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kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts

## At-Will DPRs

Show

Mar 10, 2010: I'm on vacation for the next 3 weeks. Will update more when I get back!

Generic comparison of Twin Strike and Piercing Strike at level 30 is up, with surprising results.

I haven't found a resource for comparing at-will powers across the classes, so I compiled the following comparison of at-will powers at level 1, using CharOp's favorite metric - DPR.

For a more extensive comparison, I've decided to include leader at-wills and had their effect on party DPR factored in. Some of my findings were a bit surprising, especially with regards to which powers are most effective at straight damage. I also found that there are extremely few cases where a primary attack ability score of 18 and a rider ability of 18 beats a primary 20 rider 16 combination.

I would like to update this with an analysis of at-will DPRs at level 11 and level 21, but it's obviously a lot more difficult to make reasonable assumptions with regards to feats, hit probability, and average character DPR at those levels. Any help and input would be appreciated.

*****

At-Will Power Comparison at Level 1

General Assumptions

1) Average character hit probability is 70%, and average DPR is 10.
2) Party size (including you) is 5 members.
3) Primary attack ability scores are always 20 unless otherwise noted.
4) No feats are assumed.
5) MM average defenses are used to calculate hit probability.
6) For simplicity's sake, critical hit chances are ignored. For characters that have multiple attack rolls (rangers, avengers, and invokers using HoR) their DPR should be slightly higher than shown.

Striker At-Wills
Show

Twin Strike (melee)
Assumptions: Str 20, 2 longswords, Hunter's Quarry and combat advantage on target.
DPR: 0.8*4.5*2 + 0.96*3.5 = 10.56

Twin Strike (ranged)
Assumptions: Dex 20, using a longbow, Hunter's Quarry and prime shot on target.
DPR: 0.7*5.5*2 + 0.91*3.5 = 10.885

Careful Attack (ranged)
Assumptions: Dex 20, using a longbow, Hunter's Quarry and prime shot on target.
DPR: 0.8*14 = 11.2

Throw and Stab + Marauder's Rush
Assumptions: Str 20 Wis 16, throwing trident and quick drawing maul, Hunter Fighting Style and Running Attack options, Hunter's Quarry on target, and you are able to charge.
DPR: Thrown (0.65*5.5) + Charge (0.75*15) + Quarry (0.93*3.5) = 18.08
Note: DPR of Marauder's Rush alone without charging is 12.025

Howling Strike
Assumptions: Str 20, you are using a maul and have combat advantage.
DPR: 0.75*15.5 = 11.625

Dancing Cobra
Assumptions: Dex 20 Wis 16, wielding +3 prof weapon, combat advantage, and uses flurry of blows.
DPR: 0.925*15.5 = 14.3375

Eldritch Blast
Assumptions: Cha/Con 20, target is cursed and is a prime shot.
DPR: 0.725*14 = 10.15

Eldritch Strike
Assumptions: Cha/Con 20, you are using a maul, target is cursed and you have combat advantage.
DPR: 0.75*15.5 = 11.625

Assumptions: Wis 20 Int 16, Unity avenger wielding maul with Oath active, 1 ally is flanking target with you.
DPR: Yourself (0.937*13) + Ally (0.937*0.8*3) = 14.4298

Piercing Strike
Assumptions: Dex 20 Str 16, Brutal Scoundrel with Rogue Weapon Talent using dagger, has combat advantage and uses Sneak Attack.
DPR: 0.95*17.5 = 16.625

Defender At-Wills
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Brash Strike
Assumptions: Str 20 Con 16, you're using a maul with Two-Handed Weapon Talent and have combat advantage.
DPR: 0.9*15 = 13.5

Holy Strike
Assumptions: Str 20 Wis 16, you're using a maul and have combat advantage and target is marked.
DPR: 0.75*15 = 11.25

Show

Commander's Strike
Assumptions: Int 18, ally is flanking with you and is using a 1d10 weapon.
DPR: 0.8*14.5 = 11.6

Paint the Bulls-Eye
Assumptions: Str 18 Cha/Wis 18, you're using a longbow, everyone hits the target if you hit.
DPR: Yourself (0.6*5.5) + Allies (0.6*0.7*4)*4 = 10.02

Righteous Brand
Assumptions: Str 20, you're using a maul and ally is flanking with you.
DPR: Yourself (0.75*12) + Ally (0.75*0.25*10) = 10.875

Guiding Strike
Assumptions: Cha 20, you're using a longsword, have combat advantage, and 2 people who can hit the defense you nuked hits the target if you hit.
DPR: Yourself (0.8*9.5) + Allies (0.8*0.1*10)*2 = 9.2

Staggering Note
Assumptions: Cha 20, ally is using a 1d10 weapon.
DPR: Yourself (0.71*5) + Ally (0.71*0.7*10.5) = 8.7685

Magic Weapon
Assumptions: Int 20 Con/Wis 16, you're using a maul, have combat advantage, and 2 allies can benefit from your buff.
DPR: Yourself (0.8*12) + Allies (0.8*0.05*10 + 0.8*0.75*3)*2 = 14

Controller At-Wills
Show

Assumptions: Wis 20, there are 3 targets to hit.
DPR: 0.675*7.5*3 = 15.1875

*****

Discussion
Show

Most of the higher DPR at-wills require more assumptions. This being said, flanking in melee is very easy to achieve, whereas ranged attackers and chargers usually don't have such an easy means of gaining CA.

It comes as no surprise that a Brutal Scoundrel is the king of level 1 generic striker DPR, but I was surprised to see an Avenger at-will in a not so distant second. All it requires is 1 ally flanking your enmity target with you, and you can pump out nearly 14.5 DPR. Nothing else comes close to that. Ranger at-wills, having no static mods yet, are fairly weak to average at this level, though it should be noted that the Throw and Stab + Marauder's Rush combo is amazing whenever you are able to charge.

In the leader section, Commander's Strike and Magic Weapon are best in class as expected. With the recent errata, Righteous Brand clocked in at a notch below. It's also interesting to note, however, that Paint the Bulls-Eye is actually extremely good for a ranged at-will power, even outside of nova turns. Bard at-wills, meanwhile, are weaker than I thought - especially Staggering Note.

Controllers in general don't have many DPR-worthy at-wills when you work under the assumption that area bursts are fairly unreliable. The exception is the invoker's Hand of Radiance. In nearly all battles, there are at least 3 enemies to target, and thus HoR is useful for much of the battle. It's also great at clearing minions, and radiant is arguably the strongest energy type.

*****

At-Will Power Comparison at Level 30

General Assumptions

1) Average character hit probability is 70%, and average DPR is 40.
2) Party size (including you) is 5 members.
3) Primary attack ability scores are 28 unless otherwise noted.
4) MM average defenses are used to calculate hit probability.
5) For simplicity's sake, critical hit chances are ignored. For characters that have multiple attack rolls (rangers, avengers, and invokers using HoR) their DPR should be slightly higher than shown.
6) Each character will have access to one feat that is deemed indispensable; this will be listed with the specific assumptions in each entry. Eg. For martial characters, this will likely be Weapon Proficiency.

Assumed Modifiers

1) Weapon/Implement/Focused Expertise
2) Weapon Focus
3) +6 weapon
4) Iron Armbands of Power/Staff of Ruin or equivalent

Total to-hit modifiers: 9 (abil mod) + 15 (1/2 lvl) + 3 (expertise) + 6 (enhancement) + proficiency + (combat advantage)

Total damage modifiers: 6 (enhancement) + 3 (weapon focus) + 6 (item)

Striker At-Wills
Show

Twin Strike (melee)
Assumptions: Str 28, 2 bastard swords (Weapon Proficiency), Hunter's Quarry and combat advantage on target.
DPR: 0.716*26*2 + 0.919*10.5 = 46.8815

Piercing Strike
Assumptions: Dex 28 Str 24, Brutal Scoundrel with Rogue Weapon Talent using dagger, has combat advantage and uses Sneak Attack (Backstabber).
DPR: 0.9*29 + 0.9*29.5 = 52.65

Assumptions: Wis 28 Int 24 Unity avenger wielding maul with Oath active (Painful Oath), 1 ally is flanking with you.
DPR: Yourself (0.888*39) + Ally (0.888*0.7*7) + Painful Oath (0.888*9) = 45.9752

Show

Intuitive Strike
Assumptions: Str 28 Cha/Wis 24, you're wielding a longsword and flanking the target (Vexing Flanker), and everyone is able to gain the full bonus to hit vs. the target (+8 including CA) if you hit.
DPR: Yourself (0.9*24) + Allies (0.9*0.4*40)*4 = 79.2
Note: If the 70% to hit probability holds and thus only +5 of the to-hit bonus can be used, DPR = 57.6

Magic Weapon
Assumptions: Int 28 Con 24, you're using a fullblade (Weapon Proficiency), have combat advantage, and 2 allies can benefit from your buff.
DPR: Yourself (0.866*37) + Allies (0.866*0.1*40 + 0.866*0.8*7)*2 = 48.6692

*****

Discussion
Show

Preliminary thoughts: Never would I have imagined that Piercing Strike would beat out Twin Strike, even in a generic scenario with few static modifiers.

IMO this really goes to show that what's broken isn't Twin Strike - it's the ease with which static modifiers to damage can be obtained.

The Vexing Flanker + Intuitive Strike combo also seems very powerful at high levels, where DPR is high and to-hit mods are king. It blows even Magic Weapon out of the water.
Skrimshaw
Joined Mar 2002
224 Posts

Twin Strike

Assumptions: Str 20, 2 longswords.
DPR: 0.7*4.5*2 = 6.3

Piercing Strike
Assumptions: Dex 20 Str 16, Brutal Scoundrel with Rogue Weapon Talent using dagger, has combat advantage and uses Sneak Attack.
DPR: 0.95*17.5 = 16.625

Firstly, great idea. I do appreciate these type of posts.

That said, I have some questions.

If you are assuming Piercing Strike is using sneak attack with CA; why are you not assuming Twin Strike is using Hunter's quarry?

For that matter, why does your rogue get to add a paragon feat
, while others do not?

Should this comparison not be lvl 1 across the board with no feats or class abilities, (or all class abilities) in order to better compare the at wills/

Cheers.

Edit: to add punctuation and remove any misunderstanding of negativity.
also because I cannot read , apparently.
LordOfWeasels
Joined Apr 2009
7919 Posts
If you are assuming Piercing Strike is using sneak attack with CA, why are you not assuming Twin Strike is using Hunter's quarry?

For that matter, why does you rogue get to add a paragon feat, while others do not?

What Paragon Feat?

Rogue Weapon Talent is the Class Feature that gives Rogues +1 to hit with daggers.  You're thinking Rogue Weapon Mastery.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Skrimshaw
Joined Mar 2002
224 Posts

You're thinking Rogue Weapon Mastery.

Yikes, you're right, I totally was.
Cheers mate.

In my defence, I typed it into ddi index and it popped up as mastery, (really try it)
www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/da...
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26407 Posts
You need quarry for twin strike

Can someone do this for lvl 30 as well?

With the following assumptions

*+6 weapon
*Weapon focus
*Iron armbands/Bracers of archery
*Expertiese

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts
please refer to this section in the steryotypical section to see if you can update some of your assumptions.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts

Oops omitting Hunter's Quarry was 100% a mistake on my part, fixing it now.

Another assumption for level 30 might include average character DPR in order to be able to compare leader at-wills as well (since they generally add to a party's damage output).

furious_kender
Joined Oct 2007
2152 Posts
If the ranger is hunter style, there is no reason not be using a two handed weapon on the charge.
flipguarder
Joined Jul 2009
574 Posts
Is there a way without hybrid rules to get either the "wield two one handed weapons instead of one one handed and one offhand"? Because if so, I have an awesome half-elf avenger- Kensi- Eternal defender build.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26407 Posts
Is there a way without hybrid rules to get either the "wield two one handed weapons instead of one one handed and one offhand"? Because if so, I have an awesome half-elf avenger- Kensi- Eternal defender build.

I'm not sure what your asking, but there's a ranger MC "two-blade warrior" that let's you wield normals size weapon in your off hand".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

jwalker82
Joined Jul 2008
252 Posts
Ranger with Fullblade + Sure Strike should do fine as well
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26407 Posts
What's the average AC of a lvl 30 creature?

At-will DPR of auto-built lvl 30 chars.

Archer Ranger:  Twinstrike DPR +34 attack, 2d10+9 damage
build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Heskan, level 30
Dragonborn, Ranger, Horizon Walker, Darklord
Build: Archer Ranger
Fighting Style: Archer Fighting Style
Ranger: Running Attack
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Dexterity
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Acid

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 26, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.

AC: 44 Fort: 34 Reflex: 40 Will: 37
HP: 170 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 49

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +26, Acrobatics +27, Athletics +21, Heal +26, Dungeoneering +26, Religion +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +16, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Endurance +15, History +18, Insight +21, Intimidate +18, Perception +21, Stealth +22, Streetwise +16, Thievery +22

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Bow)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Bow)
Level 4: Lethal Hunter
Level 6: Improved Initiative
Level 8: Initiate of the Faith
Level 10: Predatory Action
Level 11: Point-Blank Shot
Level 12: Seize the Moment
Level 14: Bleeding Precision
Level 16: Combat Anticipation
Level 18: Sly Hunter
Level 20: Danger Sense
Level 21: Martial Mastery
Level 22: Peerless Hunter
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Staggering Shot
Level 28: Correcting Aim
Level 30: Surprise Action

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Careful Attack
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Evasive Strike
Ranger daily 1: Split the Tree
Ranger encounter 3: Thundertusk Boar Strike
Ranger daily 5: Excruciating Shot
Ranger utility 6: Skilled Companion
Ranger encounter 7: Hawk's Talon
Ranger daily 9: Attacks on the Run
Ranger utility 10: Open the Range
Ranger encounter 13: Answer with Steel (replaces Evasive Strike)
Ranger daily 15: Overwhelming Confrontation (replaces Split the Tree)
Ranger utility 16: Evade the Blow
Ranger encounter 17: Hounding Beast (replaces Answer with Steel)
Ranger daily 19: Crippling Spiral (replaces Overwhelming Confrontation)
Ranger utility 22: Forest Ghost
Ranger encounter 23: Blade Ward (replaces Hounding Beast)
Ranger daily 25: Thunderfury Charge (replaces Crippling Spiral)
Ranger encounter 27: Hail of Arrows (replaces Blade Ward)
Ranger daily 29: Culling Out (replaces Thunderfury Charge)

ITEMS
Ghost Chain Longbow +6, Lifeblood Elderhide Armor +6, Collar of Recovery +6, Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longbow, Longsword (2)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Melee Ranger Twinstrike +35 attack, 2d8+9
build
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 14, Dex 22, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.

AC: 42 Fort: 41 Reflex: 39 Will: 34
HP: 186 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +21, Nature +21, Athletics +29, Perception +21, Heal +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +20, Arcana +17, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Endurance +16, History +19, Insight +16, Intimidate +15, Religion +17, Stealth +22, Streetwise +15, Thievery +20

FEATS
Level 1: Lethal Hunter
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Agile Hunter
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Deva Heritage
Level 11: Blowgun Training
Level 12: Four Winds
Level 14: Corellon's Wrath Style
Level 16: Distant Shot
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 20: Improved Grab
Level 21: Leaf Runner Student
Level 22: Aberrant Mark of Terror
Level 24: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 26: Paragon Defenses
Level 28: Expert Charioteer
Level 30: Swift Footwork

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger encounter 1: Dire Wolverine Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Ranger encounter 7: Sweeping Whirlwind
Ranger daily 9: Swirling Leaves of Steel
Ranger utility 10: Expeditious Stride
Ranger encounter 13: Strength of Earth (replaces Dire Wolverine Strike)
Ranger daily 15: Steeling Flurry (replaces Jaws of the Wolf)
Ranger utility 16: Blade and Bow
Ranger encounter 17: Untamed Outburst (replaces Strength of Earth)
Ranger daily 19: Ringing the Bell (replaces Steeling Flurry)
Ranger utility 22: Hunt the Herd
Ranger encounter 23: Strength of Earth (replaces Untamed Outburst)
Ranger daily 25: Pulverizing Shot (replaces Ringing the Bell)
Ranger encounter 27: Rolling Fire (replaces Strength of Earth)
Ranger daily 29: Brutal Tempest (replaces Pulverizing Shot)

ITEMS
Battle Spirit Longsword +6, Bloodvine Elderhide Armor +6, Cloak of the Lion's Mane +6, Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword (2), Longbow
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Great Weapon Fighter: Cleave +38 attack 2d10+20
build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shedinn, level 30
Dragonborn, Fighter, Great Weapon Master, Invincible Vanguard
Build: Great Weapon Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Cold

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 30, Con 22, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.

AC: 45 Fort: 44 Reflex: 33 Will: 33
HP: 226 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 62

TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +21, Intimidate +23, Heal +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +14, Arcana +16, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +16, Endurance +19, History +18, Insight +16, Nature +16, Perception +16, Religion +16, Stealth +14, Thievery +14, Athletics +23

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Toughness
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Plate)
Level 8: Fighter Weapon Specialization
Level 10: Mark of Healing
Level 11: Stout Shield
Level 12: Enlarged Dragon Breath
Level 14: Barreling Charge
Level 16: Oncoming Storm
Level 18: Paragon Defenses
Level 20: Alchemist
Level 21: Devastating Critical
Level 22: Hammer Shock
Level 24: Dizzying Mace
Level 26: Unexpected Escape
Level 28: Brutal Tactics
Level 30: Brutal Finish

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Fighter at-will 1: Reaping Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Spinning Sweep
Fighter daily 1: Brute Strike
Fighter utility 2: Boundless Endurance
Fighter encounter 3: Dance of Steel
Fighter daily 5: Dizzying Blow
Fighter utility 6: Battle Awareness
Fighter encounter 7: Griffon's Wrath
Fighter daily 9: Thicket of Blades
Fighter utility 10: Last Ditch Evasion
Fighter encounter 13: Scattering Swing (replaces Spinning Sweep)
Fighter daily 15: No Room to Breathe (replaces Brute Strike)
Fighter utility 16: Strength From Pain
Fighter encounter 17: Bitter Harvest (replaces Scattering Swing)
Fighter daily 19: Pugilist's Resolve (replaces No Room to Breathe)
Fighter utility 22: Surprising Finish
Fighter encounter 23: Harrowing Hammer (replaces Bitter Harvest)
Fighter daily 25: Reaper's Stance (replaces Pugilist's Resolve)
Fighter encounter 27: Wild Offensive (replaces Harrowing Hammer)
Fighter daily 29: Blade Storm (replaces Reaper's Stance)

ITEMS
Fey Strike Greatsword +6, Crystalline Breastplate Godplate Armor +6, Cloak of the Shadowthief +6, Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Greatsword
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Trickster Rogue Deft Strike +37 attack 2d4+18
build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ghesh, level 30
Dragonborn, Rogue, Sword Coast Corsair, Prison of the Winds
Build: Trickster Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Dexterity
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Acid

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 15, Dex 28, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 24.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14.

AC: 44 Fort: 33 Reflex: 42 Will: 39
HP: 172 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +29, Thievery +31, Insight +20, Athletics +29, Streetwise +27, Intimidate +29

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +31, Arcana +16, Bluff +22, Diplomacy +22, Dungeoneering +15, Endurance +17, Heal +15, History +18, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16

FEATS
Level 1: Backstabber
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 6: Mounted Combat
Level 8: Deft Hurler Style
Level 10: Martial Ploy
Level 11: Grasping Magpies
Level 12: Broken Shackles
Level 14: Cull the Weak
Level 16: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 18: Martial Alacrity
Level 20: Thug Expert
Level 21: Lashing Flail
Level 24: Duelist's Panache
Level 26: Critical Ambush
Level 28: Devastating Critical
Level 30: Blood Thirst

POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Sly Flourish
Rogue at-will 1: Deft Strike
Rogue encounter 1: Positioning Strike
Rogue daily 1: Trick Strike
Rogue utility 2: Bounding Leap
Rogue daily 5: Clever Riposte
Rogue utility 6: Mob Mentality
Rogue encounter 7: Sand in the Eyes
Rogue daily 9: Knockout
Rogue utility 10: Dangerous Theft
Rogue encounter 13: Powerful Shot (replaces Positioning Strike)
Rogue daily 15: Arterial Slice (replaces Trick Strike)
Rogue utility 16: Foil the Lock
Rogue encounter 17: Hounding Strike (replaces Powerful Shot)
Rogue daily 19: Maiming Strike (replaces Arterial Slice)
Rogue utility 22: Thief of Fortune
Rogue encounter 23: Death Dance (replaces Hounding Strike)
Rogue daily 25: Hamstring (replaces Maiming Strike)
Rogue encounter 27: Perfect Strike (replaces Death Dance)
Rogue daily 29: Throat Cut (replaces Hamstring)

ITEMS
Poisoned Dagger +6, Shadow Warlock Starleather Armor +6, Amulet of Elusive Prey +6, Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Dagger (2)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Scourge Warlock +33 attack 2d10+20
build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Chiseler, level 30
Revenant, Warlock, Academy Master, Free Soul
Build: Scourge Warlock
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Choose your Race in Life: Gnoll

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 28, Dex 14, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 18, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 11.

AC: 41 Fort: 40 Reflex: 38 Will: 33
HP: 185 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 48

TRAINED SKILLS
History +26, Religion +26, Bluff +21, Streetwise +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +23, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +15, Endurance +28, Heal +15, Insight +15, Intimidate +18, Nature +15, Perception +15, Stealth +17, Thievery +17, Athletics +16

FEATS
Level 1: Implement Expertise (Rod)
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Improved Dark One's Blessing
Level 6: Past Life Flashbacks
Level 8: White Lotus Defense
Level 10: Devil's Favor
Level 11: Arcane Familiar
Level 12: War Wizardry
Level 14: Death Scorned
Level 16: Mark of Hospitality
Level 18: Whip Training
Level 20: Beseech Patron
Level 21: Ritual Caster
Level 22: Quick Draw
Level 24: Allegiance to the Daughter
Level 26: Ephemeral Stride
Level 28: White Lotus Enervation
Level 30: Connected

POWERS
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Warlock encounter 1: Vampiric Embrace
Warlock daily 1: Flames of Phlegethos
Warlock utility 2: Ethereal Stride
Warlock encounter 3: Fiery Bolt
Warlock daily 5: Hunger of Hadar
Warlock utility 6: Spider Climb
Warlock encounter 7: Howl of Doom
Warlock daily 9: Summons of Khirad
Warlock utility 10: Warlock's Leap
Warlock encounter 13: Killing Flames (replaces Vampiric Embrace)
Warlock daily 15: Plague of Frogs (replaces Flames of Phlegethos)
Warlock utility 16: Warp Space
Warlock encounter 17: Your Delectable Pain (replaces Killing Flames)
Warlock daily 19: Delusions of Loyalty (replaces Plague of Frogs)
Warlock utility 22: Wings of the Fiend
Warlock daily 25: The Prince's Horde (replaces Delusions of Loyalty)
Warlock encounter 27: Manipulating Thunderbolt (replaces Blades of Vanquished Armies)
Warlock daily 29: Vestige of the Earthen Maker (replaces The Prince's Horde)

ITEMS
Rod of Retributive Justice +6, Shadowdance Starleather Armor +6, Amulet of Attenuation +6, Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Rod Implement
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Battle Cleric Rightous Brand +35 attack 2d10+18
build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Althaea, level 30
Duergar, Cleric, Soul Guide, Champion of Prophecy
Build: Battle Cleric
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Strength
Prophetic Blessing: Prophetic Blessing Wisdom

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 24, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.

AC: 44 Fort: 41 Reflex: 37 Will: 37
HP: 181 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +21, History +21, Arcana +21, Insight +23, Intimidate +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +20, Endurance +22, Heal +18, Nature +18, Perception +20, Stealth +16, Streetwise +15, Thievery +16, Athletics +26

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Mace)
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Mace)
Level 8: Wall Crawlers
Level 10: Watchful Owl
Level 11: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
Level 12: Dark Fury
Level 14: Bravo
Level 16: Aberrant Mark of Terror
Level 18: Point-Blank Shot
Level 20: Back to the Wall
Level 21: Lightning Arc
Level 22: Sickening Finish
Level 24: Epic Reflexes
Level 26: Extended Healing
Level 28: Paragon Defenses
Level 30: Psychic Lock

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric at-will 1: Priest's Shield
Cleric encounter 1: Wrathful Thunder
Cleric daily 1: Avenging Flame
Cleric utility 2: Shield of Faith
Cleric encounter 3: Blazing Beacon
Cleric daily 5: Rune of Peace
Cleric utility 6: Bastion of Health
Cleric encounter 7: Awe Strike
Cleric daily 9: Divine Power
Cleric utility 10: Shielding Word
Cleric encounter 13: Strengthen the Faithful (replaces Wrathful Thunder)
Cleric daily 15: Gift of Incomparable Strength (replaces Avenging Flame)
Cleric utility 16: Cloak of Peace
Cleric encounter 17: Divine Phalanx (replaces Blazing Beacon)
Cleric utility 22: Prayer Made Real
Cleric encounter 23: Mortal Terror (replaces Divine Phalanx)
Cleric encounter 27: Sublime Light (replaces Mortal Terror)
Cleric daily 29: Astral Exile (replaces Gift of Incomparable Strength)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Brilliant Energy Morningstar +6, Stormlord Elderscale Armor +6, Periapt of Proof against Poison +6, Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Morningstar, Holy Symbol
RITUALS
Gentle Repose
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

MrCelsius
Joined Feb 2007
2150 Posts
While it's amusing that you didn't count Warlocks among the strikers, it would be good to have at least a few of their at-wills in there for reference.  Eldritch Strike/Blast and Hellish Rebuke, if nothing else.
(I employ zie/zie/zir as a gender-neutral counterpart to he/him/his. Just a heads-up.) Essentials definitely isn't for me as a player, and I feel that its design and implementation bear serious flaws which fill me with concern for the future of D&D, but I've come to the conclusion that it isn't going to destroy the game that I want to play. Indeed, I think that I could probably run a game for players using Essentials characters without it being much of a problem at all. Time will tell, I suppose.
sn0wm4n
Joined Sep 2009
233 Posts
What's the average AC of a lvl 30 creature?

The AC value used to determine DPR is level + 14, if I recall correctly
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26407 Posts
What's the average AC of a lvl 30 creature?

The AC value used to determine DPR is level + 14, if I recall correctly

Well that works out to 55% on most of my auto-builds.  And nearly all do 2|W|+20 (twin strike is 4|W|+18).

Assuming a 1d10 as the |W| we get 16.5 DPR.  Strikers do 22.275 DPR.  Twinstrike does 30.

That should probably be considered a bit on the low side.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts
Changed the Throw and Stab entry to quick draw a maul on the charge for a slightly boosted DPR. Added Eldritch Blast so that the warlocks are represented - as expected, the result is fairly mediocre.

Added the ranged version of Twin Strike and Careful Attack for comparison (Careful Attack seems to be better than Twin Strike at level 1). Also added a note in the Throw and Stab section detailing DPR of Marauder's Rush alone without charging.
crimson_lancer
Joined Jun 2003
6567 Posts
Huh?? At Level 1, that Warlock is out-DPR-ing both the Ranger and the Barbarian. Using an actually GOOD At-Will would also make a difference.
Resident Logic Cannon
kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts
Huh?? At Level 1, that Warlock is out-DPR-ing both the Ranger and the Barbarian. Using an actually GOOD At-Will would also make a difference.

The warlock isn't out-DPR-ing a ranger... I've updated with some other ranger at-wills for reference. And yes, barbarians are weaker because they don't have a striker feature such as quarry, sneak attack, or curse. Their advantages are their higher AC and hit points.

Regarding good at-wills, if you're talking about Hellish Rebuke, I'm not sure how to include it because as far as I know there is no reliable way at level 1 to force the secondary damage.
Chimerasame
Joined Oct 2007
1066 Posts
Shouldn't either all at-wills assume CA, or none?

At the least, I think the ones you are listing that assume CA, you should list alternate values for lacking CA.
The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
crimson_lancer
Joined Jun 2003
6567 Posts
The warlock isn't out-DPR-ing a ranger... I've updated with some other ranger at-wills for reference. And yes, barbarians are weaker because they don't have a striker feature such as quarry, sneak attack, or curse. Their advantages are their higher AC and hit points.

Shadow Walk + Evasive Combat Style = Barb AC + HP, first off (Leather + Shadow Walk = Hide + BA).

Regarding good at-wills, if you're talking about Hellish Rebuke, I'm not sure how to include it because as far as I know there is no reliable way at level 1 to force the secondary damage.

If you're just going to cherry-pick At-Wills...
Eldritch Strike
Assumptions: Cha/Con 20, target is Cursed and you are using a Maul and can Charge
DPR: .85*15.5 = 13.175

I'm not sure how you get your numbers exactly, so please feel free to correct me.

Resident Logic Cannon
elsoloistz
Joined Aug 2009
256 Posts
Just curious, why is the autobuild characters having feats that looks as if they were randomly picked (two blade ranger with blowgun, fighter with mark of healing, dragonborn archer rangers). It seems like a random assortment of characters/races builds.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26407 Posts
Just curious, why is the autobuild characters having feats that looks as if they were randomly picked (two blade ranger with blowgun, fighter with mark of healing, dragonborn archer rangers). It seems like a random assortment of characters/races builds.

Not ever archer ranger will be an elf.  The figher might take the mark for RP reasons.  A two-bladed ranger with a blowgun... ok i have no idea why that would happen, pretend he took ritual casting instead.

It's ment to be a base for new/non-optimal, but still viable PC (I just hit "quick character" and looked at the at-will powers).  To give us a base from which to compare optimal PC's from.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts
The warlock isn't out-DPR-ing a ranger... I've updated with some other ranger at-wills for reference. And yes, barbarians are weaker because they don't have a striker feature such as quarry, sneak attack, or curse. Their advantages are their higher AC and hit points.

Shadow Walk + Evasive Combat Style = Barb AC + HP, first off (Leather + Shadow Walk = Hide + BA).

Regarding good at-wills, if you're talking about Hellish Rebuke, I'm not sure how to include it because as far as I know there is no reliable way at level 1 to force the secondary damage.

If you're just going to cherry-pick At-Wills...
Eldritch Strike
Assumptions: Cha/Con 20, target is Cursed and you are using a Maul and can Charge
DPR: .85*15.5 = 13.175

I'm not sure how you get your numbers exactly, so please feel free to correct me.

Not sure how you get an 85% hit chance? For Eldritch Strike:

5 (ability mod) + 2 (proficiency) = +7 to-hit, which is 65% hit chance.

0.65*15.5 = 10.075, which is less than Eldritch Blast and one of the reasons why I included that power instead. Eldritch Strike is also a power that only fits in certain specialized builds (a lot of which aren't actually warlocks).

The DPRs assume no feats for better standardization. In general, the at-will power DPR calculations assume flanking if the power suggests that an ally should be adjacent to the target, allowing for a better than normal result from gaining that CA. That's the reasoning behind Leading Strike and Righteous Brand assuming CA, while Twin Strike and Howling Strike do not.

The list is by no means an exhaustive one, nor a 100% standardized one. It's meant as a resource for people who are curious about various at-will options... it's assumed that the assumptions for each power would be read and taken into account. It would be quite difficult to create something standardized to an extent that would make everyone happy, IMHO...

EDIT: I think that a previous poster has a point about CA assumptions though. In general, it's extremely easy for melee characters to get flanking and therefore combat advantage, while this is by no means the case for ranged or chargers. With this in mind, I'll update all melee at-will powers to assume CA.
omarmar
Joined Jun 2009
185 Posts
Amazing thread! I was wishing to see something like this, especially for level 30 strikers at wills and novas.

Sadly, well, actually, luckily, i got more work (and more pay) and found a place to play D&D... so my free time to try to do it went down by a large notch. But I'll try to contribute to it here and there.
Vagrant player in Mexico City.
kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts
Thanks omarmar!

With your encouragement, I've started on the level 30 at-will comparison with preliminary DPR calculations for two at-will powers - Twin Strike and Piercing Strike.

I must say that the results were quite surprising.

All comments are welcome, especially on whether there are other standard modifiers that ought to be included, and on the appropriateness of the assumptions.
omarmar
Joined Jun 2009
185 Posts
With your encouragement, I've started on the level 30 at-will comparison with preliminary DPR calculations for two at-will powers - Twin Strike and Piercing Strike.

For comparasion of optimized "pure class" & "not too cheesy" strikers i was thinking in just kidnapping LDB rangers and barbarian.

Sadly things won't be as easy for classes like assassins or monks, even for rogues, the colaboration of good optimizers with deep knowledge of those classes in order to build good specimens to use as test subjects will probably be required, if only because otherwhise the proyect might be more time consuming that what a single person can do.

Anyway, godspeed Kylian.
Vagrant player in Mexico City.
erleni
Joined Aug 2006
1924 Posts

For a 1st level nightstalker assassin:

Assumptions:

• invoking shrouds every two rounds (this is a reasonable pratice in average, not to lose your shrouds due to the target dying before you invoke).

• combat advantage due to flanking (CA is assumed by most calculations and at first level it's the main way you can get CA)

• 20 Dex, 16 Cha and Nightstalker bonus applies

Hit chance: 80% (70% basis + combat advantage)
Damage: 1d10 + 2 (creatures flanking) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (Cha) = 15,5
Average DPR without shrouds: 0,8*15,5 = 12,4
Average shroud dpr (2d6*0,8 + 1d6*0,2)/2= 3,15

Average overall DPR: 15,55
A Bleak Disciple would have a DPR of 13,1.

At low levels a nightstalker assassin's DPR is in line with the rest of strikers (you don't go Bleak Disciple if DPR is your target). I will look at a 30th level typical build.

erleni
Joined Aug 2006
1924 Posts

Assassin (nightstalker) 30th level:

Assumptions:
Invoking shrouds every 2 rounds not to lose them due to the target's death.
Nightstalker bonus applies
Flanking
Feat: Weapon proficiency Fullblade (a classic, even if high crit is not taken into consideration here)

Hit chance: 75% (+38 bonus versus 44 AC average).
Damage: 2d12 + 9 (dex) + 7 (cha) +6 (enh) +6 (armbands) + 2 (creatures)
Average DPR without shrouds: 32,25
Shroud damage: ((2d6+12)*0,75+(1d6+6)*0,25)/2 = 8,3125
Total DPR: 40,5625

Even with basic assumptions the assassin starts to lag behind other strikers. With more optimization the gap widens especially with the avenger and the ranger, due to more crit exploitation by the first and more static bonuses addition for the second.

A side note, that can maybe suggest something about how to fix the assassin just came to my mind. A typical assassin build goes Assassin/Soul Thief/Perfect Slayer (the only assassin ED). For a basic analysis like the one we are looking at the only interesting feature is the 30th level ED feature that basically says: when you invoke your shrouds they do not disappear. If you can place 4 shrouds on a target then this feature contributes for 28,75 points of DPR which will bring the DPR of this assassin to just 61 once four shrouds are present on the target which is the level of the "vanilla" striker, and brings the effect of the feature from a measly 20% of the DPR to a whopping 50%.

gimpymac
Joined Dec 2008
93 Posts
A rogue can do pretty well with sly flourish too, using brutal scoundrel tactics.

Using a superior crossbow, with crossbow weapon talent

i.e., .75*(5.5 + 4 + 2 + 7 + 3) = 16.125
kylian
Joined Jul 2004
96 Posts
GimpyMac I'm not super familiar with rogues. Is there now a way to reliably get combat advantage from ranged as a rogue?

I haven't looked at any of the assassin powers yet either; thanks for bringing it up erleni.

I'm on vacation for the next 3 weeks, will put up more updates when I get back.
gimpymac
Joined Dec 2008
93 Posts
GimpyMac I'm not super familiar with rogues. Is there now a way to reliably get combat advantage from ranged as a rogue?

I haven't looked at any of the assassin powers yet either; thanks for bringing it up erleni.

I'm on vacation for the next 3 weeks, will put up more updates when I get back.

There are also other ways to trick out your sneaking abilities that make striking from the shadows much easier; but distant advantage is by far the simplest/easiest/cheapest.
lightinfo
Joined Mar 2008
400 Posts
GimpyMac I'm not super familiar with rogues. Is there now a way to reliably get combat advantage from ranged as a rogue?

I haven't looked at any of the assassin powers yet either; thanks for bringing it up erleni.

I'm on vacation for the next 3 weeks, will put up more updates when I get back.

Ranged rogues can stealth for CA (plays well with Deft Strike) or use Distant Advantage (feat).

I'm not sure that a 20 ability score at level 1 is really that good of a comparison; since a lot of builds use an 18 instead. On the other hand, 28 at level 30 is fair since everyone takes Demigod

gimpymac
Joined Dec 2008
93 Posts
GimpyMac I'm not super familiar with rogues. Is there now a way to reliably get combat advantage from ranged as a rogue?

I haven't looked at any of the assassin powers yet either; thanks for bringing it up erleni.

I'm on vacation for the next 3 weeks, will put up more updates when I get back.

Ranged rogues can stealth for CA (plays well with Deft Strike) or use Distant Advantage (feat).

I'm not sure that a 20 ability score at level 1 is really that good of a comparison; since a lot of builds use an 18 instead. On the other hand, 28 at level 30 is fair since everyone takes Demigod

Unfortunately, demigod was hit with the nerf bat, so it's not quite as awesome at lvl 30. Still might be the best option, though, depending on how bad other stuff got nerfed.