No Paper Tigers!!!!: The Monk Handbook

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I did something pretty similar in my Stone Fist Mantis Style build, but I decided against the Spellscarred stuff.



This makes sense, as the spellscarred stuff can come back onto you and/or your party and ruin your day. 
I did something pretty similar in my Stone Fist Mantis Style build, but I decided against the Spellscarred stuff.



This makes sense, as the spellscarred stuff can come back onto you and/or your party and ruin your day. 


Why is that? Does the spellscarred stuff have some fluff disadvantages, that come alive some day and kick your ass?

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I did something pretty similar in my Stone Fist Mantis Style build, but I decided against the Spellscarred stuff.



This makes sense, as the spellscarred stuff can come back onto you and/or your party and ruin your day. 


Why is that? Does the spellscarred stuff have some fluff disadvantages, that come alive some day and kick your ass?



It's not fluff.  It's mechanical:


2. Pernicious Onslaught: "When a creature fails a saving throw against ongoing damage from one of your attacks, one creature adjacent to it takes fire and necrotic damage equal to the ongoing damage. If you have the Student of the Plague feat, the damage is equal to the ongoing damage plus 5"




In short, you and your allies can be the "one creature adjacent to it" that "take fire and necrotic damage equal to the ongoing damage" +5.   For a ongoing specialist, that can really add up to a lot of damage inflicted on yourself and/or your party. 
Two things I'm not clear about:

1. the guide states that FOB counts as an attack power under the RC guidelines.  Can someone provide a specific reference in the RC that supports this?(I assume the reasoning here is because the RC designates any power that has a target as an attack, but that seems a little shaky).

2. If FOB counts as an attack, why does Masterful Spiral not increase its range? Is it because FOB lacks the melee keyword (despite the fact that it's got a melee range)?

Two things I'm not clear about:

1. the guide states that FOB counts as an attack power under the RC guidelines. Can someone provide a specific reference in the RC that supports this?(I assume the reasoning here is because the RC designates any power that has a target as an attack, but that seems a little shaky).


I'll defer to Enaloindir on the explanation for this:

You're mistaking. Flurry of Blows *is* an attack power. As described in the Rules Compendium (p89-90), there are only attack powers or utility powers. The criteria for being an attack power:
It uses an attack roll: FoB doesn't qualify
It deals damage: Fob clearly qualifies.
Hence, FoB is an attack power.


2. If FOB counts as an attack, why does Masterful Spiral not increase its range? Is it because FOB lacks the melee keyword (despite the fact that it's got a melee range)?

No, it's because Masterful Spiral increases the range of melee touch attacks by 1. All three versions of Flurry of Blows are defined as melee 1 attacks, so they're not eligible. This made me pass over Masterful Spiral in favor of other dailies at level 1, though I eventually ended up retraining to it, because the close burst 2 for 3d8+Dex (force) is ridiculously good on its own, and the stance is icing on the cake.

[grammar edit] 

Two things I'm not clear about:

1. the guide states that FOB counts as an attack power under the RC guidelines. Can someone provide a specific reference in the RC that supports this?(I assume the reasoning here is because the RC designates any power that has a target as an attack, but that seems a little shaky).


I'll defer to Enaloindir on the explanation for this:

You're mistaking. Flurry of Blows *is* an attack power. As described in the Rules Compendium (p89-90), there are only attack powers or utility powers. The criteria for being an attack power:
It uses an attack roll: FoB doesn't qualify
It deals damage: Fob clearly qualifies.
Hence, FoB is an attack power.


2. If FOB counts as an attack, why does Masterful Spiral not increase its range? Is it because FOB lacks the melee keyword (despite the fact that it's got a melee range)?

No, it's because Masterful Spiral increases the range of melee touch attacks by 1. All three versions of Flurry of Blows are defined as melee 1 attacks, so they're not eligible. This made me pass over Masterful Spiral in favor of other dailies at level 1, though I eventually ended up retraining to it, because the close burst 2 for 3d8+Dex (force) is ridiculously good on its own, and the stance is icing on the cake.

[grammar edit] 



There have been several good summaries on this thread.   The one quoted previously by Enaloindir was one of them. 

I also wanted to add in an argument about the intent of the rules (RAI), which is also clear and consistent with the RAW. 

WOTC errated FoB into a no action, which shows RAI.  This shows intent because if FoB isn't an attack, then there would be no game effect of this errata.  If FoB is an attack, the only game effect is that monks after the errata can make one free action attack during their per turn as FoB is no longer occupying their one free action attack per turn slot. 

The divine challenge errata into a utility power is similar.  The RC broke divine challenge (as it became an attack power and thus self-sustaining), and an errata was needed to fix it by making divine challenge a utility power.

In other words, not only is RAW clear, but RAI is as well in this case.  FoB is clearly an attack power. 

This has probably been answered before, but I cannot find it.


how does lasting frost/winter touched work with the burst or blast powers of the monk?


does it work for everyone hit in burst or blast or just the first person?


Thank you!


This has probably been answered before, but I cannot find it.


how does lasting frost/winter touched work with the burst or blast powers of the monk?


does it work for everyone hit in burst or blast or just the first person?


Thank you!



It works like with all other classes, namely any attack you do, on any creature (including allies, if the power targets them). It does not matter if you're a fighter with an ice sword, or a wizard with a frost staff, that converts all his fire balls and lightning bolts into frost balls and frost bolts.

The only monk specific thing about htis is, that he could already exploit vuln 5 cold with his FoB, during the turn he first hits one or more targets. Other classes must either wait one turn for this, spend an AP or have some minor action attack powers.

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This has probably been answered before, but I cannot find it.


how does lasting frost/winter touched work with the burst or blast powers of the monk?


does it work for everyone hit in burst or blast or just the first person?


Thank you!



It works like with all other classes, namely any attack you do, on any creature (including allies, if the power targets them). It does not matter if you're a fighter with an ice sword, or a wizard with a frost staff, that converts all his fire balls and lightning bolts into frost balls and frost bolts.

The only monk specific thing about htis is, that he could already exploit vuln 5 cold with his FoB, during the turn he first hits one or more targets. Other classes must either wait one turn for this, spend an AP or have some minor action attack powers.



Actually Lasting Frost only affects the first target you hit each turn, so it doesn't work all that well with bursts and blasts.

Getting cold on FoB is tough, since it lacks the weapon keyword you can't use most of the standard methods. 

This has probably been answered before, but I cannot find it.


how does lasting frost/winter touched work with the burst or blast powers of the monk?


does it work for everyone hit in burst or blast or just the first person?


Thank you!



It works like with all other classes, namely any attack you do, on any creature (including allies, if the power targets them). It does not matter if you're a fighter with an ice sword, or a wizard with a frost staff, that converts all his fire balls and lightning bolts into frost balls and frost bolts.

The only monk specific thing about htis is, that he could already exploit vuln 5 cold with his FoB, during the turn he first hits one or more targets. Other classes must either wait one turn for this, spend an AP or have some minor action attack powers.



Actually Lasting Frost only affects the first target you hit each turn, so it doesn't work all that well with bursts and blasts.

Getting cold on FoB is tough, since it lacks the weapon keyword you can't use most of the standard methods. 



rjsilverthorn is right on both points.

Lasting Frost was errataed to only the first target.
 
FoB lacks all keywords, so Frost weapon does not change the damage.     

So not an optimal way for a monk to go.
Thanks for all the help.
much appreciated.
So not an optimal way for a monk to go.
Thanks for all the help.
much appreciated.



Well, you could blow your MC and PP on Malec-Keth Janissary to add 1d4 cold damage to all attacks.  Since FoB is now an attack you can do it.  Still very, very far from optimal though.
So not an optimal way for a monk to go.
Thanks for all the help.
much appreciated.



Well, you could blow your MC and PP on Malec-Keth Janissary to add 1d4 cold damage to all attacks.  Since FoB is now an attack you can do it.  Still very, very far from optimal though.



Alternately you can MC Barb and take the Winter Fury PP which would let you make all your untyped damage into cold. Not a terrible option for a stone fist build.
I hadn't thought of Winter Fury, obviously.  That is much better.
So not an optimal way for a monk to go.
Thanks for all the help.
much appreciated.



Well, you could blow your MC and PP on Malec-Keth Janissary to add 1d4 cold damage to all attacks.  Since FoB is now an attack you can do it.  Still very, very far from optimal though.



Yeah, if you're Malex-Keth, you're better off by far with thunder.  Just to be clear, malec-keth is very strong for monks. 
Now I am confused. Is that not a Swordmage Paragon path?

Since Frost cheese is not optimal for a monk since the rules update, what is?
Now I am confused. Is that not a Swordmage Paragon path?

Since Frost cheese is not optimal for a monk since the rules update, what is?


1) Yes.  But it allows you to add elemental damage to everything.  Such as frost damage to flurry of blows, or thunder to five storms.

2) Frost is still large source of damage, since you can double tap with flurry.  Thunder makes your bursts (five storms) bigger, and allows mark of storms for more control.  Not sure if one is really "better".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

FoB is such a confusing feature (Despite how much I love it)...

Okay, at risk of rekindling something already adressed, I'm still having issues with how FoB interacts with attack enhancing stuff.

Scenario: Off-hand sickle, augmented with the Eberron Shard of Bleeding Wounds. I make an attack, and then use Slashing Kama Style to deal ongoing damage instead of normal damage via FoB. Does the ongoing damage get increased by 2 thanks to the Bleeding Wounds? Even if FoB is counted as an attack, it's unclear to me what weapon is actually counted as doing the attack, if any.

Wording on the shard: "Whenever an attack with the augmented weapon deals ongoing damage to a creature, increase that damage by 2". RAI, you could argue that since the sickle is specifically doing that part of FoB, the shard applies, but RAW it's unclear.

2pp for your thoughts?

If this works, it'd be a neat little addition to those kama monks.
FoB is such a confusing feature (Despite how much I love it)...

Okay, at risk of rekindling something already adressed, I'm still having issues with how FoB interacts with attack enhancing stuff.

Scenario: Off-hand sickle, augmented with the Eberron Shard of Bleeding Wounds. I make an attack, and then use Slashing Kama Style to deal ongoing damage instead of normal damage via FoB. Does the ongoing damage get increased by 2 thanks to the Bleeding Wounds? Even if FoB is counted as an attack, it's unclear to me what weapon is actually counted as doing the attack, if any.

Wording on the shard: "Whenever an attack with the augmented weapon deals ongoing damage to a creature, increase that damage by 2". RAI, you could argue that since the sickle is specifically doing that part of FoB, the shard applies, but RAW it's unclear.

2pp for your thoughts?

If this works, it'd be a neat little addition to those kama monks.



Unfortunatrely, RAW, weapons/implements are only used in attacks with the weapon/implement keyword. Despite the fluff of the feat implying the use of the kama, mechanically the kama is not used at all by the FoB power.
Hi,

Some mechanics questions re: options.  If I use Crane's Wings I push the target if successful...do I have to push the target? Often it will put them out of FoB range.  Similarly, if I have Centred Defense active, when I use Masterful Spiral do I have to change stances?
Hi,

Some mechanics questions re: options.  If I use Crane's Wings I push the target if successful...do I have to push the target? Often it will put them out of FoB range.  Similarly, if I have Centred Defense active, when I use Masterful Spiral do I have to change stances?



1. Whenever movement is part of a power (no matter if it refers to you or an ally), you or the ally can choose to move less than the amount (including 0 squares). The same is true for forced movement, just that the originator of the forced movement gets to decide the end of it, instead of the target.

Just remember, when a specific target square is mentioned in the power, you can only choose either to move there, or not at all (like: you can shift to a square adjacent to the target). YOu cannot stop halfway through, in these cases.

Regarding FoB and push. FoB is a free action, so you can use it before the push part of Crane's Wing happens.

2. The rules text of stances does not indicate, that entering a stance as part of a power is optional, so you cannot ignore to enter the stance from "masterful spiral". So why use masterful spiral at all, when you're already in another stance?

If a mounted adventurer with "badge of the berserker charges, does the mounts movement provoke oportunity attacks?

Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

Crayne is right. As for the badge of beserker question, your mount still provkes oas and the enemies can choose to attack you instead. So the answer is no you don't provoke, but you will be attacked anyway instead of your mount.
any cool themes for monks???


So not an optimal way for a monk to go.
Thanks for all the help.
much appreciated.



Well, you could blow your MC and PP on Malec-Keth Janissary to add 1d4 cold damage to all attacks.  Since FoB is now an attack you can do it.  Still very, very far from optimal though.



Yeah, if you're Malex-Keth, you're better off by far with thunder.  Just to be clear, malec-keth is very strong for monks. 


Wouldn't Soaring Blade do the same thing (5 levels later) without costing you your MC?
Wouldn't Soaring Blade do the same thing (5 levels later) without costing you your MC?

Soaring Blade's lvl 16 feature only works on melee attacks, so not on Five Storms.
Soaring Blade doesn't add thunder, so it doesn't work with resounding thunder to increase your AoE attacks.
Soaring Blade doesn't add the extra damage to your FoB.

Malec-Keth does all those things, making it worth the multiclass slot.
Any thought to doing a themes section?  I'm having a surprisingly tough time picking one for my monk.

-Go-tos for free CA like Pack Outcast and Fey Beast Tamer aren't as strong when you have a Centered Breath Monk with Deadly Draw. 
-A lot of the attack boosting themes are based on weapon attacks. 
-A lot of the other, well, thematic themes are based of CHA. 

Alchemist is neat, but only if you keep up on recipies.  Order Adept fleshes out your utility selection nicely, but Monks have great utility choices as is.

Its a tough decision for sure.
I can't speak for Centered Breath, but for Iron Soul Pack Outcast looks promising.  Free CA for self and possibly some allies, and with the rogue PP Blade Bravo can lay down a bunch of marks too to enhance the defendery feel of iron souls.  I'm considering this route as none of the monk PPs thrill me.

A lot depends on how your table interprets ki-focused weapons.  If you use the most liberal interpretation, you can ki-focus whatever weapon you have for melee(??) attacks which is tantamount to turning the weapon attack into an implement attack.  A more restrictive interpretation would close down those weapon attack options.
As a Drow Centered Breath I'm taking Ghostwalker, though I originally had sights on Thuranni Shadow Killer.  Ghostwalker's superior mobility and defenses win out though.

My DM is very open to houserule, so I can probably just alter one of the weapon attack-based Themes.  However, by RAW it wouldn't work, as the the wording is "weapon Attack" rather than "Attack with a Weapon".  The former means it needs the weapon keyword, as opposed to the implement keyword the monk uses, even for attacks using a weapon, as that weapon is effectively the Ki Focus.

That's how I understand it anyway.

I you're looking to build an Iron Soul, check out Revenant Wilden MC Warden.  They have a feat that allows them to slow on an OA I believe, and then World Serphant's Grasp allows you to know prone because of the slow.  So if you hit them, they can't shift, and your OA knocks prone. It may be one of the builds in Kender's Handbook, I forget where I saw it.
There aren't that many that jump out at me for monk.  Monks generally are short on minor action and immediate attacks, but most of the theme powers that do that are weapon attacks.  I think Devils pawn is a decent choice since hellfire and brimstone is a minor action close burst with a good debuff, but its not party friendly.  Guardian is ok if you have a decent MBA.  Knight hospitaler works for centered breath builds, but its not offensive oriented.
How about Spelled Scarred Harbinger for a stonefist Monk build?
I keep trying to make the section, but skyrim was distracting me. I will make it a priority over the next couple days.
Thank you sir!!! 
Thank you sir!!! 

I am sure this has been asked many times but does Starblade Flurry give a paragon level monk up to 3 FOB or does it just add range to the second one you get at 11th level?
Sorry if this has been asked and answered before.

Thanks
I am sure this has been asked many times but does Starblade Flurry give a paragon level monk up to 3 FOB or does it just add range to the second one you get at 11th level?
Sorry if this has been asked and answered before.

Thanks



It adds a third target which is why its really hard to justify not using a dagger for a monk

Thank you very much. I hear you there. dagger is a must have at paragon.
Any advice on which daggers to use? currently use rhythym dagger in off hand and a club in main hand. I am currenly 10th level Stonefist.
Thank you very much. I hear you there. dagger is a must have at paragon.
Any advice on which daggers to use? currently use rhythym dagger in off hand and a club in main hand. I am currenly 10th level Stonefist.



It depends really, since if you are using a Ki Focus, Ryhthm and Shielding are probably the best options since their properties are passive. The Item section of the guide has a few good choices otherwise.
thanks
Kender, what are your thoughts on the Shoulderbow with the Unseen Hand PP? It was mentioned recently in my Stone Claw Mantis thread. When I first read the item, I dismissed it, because I could of sworn that Unseen Hand required you to be holding a handcrossbow in your offhand. It actually says that you "fire a crossbow that you are holding". I had probably confused it with Two-Fisted Shooter. Are you holding an attached item though... That's the fuzzy part.

It would require either Warforged or Ring of the Warforged (as its an attached item), but if it works that way, it would allow for the combination of Unseen Hand + Starblade Flurry + Crashing Tempest (or Slashing Kama, or Pointed Step etc.). Also, you don't have to reload... Pretty attractive package for trading a ring slot. The ring and the Shoulderbow each have useful dailies, just for kicks (10/20 THP and a minor action RBA, respectively).

As for how to fluff it as a cool item... ever seen those wrist mounted mini crossbows? Pretty nice explanation.

Anyways, figured it might be a worthwhile bit to add to Unseen Hand. Yet another "Ask your DM if it works" piece of material =P. 
I've posted a preliminary version of the themes section.  Please let me know what you think.  Monks aren't like other classes in a lot of respects, so keep that in mind when you're looking things over.   

 
Kender, what are your thoughts on the Shoulderbow with the Unseen Hand PP? It was mentioned recently in my Stone Claw Mantis thread. When I first read the item, I dismissed it, because I could of sworn that Unseen Hand required you to be holding a handcrossbow in your offhand. It actually says that you "fire a crossbow that you are holding". I had probably confused it with Two-Fisted Shooter. Are you holding an attached item though... That's the fuzzy part.

It would require either Warforged or Ring of the Warforged (as its an attached item), but if it works that way, it would allow for the combination of Unseen Hand + Starblade Flurry + Crashing Tempest (or Slashing Kama, or Pointed Step etc.). Also, you don't have to reload... Pretty attractive package for trading a ring slot. The ring and the Shoulderbow each have useful dailies, just for kicks (10/20 THP and a minor action RBA, respectively).

As for how to fluff it as a cool item... ever seen those wrist mounted mini crossbows? Pretty nice explanation.

Anyways, figured it might be a worthwhile bit to add to Unseen Hand. Yet another "Ask your DM if it works" piece of material =P. 



I think it will probably work in most games.  It is fuzzy whether you're holding a shoulderbow, but I doubt many DMs would have a problem with it.  It is a pretty late paragon combination to make a level 11 feature work correctly.  It also requires two uncommons to make it work.  The Unseen Hand has always been difficult and costly to get to work, which is a pity.

I downgraded Internalize the Basic Kata, as I just realized that it doesn't let you use your FoB if you already used your FoB in the round.  I can't remember the last time I failed to use FoB on a monk's turn, so it basically is an improved Melee Training for ki focus users.  As monks won't have any weapon power feats, items, etc, monks will still hit like little girls, so it will still fail at getting a threatening OA.   

Any comments on the themes section?
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