How about this for AoE and Monks: If you hit multiple targets you can take fractional KPR for your primary target, but all secondary targets you can only count them if you've killed them, all excess damage to secondary targets go to the next set of secondary targetsIf you were using encounter powers you are already doing a round by round breakdownIf you are doing simple at-will calculations you have to seperate it into primary KPR (fractional) and secondary KPNR = n attacks * floor(KPNR)
Quite simply, we're going to take arcane attack powers from the Dark Sun theme, then use Mage's Weapons to swap them out for more Rain of Blows. We'll couple that with a thunder ki focus and Promise of Storm for more nova burst.
1d8+35. (+6Str+3enh+4BFS+2GoI+2FW+2itm+1shrd+2feat+2SF+4PP+2ET+5LF) +2 if target bloodied +4 Marked Scourge 1/round +2d8 Promise of Storm -2 till first hit, Echoes of Thunder -5 if no Lasting Frost -6 if Rain of Blows
Turn 2 Free: Apply Assassin's Shroud Minor: Promise of Storm Standard: Rain of Blows
Turn 3 Free: Apply Assassin's Shroud Minor: Exchange Fettering Glare for Rain of Blows via Mage's Spiked Shield Standard: Rain of Blows
Turn 4 Standard: Shield Feint
Turn 5 Minor: Exchange L13 Fearsome Command for Rain of Blows via Mage's Rapier Standard: Rain of Blows
All of my Pack Outcast builds swapped it out and traded feats for Cunning Stalker. So they still self-generate CA with the prime-shot style assumption. Perhaps that should be a cheese key? Target alone/isolated? I also apologize for not updating anything myself. Having some internet annoyances, and I refuse to try and fiddle with typing that all up on a mobile :s
I dare someone to make a Revenant version of this build. Spamming Hellish rebuke without the fear of dying and having that many minor actions withwhich to hurt oneself seems too tasty to pass up.
New DPR lvl 1 Candidate :Spike, Lvl 1 Human Rogue|WarlockClass Feature : Sorcerer-King PactBackground : Gritty Sergeant (Rapier Proficiency, +1 Init)Theme : Unseelie Agent (Rapier)Feats : Mindbite Scorn, Surprising Charge18 (+4) STR, 17 (+3) DEXAttack bonus (Assuming CH, CA) = +11Show +4 STR, +1 enhancement, +3 proficiency, +1 Charge, +2 CA Damage = 28, crit= 48.5Show (2*(1+8)/2)+(2*(1+6)/2)+(2*(1+6)/2)+4 STR +1 enhancementDPR (Assuming CH, CA) = 24.825Show.8(28)+.05(48.5)And assuming I'm doing the KPR math correctly, it winds up as #1 for lvl 1 with .775 KPR meanYes, it relies almost entirely on Ch and Ca cheese to get this high, but I figured that was what this was all about assuming frost cheese and all of the whetstones at higher level is acceptable, hoped this is too. :D
It is neither typed specifically as a rogue or warlock power, and seeing as both classes have such- it would work RAW. It is absolutely abusive, though.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Optimized net user. Moderate.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.
Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I like the color code and meme reference. I also had an interesting thought, although I don't know how much it really matters (especially when looking at kpr10). A lot of the top shelf-builds, with their expected kill rate of .7-.8 a round are actually doing better than that, in a way. In many cases their hit rate is very close to .8, meaning when they do hit, it is a dead standard. Of course, taking an average expected number of kills will get the same result in the end. I jst find it interesting that many of the builds are essentially binary (I hit=dead bad, I miss=no damage).
This candidate is incorrect due to using a pre-errata symbol of divine light. ThatWasTotallyNinja please recalculate and I'll move you from incorrect to L30 4.07 Mean KPR Dancing Powerful Revenant (Half-Elf) Avenger , ThatWasTotallyNinja (RM,Rev.,1/2Elf,Twin)Also please recalculate the non-uber cheese variant and I'll add that as another candidate. It would help the build survive an errata.As per ThatWasTotallyNinja's Mul build Please use a sheet like my borg sheet. Also make sure you're not using daily powers(other than item powers that you plan on spamming). If you're calculating a daily nova then that's fine. Once you're done with your calculations please add whatever candidates you wish. I could see 4 candidates based on your variations, but you can add rows for however many you feel you would like to submit for viewing.
This candidate is incorrect due to using a pre-errata symbol of divine light. ThatWasTotallyNinja please recalculate and I'll move you from incorrect to L30 4.07 Mean KPR Dancing Powerful Revenant (Half-Elf) Avenger , ThatWasTotallyNinja (RM,Rev.,1/2Elf,Twin)Also please recalculate the non-uber cheese variant and I'll add that as another candidate. It would help the build survive an errata.As per ThatWasTotallyNinja's Mul build Please use a sheet like my borg sheet. Also make sure you're not using daily powers(other than item powers that you plan on spamming). If you're calculating a daily nova then that's fine. Once you're done with your calculations please add whatever candidates you wish. I could see 4 candidates based on your variations, but you can add rows for however many you feel you would like to submit for viewing.I'm not sure what you mean about the SoDL? It's the only item bonus I had, I wasn't stacking it with anything.I don't care too much to recalculate the Mul build for now (just because the first 4 rounds will all have to be calculated specially, and DPR will take a bit of a hit)...I'll probably get around to it some other time.But I'm curious, are we outright banning the use of daily powers? Or are we banning the use of "powers you can't use every encounter"? Because if you look at it, I explained how I use Ancient Forebears' Rage 5 encounters/day (and it'd be pretty easy to do 7 instead with another RotRS, if that's what you wanted).
“The damage rolls of radiant powers you usethrough this implement gain an item bonus equal tothe implement’s enhancement bonus against creaturesthat have radiant vulnerability.”As long as the build uses it in accordance with that ruling then I'm fine. I need to re-read over your build to see if it was an implement based power. I just saw melee weapons and thought it was a weapon power at the core.
as per SoDL, were you attacking with the symbol or with another weapon/implement. Just making sure the build uses the most recent ruling on it.
On to the questions.1) DPR value1a) Do you want DPR or Normalized DPR?1b)Do you want"turns per kill"(I'm an N round striker) 4 baseline, 2 optimized, 1 broken, anything less than 1 is still broken"kills per turn" (I kill N monsters each round) .25 baseline, .5 optimzed, 1+ broken
3) Categorization of cheese usage3a) Should we preserve a legend?3b) Should I use symbols(&%$@) or abberviations("Frst" for "uses frost cheese")?3c) Should I enforce stating what cheese you use?3d) What are some cheese elements you want? LFR(LFR legal), Frst(Frost cheese), Rev.(Revenants), CA(requires Combat advantage), Ch(needs to charge a foe every round), RM(Radiant Mafia), IRC(Item Rarity Compliant)3e) I'm probably going to keep the seperation of level 6 chargers vs. non-chargers. Do you feel other seperations are necessary?
4) Do you still want a Nova section? Are there special rules you want changed from the last DPR king thread (1 AP, 1 prep round, daily section and encounter section)?
5) Do you want a non-item specific builds section, or is the tag of IRC(Item Rarity Compliant) sufficent?
5a) Should we have Builds are either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IRS(Item rarity sucks) ORBuilds can be either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IPS(Item power spamming(Ammunition, Whetstones, Dancing weapon...)) or neither?
6) What guides/links do you want here? Just post a link.
7) What format do you want the "updates " section in?
8) Daily item restrictions: Do we allow daily items, and how many encounters should a build be able to sustain it to be legal?
9) Type 1 or Type 2?Type 1) Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damageNova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2
Type 2)Each candidate will have 2 numbers Nova(2 round average) and sustained(end of the day DPR). the nova value will default to sustained if no nova value is provided
@Borg: oh really? As someone interested in getting into a future of statistal analysis, would you be willing to pm me how to go about calculating that? If/when I can get access back that isn't my mobile, I might do that math for a bunch of builds just for the practice.
Greg: This conversation leads into the talk of balance. Is it important that classes are equally balanced? And how does that look - would that focus on damage output and number crunching?Monte: (Joking) The assassin, the wizard, and the warlock should all just be better than everything else.Bruce: If all classes are putting out the same damage, there's no difference. We definitely want the classes to be balanced, though having things exactly mathematically balanced isn't always the goal. Different classes or different play styles will shine at different moments, though of course we want everyone to be able to contribute in the common situations like combat. Greg: When you're talking about non-numerical class stuff, how do you figure out balance?Bruce: If the fighter is 100% damage for example, then maybe this other class is 80% damage/combat and 20% exploration, or some other mix of game elements. Each class has its time in the spotlight, and not all classes are built expressly for combat.Rob: You may look at a class and see that it's damage output isn't as high as another class, for example maybe the bard doesn't do as much as raw damage as the fighter. That other class will have other options, like charm person or something that fits into that class's niche and will give that class different options, but still equally useful in combat, exploration, or roleplaying. If the Fighter's damage is the baseline, and Bard is 70%, the Bard has extra stuff (spells, etc) to give variety. We find damage equivalence between offensive and other types of spells. Charm Person roughly 10.5 points of damage.
I'm gonna hold off a couple days before "officially" putting this on the list, but here's a new build (with a trick I haven't seen used before).Level 30 Build Revenant (Mul), Fighter|Ranger, Mul Battle Slave, Legendary SovereignHybrid Talent: Arena TrainingArena Training (Hybrid): Arena Weapon (Rapier)Arena Training (Hybrid): Arena Weapon (Zulaat)Theme: SamuraiSword of Kings: Twofold FlinchFINAL ABILITY SCORESStr 26, Con 12, Dex 24, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16.STARTING ABILITY SCORESStr 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.AC: 47 Fort: 39 Reflex: 38 Will: 33FEATSLevel 1: Hybrid TalentLevel 2: Death's QuickeningLevel 4: Past SoulLevel 6: Light Blade ExpertiseLevel 8: Cunning StalkerLevel 10: Two-Weapon FightingLevel 11: Arena Battle RhythmLevel 12: Lasting FrostLevel 14: Two-Weapon OpeningLevel 16: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)Level 18: Reserve ManeuverLevel 21: Triumphant AttackLevel 21: Rending TempestLevel 22: Ghostly VitalityLevel 24: Disciple of Divine WrathLevel 26: Prime HunterLevel 28: Heavy Blade MasteryLevel 30: Mobile WarriorPOWERSAt-will: Twin StrikeReserve Maneuver: Twofold Flinch (replaces Challenge of Blades from PP)Encounter: Untamed Outburst, Nonchalant Collapse, Weaponmaster's LureUtility: Battle Fury Stance, Incredible Toughness (via Past Soul)ITEMSBelt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2 (2), Life Charm +5, Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier) (35), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Vorpal Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (epic tier) (2), Quickhit Braces (epic tier), Ioun Stone of Might, Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, The Fading One - Lighter than Wind (heroic tier)The TrickTwofold Flinch is an awesome power. It makes 2 attack rolls, and does so as a minor (!) action. Sadly, it does not deal any damage, which really limits the abusability of this otherwise-great thing.On the other hand...Arena Battle Rhythm lets you deal damage when you make a melee attack and don't deal damage. Pretty neat, but static damage isn't really all that big a deal...Then Rending Tempest makes it so that, if you hit, you deal extra [W]'s of damage. Now we not only are dealing damage, but there is a damage roll with it as well. Use MBS to make the power reliable, then add Sword of Kings, and now we can spam Twofold Flinch every round - with a damage roll.There will probably be objections to this on a variety of grounds, but I will pre-empt one of them:Objection: Arena Battle Rhythm just says the target "takes damage," not necessarily that you're dealing it as part of the hit. If you're not dealing it, then you can't add Rending Tempest.Rebuttal: For starters, the rules generally treat "the target takes damage" due to your attack identically to "you deal damage to the target." But if you want to get more specific, just compare to the wording of Critical Hits on RC 217. It says that, on a crit, you do not deal damage as normal. "Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage." But then a moment later, it describes how extra damage (such as from a magic weapon's crit dice) will still add in, even though the wording is "the target takes damage." This is identical to what I'm doing with Arena Battle Rhythm + Rending Tempest.Just add one more thing to the list of reasons Arena Training is broken.TacticsStart the battle at non-positive HP, holding a Frozen WhetstoneFirst round:free action: Iaijutsu (shift next to isolated target, get a +2 to attack...assumes target is reachable via shift 4)RoFT minor: use Frozen WhetstoneRoFT minor: activate Battle Fury Stanceminor 1: use OoE on targetAP: Untamed Outburstminor 2: Nonchalant Collapsestandard: Weaponmaster's Lureminor 3: Twofold Flinchminor 4: Twofold Flinchminor 5: Twofold FlinchEvery subsequent round:standard: Twin Strikeall minors: Twofold FlinchShift 1 from Mobile Warrior after every single attack (gives +1 to the next attack due to The Fading One - Lighter Than Wind).I assume an isolated target for Cunning Sneak and Prime Hunter (though CS could easily be switched with Wintertouched). This isn't too crazy, because on turn 1 I can activate Sudden Strength to give a push on all attacks (and thus push the opponent away from the field). This is aided by Weaponmaster's Lure, which can reposition nicely if necessary.Survivability is better than it looks at first, because 1) in theory, there's only 1 bad guy nearby, 2) that bad guy takes a -4 to attack me due to Twofold Flinch, and 3) I'm a revenant with the survivability tricks that come with that.CalculationsInstead of actually posting calculations, I will link to my sheet on the DPR King Candidates spreadsheet. I explained the tactics used above.Simplifications used:1) I assumed Triumphant Attack kicked in after the second attack on Weaponmaster's Lure...it's just a lot easier to actually pinpoint a time for that one, so I picked something a little pessimistic (chance of critting by that point = 65.13%).2) I assumed that Twofold Flinch always had a damage roll from Rending Tempest (which isn't true if every attack before it missed). Very small effect on DPR.3) I assumed that Lasting Frost is in effect forever after the first attack in the encounter.Mean KPR: 4.912Mean KPR post-milestone: 6.831The "trick" part of it is the interesting aspect of the build, and I welcome any criticism about that (or any other piece of the build).Also, since this is the first build to use the spreadsheet for damage calcs, any feedback on that is appreciated too (I don't think I'd want to put more than 1 build on a given sheet, by the way).EDIT: Forgot to list cheese.Rev., Frst, noLFR, Twin, Solo, IRC, TypedDo any of those encompass each other? IRC is what's causing noLFR for me, and Typed and Frst are pretty closely related.