds 1[W] per hit in a turn (except the MBA). It stacks with itself. Therefore, each round it contributes (118*119/2) [W] damage. Multiplied over 2 rounds = 93613 damage to nova.However, some of the attacks are crits. Specifically, 43.75% of them are. So if we maximize 43.75% of the [W]'s, that adds another 8191 damage to the nova.I made a lot of tiny assumptions here and there...but I also ignored a lot of base damage from the attacks, including all non-RT crit damage, so I'm pretty sure I ended up underestimating damage, possibly by as much as 1500. But 1500 damage on this particular nova is practically a rounding error.Damage over 2 rounds = 111236 (6 digits! )Now, here's a problem. I am submitting this to the nova category. However, if I were to submit it as a DPR build, even taking a DPR of zero in rounds 3-10, I would still end up with a Mean KPR of 112.36, making this the new Level 30 king (...by a lot). I think we all agree that this is not good.My idea: how about if after dealing X amount of damage, you have to somehow engage a new target. Every time you engage a new target, they are assumed to start N squares away (this includes on round 1). Overkill within one attack is counted toward DPR (so if you do 2*X damage in a single attack, that can be counted), but you cannot attack a dead enemy (so if you expect to deal X damage on each hit of a Twin Strike, your second attack must be at a different target).This way it's not all that much harder to calculate (you already need to calculate the expected damage of each attack; just figure out when the total exceeds X), but it adds a lot more realism. Have to move every once in a while, have to retarget every once in a while. Would hurt most of my builds (which is good, because most of my builds are broken as hell).I'm thinking X = 2 or 4 kills worth of damage (to model an elite or solo). N = 4 or 5 squares. Old builds that weren't designed to conform to this get italicized or something to show that they were made under old rules (is a good idea anyway; a number of builds require a lot of setup, which is no longer totally valid).