Legends and Lore - Charting the Course for D&D: Your Voice, Your Game

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For those who haven't seen it, the D&D Next page is up and ready for your feedback. You'll also find the info on the team working on what's coming next there as well as a poll on what you want to see in the first playtest.


i am very happy to see that mr. schwalb will be playing a role in the creation of 5e.
style he also says he already played 5e, so its already in a playable form



A friend and I developed an RPG in the late 80s and early 90s.  We play tested it with our group from almost day one, and the last version looked nothing at all like the first version.  You are being hysterical.  Take a few deep breaths and calm down.

Kalex the Omen 
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Concerning "Default" Rules
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The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

For those who haven't seen it, the D&D Next page is up and ready for your feedback. You'll also find the info on the team working on what's coming next there as well as a poll on what you want to see in the first playtest.


i am very happy to see that mr. schwalb will be playing a role in the creation of 5e.


I would have been.  He seemed like a stand-up decent designer to me.  And then he wrote the Book Of Vile DMing, and it changed my mind.  Both the play style it espouses, and the dreadful mechanics.

I remain cautiously interested, probably slightly more cautiously now that the core team has been announced.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
For those who haven't seen it, the D&D Next page is up and ready for your feedback. You'll also find the info on the team working on what's coming next there as well as a poll on what you want to see in the first playtest.


Where's thepoll  option for 'I don't really care about something that meaningless, please tell me something about the game's core mechanics'?

Seriously.  The success or failure of the game is in its core mechanics (and I use that tense intentionally; I have no doubt that its core mechanics are already solidly in place), not something so completely meaningless as which mobs the groups will face.

I really appreciate the communication.  If that is one thing that will actually come of this, then that's one thing that I am all in favour of.

Calm slightly :P There will be more information to share when it comes to specifics, but today is all about the announcement.
Trevor Kidd Community Manager
No, you calm down, maaaan :P

Thanks for confirming that.  I hope that we'll know more soon.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Trevor Kidd Community Manager

awesome! so everyone but the actual players knew about it

And now we do.  Seriously, man, I defend you often enough to tell you to quit being so negative.

You're seriously whining that they did a simultaneous announcement across a wide variety of platforms including the new york times?

It's a pretty damn wide announcement, man.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

awesome! so everyone but the actual players knew about it




...was going to post something snarky, but then pictured all the "don't feed the trolls" responses.
Indeed.  Some criticisms, I can get on board with.  But this announcement having been known about in advance by journalists is not one of them.  It is entirely necessary for this sort of concerted marketing push, and entirely understandable.  I expected no less.

The attempt to be all things to all men, on the other hand, is giving me deep concerns.  It seems to be a big theme of the articles, and it just sounds like pie in the sky at the moment.  Having seen the insane rampantness of edition wars, I just don't think it's possible to reconcile the differences between all (4, 5, 6, 7, however many) earlier editions (and sub-editions, and not-editions etc etc) and this one.

I have, as ever, high hopes and low expectations.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
So, several developers might be reading this thread, and some of them may be sleepy. Beginning the process of implementation of post-hypnotic suggestion:

Do not repeat the mistake of GSL. If you want your players to shape this game, let them do it forever. Give them again the freedom the OGL has given them to add and change the rules as much as they need. Give them tools to do that, and don't make them feel punished for homebrewing (like current Character Builder apparently has no place for homebrews). Make it feel rewarding to be implementing new stuff for this game, forever.

Hey, it's not bad as far as post-hypnotic suggestions go.
Check out my D&D-based play-by-post game, based on exploration and roleplaying. Agora

awesome! so everyone but the actual players knew about it




Really everyone's been pointing to it since the content wind-down.
i would like someone from wizards to tell us as soon as possible what will happen to 4th. specifically will the tools still be up, will it be supported in the mags or on the website at all after 5th comes out



We plan to continue offering people access to tools such as the D&D Character Builder and D&D Monster Builder to support 4th Edition.



This is good. Really good. Continued support, even with electronic things, means customers who don't feel abandoned. 



You do realize that what will actually happen is that support will stop. And the official line will be, we had planned to continue to support, but our data shows it's not cost effective to continue to do so. There will be no more updates to any of those tools.




My concern is that with the L&L articles have not really had much player feedback as would really be required to really get the voice of the customer.

The order of events has been:

1. Post L&L article w/ Poll.
2. Posters respond to poll and discuss on forum.
3. Collect data on poll (and hopefully from discussion)
4. Post next L&L article with no real discussion on the previous one.

What I need to see to know that our voices are really being heard is when new articles come out - call out a poster that comes across like "Scottevil912 writes - 'we need to have our voices heard' and follow that with some additional discussion by the writer.

Part of the problem here is that Mike and Monte couldn't talk explicitly about all the things going on behind the curtain - so I th ink that's alleviated at this point. Also, we're planning at this point to have more two-way communication going forward. I don't have all the details yet - maybe L&L is the place for that increased communication, or maybe it's elsewhere, but it is something we'll be doing. All I can do is promise that we'll do our best to show you that your feedback matters once the ball gets rolling.



Thank you.

I'm really not trying to be negative, I really am trying to be supportive because I do love D&D and I love 4e despite it's flaws and I want to make sure that if a new edition is going to be released that I do everything I can to make it the D&D that I, and others, would enjoy playing.

It's just a bit discouraging when a L&L article is posted and then you see the people on the forum just tear into each other (and the author of the article) for an entire week, just for the next L&L article to be released and no real acknowledgement of what was said by anyone the week before other than some poll results. 

Going to keep my fingers crossed that this is going to be a successful playtest, and I will keep providing my feedback both on the changes to 5e, as well as feedback on the playtest process (using my experience as a project SME and process modeler/analyst on various IT & Business projects)

Well, yeah, the issue with the way the L&L process went seemed to me more like there was an article discussing some aspect of the game. Then there was a thread, in which all sorts of commentary was generated, pros, cons, different variations on the basic concept, etc. Now, sometimes you got the impression that Mike (not so sure about Monte, but we'll assume true there too) had noted that and there'd be some hint of that feeding into his thought process. The thing is, the last part of it was kind of missing. Nobody really gets to hear what Mike thinks of OUR ideas. I think the community can contribute a lot more when there's a tighter and more detailed back and forth loop going on there. If someone says "well, this skill system idea is OK, but X,Y, Z" then the discussion doesn't progress unless there's some commentary coming back on X, Y, and Z. The discussions just sort of launch off into the vacuum of outer space and wander somewhat aimlessly, or else get stuck in a tight loop that sucks itself into a black hole endlessly debating some one minor point.

At least going forward the value of these discussions would be much higher with a tighter feedback. I know it sucks up time and energy and often the developers aren't any more sure of which way they want to go than anyone else, but even just saying "yeah, looks like you've all identified 3 approaches, we'll think about these in a couple months when we get back to that aspect of the design, but here are a couple follow-on things to think about"

Anyway, good luck on the whole project. Lets all just remember to have fun here, eh? The die is cast. If people want to talk about their grumbles and hurt feelings and whatever lets just not. There WILL be a 5e, so there's no point in even talking about if there should be or not or if we're burned out on edition rolls or whatever else. Just doesn't matter at this point.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
I do have to say that I am a bit irritated that the hundreds of dollars I have fairly recently spent on books, maps, modules, etc. are soon to be rendered obsolete, particularly since this is not the first time I have suffered through this (Original PHB, DMG, MM, DD, then 2nd edition, then 3rd , then 3.5, now 4th).



Yeah, I spent a good bit money on 4E books (I think I own at least 15 books) and a ddi subscription assuming it would be around for longer than 4 or 5 years.  I doubt I will be spending much if any on 5E, especially if it doesn't go mostly digital.  At this point I am not even sure I will be updating my ddi subscription that is about to run out.

I feel a bit like a rube at this point for thinking that there would be no way they would announce a 5E this early.  I don't like feeling like a rube.
I'm cautiously optimistic.  It will be difficult to reconcile fundamental differences in preference ("I like balanced classes!" vs "Casters should be much more powerful than warriors at high levels!"), especially if players within the same group have different preferences.  My former D&D group is now 2 different groups; a few of us (plus one new person) branched off to play 4e pretty much exclusively, while the rest of the group tried it but then moved onto Pathfinder. 

That said, I think such a long, open playtest will be a great way to iron out as many wrinkles as possible.  I appreciate the constant errata that 4e has recieved, but it's certainly annoying to know that a good chunk of the content from my physical books is obsolete.  Getting almost everything RIGHT before the books are published will be ideal. 

This is going to be a huge undertaking, and I suspect the most difficult part will be sorting out the important points in all of the bickering that will inevitably ensue.  I don't envy whoever has that job!
1. The OGL was a travesty. I hope they don't bring it back, and I don't think they will.

2. The biggest problem I see with modularity is that it isn't just about rules, it's about aesthetics. Different editions of D&D had different aesthetics, and of you look at 1E and 2E the aesthetics set them apart more than anything. As little faith as I have in a modular system being able to appeal to conflicting tastes, it's the aesthetic aspect I expect them to royally fail at.
...whatever
Just decouple mechanics from fluff.  Flavor can always be painted on later.
And now we do.  Seriously, man, I defend you often enough to tell you to quit being so negative.

You're seriously whining that they did a simultaneous announcement across a wide variety of platforms including the new york times?

It's a pretty damn wide announcement, man.



im a little po'd that they are killing 4th edition. ill work on the attitude but what can i say i am not really happy with the way they are killing 4th
My group only converted to 4e a bit more then a year ago and we like it. We'll probably end up playing 5e in 2016-2017. 
And now we do.  Seriously, man, I defend you often enough to tell you to quit being so negative.

You're seriously whining that they did a simultaneous announcement across a wide variety of platforms including the new york times?

It's a pretty damn wide announcement, man.



im a little po'd that they are killing 4th edition. ill work on the attitude but what can i say i am not really happy with the way they are killing 4th



I wouldn't go as far as saying that. WotC representatives are not going to come barging into your house and stealing all your books. Remember, WotC only kills sacred cows, not game editions.
1. The OGL was a travesty. I hope they don't bring it back, and I don't think they will. 2. The biggest problem I see with modularity is that it isn't just about rules, it's about aesthetics. Different editions of D&D had different aesthetics, and of you look at 1E and 2E the aesthetics set them apart more than anything. As little faith as I have in a modular system being able to appeal to conflicting tastes, it's the aesthetic aspect I expect them to royally fail at.



Now this post is one of the big reasons trying to listen to everybody might be a big problem. Because a few posts ago I was basically begging them to give the new edition an OGL equivalent, and now we have a poster who just goes "TRAVESTY" and that's it (and I thought I'm opinionated).

Ironically, the solution to many "unsolvable differences" would be an OGL equivalent - the freedom for everyone to create his/her own game. You don't like the grappling rules which pretty much need their own handbook? Here, you have this variant book that gives you the simplification the game had in 4E! The GSL, as it stands now, is saying "nope, you have to play the game as we say it, or shut up".
Check out my D&D-based play-by-post game, based on exploration and roleplaying. Agora
Just decouple mechanics from fluff.  Flavor can always be painted on later.


If only.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
1. The OGL was a travesty. I hope they don't bring it back, and I don't think they will.



Pretty imprecise language when you seem to be trying to level a specific charge.  What Ryan Dancey realized back then, and some people still can't grasp is that an OGL SRD will exist whether you release one or not.  It will exist in the form of pirated scanned PDFs of the print books.  You might as well have the open license and SRD out there officially.  This is especially true when you are actually releasing beta versions of the rules for play-test.  I'd say a new OGL is almost a certainty.  The way D&D is going to make money going forward is through value in a robust online digital offering.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

And now we do.  Seriously, man, I defend you often enough to tell you to quit being so negative.

You're seriously whining that they did a simultaneous announcement across a wide variety of platforms including the new york times?

It's a pretty damn wide announcement, man.



im a little po'd that they are killing 4th edition. ill work on the attitude but what can i say i am not really happy with the way they are killing 4th



I wouldn't go as far as saying that. WotC representatives are not going to come barging into your house and stealing all your books. Remember, WotC only kills sacred cows, not game editions.



yeah youre talkig to someone who still plays 1e. it sucks there wont be future products and the mags will be all 5e. so yeah it sucks they are killing 4th
I've made a post in the VT Beta forums indicating my strong interest in fully utilizing this community and the VT in getting some damn fine testing work done.

We, collectively, have something significant to add to this process.  And the VT is the best way for us all to do it.


edit:  8am isn't that early...



sad to say i wont be aiding in that process. i am not interested in purchasing or playing 5e



but you have no qualms about thread crapping about something you'll neither buy or play ever.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

I'm on the delivery truck today, posting on my phone. I could write 1000 words on why I think the OGL is a travesty, but I'm too busy to really even be posting this.

As for aesthetics, the only way you make them modular is to make them completely generic at the core, and generic sucks.
...whatever
i would like someone from wizards to tell us as soon as possible what will happen to 4th. specifically will the tools still be up, will it be supported in the mags or on the website at all after 5th comes out


if you care about your current customers you will answer this asap

That is a good question that clearly needs an answer.

Beyond that, I'm not enthused. You guys have spent FAR too much time thrashing on rules systems over the last 8 years and far too little doing good content development for what you have. Look at your competition. It isn't twiddling with new rules systems that will bring success. Good writers, good stories, that's what works. If you think 4e's issue has to do with the rules system I think you've badly missed the boat.



A thousand times this. Good rules alone do not a good game make. Get some decent adventure writers. Have adventures with a story, not just a bunch of mini skirmishes. I play pathfinder modules with 4e rules.. you can do old school type adventures in the new system, you just need to write them!
And now we do.  Seriously, man, I defend you often enough to tell you to quit being so negative.

You're seriously whining that they did a simultaneous announcement across a wide variety of platforms including the new york times?

It's a pretty damn wide announcement, man.



im a little po'd that they are killing 4th edition. ill work on the attitude but what can i say i am not really happy with the way they are killing 4th



I wouldn't go as far as saying that. WotC representatives are not going to come barging into your house and stealing all your books. Remember, WotC only kills sacred cows, not game editions.



yeah youre talkig to someone who still plays 1e. it sucks there wont be future products and the mags will be all 5e. so yeah it sucks they are killing 4th



I know what you mean, I play AD&D on Sundays as well as 4e once a week. Can't say I read the magazine articles or actually most of the books of this edition (I  fully read PHB, Player's Strategy Guide, DMG, Ebberon's Player Handbook, Eberron Campaign Setting, The Planes Above, The Planes Below), although my DM is a collector and we have nearly every book. As for previous edition support, well, that's to be seen.

EDIT: Now that D&D has a digital presence, support would be easier. 
4e was the greatest success for me as a DM - I know others who feel the same way, and plenty who feel opposite. 

No matter what 5e turns out to be, 4e will ALWAYS be there for me - sure I might lose online tools and nothing official will be published anymore.  But Pen and Paper games are not MMORPGs - I am not forced to play with the newest "patch" if I don't want to.  I don't lose everything I invested into the game because a server is taken down like I do with an MMORPG.

I still play games like Fallout 3 and Baldur's gate 2, years after their release and years after the company that made them moved onto bigger and better projects.  Why?  Because there is an awesome community of players out there who make mods for these games years after they have become "obsolete". 

We as players can always make the determination that, no, we will not move forward and instead continue to play the game that we have enjoyed - be it 4e, 3.5, 1st, or whatever.

It's probably a bad thing to rely too heavily on the company anyways, we really should look to each other (and ourselves) to help keep these games alive. 

So don't doom and gloom that the edition is "dead", that you need to reinvest completely in a new edition - you don't have to, if you don't want to. 
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
I'll definitely give the playtest a go, but given the direction of the L&L  columns WoTC probably isn't getting a penny from me once 5e starts.
I'll definitely give the playtest a go, but given the direction of the L&L  columns WoTC probably isn't getting a penny from me once 5e starts.



NODs the preview those provide are very like if you like 4e ... dont apply for 5e cause it will suck to high heaven in your eyes.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

OTOH it is entirely possbile they will instantly get 10x the readers for the mags when they switch over to 5e. I used to love picking up a dragon magazine but have not done so in years since I knew nothing would be relevant to me. 20 years later and i still remember with fondness some of the cartoons like the dragons munching on some knights commenting they have a hard shell but are good eating on the inside.

I have very high hopes for 5E now. I always regarded the brand with fond nostlagia and was fairly upset we went through a messy divorce.

My primary desire for the new edition is a magic system far closer to magic the card game or ars magic then what we had before. Before we had very generalist magic users and that causes problems all over since they can do anything. I want very specific magic users.
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I'll definitely give the playtest a go, but given the direction of the L&L  columns WoTC probably isn't getting a penny from me once 5e starts.



NODs the preview those provide are very like if you like 4e ... dont apply for 5e cause it will suck to high heaven in your eyes.



I may seem very negative and gronardy some times, but I do usually want to give something a go before I dislike it.  I have been pleasantly surprised going into something expecting to hate it, but coming out loving it (heroes of the feywild).
Just decouple mechanics from fluff.  Flavor can always be painted on later.



Thats "largely" a feature of 4e.

How about decouple capabilities in combat and out of combat

That might be they almost did but missed on follow through.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I'll definitely give the playtest a go, but given the direction of the L&L  columns WoTC probably isn't getting a penny from me once 5e starts.



NODs the preview those provide are very like if you like 4e ... dont apply for 5e cause it will suck to high heaven in your eyes.



I may seem very negative and gronardy some times, but I do usually want to give something a go before I dislike it.  I have been pleasantly surprised going into something expecting to hate it, but coming out loving it (heroes of the feywild).



Heros of the Feywild is positively great.... wasnt expecting to see anything since essentials came out.

And since 4e totally changed my attitude about D&D and so many of its game features I will say never say never on what might be in 5e. The optimism is riding low never the less.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I see it as a new game system to try out and see if I like it.  If I don't I'll stick with 4th, if I do well someone on Ebay can buy my old 4th ed books.  Truth be told I don't care if new stuff isn't coming out, since there will always be people making stuff.  That is why a OGL isn't necessery you can find stuff for 1st ed that people made recently on the internet.
I'm looking forward to playtesting this new edition...  Although, I am a little put off by how short 4e's lifespan was...
I'm looking forward to playtesting this new edition...  Although, I am a little put off by how short 4e's lifespan was...



IF 4e lasts until 2014, it will have had at least a 5-6 year run.  3.5 had a 5 year run 2003-08, with 3.0 it totaled to 8 years.

4e hassnt had a short run in comparison to 3.5 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Yeah, it is just about time.

I am a little bummed because 4E still feels incomplete to me and I doubt it will get there before the end.

On the plus side, I was excited about going to DDXP. Now I am VERY excited about going to DDXP.