Hide Armor Expertise Nerfed...

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So I just realized that Hide Armor Expertise is Nerfed...

Which doesn't really make any sense. It's not like CON barbarians were OP to begin with, given their lack of reflex, iniative, and only marginal health increase compared to Dex Barbarians, which is mostly useless seeing as how every level you would gain 6 hit points and end up balancing it out anyways...


And seeing as how you needed a feat just to get marginal AC levels, maybe equal to a rouge or ranger, despite you supposedly being a tough striker who takes pay cuts to damage anyways for defense so you can protect your team mates and handle yourself on your own better...

This just seems completely useless to me as it doesn't really take away any OP charachters and makes all Strength Con charachters, such as Goliaths, Minotaurs, Dwarves, and Warforged who SHOULD be iconic charachters for barbarians (IMO, dragons as well, but oh no, they are innately charismatic apparently; who knew?) completely inferior due to their low ability to take any damage what so ever, as if it wasn't already a considerable cut to take a minus 1[W] damage, a loss of basically a free scaling toughness feat (5 Temporary hit points = toughness, basically) and +2 to charges by NOT being a half-orc to begin with.


So great, now Barbarians are locked into just a few playing styles and essentially races, one obviously better than the others, and it's completely useless to do anything but go Half-orc unless you don't care about DPR or survivability as a striker.

Great job nerfing an already nerfed playing style; but I guess they do that kind of thing, go back and nerf a feat becuase some new class they barely mention suddenly decides to have to only do melee basic attacks *cough*.


Personally if a player wanted to spend the feat and take the cuts to be Str/con I'd let them.

Cuase seriously, looking a str/con charachter sheet it already looks like crap to begin with compared to a half-orc, oh well.
This sounds like something that should be in Char-Op, honestly. I do think though that they did have a problem with the original feat, although I also think they don't really agree with the fix as it is now.

But from what I know, the old Hide Armor Expertise isn't "marginal AC", it means "AC and HP on par with a Defender", which is a bit of overkill for a Barbarian, especially one that's already using the most powerful build the Barbarian has (Rageblood Vigor)
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This sounds like something that should be in Char-Op, honestly. I do think though that they did have a problem with the original feat, although I also think they don't really agree with the fix as it is now.

But from what I know, the old Hide Armor Expertise isn't "marginal AC", it means "AC and HP on par with a Defender", which is a bit of overkill for a Barbarian, especially one that's already using the most powerful build the Barbarian has (Rageblood Vigor)



Hide armor is +3.

Con would probs be 16 as your strength is probs 20.

+1 For Barbarian Agility that's 17 AC.

That's equal to a rouge or ranger; 18 if you go 18 Con and Str.


Good reflex of a rouge is about 17 and about 16 for a ranger.

A standard Defender will probs have around 19 AC and their reflex varies; 11 for a barbarian, 12 if you go human (but less con and therefore AC unless you drop strength).


So...

No, they really wouldn't have Tank like armor unless they took seriously cuts to damage ,and if that was the case, then they'd be a tank who didn't have marks and would do relativley low damage so it really wouldn't be OP.

It's equal to a Rogue or Ranger if you go 16 compared to their 20. It's better then them if you go 18/18 or if they don't have a 20. In addition to this, you have more HP as well.

That's pretty good. But really, you should take this to CharOp. They can explain powerlevels much better then I can. I'm not much of an optimiser.
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It's equal to a Rogue or Ranger if you go 16 compared to their 20. It's better then them if you go 18/18 or if they don't have a 20. In addition to this, you have more HP as well.

That's pretty good. But really, you should take this to CharOp. They can explain powerlevels much better then I can. I'm not much of an optimiser.



But a Dex Barbarian at 18-18 would get 18 AC, 15 Reflex, 16 Fort, 10 will, and then also get +4 iniative. ._.

So they're the ones who are OP; oh, and with the 5 temp hitpoints, as you  will basically go half-orc, you get around the same health and +1[W] damage as a free action, meaning that on a hit you can just randomly say oh yeah, more damage.


And Con Barbarians would have less iniative and Reflex and only equal AC if they took a feat, and it would probs have to start at pretty low levels which would be pretty annoying compared to all the other potential builds who wouldn't have to worry about that. ._.
But Dex Barbarians would be Whirlers, not Rageblood. And Rageblood has by far the best support in powers and class features.
Epic Dungeon Master

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But Dex Barbarians would be Whirlers, not Rageblood. And Rageblood has by far the best support in powers and class features.



Get 12 con and you really don't see much of a cut.

You can even pick up an at-will AOE that can kill minions.
Hide Armor Expertise (at the time it was given errata) had two problems.

1: Barbarian Defenses scale.  Right out of the box, you get +1 AC/Ref on top of your Hide Armor.  An 18 Str/Con Barbarian could claim an 18 AC with HAE.  This isn't a ridiculous amount of AC by current standards, but it probably raised a few eyebrows when the Barbarian was the new hotness.  

But at Paragon, and again at Epic, the AC/Ref increases again, so at high levels of play, the Barbarian with HAE probably had defenses that rivaled most Defenders.  Even the Berserker, a Barbarian sub-class designed to consider tanking as an option, doesn't have this good of a deal at high level. 

The Barbarian with HAE was getting a really good deal, and only had to pay a single Feat for it, while being a very high DPR Striker.  Contrast with other Strikers who have high defenses- they tend to inflict less damage.

2: Other classes could use HAE.  It may cost you an MC Feat, but if you wanted Con to AC for your class, the option was there, even if you weren't intended to have it.  Ironically, the class probably hardest hit by the HAE change wasn't the Barbarian- if you're Str/Con, you have the option of heavy armor.  You may not like spending 2 Feats to get Scale, or 3 to get Plate, but the option is there.

The Shaman was the class that really needed HAE, as Con-Shamans get shafted when it comes to AC.  Strength doesn't do much for them, as you might expect.

This was likely the thought process when HAE was given errata.  But does it still need this errata?

I'm inclined to say no.  I've seen enough Hybrid Cleric Builds poaching Battle Cleric's Lore for superior AC and Reflex to think that the current design team would have left HAE alone.  One could easily play a Hybrid Cleric/Barbarian, get 19 AC without even spending Hybrid Talent, and laugh all the way to the bank.  I'm sure some people already have.

               
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
But Dex Barbarians would be Whirlers, not Rageblood. And Rageblood has by far the best support in powers and class features.



Dex is pretty much the secondary stat for all Barbarians regardless of build. Mainly because HAE is terrible now, and the benefits of a high Dex outweigh any rider effects you get with other stats. Barbarians are front line combatants, and need the defenses.
Hide Armor Expertise (at the time it was given errata) had two problems.

1: Barbarian Defenses scale.  Right out of the box, you get +1 AC/Ref on top of your Hide Armor.  An 18 Str/Con Barbarian could claim an 18 AC with HAE.  This isn't a ridiculous amount of AC by current standards, but it probably raised a few eyebrows when the Barbarian was the new hotness.  

But at Paragon, and again at Epic, the AC/Ref increases again, so at high levels of play, the Barbarian with HAE probably had defenses that rivaled most Defenders.  Even the Berserker, a Barbarian sub-class designed to consider tanking as an option, doesn't have this good of a deal at high level. 

The Barbarian with HAE was getting a really good deal, and only had to pay a single Feat for it, while being a very high DPR Striker.  Contrast with other Strikers who have high defenses- they tend to inflict less damage.

2: Other classes could use HAE.  It may cost you an MC Feat, but if you wanted Con to AC for your class, the option was there, even if you weren't intended to have it.  Ironically, the class probably hardest hit by the HAE change wasn't the Barbarian- if you're Str/Con, you have the option of heavy armor.  You may not like spending 2 Feats to get Scale, or 3 to get Plate, but the option is there.

The Shaman was the class that really needed HAE, as Con-Shamans get shafted when it comes to AC.  Strength doesn't do much for them, as you might expect.

This was likely the thought process when HAE was given errata.  But does it still need this errata?

I'm inclined to say no.  I've seen enough Hybrid Cleric Builds poaching Battle Cleric's Lore for superior AC and Reflex to think that the current design team would have left HAE alone.  One could easily play a Hybrid Cleric/Barbarian, get 19 AC without even spending Hybrid Talent, and laugh all the way to the bank.  I'm sure some people already have.

               



And you get reflex and iniative with a dex build that still scales.

As well, while stat wise a defender does not get scaling defenses, hide armor at it's higher level only provides +2 extra armor where as plate armor provides +6; stat wise, Barbarians scale, but equipment wise most defenders scale relativley well and so it pans out equally (or should).


With a couple of feats that you will most likely get (plate and shield specialization, epic will etc.) you will easily be well above a Barbarian.

You can't really beat the raw addition of a shield, and pretty much all the super powerful barbarian abilities require a two handed weapon.


As well, rogues tend to have some of the highest defenses as well, but I suppose they have less health.


My thought on the errata was always that it should have been a tiered +2/+4/+6 bonus in place of your attribute modifier.  That would make acceptable without being completely overpowered.

-SYB
One of my utterly unscientific and completely subjective measurements of something potentially pushing the power curve is when I say "I hate this class, but this is so awesome I might actually be able to make myself play one."

HAE was in that range (Battle Cleric's Lore is now).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Hide armor expertise also stacked with Second Skin.  So in Epic with barbarian agiility a con barb was getting hide +5 + con mod.  In heoric it was ok, but in paragon and by Epic for sure it was broken with a frontline striker build that had near unhittable AC along with a ton of surges and temp hitpoints.

I do agree that it was fine for con shamans, who still needed to invest in strength to even get hide.  And it was ok for swarm druids and we ignored the errata for the swarm druid in my home group (the only errata we ever ignored), which was fine since they don't get barbarian agility.

Currently battle clerics lore is broken, not necessarily for most pure clerics, but it breaks the assumptions of how hybrids work and is even more broken if you allow the MC feat version.  Personally I think they should either remove the scale prof or add in scale prof for all templars since that is the simplest way to fix it.

Currently battle clerics lore is broken, not necessarily for most pure clerics, but it breaks the assumptions of how hybrids work and is even more broken if you allow the MC feat version.



It sure allowed my Bloodwright to be reasonably armored without really working too hard. But I think many hybrids are a bit screwed for armor purposes... or charged a feat tax and loose out on too much cool just to fix that issue.
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"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Hide armor expertise also stacked with Second Skin.  So in Epic with barbarian agiility a con barb was getting hide +5 + con mod.  In heoric it was ok, but in paragon and by Epic for sure it was broken with a frontline striker build that had near unhittable AC along with a ton of surges and temp hitpoints.

I do agree that it was fine for con shamans, who still needed to invest in strength to even get hide.  And it was ok for swarm druids and we ignored the errata for the swarm druid in my home group (the only errata we ever ignored), which was fine since they don't get barbarian agility.

Currently battle clerics lore is broken, not necessarily for most pure clerics, but it breaks the assumptions of how hybrids work and is even more broken if you allow the MC feat version.  Personally I think they should either remove the scale prof or add in scale prof for all templars since that is the simplest way to fix it.


Yes, HAE was too good for Ragebloods.  The scaling effect has already been mentioned (at low levels you're nearly at defender-level AC, at high levels you're competitive with all but the most cheesed-out AC builds (Swordmages, iirc, can get the highest AC)).  That's much better than a Ranger or Rogue can hope for, and the Barbarian has more HP, surges, and tends to have more durability-centric utilities.  The Barbarian's damage is also pretty close to a Ranger or Rogue's as well, especially the Rageblood who gets Swift Charge. 

Which is another issue; Swift Charge is a huge advantage that Ragebloods have over the other Barbarian builds, so why should Ragebloods also have the highest AC potential?  The Whirler's superirior AC (Dex + Barbarian Agility) is more forgivable because their single-target DPR is somewhat lacking compared with other Barbarians.

Con Shamans and Swarm Druids, OTOH, currently do not have functional AC without odd, unintuitive builds (heavy armor for Con Shamans and Serene Runepriest hybrids for Swarm Druids).  The errata for HAE should have been "Pre-requisite: Druid or Shaman," and Shamans should probably be errata'd to start with Hide proficiency as well. 



As well, while stat wise a defender does not get scaling defenses, hide armor at it's higher level only provides +2 extra armor where as plate armor provides +6; stat wise, Barbarians scale, but equipment wise most defenders scale relativley well and so it pans out equally (or should).


With a couple of feats that you will most likely get (plate and shield specialization, epic will etc.) you will easily be well above a Barbarian.

You can't really beat the raw addition of a shield, and pretty much all the super powerful barbarian abilities require a two handed weapon.


As well, rogues tend to have some of the highest defenses as well, but I suppose they have less health.


Heavy armor scales better because your Dex/Int (or Con/Wis for Wardens and Guardian Druids) modifier scales in light armor.  This actually puts light armor ahead of heavy in the long run; assuming a starting modifier of +4 (18/18 post-racial) by epic you're at +8, or +9 if you took an ED that boosts ability scores (as most people do).  So a Barbarian boosting Con (+4), taking an ED that boosts it futher (+1), has MW Hide (+2), and grabbing Second Skin (+2) will get 9+2 (for Barbarian Agility) for a total of +11.  The heavy armor guy will get 6 (MW armor) + 2 (shield) + 1 (feat bonus) = +9.  This is what allows the Barbarian to catch up with some high-defense (Sword and Board) defenders assuming a non-errata'd HAE, and that's just not necessary for what is probably the 3rd highest damage striker in the game (or around there). 

Better to force Barbarians into Dex/Con as co-secondaries because they're still very powerful post-errata. 

Rogue defenses don't scale quite as well since there's no Armor Spec for Leather (and Second Skin isn't an option), but it's not uncommon for them to take a 20 starting Dex, and they can also grab a Rhythm Parrying Dagger + TWD for +3 to AC.  Still, it's more feat and item intensive, and besides a Rogue's damage levels off in Paragon/Epic (they shine brightest in Heroic, typically out-performing even Rangers), whereas Rangers and Barbarians pick up a lot of steam at higher levels. 

I'm not sure how viable it is for a Rogue to upgrade to Hide, in which case they could get some pretty sick AC, but it would be really resource intensive (13 Str, 15 Con, Hide Prof, Hide Spec, Parrying Dagger Prof, TWF, TWD, Rhythm Blade enchantment).  Their offense would fall quite a bit by not taking more offensive feats, and the ability array would kill them.
One could easily play a Hybrid Cleric/Barbarian, get 19 AC without even spending Hybrid Talent, and laugh all the way to the bank.  I'm sure some people already have.

well, I haven't actually played this (I don't really have a character concept, just a mechanical one)...

Human Monk/Cleric hybrid, Battle Cleric's Lore, starting Wis 17 Dex 18, Hybrid Talent: Unarmored Defense, Unarmored Agility.

He has a hard time taking a shower because the water misses. (AC 20, naked, at level 1.)

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Of course, when discussing the relative scaling of Hide vs. Scale/Plate, you now have to take Elven Chain Shirts into account as well. 
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gack, the sneak in something for conan trick.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

If I remember correctly, HAE was nerfed around the time that Storm of Blades was reduced to having 3 attacks, rather than a number of attacks equal to the user's Con modifier. Is it any wonder why Barbarian MC and high constitution scores were so popular at that time?

note Gygax made a quote about D&D being a game about heroics including a comment about how Conan couldnt get his throat cut with a single stroke.. and mentioned and he did it all in a "chain mail shirt"

I think the chain mail shirt is a homage to Gygax and Conan.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Hide armor expertise also stacked with Second Skin.  So in Epic with barbarian agiility a con barb was getting hide +5 + con mod.  In heoric it was ok, but in paragon and by Epic for sure it was broken with a frontline striker build that had near unhittable AC along with a ton of surges and temp hitpoints.

I do agree that it was fine for con shamans, who still needed to invest in strength to even get hide.  And it was ok for swarm druids and we ignored the errata for the swarm druid in my home group (the only errata we ever ignored), which was fine since they don't get barbarian agility.

Currently battle clerics lore is broken, not necessarily for most pure clerics, but it breaks the assumptions of how hybrids work and is even more broken if you allow the MC feat version.  Personally I think they should either remove the scale prof or add in scale prof for all templars since that is the simplest way to fix it.



So get rid of second skin and be done with it; why this one?

You can, as I said, do better with Dex, and you don't need to be a whirling barbarian to get dex as your second stat, nor should you really.
Wait, did they nerf it again, or did OP arrive in a Delorean?

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144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
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57461258 wrote:
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See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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Show
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...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
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57545908 wrote:
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Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
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58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
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+10
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heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
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Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
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Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Wait, did they nerf it again, or did OP arrive in a Delorean?



That's kinda what I was wondering. They nerfed it a loooong time ago.
Wait, did they nerf it again, or did OP arrive in a Delorean?



I prefer a model T, but Dolereans have side opening doors which is just essential when you want to get in and out of the vechile all the time.
Wait, did they nerf it again, or did OP arrive in a Delorean?



I prefer a model T, but Dolereans have side opening doors which is just essential when you want to get in and out of the vechile all the time.



88 Miles per hour, 88 MILES PER HOUR!!!
Wait, did they nerf it again, or did OP arrive in a Delorean?



I prefer a model T, but Dolereans have side opening doors which is just essential when you want to get in and out of the vechile all the time.



88 Miles per hour, 88 MILES PER HOUR!!!



A turbo-Charged Model T can get there, but that was also a reason why. Doesn't matter when you can fly but it was already in the Delorean.

Model T's can run on Kerosene, Gasoline, Ethonal (grain alchohol) and basically any type of combustible liquid. With a distellery you could get enough power to get yourself where you needed to go, so if you got lost in time no biggie.

Plus, they are built like tanks, made of like solid steel, and while modern cars are built for the safety of their passengers in that respect, in that the car gets destroyed instead of the person inside it, due to the time travel and possibly being stuck somewhere in time it's great; you could run through a brick wall and not really worry about it, or be attacked by large creatures and stuff. You need to replace the glass, though, and up the engine a little; still, now that  the Delorean can fly it doesn't really matter and the weight can hold you down.
LOL

And Ring Mail is Chain Mail that provides the same defense as Hide Armor but gets benefits from Dex as it counts as light armor.


So you can get chain mail specialization that costs 15 Dex as presquite BUT get the benefit of the Dex to AC sense it counts as light armor; also, it gains durable 2.

So you can get +2 to AC over leather as a dex person (rouge, ranger) and not take the checks; as well as bump up your reflex and iniative- and still get the shirt and stuff.

But damn those constitution barbarians for trying to get their charachters to be playable.


Trolololo-
LOL

And Ring Mail is Chain Mail that provides the same defense as Hide Armor but gets benefits from Dex as it counts as light armor.


So you can get chain mail specialization that costs 15 Dex as presquite BUT get the benefit of the Dex to AC sense it counts as light armor; also, it gains durable 2.

So you can get +2 to AC over leather as a dex person (rouge, ranger) and not take the checks; as well as bump up your reflex and iniative- and still get the shirt and stuff.

But damn those constitution barbarians for trying to get their charachters to be playable.


Trolololo-



The new armor types only count as their base type for the purpose of what enchantments can be placed on them. Thus there is no expertise feat available for Ring Mail. (Though there is the Agile armor enchantment.)
LOL

And Ring Mail is Chain Mail that provides the same defense as Hide Armor but gets benefits from Dex as it counts as light armor.


So you can get chain mail specialization that costs 15 Dex as presquite BUT get the benefit of the Dex to AC sense it counts as light armor; also, it gains durable 2.

So you can get +2 to AC over leather as a dex person (rouge, ranger) and not take the checks; as well as bump up your reflex and iniative- and still get the shirt and stuff.

But damn those constitution barbarians for trying to get their charachters to be playable.


Trolololo-




The new armor types only count as their base type for the purpose of what enchantments can be placed on them. Thus there is no expertise feat available for Ring Mail. (Though there is the Agile armor enchantment.)




Even so it's Hide Armor without the con requirement.

A. This happened a super long time ago.

B. Barbarians are still around. Ragebloods are still working just fine. Just go STR primary and split the rest between CON and DEX. Your will sucks, but then again it should suck if you're a raged-out barbarian.

It sucked at the time, but we all got over it. As will you.
LOL

And Ring Mail is Chain Mail that provides the same defense as Hide Armor but gets benefits from Dex as it counts as light armor.


So you can get chain mail specialization that costs 15 Dex as presquite BUT get the benefit of the Dex to AC sense it counts as light armor; also, it gains durable 2.

So you can get +2 to AC over leather as a dex person (rouge, ranger) and not take the checks; as well as bump up your reflex and iniative- and still get the shirt and stuff.

But damn those constitution barbarians for trying to get their charachters to be playable.


Trolololo-




The new armor types only count as their base type for the purpose of what enchantments can be placed on them. Thus there is no expertise feat available for Ring Mail. (Though there is the Agile armor enchantment.)




Even so it's Hide Armor without the con requirement.



Except it's not, because you need Chain to qualify for the proficiency feat...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Except it's not, because you need Chain to qualify for the [Ring Mail] proficiency feat...


Chain or hide. Either will do.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

However, if the argument is that you don't need the CON for Hide, you need it for Chain instead (IIRC, I don't know the armour prof prereqs offhand) then it's no easier to obtain when you start at leather...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Yeah, I wasn't really disagreeing with the point you were making, just nitpicking the detail ;) . The chain and hide proficiency feats have identical prerequisites, so you're right that it makes no difference if you start from just leather proficiency.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

However, if the argument is that you don't need the CON for Hide, you need it for Chain instead (IIRC, I don't know the armour prof prereqs offhand) then it's no easier to obtain when you start at leather...



EXCEPT!

That the presquities for Chain is Dex which you will most likely have a lot of and Con for Hide, which will most likely be a stat waste; if you're a rouge or a ranger.
I think someone mentioned it earlier but what was the result for Ragebloods after HAE nerf?  They went with a Str 18 Con 12 Dex 16/18 (depending on race) choice 12 wis (for battle awareness at paragon) and had the exact same defenses that they woudl have had with unnerfed HAE, lost some temp hp (no biggy) hp/surges (again they had plenty) and getting Ref defense (huge), initiative (huge) and AC (required).  So did this nerf solve the issue it was supposed to? No, it just told Ragebloods that Con wasn't your secondary, Dex was.
So I just realized that Hide Armor Expertise is Nerfed...

Which doesn't really make any sense.

Right. The nerf didn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Even WITH HAE, Str/Dex was more appealing than Str/Con, even for Rageblood barbarians, once they prevented Con from controlling the number of attacks you got. +Init and +Ref are worth a lot more than the minor bonus +Con gives you. The riders aren't worth losing Init and Ref over, and you can be Born Under a Bad Sign to negate the hp penalty.

Now, Str/Dex is basically the best choice for most barbarians, unless you're building a leaderish barbarian or something and need the Cha.

So I just realized that Hide Armor Expertise is Nerfed...

Which doesn't really make any sense.

Right. The nerf didn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Even WITH HAE, Str/Dex was more appealing than Str/Con, even for Rageblood barbarians, once they prevented Con from controlling the number of attacks you got. +Init and +Ref are worth a lot more than the minor bonus +Con gives you. The riders aren't worth losing Init and Ref over, and you can be Born Under a Bad Sign to negate the hp penalty.

Now, Str/Dex is basically the best choice for most barbarians, unless you're building a leaderish barbarian or something and need the Cha.




Yep, they basically nerfed an already weak build and killed it basically.

Don't really know why; the iconic con builds, such as dwarves, minotaur, goliath, warforged, and basically all the others are just nowhere as good now.


If someone could come up with a theoretical reason why, such as that in later levels it could stack with something, then it would be great to tell GM's just to nerft that OR so when I GM'ed rather than just unferfing the feat I'd know which other feat to nerf.

There really doesn't seem to be a reason for this though, and it might have been just to cuase controversy or they were looking for a random feat to nerf. Tongue Out

There really doesn't seem to be a reason for this though, and it might have been just to cuase controversy or they were looking for a random feat to nerf.

Shamans and Druids are two other Primal characters whom use Light Armor at their core (and the Swarm Druid NEEDS to be in light armor for their damage mitigation to function) and can be Constitution based.  Giving them Defender level AC down the road (as Second Skin would also apply to them at Epic) - while also cutting damage dealt against Swarm Druids - would have been considered way too powerful.

On top of which... Battleminds.  A CON primary class, already proficient in Hide, that could just grab both that feat and Second Skin by multiclassing any primal class?  Broken, much?

Shamans and Druids are two other Primal characters whom use Light Armor at their core (and the Swarm Druid NEEDS to be in light armor for their damage mitigation to function) and can be Constitution based.  Giving them Defender level AC down the road (as Second Skin would also apply to them at Epic) - while also cutting damage dealt against Swarm Druids - would have been considered way too powerful.

Meh.

Having Con to AC isn't broken. All builds can do it already with Dex or Int.

Remember it costs you a feat. My AC actually went UP after retraining out of HAE, *and* I got a very valuable feat slot back.

There really doesn't seem to be a reason for this though, and it might have been just to cuase controversy or they were looking for a random feat to nerf.

Shamans and Druids are two other Primal characters whom use Light Armor at their core (and the Swarm Druid NEEDS to be in light armor for their damage mitigation to function) and can be Constitution based.  Giving them Defender level AC down the road (as Second Skin would also apply to them at Epic) - while also cutting damage dealt against Swarm Druids - would have been considered way too powerful.

On top of which... Battleminds.  A CON primary class, already proficient in Hide, that could just grab both that feat and Second Skin by multiclassing any primal class?  Broken, much?




If a battlemind spends all those feats it's not that OP; plus, they are tanks. A warden will most likely get a ton of stuff based off of Con as well, as it scales with their con...

As well, if they spend all the feats for tank level AC then they'll be lacking in other areas, and I doubt they'll be up to that AC; even so, they'll problably severly lack in other defenses.


What seems to be OP, to me, is the whole soft armor thing.

I never really got why a Mage could get 19 AC (the equiviliant at level 1) by level two (or one with a human) without any improved gear...


Staff mage +1 AC, +5 INT, Hafted Defense +1, Unarmored Agility +2. ._.

A rouge with a parrying dagger and two weapon defense (and a parrying dagger really seems to have no drawback as you use a small one-handed weapon for all of your primary attacks) can easily get up to 19 AC as well, and with studded leather armor or going that light chainmail thingy even higher.


Nerfing con barbarians becuase they are OP is ironic, as they are the least OP of all the softies.

But oh well.