## DPR King Candidates 2.0

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borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Here's another character concept using Eyebite, at level 1.

Level 1 Human Assault Swordmage|Warlock

Cheese used: 8
DPR: 20.85

Str 10 Con 11 Dex 10 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 20

At-will: Eyebite, Eldritch Strike, 1 swordmage open

Feats: Focused Expertise, Weapon Focus

Items: longsword, leather armor

DPR Calculations
Show

Assumptions: You've used your aegis on the target and cursed it. Your target doesn't try to attack you because you're far away (up to 10 squares) and invisible when you hit him with Eyebite.

Eyebite to-hit: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (expertise) = +6

Eldritch Strike to-hit: 5 (abil mod) + 3 (prof) + 1 (expertise) + 2 (invis CA) = +11

Eyebite damage: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (weapon focus) = +6

Eldritch Strike damage: 5 (abil mod) + 1 (versatile) + 1 (weapon focus) = +7

Curse damage: 1d6 per round.

Total DPR: 20.85

I know that DPR usually relies on at-wills, and you're using them, but DPR is typically reserved for sustained damage.  How can you expect to do this every round?  How can you be 10 squares away every round, teleport and do Eldritch Strike, and run away safely to do it again?  If you have a safe path shouldn't he?  Wouldn't you provoke an OA?  Eyebite only lasts till the start of your next turn.  When your turn starts he can then see you and smack you for trying to run away?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
kylian
Joined Dec 1969
Eldritch Strike slides the target 1 square, which at level 1 removes you from the threatening reach of nearly every level-appropriate monster in the MM.

The rounds probably go something like this:

Your turn: Aegis and Curse active. Eyebite target to become invisible to target. Move if you like.

Target's turn: Since it can't see you and don't know which square you're in, it'll probably (move and) hit somebody else. If it hits, you can immediately teleport and attack using Eldritch Strike as an interrupt. Slide target 1 square away from you.

Your next turn: Eyebite target again to become invisible again (you're out of its reach so shouldn't provoke OA). Move your speed wherever you like.

Target's turn: It still can't see you. Even if you missed with your Eyebite, you're a good distance away and hopefully your party defender is preventing it from getting to you.

Of course, the target could attack before moving, in which case it could move adjacent to you again after you smack it with Eldritch Strike. Even so, you could still shift away before using Eyebite again. This would result in you being closer to the target than you'd like, but you still wouldn't be provoking any OAs.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Eldritch Strike slides the target 1 square, which at level 1 removes you from the threatening reach of nearly every level-appropriate monster in the MM.

The rounds probably go something like this:

Your turn: Aegis and Curse active. Eyebite target to become invisible to target. Move if you like.

Target's turn: Since it can't see you and don't know which square you're in, it'll probably (move and) hit somebody else. If it hits, you can immediately teleport and attack using Eldritch Strike as an interrupt. Slide target 1 square away from you.

Your next turn: Eyebite target again to become invisible again (you're out of its reach so shouldn't provoke OA). Move your speed wherever you like.

Target's turn: It still can't see you. Even if you missed with your Eyebite, you're a good distance away and hopefully your party defender is preventing it from getting to you.

Of course, the target could attack before moving, in which case it could move adjacent to you again after you smack it with Eldritch Strike. Even so, you could still shift away before using Eyebite again. This would result in you being closer to the target than you'd like, but you still wouldn't be provoking any OAs.

There's one problem with using the party defender to keep him away from you.  YOU TOOK SWORDMAGE AND MARKED IT!!!!!
Other than that I love the idea.  I don't like the possibility of not hitting with eyebite, thus you are visible to him and he just goes after you and pounds you into the ground.  I'll add it.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
kylian
Joined Dec 1969
Yeah at level 1 it's pretty hard to ensure that the attack would hit. On the other hand, if you coordinated with your party you could arrange so that no one is adjacent to the target when it begins its turn (so it can't attack before moving), and also when you move you always move to a spot that guarantees the target will eat an OA from an ally if it tries to move-attack you.
Previous post, outdated
The revised basic Arcane Slasher is finally finished!

The Final numbers are:

269.8575/297.8575 (after a milestone)  without adding any cheese.
That should be enough to keep it at the top of the list while still being LLTBN (Least Likely to Be Nerfed).

Mark of Finding is present on the build, but is not essential to the dpr, it can easily be swapped out without any changes.

How embarrassing:

I forgot to include the White Lotus Riposte/Assault Slash auto-damage in my dpr calculations.

The true dpr of the basic Arcane Slasher is 297.8575/325.8575(after a milestone).
You can round that to 297.9/325.9(after a milestone) for less mess, if you prefer.

On the plus side, that means I'm only 2.15 points of damage away from breaking 300dpr in every encounter!

I think my next step is going to be trying to compose a version that eliminates white lotus master riposte and maybe even hybrid.  I don't think it's feasible without Radiant One, which means it'll always be keyed for Dragon, but at least I can try to eliminate any other "nerf me!" flags.  Do I get a prize if I can beat the ranger builds with just the Dragon flag?

After that I'll get cracking on a Brothers Grimm build.
Okay, I realize this is a triple post, but I've bumped up the Arcane Slasher's damage again, and it's gotten ridiculous:
549.072/584.072(after a milestone)

That surpasses all builds currently posted, including feychargers, with only the Long Night Feycharger doing more for 2/5 encounters (after a milestone the Slasher leaves it in the dust).  All this while still not adding any flags.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Okay, I realize this is a triple post, but I've bumped up the Arcane Slasher's damage again, and it's gotten ridiculous:
549.072/584.072(after a milestone)

That surpasses all builds currently posted, including feychargers, with only the Long Night Feycharger doing more for 2/5 encounters (after a milestone the Slasher leaves it in the dust).  All this while still not adding any flags.

Oh My Goodness.  I saw you oscilating on that item, being too much like bloodclaw, but in the end, for the sake of DPR and optimizers everywhere, you calculated it.  I do wonder what his DPR would be like pre-epic.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Oh My Goodness.  I saw you oscilating on that item, being too much like bloodclaw, but in the end, for the sake of DPR and optimizers everywhere, you calculated it.

I am such a humanitarian!  ;)

I do wonder what his DPR would be like pre-epic.

I have been slowly working on a pre-epic version.  It has so far come across several issues:
1. Feat starvation.  A fully functional version at 16 is problematic due to being short a couple feats.  I can get the mechanic working, but it gets barely any damage boosts, and is little better than a straight warlock feytouched.
2. Items.  The most important items for this build are the Planestrider Boots, the Eldritch Panoply, the Radiant Weapon and the various rods.  The rods work out, but the boots and the panoply are all level 18+ items.  Once we get to level 17 and can first pick up the boots, our slashes start to become dangerous: a move action to do 2 slashes, we split our aegis to match White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte with a slash and an Assault.  The Eldritch Panoply gives us a slash on our minor action, etc.
3.  Radiant Vulnerability is just weak at those levels, given how item-oriented it is.
4.  Slashes are weak without Radiant One.  It's the Radiant One's lvl21 feature that makes our slashes so obscenely dangerous, with a +int bonus to each slash AND taking advantage of radiant vulnerability with each.  It's easily worth 17 autodamage per slash.  Preepic, the most we can get out of our slashes is 6(con)+5(lasting frost) = 11 damage apiece.
5.  Missing is the bane of our slashes.  Without radiant damage on the slashes, missing with our charge means no frost vulnerability, which means we get a piddling 6 damage out of our slashes.

That said, the Shadowrift blade may do a lot to make up for things.  Shadow Warlock armor is functional at those levels, so combat advantage won't be terribly difficult, so we could see some good dpr based on the sheer number of slashes we get.  With a good source of temp hp, the build could be very good.  If we get enough temp hp, we might even look at dual-wielding shadowrift blades, giving us 4 extra slashes per hit.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Oh My Goodness.  I saw you oscilating on that item, being too much like bloodclaw, but in the end, for the sake of DPR and optimizers everywhere, you calculated it.

I am such a humanitarian!  ;)

I do wonder what his DPR would be like pre-epic.

I have been slowly working on a pre-epic version.  It has so far come across several issues:
1. Feat starvation.  A fully functional version at 16 is problematic due to being short a couple feats.  I can get the mechanic working, but it gets barely any damage boosts, and is little better than a straight warlock feytouched.
2. Items.  The most important items for this build are the Planestrider Boots, the Eldritch Panoply, the Radiant Weapon and the various rods.  The rods work out, but the boots and the panoply are all level 18+ items.  Once we get to level 17 and can first pick up the boots, our slashes start to become dangerous: a move action to do 2 slashes, we split our aegis to match White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte with a slash and an Assault.  The Eldritch Panoply gives us a slash on our minor action, etc.
3.  Radiant Vulnerability is just weak at those levels, given how item-oriented it is.
4.  Slashes are weak without Radiant One.  It's the Radiant One's lvl21 feature that makes our slashes so obscenely dangerous, with a +int bonus to each slash AND taking advantage of radiant vulnerability with each.  It's easily worth 17 autodamage per slash.  Preepic, the most we can get out of our slashes is 6(con)+5(lasting frost) = 11 damage apiece.
5.  Missing is the bane of our slashes.  Without radiant damage on the slashes, missing with our charge means no frost vulnerability, which means we get a piddling 6 damage out of our slashes.

That said, the Shadowrift blade may do a lot to make up for things.  Shadow Warlock armor is functional at those levels, so combat advantage won't be terribly difficult, so we could see some good dpr based on the sheer number of slashes we get.  With a good source of temp hp, the build could be very good.  If we get enough temp hp, we might even look at dual-wielding shadowrift blades, giving us 4 extra slashes per hit.

Go on and calculate DPR for a level 16 version if you bought the boots and simply scrimp on everything else.  I'll just add a note that you have a level 19 item.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Okay, I've finished the level 16 build and done the calculations:

The numbers

Charge Hit

8+7+3+1+1+3+2+1+2=28

Crit: .05  Hit: .85

MBA hit

8+7+3+3+2+2=25

Crit: .05 Hit: .7

Melee damage

4.5+7+3+3+2+2+5+7+5+2=40.5

Crit: 8+7+3+3+2+2+5+7+5+2+10.5(crit)+6(ring)=60.5

Slash damage

7(con)+5(frost)=12

Riposte damage

7+5+7+5=24

DPR

.05*(60.5+24)+.85*(40.5+24)+.05*(60.5+24)+.7*(40.5+24)=108.425

12+12+12=36

108.425+36=144.425 if he does not attack me.

144.425+24=168.425 if he does attack me.

That comes out to 144.425/168.425.
The reason for the split number is this:
At this level, White Lotus Riposte deals damage of the same type as the attack that set it up.  This means the Riposte deals Cold/Radiant damage, while our slashes deal only cold damage.  The Riposte then benefits from vulnerability, while the slash on our Assault does not.  This is an imbalance, and so we can only be certain to gain our mba in every case.  However, because the creature is both slowed and marked (-2 to hit), it will often decide to attack us anyway.  I make the game-theoretic assumption that if it's worth attacking us in a given round, it will almost always be worth attacking us.  Likewise, if it would rather shift+charge an ally, it will do so in the future.

So the first number is for creatures who would rather break away, the second is for creatures that would rather attack us.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
You should add the Long Night Feycharger to the Nova section as well.  Sure it's doable every round,  but 930 damage is still getting in range of the better nova builds.   :P
blahh
Joined Dec 1969
Just got a candidate for the level 12

Note that the initial DPR is somewhat conditionnal but post 6 has a DPR of only 65 (which is still pretty good) which does not require a riposte of any sort.

So how do I go about submitting a build? Does DPR have to be sustained for X amount of rounds to be calculated?

Matt James Freelance Game Designer Loremaster.org

borg285
Joined Dec 1969

So how do I go about submitting a build? Does DPR have to be sustained for X amount of rounds to be calculated?

Imagine if the fight went on for 247 rounds and somehow you were able to survive it.  Every round you should be able to do what?  That what's DPR is what you should be quoting.

Also go to the template entry section.  That should help you.  As per the keys they might be changing sometime today with the errata coming out
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
blahh
Joined Dec 1969
Here are a pair of builds at level 12. The first is as I would play it, the second is higher reliable DPR (if your DM's monsters are all really smart and never attack the warlock because they somehow know about white lotus riposte).

DPR with riposte: 115.74
DPR without riposte: 57.4

Build with Riposte

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Infernal striker, level 12

Githyanki, Warlock, Lyrandar Wind-Rider

Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution

Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact

Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (Dagger)

Background: Heretic (+2 to History)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES

Str 11, Con 22, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES

Str 10, Con 17, Dex 13, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 10.

AC: 25 Fort: 24 Reflex: 24 Will: 20

HP: 89 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS

Religion +16, Arcana +16, Thievery +13, History +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS

Acrobatics +8, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +12, Heal +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +6, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Athletics +6

FEATS

Level 1: Mark of Storm

Level 2: Arcane Implement Proficiency

Level 4: Implement Expertise (Light Blade)

Level 6: White Lotus Riposte

Level 8: Improved Initiative (retrained to Arcane Admixture at Level 12)

Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster

Level 11: Called Shot

Level 12: White Lotus Master Riposte

POWERS

Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast

Warlock encounter 1: Vampiric Embrace

Warlock daily 1: The Lash's Bite

Warlock utility 2: Fast Hands

Warlock encounter 3: Fiery Bolt

Warlock daily 5: Tyrannical Threat

Warlock utility 6: Dark One's Own Luck

Warlock encounter 7: Howl of Doom

Warlock daily 9: Feast of Souls

Warlock utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep

ITEMS

Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Subtle Dagger +3, Incisive Dagger Dagger +3, Shadow Warlock Leather Armor +2, Cloak of Translocation +2

DPR Calculations

Assumptions: the character always has concealment from shadow walk (and can teleport 4 meaning it would need consistent dazes or stuns to stop this). It also benefits from prime shot and will get attacked once by the enemy (easily achieved by sitting next to an enemy).

Hellish Rebuke hit bonus:

Hellish Rebuke damage (1 hit):

D6+6(Con)+3(Enhancement)+3(Offhand enhancement)+6(Storm Bonus Adept)+5(Called shot)+3(Subtle shot)=29.5 damage

Hellish Rebuke critical damage (1 hit):

3D6+6(max D6)+6(Con)+3(Enhancement)+3(Offhand enhancement)+6(Storm Bonus Adept)+5(Called shot)+3(Subtle shot)=42.5 damage

So, Hellish Rebuke vs Reflex 24:

5% crit

0.05*(Hellish Rebuke crit)*2(trigger secondary damage)=4.25

15% miss:

80% hit:

0.8*(Hellish Rebuke)*2(trigger secondary damage)=47.2

51.45 damage per Hellish Rebuke on average.

In each turn I get 1 Hellish Rebuke (Standard)+6 damage (Riposte)+Hellish Rebuke (Riposte Mastery)

Curse Damage: (1-0.15*0.15)*2D6=6.84

So DPR=6+2*51.45+6.84=115.74 with Riposte triggered

For a non-riposte turn, I get: 1 Hellish Rebuke:

Curse damage: 0.85*2D6=5.95

DPR=51.45+5.95=57.4

If you want the unavoidable route, here is the non-riposte build.

DPR: 64.55

Build

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Infernal striker, level 12
Githyanki, Warlock, Lyrandar Wind-Rider
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (Dagger)
Background: Heretic (+2 to History)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 22, Dex 15, Int 19, Wis 9, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 17, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10.

AC: 24 Fort: 24 Reflex: 23 Will: 20
HP: 89 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +15, Arcana +15, Thievery +13, History +19

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +12, Heal +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +6, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Athletics +6

FEATS
Level 1: Mark of Storm
Level 2: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 4: Implement Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 8: Improved Initiative (retrained to Arcane Admixture at Level 12)
Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 11: Called Shot

POWERS
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast
Warlock encounter 1: Vampiric Embrace
Warlock daily 1: The Lash's Bite
Warlock utility 2: Fast Hands
Warlock encounter 3: Fiery Bolt
Warlock daily 5: Tyrannical Threat
Warlock utility 6: Dark One's Own Luck
Warlock encounter 7: Howl of Doom
Warlock daily 9: Feast of Souls
Warlock utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep

ITEMS
Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Subtle Dagger +3, Incisive Dagger Dagger +3, Shadow Warlock Leather Armor +2, Cloak of Translocation +2

DPR Calculations

Assumptions: the character always has concealment from shadow walk (and can teleport 4 meaning it would need consistent dazes or stuns to stop this). It also benefits from prime shot and will get attacked once by the enemy (easily achieved by sitting next to an enemy).

Hellish Rebuke hit bonus:

Hellish Rebuke damage (1 hit):

D6+6(Con)+3(Enhancement)+3(Offhand enhancement)+6(Storm Bonus Adept)+5(Called shot)+3(Subtle shot)+2(Weapon Focus)=31.5 damage

Hellish Rebuke critical damage (1 hit):

3D6+6(max D6)+6(Con)+3(Enhancement)+3(Offhand enhancement)+6(Storm Bonus Adept)+5(Called shot)+3(Subtle shot)+2(Weapon Focus)=44.5 damage

So, Hellish Rebuke vs Reflex 24:

5% crit

0.05*((Hellish Rebuke crit)*2(trigger secondary damage)+12(curse))=5.05

10% miss:

85% hit:

0.85*((Hellish Rebuke)*2(trigger secondary damage)+2D6)=59.50

64.55 damage per Hellish Rebuke on average.

In each turn I get 1 Hellish Rebuke (Standard)

So DPR=64.55

Note that I am counting the trigger on all of these attacks because I can teleport 4 (including 10ft vertical) and take D10/2 damage (no prone due to catstep boots) to trigger Hellish Rebuke.

Figured those DPRs are worth mentionning, especially since against a DM who triggers white lotus the DPR goes through the roof.

Okay, Salve of Power, Draconic Spellcaster, any build that doubles up on Frost and Radiant, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, what else needs reviewing in the candidate builds?

For myself, the Arcane Slasher got off on the light end of things, the only issue I have to deal with is figuring out the radiant/frost unstackability.  Maybe this makes Paladin an even more desirable base for the Slasher.

Also regarding the key:

-Entries 0(weapliments) and 1(lasting frost+frost weapon) may no longer be warranted.

-Entries 2(typed damage bonuses granting keywords), 3(student of caiphon), =(salves of power), and ?(draconic spellcaster) appear to be negated.

-Entries 4(windrise ports),7(white lotus master riposte) and ^(feycharging) remain at large.

edit: I recommend adding an entry for Dancing Weapons.

borg285
Joined Dec 1969
refer to my first post where I enumerate elements that are typically DPR related.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Okay, Salve of Power, Draconic Spellcaster, any build that doubles up on Frost and Radiant, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, what else needs reviewing in the candidate builds?

For myself, the Arcane Slasher got off on the light end of things, the only issue I have to deal with is figuring out the radiant/frost unstackability.  Maybe this makes Paladin an even more desirable base for the Slasher.

Any build that uses Echoes of Thunder in it with multi-attacks will have a big hit for dpr as well.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
I guess all of us that beat the sub-conscious rule that bonuses from the same source stack out of our head need be cordial and re-invite it in.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Almost all the paragon and epic builds went into the bin, mostly because of salve of power, lasting frost, and radiant+cold.  Wow this changes things.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5206 Posts
Do the lasting frost changes actually affect the Storm Warden?  I didn't think so from my first read of the update.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Do the lasting frost changes actually affect the Storm Warden?  I didn't think so from my first read of the update.

Isn't he reliant on lasting frost?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Actually, come to think of it, now that we have ca without radiant advantage, we might not need radiant weapon anymore.  We still meet the qualifications for Radiant One, which still gives us radiant damage tacked onto everything, which benefits from vulnerability...swapping for a subtle weapon will allow us to get the same dpr without worrying about the stacking loss.

Yeah, consider it done.  I think you can safely take the Arcane Slasher out of the nerfed bin.  I still need to recalculate for switching Ankhmon's bracers out for Iron Armbands of Power, but I don't think it'll affect dpr all that much (gain .5 damage on hits but lose 4 on crits, I think it'll be a wash)

edit: that's actually a gain of .7197 dpr for switching to Iron armbands.  Go ahead and pull the Slasher out of the nerfed bin.

Looks like I didn't lose anything :P
Mengu74
Joined Dec 1969
Isn't he reliant on lasting frost?

The update does not affect single target attacks at all.

blahh
Joined Dec 1969
want to put my Thunder warlock in the lvl 12 bracket ? It beats the post nerf builds by a fair bit.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Thank you for that clarification.  I'll work on them.  At work now so it'll have to be in the inbetween times.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I don't think you can chuck builds which use two weapons to impose radiant and frost into the bin (eg. Storminglord).  The recent errata has not changed the fact that using both a radiant and frost weapon with twin strike gives the power both keywords.
I don't think you can chuck builds which use two weapons to impose radiant and frost into the bin (eg. Storminglord).  The recent errata has not changed the fact that using both a radiant and frost weapon with twin strike gives the power both keywords.

No, it wouldn't throw it into the nerf bin, but its new DPR would need to be figured out, since only half of your attacks are going to be cold and the other half radiant. The recent errata has changed it to where when you attack with the frost weapon, it gains the Cold keywaor, and only the Cold Keyword for element based keywords, and then switched to Radiant for the radiant weapon.

So when hitting with the frost weapon, you don't gain any of the benefits or abilities that require the radiant keyword, and vice versa when hitting with the radiant weapon.

No, it wouldn't throw it into the nerf bin, but its new DPR would need to be figured out, since only half of your attacks are going to be cold and the other half radiant. The recent errata has changed it to where when you attack with the frost weapon, it gains the Cold keywaor, and only the Cold Keyword for element based keywords, and then switched to Radiant for the radiant weapon.

So when hitting with the frost weapon, you don't gain any of the benefits or abilities that require the radiant keyword, and vice versa when hitting with the radiant weapon.

As I have said previously the power still has both keywords and so all abilities and benefits that rely on a power having a keyword - including Lasting Frost and Burning Radiance - still work.

So I don't need to worry about keywords at all - it is only the damage types that I need to be concerned with. Pervasive Light allows me to activate radiant vulnerability on a non-radiant attack - so that accounts for the frost weapon.   I use a Frozen Whetstone on the radiant weapon to activate the cold vulnerability.  I'm not totally sure how this would work with the radiant power of the weapon (but it hasn't been changed by the errata anyhow!).
I wonder why the feycharger was moved to the nerfed bin ? Loss of Ankhmon's reduced damage to below 1000 DPR, but its still pretty close (948 currently)...
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to be safe and encourage people to recalculate their DPR.  Later today I'll take a closer look at the nerf bin and replace all those that relied on lasting frost as I thought their DPR would change.  I'll also replace the storminglord as I can see that with a small shuffle you can maintain your DPR.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
auspex7
Joined Dec 1969
My Avenger/Student of Caiphon/Sage of Ages + Rending Urgrosh died a horrible death. I'm OK with that, though...

This guy is better.

Human (Pursuit) Avenger/Ardent Champion/Sage of Ages...with Rending Urgrosh
...and he's extremely practical. Anyone could use this at an actual gaming table and be a happy camper.

level 30
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
ICameToBringPain, level 30
Human, Avenger, Ardent Champion, Sage of Ages
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Background: Occupation - Criminal (Thievery class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 15, Wis 26, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 10.

AC: 47 Fort: 42 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 201 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 50

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +29, Athletics +21, Religion +29, Thievery +28, Stealth +28, Perception +29

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +22, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +29, Endurance +16, Heal +23, History +23, Insight +23, Intimidate +16, Nature +29, Streetwise +16

FEATS
Learned Spellcaster: Ritual Caster
Human: Learned Spellcaster
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Urgrosh)
Level 2: Power of Skill
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 8: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 10: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 11: Painful Oath
Level 12: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 14: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 22)
Level 16: Justice Hammer
Level 18: Invigorating Pursuit (retrained to Punishing Radiance at Level 21)
Level 20: Pervasive Light
Level 21: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 24: Triumphant Attack
Level 26: Epic Fortitude
Level 28: Divine Mastery
Level 30: Epic Resurgence

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Retribution
Bonus At-Will Power: Avenging Shackles
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Distracting Flare
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Aspect of Agility
Avenger encounter 7: Chains of Censure
Avenger daily 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger utility 10: Wings of Vengeance
Avenger encounter 13: Avenger's Demand (replaces Angelic Alacrity)
Avenger daily 15: Aspect of Fury (replaces Menacing Presence)
Avenger utility 16: Astral Cloak
Avenger encounter 17: Vengeful Parry (replaces Chains of Censure)
Avenger daily 19: Stroke of Doom (replaces Blade of Repulsion)
Avenger utility 22: Twin Step
Avenger encounter 23: Threatening Strike (replaces Avenger's Demand)
Avenger daily 25: Wings of Pursuit (replaces Aspect of Might)
Avenger daily 29: Final Oath (replaces Stroke of Doom)

ITEMS
Rending Urgrosh +6, Dawn Warrior Starweave Armor +6, Symbol of Divine Light +5, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Crown of the Brilliant Sun (paragon tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Radiance (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Bond of Retribution

+34 vs AC, 2d12+40

Attack Breakdown:
+15, 1/2 Level
+8, Wisdom
+3, feat bonus- Expertise
+2, Proficiency
+6, enhancement

Accuracy Considerations:
Oath of Enmity
Keeper's Prescience pre-roll
"+2" (target -2 to all defenses until end of encounter) on any attack after a crit, Triumphant Attack
CA on any attack between a crit and end of next turn (target Dazed, Justice Hammer)

Damage Breakdown:
+8, Wisdom
+8, Wisdom- Painful Oath
+6, enhancement
+3, feat bonus- Weapon Focus
+1, TWF
+3, set bonus, 3-piece "Gifts for the Queen" set (untyped)
+6, item bonus- Iron Armbands of Power

Damage Considerations:
Roll all Radiant attack damage rolls twice, using higher. Ring of the Radiant Storm

"To-Crit" Considerations:
Oath of Enmity
Keeper's Prescience pre-roll "Triple Roll"
Holy Ardor. Matching "hit" rolls = crit.
Hand of Divine Guidance. 19, 20 = crit.

On-Crit Considerations:
--target gains vuln 15 Radiant (10- Punishing Radiance, 5, Symbol of Divine Light)
--Daze, Justice Hammer.
--generate (main hand) Overwhelming Strike, Rending. effectively: +38 vs AC, 2d12+39
--generate (off hand) Overwhelming Strike, Two-Weapon Opening. effectively: +38 vs AC, 2d6+38
--generate (main hand) Overwhelming Strike, Ardent Fury. effectively: +38 vs AC, 2d12+39

Due to math well beyond my ability, I haven't got the chops to calc the exact DPR. Keeper's Prescience adds a LOT of mud to this build's math.

In order to model what you can expect with this, I roll-tested 40 'turns' worth of attack rolls. The results are in the following Sblock.

Whoa

Turns (equals Bond of Retribution attack count): 40
Bond of Retribution (non-crit) hits: 23
Bond of Retribution Crits: 16
Bond of Retribution misses: 1
Bond of Retribution crit %: 40*

Overwhelming Strike attacks generated: 48
Overwhelming Strike (non-crit) hits: 29
Overwhelming Strike crits: 14
Overwhelming Strike misses: 5
Overwhelming Strike crit %: 29*

Total hit %: 93.1
Total crit %: 34*

*it is noteworthy that the nature of Keeper's Prescience is such that the crit rate is higher on the first attack of each turn, which is obviously where you need the crits to be in order to generate your 3 OS attacks, as well as setting up all of the radiant-crit goodies.

Fun DPR facts:
--using nothing but average, non-crit damage and the base hit rate, the build would be putting out over 106 DPR.
--assuming the enemy saves against Font of Radiance on the first try *every* try, (ie, adding FoR as 20.5 damage per occurance), the resulting bump is +8.2
--the 30 applications of 6d6, *not counting Ring of the Radiant Storm*, equate to a bump of +15.75 DPR.
--30 applications of Ring of Giants = +9 DPR over 40 turns.

Since these are all very cautious assumptions, and since we haven't factored in Ring of the Radiant Storms, 'extra' doses of Font of Radiance + Punishing Radiance, etc...

my conservative estimate of the build's actual At-Will DPR is 140... though the actual DPR likely exceeds 150.
Hey, borg, just wanted to let you know I've updated the Pit Fighter build to be at peace with the errata (and as mentioned before, just about nothing related to the Stormwarden changed). It has novas at all the levels you asked for, and you can find them here. Note that the novas are in a separate post: I ran out of post count.
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton Also known as: LDB. Got questions on how to build characters for 4E? Check out the Complete Collection of Character Build Links for some advice. My 4E CharOp Threads:
Eldritch Strike slides the target 1 square, which at level 1 removes you from the threatening reach of nearly every level-appropriate monster in the MM.

The rounds probably go something like this:

Your turn: Aegis and Curse active. Eyebite target to become invisible to target. Move if you like.

Target's turn: Since it can't see you and don't know which square you're in, it'll probably (move and) hit somebody else. If it hits, you can immediately teleport and attack using Eldritch Strike as an interrupt. Slide target 1 square away from you.

Your next turn: Eyebite target again to become invisible again (you're out of its reach so shouldn't provoke OA). Move your speed wherever you like.

Target's turn: It still can't see you. Even if you missed with your Eyebite, you're a good distance away and hopefully your party defender is preventing it from getting to you.

Of course, the target could attack before moving, in which case it could move adjacent to you again after you smack it with Eldritch Strike. Even so, you could still shift away before using Eyebite again. This would result in you being closer to the target than you'd like, but you still wouldn't be provoking any OAs.

Swordmage Aegis is a react not an interrupt
ender142
Joined Dec 1969
My Avenger/Student of Caiphon/Sage of Ages + Rending Urgrosh died a horrible death. I'm OK with that, though...

This guy is better.

Human (Pursuit) Avenger/Ardent Champion/Sage of Ages...with Rending Urgrosh
...and he's extremely practical. Anyone could use this at an actual gaming table and be a happy camper.

Nice build... I like it a lot.  Remember that now you have to actually hit when you roll pairs to crit, otherwise you miss (March errata).

If you assume that you would hit on a 9 or better, which is probably pretty reasonable, you would have a 33.75% chance to crit with this build when including the extra d20, which is even better than the old Student of Caiphon build for Avengers, as you said.  That is until you apply the extra d20 though... after that your crit chance is 22.5% for any other attacks that round.  The crit chance goes up with a higher attack bonus, so a way to easily get CA or debuff AC would be nice.

The extra attacks on a crit with radiant vuln and pervasive light are money.  I was considering a Morninglord build, but may go with this one instead.
auspex7
Joined Dec 1969
My Avenger/Student of Caiphon/Sage of Ages + Rending Urgrosh died a horrible death. I'm OK with that, though...

This guy is better.

Human (Pursuit) Avenger/Ardent Champion/Sage of Ages...with Rending Urgrosh
...and he's extremely practical. Anyone could use this at an actual gaming table and be a happy camper.

Nice build... I like it a lot.  Remember that now you have to actually hit when you roll pairs to crit, otherwise you miss (March errata).

If you assume that you would hit on a 9 or better, which is probably pretty reasonable, you would have a 33.75% chance to crit with this build when including the extra d20, which is even better than the old Student of Caiphon build for Avengers, as you said.  That is until you apply the extra d20 though... after that your crit chance is 22.5% for any other attacks that round.  The crit chance goes up with a higher attack bonus, so a way to easily get CA or debuff AC would be nice.

The extra attacks on a crit with radiant vuln and pervasive light are money.  I was considering a Morninglord build, but may go with this one instead.

Yup, it was put together keeping in mind that you had to hit to qualify for Holy Ardor. Thanks for telling me the actual crit%. I was within a couple points with my guesses, but didn't know for sure.

The build should actually retain a higher crit rate than the old Avenger/SoC/SoA, because the MBAs generated by the SoC didn't benefit from the 18-20 crit rate at all. The Ardent Champion mechanic & Hand of Divine Guidance are actually superior for the MBAs.

Re: CA and debuffing AC-- Justice Hammer (Daze until EONT) and Triumphant Attack do just that-- and thankfully, Triumphant Attack actually debuffs until the end of the encounter.

The scary thing with this build is that, while Punishing Radiance & Font of Radiance require Radiant attacks to trigger, the machine gun effect happens whenever you crit on an attack. So...

Turn 1:

(Standard) Bond of Retribution

(Immediate-- note that this is no longer your turn, so you can trigger the MBAs) Strikebacks

Turn 2:

(standard) Bond of Retribution
--Timeless Locket, or Action Point-- (standard) Bond of Retribution

(Immediate) Vengeful Parry

Turn 3:

(standard) Threatening Strike

then... Threatening Strike rider.

Basically, you've got this crazy chance to trigger insanity, and you have the ability to multi-attack early in each encounter.
sn0wm4n
Joined Dec 1969
On Turn 2, you really have to go for Action Point, because Timeless Locket can no longer be used to attack.
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5206 Posts
The build should actually retain a higher crit rate than the old Avenger/SoC/SoA, because the MBAs generated by the SoC didn't benefit from the 18-20 crit rate at all. The Ardent Champion mechanic & Hand of Divine Guidance are actually superior for the MBAs.

This is why all my SoC builds wielded lightsabers...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima