Modularity: A Guide to CO Tricks and Tactics

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Add in Dual arrows for bow/xbow/sling users, but mention that they are only cheap enough(+2 version) to spam in early paragon.



huh? I thought they are only cheap enough to spam in late paragon and epic (since a +2 dual arrow have approximate accuracy equating to a +6, since a double roll typically yields a +4 increase in accuracy) U could effectively SPAM them all the way to oblivion, and miss out on that +4 enhancement bonus, but effectively double ur crit chance per attack.



A typical crit-fisher doesn't focus on his static damage, so his non-crit-hit isn't that spectacular, thus he doesn't really care about what effective boost to hit these arrows give him, only that it's another d20 he can roll.  Concerning the affordability, once you can afford a level 12-13 item is when you can stock up on these arrows.
a level 12 item equates to 65 arrows
a level 13 item equates to 85 arrows
a level 14 item equates to 105 arrows
a level 15 item equates to 125 arrows

Assuming you're doing something like twin strike or the like you'll be expending 2 arrows / round +1(misc), thus a mere stock equivalent to a level 12 item can last you 21 rounds, or about  4-5 encounters, enough to loot more money to buy some more arrows.  It used to be that student of ciaphon helped give the crit range desired when using a radiant bow in conjunction with these arrows, thus requiring late paragon for affordability, but since that's no longer an option the best route is available in early paragon.  
Caller of the grave(bard PP) helps in crit fishing, but only on encounter and daily powers against 1 foe/encounter.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Reformatted the FeyCharge entry.  Not sure if it's enough of a change to care much.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Not sure if this has been posted yet, so I'll post it anyway.

Familiar Mounts

Have you always wanted to ride off into the sunset on your faithful Gelatinous Cube, or fly around on the severed hand from the Adams Family? Now you can!

The Trick

Doing so isn't hard - just take the Familiar Mount ritual. It's cheap and casts fast. For best results, pick a familiar with a special movement mode, such as flying.


Expansions

- Wizards who take the utility power Familiar Harrier and equip their familiar with a Nightmare Saddle gain a teleport speed of 10.
- For non-Wizards, the feat Space Bending Familiar gives you a teleport speed of 2 when combined with Nightmare Saddle.
- Taking the Active Familiar feat nearly doubles your mobility.
- Giving your familiar a Charm of Protection keeps it safe longer and doesn't take up the same item slot as Nightmare Saddle.
- Especially good familiars are Specter, who does not provoke OAs, and Gelatinous Cube, who has permanent invisibility, keeping him in the rodeo for much longer than your average familiar.


Trick Synergy

Familiar Mounts can be easily incorporated into any Arcane build that has a few feats to spare.


Links

Ads had that flying sword mount build, but I don't remember what it's called.


Cheese Rating

These options combine in an obvious and predictable way. They're incredibly fun without being overpowered. I don't see any DM banning this.


Other Important Notes

- Familiar Mounts increase your mobility, but if they die you're SoL for the rest of the encounter.
- Non Arcane classes can use this trick by MCing into an arcane class and picking up Ritual Caster if they don't already have it.

It would just be a whole lot easier if I were more proficient with html.  Oh well.

Posted a synthesized version of ChaosMage and SanityFairy's polearm synopsis.  I hope I did both justice, you two have very different posting styles.  I like that ChaosMage's is quick and to the point, but SanityFairy's was more comprehensive and self-referencing.  If you are dissatisfied, feel free to point out things you'd like changed.

Edit: fixed Bargle0's Triggered Action Denial synopsis by copying the html over directly.  *shakes fist at forum in defiance.* 



Looks fine to me.
Reformatted the FeyCharge entry.  Not sure if it's enough of a change to care much.


It was  
Updated.


Looks fine to me.


Only because I was successful


Added Y_D's Familiar Mount module. 

A note: due to the necessity of copying and pasting html directly, I have been rolling updated versions of modules down to the bottom of the post.  I may be able to rectify that soon though.
Frost abuse - there are a few Paragon Paths out there that get bonuses of various sorts on frost damage and/or produce it in large quantity.  I believe Winter Fury (barbarian) does, and I know there's a warden PP out there that gets slides out of it.  I believe there's at least one ED (Winter Sovereign, I think?  ...or is that a PP?) as well.
Charging (1+)

Alpha, Could you add this?  It is a package, and it goes well with other things, so I'd like to see it have it's own entry.  I'll reformat if you want.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Updated Familiar Mounts module - found Ads' build.

Familiar Mounts

Have you always wanted to ride off into the sunset on your faithful Gelatinous Cube, or fly around on the severed hand from the Adams Family? Now you can!

The Trick

Doing so isn't hard - just take the Familiar Mount ritual. It's cheap and casts fast. For best results, pick a familiar with a special movement mode, such as flying.


Expansions

- Wizards who take the utility power Familiar Harrier and equip their familiar with a Nightmare Saddle gain a teleport speed of 10.
- For non-Wizards, the feat Space Bending Familiar gives you a teleport speed of 2 when combined with Nightmare Saddle.
- Taking the Active Familiar feat nearly doubles your mobility.
- Giving your familiar a Charm of Protection keeps it safe longer and doesn't take up the same item slot as Nightmare Saddle.
- Especially good familiars are Specter, who does not provoke OAs, and Gelatinous Cube, who has permanent invisibility, keeping him in the rodeo for much longer than your average familiar.


Trick Synergy

Familiar Mounts can be easily incorporated into any Arcane build that has a few feats to spare.




Cheese Rating

These options combine in an obvious and predictable way. They're incredibly fun without being overpowered. I don't see any DM banning this.


Other Important Notes

- Familiar Mounts increase your mobility, but if they die you're SoL for the rest of the encounter.
- Non Arcane classes can use this trick by MCing into an arcane class and picking up Ritual Caster if they don't already have it.


Ytterbium_Dragon
Frost abuse - there are a few Paragon Paths out there that get bonuses of various sorts on frost damage and/or produce it in large quantity.  I believe Winter Fury (barbarian) does, and I know there's a warden PP out there that gets slides out of it.  I believe there's at least one ED (Winter Sovereign, I think?  ...or is that a PP?) as well.



Warden PP - Icewrought Sentinel

and Winter Sovereign is indeed an ED. Also, Long Night Scion is related to frost. I can search for more if you want, but I probably wouldn't include these PPs as really a part of the package...

Hi, I am trying to build a defender for paragon-level play. The whole concept of polearm-abusing seems both fun and effective, and I would like to build around that. 
My question is, what way is the best to go? The obvious seems like fighter, but chaladins are also mentioned here. I have been experimenting a little, but i cant really find a good solution that gets a slide/push at-will without the build getting to MAD (if i want polearm gamble i will need 15 str, 15 dex and 15 wis). Could anyone point me out in the right direction please? 
You can start with an 18 in your primary stat and get 15 Dex and 15 Wis (starting with 16 in the primary + racial bonus, and 14 in the other two + bonus from reaching paragon tier). If you take into account that wis is a pretty good secondary for fighters, you could even go for a race that increases your primary and wis (longtooth shifters, for example) and get a pretty good build.
You can start with an 18 in your primary stat and get 15 Dex and 15 Wis (starting with 16 in the primary + racial bonus, and 14 in the other two + bonus from reaching paragon tier). If you take into account that wis is a pretty good secondary for fighters, you could even go for a race that increases your primary and wis (longtooth shifters, for example) and get a pretty good build.


 


Yeah, but in the case of fighters it was the lack of a suitable at-will slide, because i am uncertain if i can use footwork lure (and then heavy blade opportunity as to also use it on opportunity attacks). When it says it slides 1 to the space i left, can the slide be increased (by, say rushing cleats) and trigger polearm momentum by sliding a non-direct route but still ending in the space i left?

the half-elf fighter version (advantage: use of pressing strike, which is awesome as a PG opportunity power.  Also, you mark everything that provokes an opportunity attack, and one of the schticks of this build is that it makes the enemies have to work to not provoke oppotunity attacks)
base 18 str, 13dex, 13 wis preracial.  boost str/wis at 4, then str/dex at 8, leaving you at 21str, 15dex, 15wis at level 11.  As previously implied, take pressing strike as dilletente power.  starting at level 11, take and swap for versatile master, PG, HBO, and PM (done by level 12 with two feats and two swaps.  PM is technically a heroic feat, but you don't qualify for it before paragon.)  Use a glaive, and seriously consider MCing to barbarian to powerswap for a rage (which will, in addition to its other effects, add damage to your pressing strike).

This gets even better if you wear antipathy gloves and/or can findways to increase your shift distance.  Accumulating sources of threatening reach also becomes tasty.

the half-elf paladin version (advantage - your trick works on an MBA.  Also, your stats come out nicer.  Also, slide is better than push, it takes fewer feats, and half-elves make good chaladins anyway)
base 16(+2) cha, 14str, 14wis, 13dex, 10(+2)con, 8int.  Make sure that level 4 goes cha/dex, then just keep pushing cha and whatever.  (wis is often good for this, given Honored Foe).  at level 11, you have 21cha, 15str, 15wis, 15dex, 13con, 9int, and another +1 to go anywhere that isn't cha.  Dilletente power Eldritch Strike(cha).  You have to MC to fighter (do this in heroic) so you might as well take Battle Awareness.  Your weapon can be any polearm you like - you won't get expertise for them anyway - but I like the greatspear, both because it's a superior weapon (with all that entails) and because you can take a feat to make your Eldritch Strike target reflex.  Hitting is always nice.  You'll still want PG, PM, and Versatile Master, but there's no need for HBO.  Polearm Master's mark-punishment feature is absolute solid gold for you, and the rest of the PP isn't bad.  (the action point feature is awfully weak, to be sure, but the utility power is very nice indeed, and the forced move feature saves you your boot slot.)  Note that, PG doesn't work on shifts anymore, but that's okay - if you marked them, then the PP feature lets you hit them with an eldritch strike for shifting that close to you anyway.  Other obvious feats include Honored Foe (why wouldn't you?) and the heroic half-elf paladin feat that effectively makes your mark -3.  Note that, at least by my reading, adding Mark of Warding to that (I think that's the right one) effectively makes your mark -5.  Chaladins are excellent multimarkers, and you should take advantage of that.  Note that there's plenty of space left in this build to plug in another small modular optimization or two - with frostcheese (its easy, and your weapon's not spoken for), radiant mafia (you're a paladin, and your weapon's not spoken for), and charging(you have a nice, beefy MBA already, and your headgear and neckpiece aren't spoken for, though working out tactics could get interesting) being obvious possibilities.
Yeah, but in the case of fighters it was the lack of a suitable at-will slide, because i am uncertain if i can use footwork lure (and then heavy blade opportunity as to also use it on opportunity attacks). When it says it slides 1 to the space i left, can the slide be increased (by, say rushing cleats) and trigger polearm momentum by sliding a non-direct route but still ending in the space i left?


This should work under current rules, but putting together polearmcheese just for footwork lure is a bit too much effort for not enough gain.  Footwork lure tends to be the early technique that polearm fighters use before paragon.
Charging (1+)

Alpha, Could you add this?  It is a package, and it goes well with other things, so I'd like to see it have it's own entry.  I'll reformat if you want.


I hadn't added it yet because of the formatting, and I wasn't sure if the discussion was finished on it or not.
If you could reformat it, that'd be great.  I'll give credit to both you and borg on it, if you don't mind that.
Charging
The Trick
Charge.  The +1 to hit is always good, and then through stacking feats and Equipment, your basic at-will can be competitive with encounter powers.
Expansions

  • Equipment
    • Vanguard Weapon (+1d8 on charges, cheesy usage in off-hand)

    • Avalanche Hammer (+1[W] on charges)

    • Horned Helm (+tier d6 bonus damage on charges)

    • Badge of the Berserker (neck slot, charging no longer provokes OAs)

    • Boots of Adept Charging (shift 1 after a charge helps reduce foe's options)

    • Lancing Gloves


  • Powers
    • Eldritch Strike (slide 1 helps reduce foe's options, counts as a basic attack for everything)

    • Howling Strike (bonus damage on charge)

    • Maurader's Rush (bonus damage on charge)

    • Throw and Stab (bonus attack before charge)

    • Knockdown Assault (prone really reduces a foe's options)

    • Savage Rend (Druid's MBA of choice, get an Alfsair spear), Pounce, Grasping Claws

    • Ardent Strike, Virtuous Strike

    • Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, Acid Orb, Dragonfrost, Avenging Light using the Reaper's Touch feat


  • Feats
    • Surprising Charge (+1[W] if charge with CA)

    • Impaling Spear (further help accuracy with all the basic attacks you make)

    • Fey Charge (...)

    • Powerful Charge

    • Mounted Combat (nice heroic mounts found in the heroic section in the DPR king candidates)

    • Barreling Charge

    • Roundabout Charge



Trick Synergy

  • Catch-22 (Good MBA required)

  • Feycharging

  • Broom Builds (prone foes have even less options)

  • Frost Cheese (Surprising Charge works especially well with constant CA)


Cheese ratings
The only cheesy bit listed here is wielding a Vanguard Weapon in your off hand.
Other important notes
It can be rather equipment dependent.

Credit to borg285 for the initial writeup
 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Charging
The Trick
Charge.  The +1 to hit is always good, and then through stacking feats and Equipment, your basic at-will can be competitive with encounter powers.
Expansions

  • Equipment
    • Vanguard Weapon (+1d8 on charges, cheesy usage in off-hand)

    • Avalanche Hammer (+1[W] on charges)

    • Horned Helm (+tier d6 bonus damage on charges)

    • Badge of the Berserker (neck slot, charging no longer provokes OAs)

    • Boots of Adept Charging (shift 1 after a charge helps reduce foe's options)

    • Lancer Gloves

    • Impaling Spear (further help accuracy with all the basic attacks you make)


  • Powers
    • Eldritch Strike (slide 1 helps reduce foe's options, counts as a basic attack for everything)

    • Howling Strike (bonus damage on charge)

    • Maurader's Rush (bonus damage on charge)

    • Throw and Stab (bonus attack before charge)


  • Feats
    • Surprising Charge (+1[W] if charge with CA)

    • Fey Charge (...)

    • Powerful Charge

    • Mounted Combat (nice heroic mounts found in the heroic section in the DPR king candidates)

    • Barreling Charge

    • Roundabout Charge



Trick Synergy

  • Catch-22 (Good MBA required)

  • Feycharging

  • Broom Builds (prone foes have even less options)

  • Frost Cheese (Surprising Charge works especially well with constant CA)


Cheese ratings
The only cheesy bit listed here is wielding a Vanguard Weapon in your off hand.
Other important notes
It can be rather equipment dependent.

Credit to borg285 for the initial writeup
 



Thanks muchly, added
Still looking for a good synopsis of swordburst optimization.

Also, if any of the originators or experts of particular tricks see this, it would be great if you could proofread the existing synopsis for your trick and let us know if there's anything important missing, or links that we should include.
It might be good to do a list of all the ways to recharge things, similar to the crit chance post.

That way people making any character based on a specific encounter or daily power can reference it.

PS in the charge write up change lancer gloves to lancing gloves
Mike Donais. Cryptozoic R&D
You should add the feat Draconic Arrogance in the expansion of the polearm cheese, since it gives you a simil-iron vanguard ability but keyed on strength.
(heroic tier) Druid Daily Auto-death


The Trick

1. Be (or get) away from BBEG
2. Cast Earth Roots (Druid Daily 1)
3 Use Action Point
3a. Cast Wall of Thorns over Earth Roots
4. If BBEG tries to leave zone (taking more damage along the way), Use Earth roots to pull him back (even more damage)
5. Sustain both with 2 minor actions
6. Watch BBEG die


Expansions

-No hit needed!
-Use without Action point: You can take two round to cast this easily, but risk your fellow players ending up in the zone
-You will still have a standard action per subsequent round to move BBEG back in should they escape (with action point or teleport, et al.)
-A teleport or high shift power to initially get you away from BBEG (should he win initiative or start close.


Trick Synergy

-Any power/trick that forces movement, should BBEG escape via teleport/action point.
-Druid Hybrids can use this trick: Simply make your 9th level daily a power of you non-druid class, then retrain to make you 1st and 5th level powers both Druid.
-No hit needed, therefore you can hybrid this with any other class (though wisdom, dex or con based prefered)
-If you can force the BBEg into a wall or a corner, this trick will lock down even the most mobile BBEGs


Cheese ratings

-Dms will not like this combo and may implement house rules such as considering the Wall of Thorns "dangerous terrain" and granting saving throw toBBEG for the forced move.
-Other players may feel left out while you kill the final boss of adventure all by yourself


Other important notes

-This combo is especially powerful against Large + Creatures.
-With the new Errata regarding forced movement (no vertical movement allowed) this trick is very limited when used against flying creatures


Credit to *Skrimshaw* for the initial synopsis


It might be good to do a list of all the ways to recharge things, similar to the crit chance post.

That way people making any character based on a specific encounter or daily power can reference it.

PS in the charge write up change lancer gloves to lancing gloves


I already did a mini-guide for recharging encounter powers- the link is in my sig.  I don't think there's any guide for dailys yet, though.
Skrimshaw - I missed that part of the errata.  Where is it?
Skrimshaw - I missed that part of the errata.  Where is it?

That's not errata, it's in the PHB, in the Forced Movement section.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

(heroic tier) Druid Daily Auto-death



What is stopping a creature in the Earth Roots zone from doing a double move, move+charge, or run to get out of range from being slid back in?  Also, since entering the wall takes 3 extra squares of movement, you could not use the 2 square slide to move a creature back into the wall if it shifts out.  It seems like this trick only works if you can trap the creature in a corner and block them from moving out, which may not happen too often.
Also, since entering the wall takes 3 extra squares of movement, you could not use the 2 square slide to move a creature back into the wall if it shifts out.

Why not?  Forced movement ignores difficult terrain.  You simply move the target the designated number of squares.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

I think this thread is a great idea, and one I hope the game designers keep an eye on. Since you are going to be talking a lot about cheese tricks, I thought it would be helpful to rankings of the cheese in a sort of a cheese scale. this is the one my group uses:

0. Tofu- Most people can see that this is clearly not cheese.

1. Velveeta- actually artificially flavored processed vegetable oil, yet gullible people might consider this cheese.

2. American- this is officially cheese, although  true cheese connoisseurs disdain it. if it comes in plastic wrapped rubbery slices, then see 1. Used for things that are considered barely cheese.

3. Cheddar- Solid, unexceptional cheese. Frostcheese would be a good example.

4. Blue- Some may consider this strong moldy cheese a little iffy- such as using a feat/item that gives cold damage without the cold keyword and claiming it's frostcheese.

5. Casu Marzu- This thoroughly rotten cheese is filled with live maggots. Only the most deranged or suicidal person would consider using it. At worst, you could be eaten from the inside by maggots; at best, your DM will throw his dice bag at you. It's illegal in many countries. See the last rules errata for examples.

Also, since entering the wall takes 3 extra squares of movement, you could not use the 2 square slide to move a creature back into the wall if it shifts out.

Why not?  Forced movement ignores difficult terrain.  You simply move the target the designated number of squares.



Player powers do not create terrain unless specified.  The wall does not say it creates difficult terrain, so it does not.   It says it takes 3 extra squares to enter, and forced movement qualifies as entering.  The PHB FAQ has a similar question about sliding into Wall of Fire and says the extra squares of movement would apply.
I think this thread is a great idea, and one I hope the game designers keep an eye on. Since you are going to be talking a lot about cheese tricks, I thought it would be helpful to rankings of the cheese in a sort of a cheese scale. this is the one my group uses...

That's a fun list, but I think there's an important consideration it doesn't cover.

"Cheesy" actually covers two concepts.  One is how overpowered the trick is, and the other is how debatable it is that it actually works.

For instance, frostcheese clearly works on innately cold attacks, no argument.  There are still some people who think that frost weapons won't cause it to work, so there's a small cheese factor on that dimension.  Since virtually all frostcheesers use a frost weapon, on a scale of 1-5, I'd rate it a 3 on power but a 2 on questionability.

Similarly, feycharging: it's clearly a 5 on power (1k damage?  Please), but there's little debate about whether it works.  In its purest form--one extra MBA per round--it's a 1 on that dimension.  Depending on the extra stuff thrown in, it could be higher.
Player powers do not create terrain unless specified.  The wall does not say it creates difficult terrain, so it does not.   It says it takes 3 extra squares to enter, and forced movement qualifies as entering.  The PHB FAQ has a similar question about sliding into Wall of Fire and says the extra squares of movement would apply.

Huh, you're right.  Doesn't make any sense to me, but then it also doesn't make any sense to me that forced movement ignores difficult terrain but doesn't ignore terrain that isn't technically difficult but can mimic the effect.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

And I use cheesy to talk about the degree to which it shouldn't work, but does.  I personally define cheese as "when RAW doesn't align with RAI" (roughly.  When the mechanical benefits can be used in a way contrary to the flavor the benefits are trying to emulate).

Weapon Focus (Staff): Cheesy.  Knowing how to wield a quarterstaff in combat makes your fireballs stronger?

Half-Elf Avengers with Twin Strike?  Cheese.  Avenger designers didn't think you'd take a race without any bonuses just for one racial power and some weird math.

Frostcheese: Using a weapon to tack in the cold keyword was probably not envisioned by the designers, who figured you'd have to have cold-themed powers to take advantage of it.

Students of Caiphon wielding lightsabers?  The exact same cheese as Frostcheese, except they broke this one via update and didn't break that one.

Sorcerer Daggermasters critting on AoEs on 18+?  Cheese.  Same as Frostcheese/SoC cheese, but in the other direction.

(old, pre-update) Bloodclaw applying to attacks of the other weapon?  Cheese.  Strong Cheese

Altair Spear + Polearm Momemtum + Savage Rend?  Blue-Munster Cheese.  Using a feat with "because I hit you with this special weapon" flavor in an implement attack emulating a cat with claws...

Fey Charge?   No cheese at all, exactly what was intended.  Fey Charge plus ESA?  What it says on the can.  Overpowered, but not cheesy.  If you read both feats, you'd see that's exactly how they should interact.  It's obvious.  It's clear.  It's intended.

Splitting a Fey Charge with the boots, stopping on each side of your target?  Ok, that's cheese.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Unkillable

The Trick
I don't remember the details, but there's items, feats, and PP's (horizon walker, flamebrow commander?) that give you bonuses to death saving trows.  If you roll 20 (1d20+modifiers) or higher  you get to spend surge.  This makes it very difficult to kill you.

Expansion
Add stuff that let's you stay concious below 0 (revenent is an obvious one, but i think some items do it too), so you don't loose a turn, and can cap it off with raven queens consort ED, so you don't even have to spend a surge.


Link
I know there's threads around somewhere

Cheese ratings
Nothing here has wierd RAW interpritations

Other Info
It's still possible to die by going negitive bloodied.



This needs more sopecific details.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Frostcheese: Using a weapon to tack in the cold keyword was probably not envisioned by the designers, who figured you'd have to have cold-themed powers to take advantage of it.


For the record, the latest update appears not only to have confirmed that it works, the change they DID make to lasting frost anticipates the consequences of allowing frost weapons to grant the cold keyword.  IE, even if it was against RAI before, it appears to be accepted by the devs now.


My use of cheese here so far has been a matter of laying out what problems you might have using it.
For the most part, that means selling it to the DM.  The more cheesy it is, the more likely some DMs are to nerf it.
The problem with a rating is that, as MindWandererB said, the section on cheese needs to cover multiple issues.
The two  that MWB cites(brokenness versus power) are the most common, but not only issues in that department.
For example, 4e is setup so that campaign-specific things are often acceptable in other settings("if it has a place in the Forgotten Realms...").  Swordmages are the most easy to accept example.  Technically, they were published in the Forgotten Realms, but I don't know any DMs who would refuse to let me play one in any setting I want so long as they have access to the swordmage writeup.
On the other hand, Dragonmarks and Dragonshards are both Eberron-specific, and while some DMs will allow them on fair-use grounds, others will draw the line against such things.  Taking Power of Arcana and Power of the Sun on the same character?  Not possible outside Eberron, according to the Windowshopping in the Astral Sea thread, and not possible at all according to the CB.

So setting-specific stuff outside their native setting becomes a form of cheese, simply because you'll get a negative reaction from some DMs and a positive one from others.



Regarding the unkillable module, I don't know anything about how to make it work, and I think I'd rather wait till we have a more full description of it to throw it in there.  Is there anyone who can enlighten us?
This needs more sopecific details.

I think ShakaUVM put the relevant details up in the Handbook of Broken (I moved to "Overpowered?").  I agree that it belongs here too.  (Although his Lich-Beastmaster probably only belongs in the HoB, and isn't there yet.)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I added it but it's been so long i forgot the details.

found a link,  i'm pretty sure that's not the original though...  someone did it before revenents came out.
Show

The key elements are:

Raven Consort 24th level feature for the bonus to defenses and saves, and the free surgeless healing with a 20+ on a death save.

Verve Armor...untyped +2 bonus to death saves, and the daily power lets you treat a death save as a 20...drawback is scale or plate only.

Periapt of Recovery...+2 item bonus to death saves...trade it out for Nullifying ring for +3 item bonus to ALL saves.

Death Scorned...revenant racial feat, +1 untyped to death saves and don't die till failing 1+con mod death saves.

Unyielding Fortitude/Eerie Resurgence...+2 feat bonus to death saves among other things...

Survivor's Belt...roll twice and take better for all death saves

Paragon features of Flamebrow Commander/Horizon Walker/Raven Herald/God Fragment....All add some ammount to death saves...Abiding Reaper gets an honorable mention for it's 12th level utility power that lets you re-roll a failed death save with a +5 bonus.

Fierce Vitality...revenant racial feat, remain consious until failing 2 death saves...not likely if even possible with those bonuses...

Ghostly Vitality...revenant racial feat, when below 0 you are insubstantial and can take all your normal actions.

Deathless Warrior...Shadar-kai racial feat...if a melee or close attack reduces you to 0 or less, reduce damage by 5+con

Martial Resolve...lets you make saves against a bunch of nasty effects at the start of your turn...even tougher to slow down.




Edit: i think this is the original.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

iirc, the original is a Warforged tactic.
Regarding the unkillable module, I don't know anything about how to make it work, and I think I'd rather wait till we have a more full description of it to throw it in there.  Is there anyone who can enlighten us?

It's not so much a module as it is just finding everything you can that boosts saving throws, death saves in particular.

That said, it's an epic option, but you could base a build around Timely Revival, which lets you make death saves at the start of your turn.  Font of Life can do this as well, since extra saving throws carry no penalty if you fail them.

I happen to have been working on a "super-saver" warden build.  The following are options for it; I haven't gotten to items yet, and I was specifically looking for options for a warden/fighter/cleric, so the list is incomplete.  Nevertheless,
- Backgrounds: Crusading Zealot, Former Gladiator/Wandering Mercenary, or Scorned Noble
- Paragon Path: Anointed Champion
Feats:
- Timely Revival (of course)
- Stubborn Survivor
- Human Perseverance
- Revitalizing Font of Life (this works because even if you succeed at the first death save, the +2 will help you reach a 20.  Particularly nice for warforged, since they never fail a death save.)
- Enhanced Font of Life
- Enduring Font
- Unyielding Fortitude
- Battle Awareness
 -Victor's Confidence (no longer stacks with itself, unfortunately)
- Die Hard

Edit: Mellored ninja'ed me with a more specific version.  Mine works better for saves in general, but his is better for death saves in particular.  Next time I DM for a revenant shadar-kai, I'll know to CdG them. Wink

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

My group usually defines cheese as either how stupid or funny using the combo is, like using a glaive as an implement and polearm momentum with slide or push spells, or how sketchy and subject to interpretation of the rules that the combo is, such as calling frostcheese with a feat that adds a few points of cold damage but doesn't add the cold keyword. I think that how cheesy a combo is, or how overpowered it is, are two different things.


On the other hand, how likely a DM is to accept your combo, vs. how likely they are to throw their books at you, is probably the most useful definition for the purpose of a thread like this. In any case I guess a one word entry in the cheese section is probably not the most useful way to go, even though I personally love the cheese scale.

The best approach is self-banning. If you think it's kind of cheesy to show up in your precious gaming group with the desired combo, tone it down. Most of the combos are modular, as the thread title suggests. For example, Polearm Gamble by itself is already good. You don't HAVE to cheese it to death with HBO. Or Fey Charge: In our group nobody would ever think about showing up with a swordmage arcance feycharger bullcrap. But a regular fighter who takes the feat? no problem - and still very good.
(heroic tier) Druid Daily Auto-death

What is stopping a creature in the Earth Roots zone from doing a double move, move+charge, or run to get out of range from being slid back in? 



Earth roots slows you (move 2), double move would only be 4
Wall of thorns takes 3 move to move into a square.  Remember BBEG will be in the middle (or back if wall), not the edge.

Also, since entering the wall takes 3 extra squares of movement, you could not use the 2 square slide to move a creature back into the wall if it shifts out.  It seems like this trick only works if you can trap the creature in a corner and block them from moving out, which may not happen too often.



"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)


"Forced movement is not impeded by difficult/hindered terrain." (From DDI index)

I just learned myself: zones and zone-like effects created by players do impede forced movement.  I don't really get it, but the FAQ says so.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

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