DPR King Candidates 2.0

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In a related story, here are my DPR numbers for the Stormwarden at the other levels.

Level 6 DPR

Ability Scores:
Str 19, Con 13, Dex 17, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10

Feats:
Spiked Chain Training
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Expertise (Light Blades)
Weapon Focus (Light Blades)

Gear:
+1 Frost Spiked Chain
Iron Armbands of Power (Heroic Tier)
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (Heroic Tier)

Attack Bonus Sources:
+4 (Strength)
+3 (Levels)
+3 (Proficiency)
+1 (Weapon Expertise)
+1 enhancement (+1 weapon)

Damage Bonus Sources:
+4 (Strength)
+2 item (Iron Armbands of Power)
+1 (Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold)
+1 (Two-Weapon Fighting, main hand only)
+1 enhancement (+1 weapon)
+1 feat (Weapon Focus)

Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +12 vs. AC
Hit, Main Hand: 2d4+10 cold damage
Crit, Main Hand: 1d6+18 cold damage
Hit, Off Hand: 2d4+9 cold damage
Crit, Off Hand: 1d6+17 cold damage
Hunter’s Quarry: +1d6 cold damage

DPR: (0.60)*(15) + (0.05)*(21.5) + (0.60)*(14) + (0.05)*(20.5) + ([0.60]2 + 2*[0.35]*[0.60])*(3.5) + (1-[0.05]2)*(6) = 22.82 DPR


Level 12 DPR

Ability Scores:
Str 21, Con 14, Dex 19, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 11

Feats:
Lasting Frost
Prime Punisher
Spiked Chain Training
Swift Blade Style
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Expertise (Light Blades)
Weapon Focus (Light Blades)
Wintertouched

Gear:
+3 Frost Spiked Chain
Gloves of Ice (Paragon Tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (Heroic Tier)
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (Heroic Tier)

Attack Bonus Sources:
+6 (Levels)
+5 (Strength)
+3 (Proficiency)
+3 enhancement (+3 weapon)
+2 (Combat Advantage)
+1 (Prime Shot)
+1 (Weapon Expertise)

Damage Bonus Sources:
+5 (Strength)
+3 enhancement (+3 weapon)
+2 (Gloves of Ice)
+2 feat (Weapon Focus)
+2 item (Iron Armbands of Power)
+1 (Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold)
+1 (Two-Weapon Fighting, main hand only)

Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +20 vs. AC with CA (+21 vs. AC when no allies are adjacent)
Hit, Main Hand: 2d4+16 cold damage
Crit, Main Hand: 3d6+24 cold damage
Hit, Off Hand: 2d4+15 cold damage
Crit, Off Hand: 3d6+23 cold damage
Hunter’s Quarry: +2d6 cold damage
Swift Blade Style: 4 damage
Blade Storm: 4 damage

DPR:
(0.75)*(21) + (0.05)*(34.5) + (0.75)*(20) + (0.05)*(33.5) + (0.80)*(0.80)*(4) + ([0.75]2 + 2*[0.20]*[0.75])*(7) + (1-[0.05]2)*(12) + (4) = 47.92 DPR


Level 16 DPR

Ability Scores:
Str 22, Con 14, Dex 20, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 11

Feats:
Called Shot
Lasting Frost
Prime Punisher
Prime Quarry
Spiked Chain Training
Swift Blade Style
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Expertise (Light Blades)
Weapon Focus (Light Blades)
Wintertouched

Gear:
+3 Frost Spiked Chain
Gloves of Ice (Paragon Tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (Paragon Tier)
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (Paragon Tier)

Attack Bonus Sources:
+8 (Levels)
+6 (Strength)
+3 (Proficiency)
+3 enhancement (+3 weapon)
+2 (Combat Advantage)
+2 (Prime Shot)
+2 (Weapon Expertise)

Damage Bonus Sources:
+6 (Strength)
+5 (Called Shot)
+4 item (Iron Armbands of Power)
+3 (Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold)
+3 enhancement (+3 weapon)
+2 (Gloves of Ice)
+2 feat (Weapon Focus)
+1 (Two-Weapon Fighting, main hand only)

Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +24 vs. AC with CA (+26 vs. AC when no allies are adjacent)
Hit, Main Hand: 2d4+24 cold damage
Crit, Main Hand: 3d6+32 cold damage
Hit, Off Hand: 2d4+23 cold damage
Crit, Off Hand: 3d6+31 cold damage
Hunter’s Quarry: +2d6 cold damage
Swift Blade Style: 5 damage
Blade Storm: 5 damage
Twin-Blade Storm: 5 lightning damage to two targets

DPR: (0.80)*(29) + (0.05)*(42.5) + (0.80)*(28) + (0.05)*(41.5) + (0.85)*(0.85)*(5) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.15]*[0.80])*(7) + (1-[0.05]2)*(12) + (5) + (5) = 70.74 DPR, and 5.00 DPR to a secondary target


Level 24 DPR

Ability Scores:
Str 27, Con 15, Dex 25, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12

Feats:
Called Shot
Lasting Frost
Light Blade Mastery
Nimble Blade
Prime Hunter
Prime Punisher
Prime Quarry
Rending Tempest
Spiked Chain Training
Swift Blade Style
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Opening
Weapon Expertise (Light Blades)
Weapon Focus (Light Blades)
Wintertouched

Gear:
+5 Frost Spiked Chain
Gloves of Ice (Epic Tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (Paragon Tier)
Ring of Giants
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (Paragon Tier)

Attack Bonus Sources:
+12 (Levels)
+8 (Strength)
+5 enhancement (+5 weapon)
+3 (Proficiency)
+2 (Combat Advantage)
+2 (Prime Shot)
+2 (Weapon Expertise)
+1 (Nimble Blade)
+1 (Prime Hunter)

Damage Bonus Sources:
+10 (Ring of Giants, critical only)
+8 (Strength)
+5 (Called Shot)
+5 enhancement (+5 weapon)
+4 (Gloves of Ice)
+4 item (Iron Armbands of Power)
+3 (Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold)
+3 feat (Weapon Focus)
+1 (Two-Weapon Fighting, main hand only)

Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +33 vs. AC with CA (+36 vs. AC when no creatures are adjacent)
Hit, Main Hand: 4d4+33 cold damage
Crit, Main Hand: 5d6+59 cold damage
Hit, Off Hand: 4d4+32 cold damage
Crit, Off Hand: 5d6+58 cold damage
Basic Melee, Two-Weapon Opening: 6d4+40 cold damage
Basic Melee, Two-Weapon Opening, Critical: 5d6+74 damage
Hunter’s Quarry: +3d6 cold damage
Rending Tempest: +2d4 cold damage
Swift Blade Style: 7 damage
Blade Storm: 7 damage
Twin-Blade Storm: 7 lightning damage to two targets

DPR: (0.80)*(43) + (0.10)*(76.5) + (0.80)*(42) + (0.10)*(75.5) + (0.10)*(0.80)*(55) + (0.10)*(0.10)*(91.5) + (0.90)*(0.80)*(5) + (0.90)*(0.10)*(8) + (0.90)*(0.90)*(7) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) + (1-[0.10]2)*(18) + (7) + (7) = 124.33 DPR, and 7.00 DPR to a secondary target


Also, I'd like to point out that you have the Pit Fighter's L21 DPR labeled as its L30 DPR. The L30 DPR value is 93.62 DPR.


Quick question - how does this build get + Strength bonus to the damage rolls with Twin Strike?
i haw built a charging rogue whot is the criteria to be a candidate ?

can i asume combat advantage on a charge ?

whot is the limit for items?

if my calculations ar right and i use vanguard i off-hans and hew combat advantage on the charge and onely dameging items while boddied on a mounted bore the DPR is 44.575

but i dont know whot i can asume and all the rules



i hawe deslexia and english is not my maden languadge so excuse my spelling

please respond thanks
i haw built a charging rogue whot is the criteria to be a candidate ?

can i asume combat advantage on a charge ?

whot is the limit for items?

if my calculations ar right and i use vanguard i off-hans and hew combat advantage on the charge and onely dameging items while boddied on a mounted bore the DPR is 44.575

but i dont know whot i can asume and all the rules



i hawe deslexia and english is not my maden languadge so excuse my spelling

please respond thanks


You can assume Combat advantage, but your DPR will have a (CA) next to it signifying such.  The same with charging builds.  Unless you can explain how you are going to be charging the same target round after round w/o provoking an Opportunity attack you will have a (Ch) next to your DPR.
The limit for items is that the total gold does not exceed the total cost of a Level + 1 item, a level Item and 2x Level-1 items.
When you calculate your DPR please do a breakdown of where each of your bonuses are coming from.  That way we can help you find any errors you may have had.  Keep in mind that a level 6 rogue is going to have a hard time charging into combat advantage, but I am trying to be unbiased. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
ok i can dropp DPR for mor certen combat advantage and get items that help whut charge

i dont know eanything about mounted combat dos boot items benefit on mount

so att lv6 i can shop for not more then 6400
Does anyone have a rule to propose with support from intended average battle revenue or something like that so we can make a rule for ammunition?

Proposed General Rule:
* You must have purchased enough ammo to cover you for 160 rounds of combat.

Corollary:
* So if you're a ranger shooting 2 arrows a round, you'll need 320 magic ammo.

Rationale, and the Math:
D&D essentially assumes you replace 3 of your items every 5 levels (you have an item of your level +1, of your level, and of your level -1).  The items that you replace essentially make up the rest of your gold (your level -1).  This is because of the exponential curve in item prices as they level.

If you're using only ammunition, you can actually get away with just using a +1 bow with whatever enhancement you want on it.  So I think it's fair to consider ammo as one of your "3 items" you replace.

That means you need enough ammo to cover you for 5 levels.  On average, in D&D it takes 7-9 combat encounters to level up.  We'll say 8 encounters.  We'll assume 4 rounds per encounter (as average... some are much shorter, some are longer).  For 5 levels, that means you'll need 8*4*5=160 ammo.

Let's run some numbers to see if they're sane:
* At level 16, that means that if it's the equivalent of an item of your level (45k gold), you'd be able to afford 160 arrows that each cost 281 gold if you're shooting 1 arrow/round, or 320 arrows that each cost 140 gold if you're shooting 2 arrows/round.  That sounds correct to me.
human charging rogue

lv: 6

Race: Human +2 str +1 Feat

Str  20, Dex 17

Feature: Brutal  scaundrel (Str Mod on Sneak Attack)

Feats:
Backstabber, Surprising Charge, Mounted Combat, Vicious Advantage, Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)

Items:
Vanguard Dagger +1 (Book AV1), Mage´s Weapon Rapier +1(Book AV1), Horned Helm (Book PH1), Dire Boar (Book AV1),
Bracers of Mighty Striking (Book PH1), Boots of Adept Charging (Book AV1), Badge of the Berserker (AV2)

Charge whit  combat advantage
Attack: +16 vs AC
Hit: 1d8 + 1d8 + 1d8 + 2d8 +  1d6 + 13     
Breakdown:
Attack: 3 (lvl) + 5  (Str) + 1 (Ench)  + 3 (prof) + 2 (combat advantage) + 1  (charge)

Damage:1d8  (Weapon) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 2d8 (Backstabber  Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Horned Helm) + 5 (Str) + 5 (Str on Sneak Attack) + 1  (Ench) + 2 (Bracers of Mighty Striking)

16/20=0,8

Charge 0,8*39=31,2
Crit on Charge 0,05*62,5=3,125
Boar on charge make gore, +9 vs AC, 1d10 + 9, push 2 and knock prone (= 8.2 DPR (Ch)

31,2+3,125+8,2=42,525

and i hawe a party member that slows or emobilises targets whit Att-Will thear for Vicious Advantage if you dont nead that you can upp DPR

if you dont nead Vicious Advantage and Badge of the Berserker (AV2) tou can upp attack by +1 and damage by +1 ot damage by +3
borrowing ideas from RX, optimizing for DPR only.

Longtooth Shifter Brutal Rogue 6 
Str 20, Dex 17
feats:
Gorebrute Charge, WE, Surprising Charge, Mounted Combat
gear:
Vanguard Dagger +1, Horned Helm, Dire Boar, Bracers of Mighty Striking

Dagger MBA
Attack: +17 vs AC
Hit: 2d4 + 2d6 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 18        
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Str) + 1 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (class) + 1 (feat) + 2 (CA) + 1 (charge)
5 (Str) + 1 (Ench) + 5 (Str on SA) + 2 (bracers) + 2 (shifting) + 3 (gorebrute)
DPR (CA, Ch): (0.85*38)+(0.05*56.5) + 8.2 = 43.325

RX also remebered me boars knock prone and another build was born, letting boar knock them prone and then...
hit them with Headman's Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop!

Longtooth Shifter Ranger 6
 
Str 20, Wis 18
Running Attack
feats:

Gorebrute Charge, Headman's Chop, WE, Mounted Combat
gear:
Mage's Fullblade +2, Horned Helm, Dire Boar

Fullblade Marauder's Rush
Attack: +16 vs AC
Hit: 1d12 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 18.5        
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Str) + 2 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (feat) + 1 (class) + 1 (charge)
5 (Str) + 4 (Wis) + 2 (Ench) + 2 (shifting) + 3 (gorebrute) + 2.5 (headman's)

you let your boar attack first, and with it's 50% hit rate, you get 2.5 out of Headman's Crop
DPR (Ch): (0.8*32)+(0.05*56) + 8.2 = 36.6[/sblock]
now, boar knocking prone also means all builds with it get CA 50% of the time, but since everybody forgot about it, I left it out.
Here's another build to consider - a Level 30 Warlock.  Nothing too fancy here - just a Warlock exploiting radiant damage and hellish rebuke.

Attack: +36
Damage: 7d6+42 (average 69.05 with Ring of the Radiant Storm)
Critical: 42+42+12+9d6 (average 130.39 with Ring of the Radiant Storm)

Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
Initial DPR = (.25 * 0) + (.60 * 69.05) + (.15 * 130.39) = 60.9885

I can automatically trigger the secondary damage of Hellish Rebuke with the off-hand Shadowrift Blade.  If I get all the same modifiers on the secondary damage (which I assume I do, but I'm not 100% sure), then I can just double the damage:

Final DPR = 121.977

That doesn't include any potential damage from White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte.  I wasn't sure how to calculate that, and with the damage dealt above I doubt an enemy would choose to incur another shot.

Attack, Damage, and Critical details:
Show

+8 Con, +15 Level, +6 Enhancement, +3 Expertise, +1 Superior, +2 Combat Advantage, +1 Nimble Blade

2d6 Hellish Rebuke, +8 Con, +6 Enhancement, +3 Dual, +3 Focus, +3d6+7 Curse, +7 CA (Radiant One), +6 Radiant Weapon, +2d6 CA (Hands of Hadar), +2 Radiant Set

Critical 18-20 Range, Radiant Dagger +6d6, Executioner's Bracers +3d6, Ring of Giants +12

*Note - I used someone's suggestion in this thread regarding anydice.com to calculate the effects of the Ring of the Radiant Storm on damage (since it allows you to roll the damage dice twice and keep the higher result).


Here's the build itself - Human Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One:
Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
HW2, level 30
Human, Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One
Build: Scourge Warlock
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Star Pact
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade group)
Twofold Pact: Vestige Pact
Background: Buried Alive (Dark) (Endurance class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 15, Int 24, Wis 12, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 11.


AC: 42 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 42
HP: 183 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +28, Religion +27, Insight +21, History +27, Arcana +27

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16, Intimidate +16, Nature +16, Perception +16, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17, Athletics +15

FEATS
Human: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 1: Bloodied Boon
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: White Lotus Riposte
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 10: Superior Implement Training (Accurate dagger)
Level 11: Reserve Maneuver
Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 14: Relentless Curse
Level 16: Twofold Curse
Level 18: Twofold Pact
Level 20: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 21: Epic Will
Level 22: Warding Curse
Level 24: Nimble Blade
Level 26: Student of the Athanaeum
Level 28: Cursed Spells
Level 30: Epic Resurgence

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Eyes of the Vestige (retrained to Hellish Rebuke at Level 12)
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Reserve Maneuver: Fortune Binding
Warlock encounter 1: Chains of Levistus
Warlock daily 1: Flames of Phlegethos
Warlock utility 2: Ethereal Stride
Warlock encounter 3: Frigid Darkness
Warlock daily 5: Vestige of Ugar
Warlock utility 6: Grit and Spittle
Warlock encounter 7: Mordant Rains of Dis
Warlock daily 9: Feast of Souls (retrained to Vestige of the Onyx Queen at Level 13)
Warlock utility 10: Reactive Surge
Warlock encounter 13: Killing Flames (replaces Chains of Levistus)
Warlock daily 15: Tendrils of Thuban (replaces Flames of Phlegethos)
Warlock utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Warlock encounter 17: Life Force Reclaimed (replaces Frigid Darkness)
Warlock daily 19: Vestige of Kronata (replaces Vestige of Ugar)
Warlock utility 22: Painful Transference
Warlock encounter 23: Starless Void (replaces Mordant Rains of Dis)
Warlock daily 25: Thirteen Baleful Stars (replaces Vestige of the Onyx Queen)
Warlock encounter 27: Shattering of the Sword (replaces Killing Flames)
Warlock daily 29: Doom of Delban (replaces Tendrils of Thuban)

ITEMS
Shadow Warlock Starleather Armor +6, Hands of Hadar (epic tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Cloak of Distortion +6, Radiant Accurate dagger +6, Executioner's Bracers (epic tier), Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Shadowrift Blade Accurate dagger +3, Belt of Breaching (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Please let me know if I made any mistakes in the DPR calculations.


@borg285 - One more bump for a build of mine to consider for level 30.  Thanks!
Magic Dagger +2, Vanguard Dagger +1, Horned Helm, Dire Boar

Vanguard in off-hand and not part of the attack?  This seems to bump up against the AV rule, page 56.

I don't want to start a rules discussion on this topic (again ;)), so I'll just say that we need another label for this.



The thing to remember is that you don't need +6 Dual Arrows. +4s do just fine. Dual Arrows are always a funny case.

For other Ammo you're probably right.
The thing to remember is that you don't need +6 Dual Arrows. +4s do just fine. Dual Arrows are always a funny case.

For other Ammo you're probably right.

Just to clarify, were you replying to this?

Proposed General Rule:
* You must have purchased enough ammo to cover you for 160 rounds of combat.

Corollary:
* So if you're a ranger shooting 2 arrows a round, you'll need 320 magic ammo.

If so, do you think it's a good general rule?

And yeah, the last time I did the math, it was still advantageous to use ammo that was 2 "enhancements" below your level if you're using Dual Arrows

Magic Dagger +2, Vanguard Dagger +1, Horned Helm, Dire Boar

Vanguard in off-hand and not part of the attack?  This seems to bump up against the AV rule, page 56.

I don't want to start a rules discussion on this topic (again ;)), so I'll just say that we need another label for this.

I reread the rule, and for the first time (and I reread it every time this came up, so that means something), I see it. it says right there it doesn't work.
after talking a bit about it on ##4e (epic thing btw, the one that came up with that should get a medal), I traced my mistake back to reckless and bloodclaw (which were powers), and when everybody was double-enchantment-dipping; my memory and those few that still using it did the rest.

so that's it. I will be editing all my build with this new understanding. I'll be editing into this post changes in their DPR, as well as fixing actual posts. I would also call to more strongly mark all builds currently having (5) cheese marker, as we were actually cheating.

also, last errata killed all builds that were using Subtle with bracers/armbands, including one of my rogues. he's update will also be included in this post.

EDIT:
34.64 DPR (Ch) Longtooth Shifter Charging Avenger (6th) by tl (@)
30.00 DPR (CA) Bugbear Brutal Rogue (6th), by tl (@)
41.33 DPR (Ch, Mount) Longtooth Shifter Avenger (6th), by tl (@)
38.02 DPR (Ch, Mount) Dragonborn Warlock (6th), by tl ()
32.75 DPR (Ch) Dragonborn Melee Warlock (6th) by tl ()

please remove this entry from the list. it wasn't doing good to begin with, and I can't find anything decent to do with it.
23.16 DPR Dragonborn Warlock (6th) by tl

EDIT2: so that's that with the edit. took me a few hours, all builds dropped by a few point (except the Melee Warlock, I improved on him, but he wasn't dualwielding to begin with) and the sun is up for about an hour...
The thing to remember is that you don't need +6 Dual Arrows. +4s do just fine. Dual Arrows are always a funny case.

For other Ammo you're probably right.

Just to clarify, were you replying to this?

Proposed General Rule:
* You must have purchased enough ammo to cover you for 160 rounds of combat.

Corollary:
* So if you're a ranger shooting 2 arrows a round, you'll need 320 magic ammo.

If so, do you think it's a good general rule?

And yeah, the last time I did the math, it was still advantageous to use ammo that was 2 "enhancements" below your level if you're using Dual Arrows




I was replying to that.

Where are you getting 160 rounds? How many rounds are you anticipating per combat (which I assume you've multiplied by combats per level)? Also how many attacks do you anticipate per round? Twin Strike is two attacks, but then you can factor in minor action attacks, immediate actions, in rare cases opportunity actions (such as with a sharpshooter with a beast companion). Or you could use a burst attack, or multi-class and pick up a blast (such as with rogue). It would be good to see the underpinnings of your numbers.

I was replying to that.

Where are you getting 160 rounds? How many rounds are you anticipating per combat (which I assume you've multiplied by combats per level)? Also how many attacks do you anticipate per round? Twin Strike is two attacks, but then you can factor in minor action attacks, immediate actions, in rare cases opportunity actions (such as with a sharpshooter with a beast companion). Or you could use a burst attack, or multi-class and pick up a blast (such as with rogue). It would be good to see the underpinnings of your numbers.



He said to assume 4 rounds per combat, 8 combats per level, 5 levels per 'refill'.

4 * 8 * 5 = 160

The amount of ammo used per round would be character-dependent, as you point out, which is why he phrased it in terms of rounds, not in terms of attacks :-p  Being able to fill your ammo needs for 160 rounds is attack-independent; you'd need 320 arrows if you're spamming twin strike, only 160 arrows if you're using a single attack, and only 80 arrows if you're a lazy warlord attacking every other round.

The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.

The amount of ammo used per round would be character-dependent, as you point out, which is why he phrased it in terms of rounds, not in terms of attacks :-p  Being able to fill your ammo needs for 160 rounds is attack-independent; you'd need 320 arrows if you're spamming twin strike, only 160 arrows if you're using a single attack, and only 80 arrows if you're a lazy warlord attacking every other round.




Except attacks per round are vital to determining the re-fill because it produces a heavy impact on cost if you're putting out 3-4 attacks per round for 160 rounds while another character is making 1-2 attacks per round for the same 160 rounds. As you yourself say, the number of arrows you need varies based on attacks (320-160-80).

The other issue is in role (not the strict game term). Why bother getting enough for 160 rounds if you don't intend to use the special ammunition for an at-will attack, but are considering that encounter DPR is a product of at-wills, encounter powers, and, to an extent, daily powers (averaging out their effect, as an increase over an alternate attack power that would be used with the same action in other encounters, over encounters per day).

Except attacks per round are vital to determining the re-fill because it produces a heavy impact on cost if you're putting out 3-4 attacks per round for 160 rounds while another character is making 1-2 attacks per round for the same 160 rounds. As you yourself say, the number of arrows you need varies based on attacks (320-160-80).



Um.

You don't seem to understand the concept here.  Why don't you try it again.

Of course it costs a different amount.  That's because it costs a different amount.

The other issue is in role (not the strict game term). Why bother getting enough for 160 rounds if you don't intend to use the special ammunition for an at-will attack, but are considering that encounter DPR is a product of at-wills, encounter powers, and, to an extent, daily powers (averaging out their effect, as an increase over an alternate attack power that would be used with the same action in other encounters, over encounters per day).



Since the question was about using ammo in an at-will DPR calculation, yes, the question at hand assumes you're using it for an at-will attack.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Except attacks per round are vital to determining the re-fill... snip ... Why bother getting enough for 160 rounds if you don't intend to use the special ammunition for an at-will attack, but are considering that encounter DPR is a product of at-wills, encounter powers, and, to an extent, daily powers ... snip ...

Agree with everything you say.

This is in the context of ChapOp, specifically this thread.  Many of the DPR builds in this thread, for simplicity, assume only at-will powers.  Almost all of them do, except for those that are nova builds and a few odd others

The question came up: What is a good rule of thumb for the number of ammo that you need in order to do a CharOp DPR build?

CharOp (mostly) assumes the DMG rules for wealth, so wealth is a very real constraint.  It wouldn't be fair to assume that a 6th level build for instance can use +2 dual arrows every round for Twin Strike.  So naturally the question is what is fair?  If you buy 30 ammo, would that be enough?  What about 300?

The observation I made is that every 5 levels you essentially get enough wealth (or its equivalent) to purchase 3 new items.  For a ranged PC using ammo the wealth that would otherwise go towards one of the 3 new items can instead go towards paying for ammo.  But how much ammo is enough to hold you over until you naturally acquire more gold, and hence can use ammo indefinetly?  What is the "sweet spot", at what point do you reach a sustainable amount?

That's why it's listed in rounds, with 160 rounds being 5 levels.  The build itself will dictate how many arrows will be needed.  If your DPR King build is only attacking once a round, then you only need to purchase 160 ammo.  If your DPR King build is attacking 5 times a round somehow, then you'd have to purchase 800 ammo.  If you have less than this amount, then you'll run out of arrows before your next "refill".  (Note that "refills" are abstract, and gold is actually gained gradually -- it just simplifies the math.)

As to it applying to actual play, I think it works as well.  Look at your actual play, see what the average is for how much ammo you use per round, and then that gives you a rough idea of the type of ammo you can afford.  If you're on average attacking 2 times a round, and you're currently 16th level, then you can afford to buy ammo that costs 140 gold each.
 45kgp (price of a 16th level item) / 160 rds / 2 atks = 140 gold each

By the time you're close to running out of ammo, you'll have gained enough gold from adventuring that you can replenish your ammo (at a higher enhancement in fact) and still be able to keep upgrading the rest of your equipment.  That's what I mean by sustainable.

Incidentally, Mellored-- seeing that name had me laughing like you wouldn't believe. Well played, sir.

/tip hat




Yea, i realise it's cheezy, and obviously wouldn't play it (not like it can be played below 24), but i wanted to toss out my "revenant deva + potent rebirth + restless dead + charm of life for +4 to hit" trick.  Might be usefull for someone else.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

turns out Rogues make excellent chargers even without mounts

Longtooth Shifter Brutal Rogue 6 
Str 20, Dex 17
feats:
Gorebrute Charge, WE, Surprising Charge, Backstabber
gear:
Vanguard Dagger +2, Horned Helm, Bracers of Mighty Striking

Dagger MBA
Attack: +18 vs AC
Hit: 2d4 + 2d8 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 19        
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Str) + 2 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (class) + 1 (feat) + 2 (CA) + 1 (charge)
5 (Str) + 2 (Ench) + 5 (Str on SA) + 2 (bracers) + 2 (shifting) + 3 (gorebrute)
DPR (CA, Ch): (0.9*41)+(0.05*66) = 40.2
as I was going through my DPR Kings notes, I found a bunch of Rogue hybrid builds already made... it was really weird as I don't remember making them (revision history says they're 5 months old). even the comment on the build was already there...  this is a copy-paste:

in the process of preparing for the Brothers DPR sister-thread, I found him:

Bugbear Rogue|Swordmage 1
16 Str, 20 Dex
Spiked Chain Mastery

Spiked Chain Riposte Strike
Attack: +10 vs AC
Hit: 2d6 + 2d6 + 5
    secondary attack: +6 vs AC
    hit: 2d6 + 3
DPR (CA): 0.75*19 + 0.05*29 + 0.8*(0.55*10 + 0.05*15) = 20.7

and his two older brothers: (there were actually three 6th level builds, but other two didn't work (I was trying to Sly flourish with Drow Long knife with one and other was Subtle+Armbands))

Bugbear Brutal Rogue|Swordmage 6
Dex 20, Str 18
feats:
Versatile Duelist, Urikite Staff Practice, WE, Hybrid
gear:
Battlecrazed Longsword +2, Iron Armbands of Power

Longsword Riposte Strike
Attack: +16 vs AC
Hit: 1d10 + 2d6 + 1d6 + 14
   secondary attack: +13 vs AC
   hit: 1d10 + 1d6 + 12        
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (feat) + 2 (CA)
5 (Dex) + 2 (Ench) + 4 (Str on SA) + 1 (versatile) + 2 (Bracers)

3 (lvl) + 4 (Str) + 2 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (feat)
4 (Str) + 2 (Ench) + 1 (versatile) + 2 (Bracers) + 3 (Urikite)

DPR (CA): 0.8*(30+0.85*0.3*3) + 0.05*(49+0.85*0.3*3) + 0.85*(0.65*21+ 0.05*35) = 40.19025 (CA)        
Urikite
if we hit with the riposte strike, next attack before EoNT that hits same target gets 3 to damage. all nice and dandy if actual riposte hits, but there's a chance Riposte Strike hit (0.85) and interrupt didn't (0.3), meaning we'd get +3 to damage with the next round's Riposte Strike

Riposte Strike is from DSCS
if vanguart is main hand and you dont need Vicious Advantage

lv: 6

Race: Human +2 str +1 Feat

Str  20, Dex 17

Feature: Brutal  scaundrel (Str Mod on Sneak Attack)

Feats:
Backstabber, Surprising  Charge, Mounted Combat, Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)

Items:
Vanguard Rapier +1 (Book AV1), Horned Helm (Book PH1), Dire Boar (Book   AV1),
Bracers of Mighty Striking (Book PH1), Boots of Adept Charging (Book  AV1), Badge of the Berserker (AV2)

Charge whit  combat advantage
Attack: +16 vs AC
Hit: 1d8 + 1d8 +  1d8 + 2d8 +  1d6 + 13     
Breakdown:
Attack: 3 (lvl) + 5   (Str) + 1 (Ench)  + 3 (prof) + 2 (combat advantage) + 1  (charge) +1 (Weapon Expertise Light Blade)

Damage:1d8   (Weapon) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 2d8 (Backstabber   Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Horned Helm) + 5 (Str) + 5 (Str on Sneak Attack) +  1  (Ench) + 2 (Bracers of Mighty Striking)

16/20=0,8

Charge 0,8*39=31,2
Crit on Charge 0,05*63,5=3,175
Boar on charge make gore, +9 vs AC, 1d10 + 9, push 2 and  knock prone (= 8.2 DPR (Ch)

31,2+3,175+8,2=42,575


i an trying not to use D magasines sens im not aloud to use them in my game and tear probobly mor out tear
31,2+3,125+8,2=42,575

nice. you managed to lose offhand vanguard without any loss in DPR. but I have to disappoint you a little... you didn't gain any either. it should be 42.525, as with the last build. that addition is wrong.

was it ?
mage weapon is 1d6 crit and vanguard is 1d8
Crit on Charge 0,05*62,5=3,175

True, I didn't thought of that. but you still have an error; your crit damage is 63.5. (5*8 + 6 + 13 + 1d8)

Corwynn - thanks for coming up with that rule of thumb.  I feel that it's excessive, but that's because one thing I've never really thought about in depth is the monetary system.  That being said:  3 items every 5 levels? And presumably your old items make up the slush fund that's expected at any given point?  (specifically, the gold = item of level -1)  That makes it brutal! Brutal!  To keep up with ammo expenditure.  My build would need approximately.. 600 arrows at level 21, which is just too expensive!  Similarly, it would need about 200 arrows at level 6; but I currently only planned on having 60.  I had thought having 180-300 arrows after level 16 would be enough, but not if I need to cover 5 levels.

With that being said, as with things like daily power recharge, my build is probably going to do something incredibly silly and actually go through a level by level wealth accumulation, and show when and how I get all my arrows, so that I can justify having a lower number than you suggest.  Level 6 will still probably get shafted (in every sense of the word.)

Of course, this also will fit the build somewhat, as I'm aiming at having a playable build from 1-30, who gets DPR King worthy at key points (level 6/12ish/16/21/28).  She won't be the best at any given level, but she'll certainly try.  Although, level 30 will be sad, as it will be worse than level 28, and even the ED feature won't offer anything whatsoever to her.  (Yeah, I know, one of my builds and it has a completely useless level 30 feature.)
Corwynn - thanks for coming up with that rule of thumb.

No problem, glad you liked it.

That being said:  3 items every 5 levels? And presumably your old items make up the slush fund that's expected at any given point?  (specifically, the gold = item of level -1)

Yep, correct.

With that being said, as with things like daily power recharge, my build is probably going to do something incredibly silly and actually go through a level by level wealth accumulation, and show when and how I get all my arrows, so that I can justify having a lower number than you suggest.  Level 6 will still probably get shafted (in every sense of the word.)

Sounds fair.  To save you some time, someone already did a level by level wealth accumulation.  It should still be in the forums somewhere if you can dig it up.  And you do up with a bit more gold than what the DMG states.  However, I think the DMG assumes that there are some one-type costs for PCs (ritual components, potions, bribes, lodging, resurrecting team-mates) that otherwise aren't taken into account.
Here's another build to consider - a Level 30 Warlock.  Nothing too fancy here - just a Warlock exploiting radiant damage and hellish rebuke.

Attack: +36
Damage: 7d6+42 (average 69.05 with Ring of the Radiant Storm)
Critical: 42+42+12+9d6 (average 130.39 with Ring of the Radiant Storm)

Target Reflex = 42 (Monster NAD: 12+level)
Initial DPR = (.25 * 0) + (.60 * 69.05) + (.15 * 130.39) = 60.9885

I can automatically trigger the secondary damage of Hellish Rebuke with the off-hand Shadowrift Blade.  If I get all the same modifiers on the secondary damage (which I assume I do, but I'm not 100% sure), then I can just double the damage:

Final DPR = 121.977

That doesn't include any potential damage from White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte.  I wasn't sure how to calculate that, and with the damage dealt above I doubt an enemy would choose to incur another shot.

Attack, Damage, and Critical details:
Show

+8 Con, +15 Level, +6 Enhancement, +3 Expertise, +1 Superior, +2 Combat Advantage, +1 Nimble Blade

2d6 Hellish Rebuke, +8 Con, +6 Enhancement, +3 Dual, +3 Focus, +3d6+7 Curse, +7 CA (Radiant One), +6 Radiant Weapon, +2d6 CA (Hands of Hadar), +2 Radiant Set

Critical 18-20 Range, Radiant Dagger +6d6, Executioner's Bracers +3d6, Ring of Giants +12

*Note - I used someone's suggestion in this thread regarding anydice.com to calculate the effects of the Ring of the Radiant Storm on damage (since it allows you to roll the damage dice twice and keep the higher result).


Here's the build itself - Human Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One:
Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
HW2, level 30
Human, Warlock, Student of Caiphon, Radiant One
Build: Scourge Warlock
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Star Pact
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade group)
Twofold Pact: Vestige Pact
Background: Buried Alive (Dark) (Endurance class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 15, Int 24, Wis 12, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 11.


AC: 42 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 42
HP: 183 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +28, Religion +27, Insight +21, History +27, Arcana +27

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16, Intimidate +16, Nature +16, Perception +16, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17, Athletics +15

FEATS
Human: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 1: Bloodied Boon
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: White Lotus Riposte
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 10: Superior Implement Training (Accurate dagger)
Level 11: Reserve Maneuver
Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 14: Relentless Curse
Level 16: Twofold Curse
Level 18: Twofold Pact
Level 20: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 21: Epic Will
Level 22: Warding Curse
Level 24: Nimble Blade
Level 26: Student of the Athanaeum
Level 28: Cursed Spells
Level 30: Epic Resurgence

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Eyes of the Vestige (retrained to Hellish Rebuke at Level 12)
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Reserve Maneuver: Fortune Binding
Warlock encounter 1: Chains of Levistus
Warlock daily 1: Flames of Phlegethos
Warlock utility 2: Ethereal Stride
Warlock encounter 3: Frigid Darkness
Warlock daily 5: Vestige of Ugar
Warlock utility 6: Grit and Spittle
Warlock encounter 7: Mordant Rains of Dis
Warlock daily 9: Feast of Souls (retrained to Vestige of the Onyx Queen at Level 13)
Warlock utility 10: Reactive Surge
Warlock encounter 13: Killing Flames (replaces Chains of Levistus)
Warlock daily 15: Tendrils of Thuban (replaces Flames of Phlegethos)
Warlock utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Warlock encounter 17: Life Force Reclaimed (replaces Frigid Darkness)
Warlock daily 19: Vestige of Kronata (replaces Vestige of Ugar)
Warlock utility 22: Painful Transference
Warlock encounter 23: Starless Void (replaces Mordant Rains of Dis)
Warlock daily 25: Thirteen Baleful Stars (replaces Vestige of the Onyx Queen)
Warlock encounter 27: Shattering of the Sword (replaces Killing Flames)
Warlock daily 29: Doom of Delban (replaces Tendrils of Thuban)

ITEMS
Shadow Warlock Starleather Armor +6, Hands of Hadar (epic tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Cloak of Distortion +6, Radiant Accurate dagger +6, Executioner's Bracers (epic tier), Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Eye of Awareness (epic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Shadowrift Blade Accurate dagger +3, Belt of Breaching (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Please let me know if I made any mistakes in the DPR calculations.


@borg285 - One more bump for a build of mine to consider for level 30.  Thanks!



The calculations look good...but I am having the same question on which damage specifically applies to the rebuke (example...damage types applied to the original hit vs fire only damage)...I will take that question over the the Rules forum.
Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities. Psalm 141:5 Let the Righteous smite me...Infernal Warlock Build Red Sun Legionnaire...Paladin/Warlock Hybrid Build
updated.  Please tell me if I got something wrong.  the "last updated" sblock should be accurate.  

@RX-75: please use the post that is linked with your candidate when making any updates. This will help me when you make modifications.  Simply post a reply on this thread quoting your new DPR and I can simply update it instead of recreating the link for all entries of your candidate.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
i am lookilg it over
Ugh - even with level by level wealth, ammunition is ridiculously expensive.  In fact, it's so expensive, LDB would never even consider it - I have to sacrifice my armour/neck enhancement just to stay within 2 points of enhancement of where a 'normal' character would be.  I'm going to end up with a character with 44/35/39/39 or some such silliness for defenses.
is it so that you can get eany items you wont in your price range?
att lv 6 is it corect that i haw 6400 to spend?
in that cate gan i get a lv 10 item for 5000 if i wonted to?
is it so that you can get eany items you wont in your price range?
att lv 6 is it corect that i haw 6400 to spend?
in that cate gan i get a lv 10 item for 5000 if i wonted to?

yes, that is correct. on the side note, Talon Amulet and Bracers are both item bonus to damage; they don't stack

Ugh - even with level by level wealth, ammunition is ridiculously expensive.

Especially if you're attacking 5 times a round, like it sounds you were ;)

Well, in good news, it sounds like ammo is balanced. Even though their DPR is lower, I've never felt bad about ranged rangers. Being able to attack at 40 squares away, being able to kite, no negative effect against fliers, shooting running enemies, never losing attacks to immobilize/slow/positioning, being able to pick any target on the battlefield with relative impunity (including the squishies and casters in the back) and still not being that bad in the damage department...

The versatility makes up for the sub-par damage imho.
yes, that is correct. on the side note, Talon Amulet and Bracers are both item bonus to damage; they don't stack




sorry the time was 02:30 hear
i forgot
is it so that you can get eany items you wont in your price range?
att lv 6 is it corect that i haw 6400 to spend?
in that cate gan i get a lv 10 item for 5000 if i wonted to?


Typically here you cannot have an item above Level + 1, but that is mostly there so your defenses are reasonable.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I thought I might throw up an alternate level 16 Hellish Rebuke Warlock. This build is similar to Landsknecht73's build, but uses Revenant Teifling and doesn't require Prime Shot for the damage. The equipment is based on gp value of level +1, level, level -1 items. If it were treasure parcel based, it is likely that the defenses wouldn't tank so badly.

Total DPR: 89.59

Cheese: @


[spoiler DPR calcs]
Chance to have hit last round: 0.94 (1 - (0.05 + (0.05x0.1)))

To-Hit: +23(26) to hit Ref 28

+7 Constitution
+8 Half-level
+4 Enhancement
+2 Expertise
+1 Hellfire Blood
+1 Incendiary Dagger
(+2 Combat Advantage - near certain from Shadow Warlock Armour)
(+1 Arcane Underpinning - applies 94% of the time)

Initial and Rebuke Damage: 1d6 + 31 (35) fire and cold damage (38.5)
Crit: 4d6 + 41 fire and cold damage (55)


+7 Constitution
+4 Enhancement
+3 Off-hand Enhancement
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Blood Pact of Cania
+1 Hellfire Blood
+3 Fundamental Mastery
+3 Dragonshard
+3 Incendiary Dagger
+2 Gloves of Ice
(+4 Subtle Dagger - near certain from Shadow Warlock Armour)

Cold Vulnerability - 5 (applies 94% of the time and to every rebuke)

Curse: 2d6 (7)
Crit: 12



Total DPR:
0.94 x (0.9 x (38.5 + 7 + 5 + 38.5 + 5) + 0.05 x (55 + 12 + 5 + 38.5 + 5)) + 0.06 x (0.85 x (38.5 + 7 + 38.5 + 5) + 0.05 x (55 + 12 + 38.5 + 5))
= 89.59
[/spoiler]

[spoiler Build]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Rebuke Cold, level 16
Revenant, Warlock, Academy Master
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade group)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling
Arcane Admixture Power: Hellish Rebuke

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 24, Dex 19, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 18, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13.

AC: 27 Fort: 28 Reflex: 27 Will: 24
HP: 111 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +13, Thievery +17, Bluff +15, Intimidate +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Arcana +10, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +17, Heal +8, History +8, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +12, Streetwise +10, Athletics +7

FEATS
Level 1: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 6: Blood Pact of Cania
Level 8: Hellfire Blood
Level 10: Bloodied Boon
Level 11: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 12: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 14: Arcane Admixture
Level 16: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke

ITEMS
Shadowrift Blade Dagger +3, Shadow Warlock Drowmesh +3, Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth (paragon tier), Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Subtle Incendiary dagger +4, Amulet of Protection +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[/spoiler]

EDIT: Corrected a slight mis-calculation, DPR is actually 0.25 points lower

I thought I might throw up an alternate level 16 Hellish Rebuke Warlock. This build is similar to Landsknecht73's build, but uses Revenant Teifling and doesn't require Prime Shot for the damage. The equipment is based on gp value of level +1, level, level -1 items. If it were treasure parcel based, it is likely that the defenses wouldn't tank so badly.

Total DPR: 89.84

Cheese: @


[spoiler DPR calcs]
Chance to have hit last round: 0.94 (1 - (0.05 + (0.05x0.1)))

To-Hit: +23(26) to hit Ref 28

+7 Constitution
+8 Half-level
+4 Enhancement
+2 Expertise
+1 Hellfire Blood
+1 Incendiary Dagger
(+2 Combat Advantage - near certain from Shadow Warlock Armour)
(+1 Arcane Underpinning - applies 94% of the time)

Initial and Rebuke Damage: 1d6 + 31 (35) fire and cold damage (38.5)
Crit: 4d6 + 41 fire and cold damage (55)


+7 Constitution
+4 Enhancement
+3 Off-hand Enhancement
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Blood Pact of Cania
+1 Hellfire Blood
+3 Fundamental Mastery
+3 Dragonshard
+3 Incendiary Dagger
+2 Gloves of Ice
(+4 Subtle Dagger - near certain from Shadow Warlock Armour)

Cold Vulnerability - 5 (applies 94% of the time and to every rebuke)

Curse: 2d6 (7)
Crit: 12



Total DPR:
0.94 x (0.9 x (38.5 + 7 + 5 + 38.5 + 5) + 0.05 x (55 + 12 + 5 + 38.5 + 5)) + 0.06 x (0.85 x (38.5 + 7 + 38.5 + 5) + 0.05 x (55 + 12 + 38.5 + 5))
= 89.84
[/spoiler]

[spoiler Build]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Rebuke Cold, level 16
Revenant, Warlock, Academy Master
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade group)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Rod)
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling
Arcane Admixture Power: Hellish Rebuke

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 24, Dex 19, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 18, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13.

AC: 27 Fort: 28 Reflex: 27 Will: 24
HP: 111 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +13, Thievery +17, Bluff +15, Intimidate +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Arcana +10, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +17, Heal +8, History +8, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +12, Streetwise +10, Athletics +7

FEATS
Level 1: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 6: Blood Pact of Cania
Level 8: Hellfire Blood
Level 10: Bloodied Boon
Level 11: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 12: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 14: Arcane Admixture
Level 16: Lasting Frost

POWERS
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke

ITEMS
Shadowrift Blade Dagger +3, Shadow Warlock Drowmesh +3, Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth (paragon tier), Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Subtle Incendiary dagger +4, Amulet of Protection +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[/spoiler]





I like...I am still working on clarifying what damage carries over to the rebuke...I am not sure on the lasting frost (power says fire damage and I am not sure if the cold damage type remains) or subtle since the rebuke damage is not dependent on CA.  There is another thread in the Rules forum onging about this very thing.
Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities. Psalm 141:5 Let the Righteous smite me...Infernal Warlock Build Red Sun Legionnaire...Paladin/Warlock Hybrid Build

I like...I am still working on clarifying what damage carries over to the rebuke...I am not sure on the lasting frost (power says fire damage and I am not sure if the cold damage type remains) or subtle since the rebuke damage is not dependent on CA.  There is another thread in the Rules forum onging about this very thing.



I can see why subtle might be contentious, but if we consider that the rebuke damage receives enhancement bonuses then there is no reason why it shouldn't apply. If it gets enhancement bonuses, then you are clearly 'making a damage roll with this weapon', the combat advantage is no issue at all since Shadow Warlock armour means that the curse target always grants combat advantage, thus satisfying the 'damage roll... against an enemy granting combat advantage'.

The rebuke damage should become fire and cold damage as Arcane Admixture clearly states 'The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type', this is cannot be exclusive to the initial damage, as otherwise arcane admixture would not work on zones or summons.


Can you think of any other tweaks? I would like to see this think take top place at level 16. (Ok, you can replace Bloodied Boon with Two-Weapon Fighting, or completely tank AC to get Kensai as a paragon path to get above 90 DPR, but the build needs to be at least semi-playable... (or does it?))

On an off note, Two-Weapon Fighting increases the DPR to 91.48...

Laz
I thought this had been done already, but apparently not:

Warlock (MC Ranger)/Lyrander Windrider/demigod
Eldritch Strike
Arcane admixture: Thunder, Cold
Permafrost
Thundergod Weapon
Horned Helm
Prime Punisher
Called Shot
Prime whatever that gives you an extra to-hit
Greatspear
Surprising Charge

To-Hit:
15 -half level
10 -Con
1 -Lyrander Windrider
3 -Proficiency
6 -enh
2 - CA
2 -Prime Junk
1 -Charge

+40 v AC, AC@30=30+14=44, crit 19-20
Crit Rate= 10%
Hit-Rate=75%
Miss= 15%


Damage:
10 -Con
10 -Lyrander Windrider
5 - Cold Vuln
5 - Called Shot
6 - IAoP
5 - Dragon Shard
4 - Gloves of Ice
+3d6 Curse
+3d6 Helm
+2d6 Thundergod
+2d10 Weapon
+1d10 Surprising Charge
Hit=89.5
Crit=123+6d6 (excludes rings and +crit junk)=144

DPR=(.15*0)+(.75*89.5)+(.1*144)=81.125


Two things:
1) I have not fully fleshed this out so I don't know if it's reasonable to meet all the requisites for all feats and build parts.
2) There are a lot of ways to up this damage including but not limited to Revenant Longtooth Shifter for 2 more damage and regen, +crit junk. Can anyone offer some help in fine tuning this?
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