The Rules Of Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D.

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I think there is something else that needs to be addressed in the hidden club:

When a creature is removed from play (from a power such as Void Assumption). You may technically not be "hidden" per RAW, but you are effectively hidden.

The question arises...when you come back into play, does every enemy combatant automatically know where you are? What if you come back behind cover or superior cover? Can you make a stealth check? What if you appear adjacent to an enemy? Would you have CA if you make an attack immediately after starting your turn?

I'm curious what the RAW and RAI would be here.
You are not hidden, but nothing has line of sight to you, so you have total concealment. If you're able to take your turns normally, you can hide while removed from play. But if you're returned from play without any concealment, say goodbye to that.
I think there is something else that needs to be addressed in the hidden club:

When a creature is removed from play (from a power such as Void Assumption). You may technically not be "hidden" per RAW, but you are effectively hidden.

The question arises...when you come back into play, does every enemy combatant automatically know where you are? What if you come back behind cover or superior cover? Can you make a stealth check? What if you appear adjacent to an enemy? Would you have CA if you make an attack immediately after starting your turn?

I'm curious what the RAW and RAI would be here.



Like Tomu said.

You aren't hidden until you make a stealth roll or use a power that specificly defines you as hidden. It should be noted that you will not reappear during an action so any actions you take (if you lose the hidden effect by appearing out of concealment) would not get CA or other benefits.

I enjoy being referenced. It gives me warm fuzzies.
Here's a situation where I remove the enemy from the board when its not "hidden". But should I?

During an encounter with numerous enemies, one enemy moves into an empty room and shuts the door. Should the players know where that enemy is in the room? Suppose there's an unknown secret door in the room that the enemy is using in an attempt to escape.
Here's a situation where I remove the enemy from the board when its not "hidden". But should I?

During an encounter with numerous enemies, one enemy moves into an empty room and shuts the door. Should the players know where that enemy is in the room? Suppose there's an unknown secret door in the room that the enemy is using in an attempt to escape.



Yes, you should leave the mini on the board, BUT:

1)  The monster has Total Concealment, and thus can attempt to become Hidden at the end of every Move.

2) A closed and locked door, and thick walls, provide a perfectly good excuse for a situational penalty to the Perception check, making it much easier for him to become Hidden (and get yanked off the board) and to stay Hidden (unless they get in there before he gets out of sight.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Well the funny thing there is that, no matter what the perception penalty is, a stunned enemy cannot hide.


If a stunned cat is put into a box, and the state of decay of a particle determines whether or not Stinking Cloud is cast on the area, no matter what the perception penalty, because the cat cannot hide, we will inevitably know where it is.

Though not necessarily if it's alive or dead.

Okay, so, that was a really stupid schrodinger's cat reference, but you get the idea.
Great work LoW. Clear and concise.

May i suggest to remind Hidden Club members how easily it is for a creature to try and find you on it;s turn, Minor Action Perception check. Doesn't mean it's easily achievable, but trying isn't hard at all and it can be tried more than once at any given time.


So should one remove the figuring from the board or not ? How to do it right could be to assign the Map's axis some letter A-B-C etc...and numbers 1-2-3 etc.... Hidden PC's players select a a square they occupy when moving while Hidden into a square and write it away. When the enemy attack the Hidden PC, the DM select a square and see if it matches.

Actually, being around a corner technically gives you superior cover not concealment. (you aren't invisible or in an obscured square)



Humm...this seems not right if i understood correctly. Because how you trace LoE and LoS are done in a similar fashion using corners or spaces, if you can't trace a Lines to a creature standing around a corner, the creature effectively has Superior Cover but also Total Concealment. Blocking Terrain block LoS.

PHB 273 Line of Sight: Even if you can see a target, objects and effects can still partially block your view. If you can see a target but at least one line passes through an obstruction, the target has cover or concealment.

The corner wouldn't grant concealment persay, but if the corner is opaque, it blocks line of sight, which has the side-effect of granting total concealment (effectively speaking).
The corner wouldn't grant concealment persay, but if the corner is opaque, it blocks line of sight, which has the side-effect of granting total concealment (effectively speaking).



It doesn't "grant concealment" like a terrain feature that grants concealment does.

But it DOES block LoS, and blocked LoS ALSO causes concealment.

It doesn't matter if you can't see me because I'm invisible, you're blind, there's a solid wall in the way, or there's a Stinking Cloud that blocks LoS but not LoE in the way.

What matters is that if you can't see me, I have Total Concealment from you.  If it's a solid wall, I ALSO have "No Line Of Effect", which is like Superior Cover but better.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
The corner wouldn't grant concealment persay, but if the corner is opaque, it blocks line of sight, which has the side-effect of granting total concealment (effectively speaking).



For future reference, "per se" is the term you are looking for.  It's Latin for "by itself."  You've use it correctly, but spelled it worng.  Just an FYI.
Then just assume I'm coining a phrase. Like Vorpal.

So should one remove the figuring from the board or not ? How to do it right could be to assign the Map's axis some letter A-B-C etc...and numbers 1-2-3 etc.... Hidden PC's players select a a square they occupy when moving while Hidden into a square and write it away. When the enemy attack the Hidden PC, the DM select a square and see if it matches.

This depends on the people at your table. If the players can't trust the DM and the DM can't trust the players, then bring out the Battleship™ rules, otherwise just note where the guy was last percieved to be.

"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.
By RAW, there is nothing that says that a creature of whom you have no method of detecting is automatically hidden from you. So, if an enemy is 10000 feet away but it doesn't make a hide check (because it's stunned) technically it's not hidden from you. So there's a bit of gameplay/story segregation going on here.

I would probably argue that RAI somewhere in there is that, if you can't detect a creature by any means, it is automatically hidden. However, even a natural sense of kinesis lets player characters able to detect the presence of silent invisible enemies-they can feel it in the air (they're just that badass). Likewise, a solid wall may block some sound, but not all of it. It's ultimately a judgment call on the part of the DM when there's no longer any means of detection.

But yes, by RAW, near as I can tell, there is no way for a creature to be hidden-and thus its position unknown-without a hide check.

Edit: It occurs to me that the 10,000 feet away issue is something of an EPR paradox. The only thing that can be communicated is "what square is this guy standing in." Which can be used to transmit data faster than the speed of light!
By RAW, there is nothing that says that a creature of whom you have no method of detecting is automatically hidden from you. So, if an enemy is 10000 feet away but it doesn't make a hide check (because it's stunned) technically it's not hidden from you. So there's a bit of gameplay/story segregation going on here.



An enemy that is 2,000 squares away is most likely not in the current Encounter, and thus does not *need* to be Hidden for you to not know where it is.

I would probably argue that RAI somewhere in there is that, if you can't detect a creature by any means, it is automatically hidden. However, even a natural sense of kinesis lets player characters able to detect the presence of silent invisible enemies-they can feel it in the air (they're just that badass). Likewise, a solid wall may block some sound, but not all of it. It's ultimately a judgment call on the part of the DM when there's no longer any means of detection.



Generally, "when the monster is no longer in the Encounter" is good enough.

But yes, by RAW, near as I can tell, there is no way for a creature to be hidden-and thus its position unknown-without a hide check.



That is correct.  It is absolutely impossible to *not* know where a non-Hidden monster is, if the monster is in the Encounter in the first place.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
What about the OTHER perception rules? I would argue that, if a creature is not making a stealth check, you still have to make perception checks (or have a high enough passive perception) to be able to detect a human sized object in a given field of concealment!

In which case the penalties to perception would actually apply.

Not "in the current encounter" is a Gameplay and Story Segregation issue, BTW.

So should one remove the figuring from the board or not ? How to do it right could be to assign the Map's axis some letter A-B-C etc...and numbers 1-2-3 etc.... Hidden PC's players select a a square they occupy when moving while Hidden into a square and write it away. When the enemy attack the Hidden PC, the DM select a square and see if it matches.

This depends on the people at your table. If the players can't trust the DM and the DM can't trust the players, then bring out the Battleship™ rules, otherwise just note where the guy was last percieved to be.



For me, it depends on the enemy attacking the hidden PC. If the enemy is dumb as a brick (ie, low INT), I just assume it misses or concentrates on someone visible. If the enemy has a high INT, and feels that attacking the hidden PC isn't a waste of time, then it will either attack the last place it saw the PC disappear or a random square around that area. Assign each square around the area a number on a die or something.

PCs moving around without the DM knowing where exactly they are moving seems like a bad idea to me. What if there are traps in the area? Difficult terrain the PC wants to jump? "Why are you rolling an Athletics check?" And probably a bunch of other things that don't come immediately to mind. Proper movement monitored by the DM seems important to me (especially with newer players).
Hi,

Sorry about the delay, I didn't see this question until I came back today.

Does Blind / Deaf (-10 to Perception checks) apply to passives?

If they do the case falls to the waterfall scenario...   Make your check, they have a -20 to their passive perception!



Yes, a "penalty to perception checks" also applies to passive perception checks. 

I was saying "-30" in the original because "a very long distance away" could easily give a -10 situational check.

Also, I followed the link to your house rules, and you've got a couple of things in there that seem very odd (at least one of which is relevant to this thread!)

First:  You've got a house rule restricting the number of Immediates someone can take in response to a single event as "one interrupt and one reaction, no more" to stop people from taking all kinds of Interrupts or Reactions - did you know that you can only take on Immediate Action PER FULL ROUND?

Second:  You've got a "house rule" that Stealth works vs Passive Perception, no rolls required - that's how it *already* works, and the Minor Action roll to penetrate stealth is an option in case the guy rolling Stealth beat your Passive.

All the other rules there appear to be valid House Rule changes - but those two jumped out at me as requiring a fundamental misunderstanding of the RAW.  And, hey, the second one is Relevant To THis Thread's Interests.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
It's possible that all four PCs decide to spend an immediate reaction for the same event.
It's possible that all four PCs decide to spend an immediate reaction for the same event.



Yes, but the listed house rule restricts Immediates that any one character can take.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Hybrid Fighter/Battlemind with Rapid Combat Challenge?
Here's a situation where I remove the enemy from the board when its not "hidden". But should I?

During an encounter with numerous enemies, one enemy moves into an empty room and shuts the door. Should the players know where that enemy is in the room? Suppose there's an unknown secret door in the room that the enemy is using in an attempt to escape.



Yes, you should leave the mini on the board, BUT:

1)  The monster has Total Concealment, and thus can attempt to become Hidden at the end of every Move.

2) A closed and locked door, and thick walls, provide a perfectly good excuse for a situational penalty to the Perception check, making it much easier for him to become Hidden (and get yanked off the board) and to stay Hidden (unless they get in there before he gets out of sight.)



I've been thinking about this one, concerning an enemy moving into a room and shutting the door. Would there be a difference between that and a room the PCs have never been in before and with 4 enemies hanging about waiting for them to open the door? Suppose the highest perception character listens at the door... obvisiously unaware enemies aren't all default hidden. Do I place minis on the board, but not tiles for the room?
If enemies aren't attempting to be hidden, a crafty DM would argue that the perception check to detect them is the perception check to notice the presence of a medium (or however large) sized object.





With all the associated penalties for doing so behind a thick wall, and without line of sight. That being said, if a character makes that perception check and you rule that they heard the exact position of the enemies through the door, that's fair-heroes are pretty awesome.
If enemies aren't attempting to be hidden, a crafty DM would argue that the perception check to detect them is the perception check to notice the presence of a medium (or however large) sized object.





With all the associated penalties for doing so behind a thick wall, and without line of sight. That being said, if a character makes that perception check and you rule that they heard the exact position of the enemies through the door, that's fair-heroes are pretty awesome.



I'd approach it from a different tack.

If an enemy has run off to parts unknown, ie off the area of the encounter, it has either disengaged or may have triggered another encounter. If disengaged, the encounter rules for "knowing" what square a creature is in resets to pre-encounter rules, untill someone pokes their head into the room and gets the lay of the land or the GM draws it out or sets up the tiles. If the creature is still in the room at that time the PCs know what square it's in. If there is another encounter in that area, that probably also triggers and all those creatures are going to know where the PCs are as well...


I DM for my group a lot, and for me Stealth and Invisibility was always "one of those rules". A few times I've had to crack open books in the middle of combat or issue a DM fiat to just move on from the issue. Then I read LordofWeasels' explanation of the rules. Now I can finally add invisible and stealthy monsters without bringing the action to a grinding halt. Thank you, LordofWeasels, for helping me get on with my game!

(This was written by a real DM and not a paid actor) 
I've added a couple of "things you should ask your GM" to the original post.  Anything else jump out?
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
See this thread.  What happens when a creature is effected by a rune of peace type power (the effect on a miss is that it can't attack you until the end of your next turn) and you are hidden?   For instance, what happens if it tries to use a blast or burst power if it does not know you are in the AoE?

This will mainly apply to assasins who are often hidden and who have a couple of powers that say enemies may not attack attack them.
See this thread.  What happens when a creature is effected by a rune of peace type power (the effect on a miss is that it can't attack you until the end of your next turn) and you are hidden?   For instance, what happens if it tries to use a blast or burst power if it does not know you are in the AoE?

This will mainly apply to assasins who are often hidden and who have a couple of powers that say enemies may not attack attack them.



That's an interesting one, yeah.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
One thing that does seem debatable is exactly what the rule allowing you to retain the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action actually means. The rule appears to be intended to allow you to use something like Deft Strike, move, and attack with CA. It doesn't really seem to be intended to mean you actually are hidden during the action (assuming you say moved out of cover/concealment obviously). In other words I don't really think it is intended to for example force enemies to take a -5 penalty to attack you (with OAs generally) and not know what square you're in as you rush past them to hack their leader to death. Your target(s) grant you CA, that doesn't mean you're hidden from them. The RAW just says you 'retain the benefits', which certainly read straightly includes being hidden, but I'd seriously doubt that is the RAI.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
One thing that does seem debatable is exactly what the rule allowing you to retain the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action actually means. The rule appears to be intended to allow you to use something like Deft Strike, move, and attack with CA. It doesn't really seem to be intended to mean you actually are hidden during the action (assuming you say moved out of cover/concealment obviously). In other words I don't really think it is intended to for example force enemies to take a -5 penalty to attack you (with OAs generally) and not know what square you're in as you rush past them to hack their leader to death. Your target(s) grant you CA, that doesn't mean you're hidden from them. The RAW just says you 'retain the benefits', which certainly read straightly includes being hidden, but I'd seriously doubt that is the RAI.


In order to even make an OA, you need to be able to see your target, so there wouldn't be a -5 penalty... there'd be no OA in the first place.

I'm pretty much OK with that.  My picture is that you appear out of nowhere so quickly that enemies can't really react.

And it is, clearly, how the stealth description says it works.  I wouldn't object if your enemies just granted you CA, but it doesn't seem debatable but that you get the whole benefit of being hidden.
One thing that does seem debatable is exactly what the rule allowing you to retain the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action actually means. The rule appears to be intended to allow you to use something like Deft Strike, move, and attack with CA. It doesn't really seem to be intended to mean you actually are hidden during the action (assuming you say moved out of cover/concealment obviously). In other words I don't really think it is intended to for example force enemies to take a -5 penalty to attack you (with OAs generally) and not know what square you're in as you rush past them to hack their leader to death. Your target(s) grant you CA, that doesn't mean you're hidden from them. The RAW just says you 'retain the benefits', which certainly read straightly includes being hidden, but I'd seriously doubt that is the RAI.


In order to even make an OA, you need to be able to see your target, so there wouldn't be a -5 penalty... there'd be no OA in the first place.

I'm pretty much OK with that.  My picture is that you appear out of nowhere so quickly that enemies can't really react.

And it is, clearly, how the stealth description says it works.  I wouldn't object if your enemies just granted you CA, but it doesn't seem debatable but that you get the whole benefit of being hidden.



Except we are debating it. Actually it can be debated. The rule says "you retain the benefits of being hidden", it doesn't say "you remain hidden", which leads me to the conclusion that there is a difference between BEING hidden and the benefits of being hidden. Admittedly the rules don't provide a definition of that, but it IS clear that the character is NOT hidden at that point. He's in some in-between state where he gets something, which could be interpreted as being exactly like being hidden, but then you beg the question of why the wording is different. Given that we're not dealing with a surprise situation here the presumption is that enemies are alert and aware and able to react to things. This question has come up before and is not one that has ever been resolved conclusively, but it should fall under the category of "unresolved questions about being hidden".
That is not dead which may eternal lie
I would be right there with you... if I could come up with a single difference between "being hidden" and "having the benefits of being hidden."  Are there drawbacks to being hidden that you somehow lose?  

This question is half-serious.  I may simply not be scrutinizing the interaction between the rules adequately, but what could possibly be considered the difference between "being hidden" and "having the benefits of being hidden"?
You wouldn't have any of the penalties of being hidden?
Yes, that's what I said.  

Perhaps it means, instead, that the benefit IS being hidden.   
You wouldn't have any of the penalties of being hidden?



There are no penalties for being Hidden.  There are only things that cause you to lose Hidden.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
No inherent penalties, but if there was a power "You get +20000000 damage against a hidden target" then that power wouldn't be effective :D

This is begging the question, BTW.
One thing that does seem debatable is exactly what the rule allowing you to retain the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action actually means. The rule appears to be intended to allow you to use something like Deft Strike, move, and attack with CA. It doesn't really seem to be intended to mean you actually are hidden during the action (assuming you say moved out of cover/concealment obviously). In other words I don't really think it is intended to for example force enemies to take a -5 penalty to attack you (with OAs generally) and not know what square you're in as you rush past them to hack their leader to death. Your target(s) grant you CA, that doesn't mean you're hidden from them. The RAW just says you 'retain the benefits', which certainly read straightly includes being hidden, but I'd seriously doubt that is the RAI.



The difference between "are Hidden" and "have the benefits of being Hidden" is not relevant, because, really, "not Hidden but have all the benefits of being Hidden until the end of this action" is exactly the same as "Hidden".

The benefits of Hidden include "invisible", which means no OAs.

So, yes, if you're Hidden from the bodyguards, you totally *can* rush right past them with no OAs.  You then become Visible when you're done your move.  Of course, if you move *and* attack in the same action, like Deft Strike or a Charge, you stay Hidden for the attack, too.

"Retaining the benefits of Hidden until the action is complete" is identical to "being Hidden until the action is complete".
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
This question is half-serious.  I may simply not be scrutinizing the interaction between the rules adequately, but what could possibly be considered the difference between "being hidden" and "having the benefits of being hidden"?


Potentially it could mean invisible and silent, but not mean undetectable.  I understand there isn't a particular reason to seperate those, but the reason it jumps out at me is the rules clearly state that when you are hidden you are invisible and silent.
This question is half-serious.  I may simply not be scrutinizing the interaction between the rules adequately, but what could possibly be considered the difference between "being hidden" and "having the benefits of being hidden"?


Potentially it could mean invisible and silent, but not mean undetectable.  I understand there isn't a particular reason to seperate those, but the reason it jumps out at me is the rules clearly state that when you are hidden you are invisible and silent.



One of the benefits of being Hidden is that people have to guess what square you're in.  So you *do* keep that until the end of the action.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Blinded however, is a condition that affects sight, but does not make the character Blind. Technically, with blinded, you can still see, you just see poorly (hence the -5), but nothing has happened to remove LOS to anything.

Blinded: "You can't see any target" (PH, p. 277).

"Blinded [condition]: While you are blinded, you can't see" (PH3, p. 220)

It's tough to get plainer than that.

Yes, you can still sense the locations of things when you can't see them, if they're not hidden, but being Blinded clearly means you can't see and you don't have LOS to anything.
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