Dungeon & Warcraft

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This is a continuation of a thread found in the "What's a DM to do?" section of the boards, feel free to comment as you see fit:

{Original thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...}

58402108 wrote:
60115868 wrote:
58402108 wrote:
Though shifting around everyone's schedule to fit around his video game schedule is more than ridiculous.



And I disagree. D&D is a game, just like WoW is, with no more or less obligation then a real-life game or a digital one.



Try playing D&D with no friends, not so easy. WoW works wonders in that situation though.

Even if they are both games, to ask everyone to change their schedules because you want to play a video game is ridiculous, and inconsiderate. If you cannot step away from your computer for a night to spend it with your friends then you need to get a life, a real life not a digital one.



58402108 wrote:
60115868 wrote:
Asking someone to change their schedule {for any reason} so that you could go out and play D&D, is just as likely looked down on as "ridiculous", as your assertion of WoW is. And saying that people who play WoW do not game with their friends, is a huge over-generalization. But I digress, this isn't the place to discuss the semantics of D&D and WoW as imagination games, that's a thread for somewhere else.

Care to join me in the OTT to discuss it?



I think that you have missed the point. He is asking real people to rearrange their real lives so that he can play a game, it does not matter that they are gathering to play a game or not, they could be gathering at a bar to drink (but then it would hardly matter if he was there or not), or gather to start a revolution, whatever. He is asking them to change their lives so he can play a game that does not affect the others. If he had to watch his daughter or had to go to class these things are different, he can stop playing WoW with no adverse affect on his life whatsoever, stop watching your daughter or going to class and you are affecting your life in a negative way.

edit start up the OTT thread and I will discuss if you think it is necessary.



Response so far:

{Note: I'm not harking on you, Baphogoat, we just see things in a very different light is all. No harm meant okay?!}

No, I'm not missing the point. I feel that at this point, you are simply misunderstanding and mislabeling MMORPGers, making comments like "real people play D&D". So, those individuals who play imagination games {like D&D}, but do it online, are not "real people" as you say it?

WoW is a game, just like D&D is, with real people, playing with real time, in the real world, with real friends, and real emotional investment. Just like any "real D&D player" as you say. Rearranging your schedule for D&D is just as "ridiculous" as having someone rearrange their life for WoW, despite how you may feel differently.

As a side note, I too dislike MMORPG's, I'd much rather play with people around a table then around a computer screen. On my hand though, I do not let my personal bias affect the way I view those people who do enjoy MMORPGs. They are people, just like you and me. They just play the game a different way.
I'll be offline until tomorrow, so don't think that I'm snubbing you! I'll respond to any comments you make ASAP, whenever I get the chance. I do enjoy a good solid conversation {argument, debate}. It keeps the blood pressure down.
... I'm confused.

It's a hobby.  People schedule their time to accomadate their hobbies, whether it be gaming (board, video, card, etc...), mountain biking, wrestling, bird-watching or whatever.  If they want other people to join in, then they try to arrange their time so they can do these things together.

The activity doesn't matter.  It's time management, and making time for fun.  What's the point of contention?
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
My point was that it does not matter what you are doing with your friends.  Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness.

 "Guys, I like to play [insert video game of your choice] 4 days a week, and game night just happens to be one of those nights.  Can you all rearrange you work/school/home schedules so I can play my game?"

"No.  You are welcome to play with us on that night and we would love to have you but if you have better things to do, go for it."

edit I apprecaite you respectful manner, and I do not feel that you are harking on me in any way.  I enjoy a good back and forth as well, and do not taking anything personally in these forums because, I'll be honest with you, I dont care what others on the internet say unless they say it well or with style.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
My point was that it does not matter what you are doing with your friends.  Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness.



It may also be the height of ludicrousness to ask your friends to obligate themselves to a game to the exclusion of all else. An MMO is a group activity, and the people you game with on an MMO are often friends as well. So, it's ridiculous to try to reschedule a game with friends because of another game with friends?

Seriously, an MMO is a group activity. We aren't talking about siting in front of the SNES to play Street Fighter II here.

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A few of my players feel that the difference between MMO and RPG is that the "guildmates are not going to help you move, drive you to work, simply be there for you when real life happens" some of them are just off put that people from around the world that are never really met in person are seemingly rated as having more valuable time than the friends that are physically present in someone's life.

From the studies I have read dealing with the issue of "virtual relationships," the friendships formed online can be just as strong and meaningful as those formed offline. That the person in question values the online relationships is not so surprising to me.


I don't particularly value online relationships myself, but they are a great outlet for a wide variety of people who find it difficult in the "real world" to form relationships for whatever reason. I'd rather game with people face-to-face, but for some the online version is as good or better.

Resident jark. Resident Minister of Education and Misinformation.
WoW groups tend to be alot larger than D&D groups. Asking 3-5 friends you know in real life if it is possible to change which night of the week you game on makes more sense, as 5 people are much more likely to be able to do so. The odds that all 60 people in your raiding party will be able to change the night on which they game together is much smaller. It dosn't become a matter of 'these group takes presedence" untill both groups say no. Then, and only then, the person in question has to choose. I could see being insulted because a friend decided to play with the Wow group instead of with you, but not because they asked if the game could be schedueled diffrently.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
I agree with Lhockee (and others). There really is not as big of a difference between reserving a night for DnD and reserving a night for WoW. While I like to make fun of my brother for "having to go and raid", I know it really isn't that different than how I "have to play DnD".

For a while, my DnD group tried to play DnD online. It had its issues, so we tried to play various other online games (Starcraft and GuildWars come to mind). So for a stretch of several weeks, we played GuildWars every Tuesday (or was it Monday) night and it was pretty much the same flow as if we were playing DnD. We'd joke around and talk about our lives. Its really not a huge difference.

The problem just arises when you have to chose between a MMO and a DnD group. Then the group could feel hurt if they are friends from "real life". But maybe the player just prefers the MMO or really thinks its easier to move the DnD day. But I can definitely understand if it appears that the player in question commits much more time to the MMO.

But conceptually, its very similar in my opinion.
My point was that it does not matter what you are doing with your friends.  Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness.


No, it's not. It is no more the "height of ridiculousness" than asking a game to be rescheduled for any other conflicting personal reason. He is free to ask, the others are free to say no. The reason for asking is relatively immaterial.

Without knowing the whole background, I would assume the reason the player feels he needs to play WoW over D&D  at that time is that there is a dungeon/raid scheduled. That means anywhere from 9 to 39 other real people - all with "probably busy schedules" - have agreed upon this date and time and are relying on this player to be there and do his part. When you factor in both the large number of players - and the added difficulty of players in different time zones, countries and even continents - it is generally much harder to reschedule a WoW raid than a D&D game.

I know all about "busy schedules". My current D&D group has 10 players and getting them all together at one time can be a nightmare. We're lucky if we can get together once a month. I have had to miss the last two sessions because of personal reasons. Because of that I don't feel it is fair that anyone make concessions to me or my schedule and so I will not give input into when our next game date should be. If the group reaches a consensus then the game is a go whether I can make it or not. That is my choice.

When I played WoW I too faced the problem of D&D and WoW conflicting. Most of the time I opted for D&D, but on a couple of occasions I had to say that a certain date was a no-go for D&D cos of a prior WoW commitment. And yes, when you have so many other people relaying on your, particularly if you fulfill a key role like Tank or Healer, then it is just as much a commitment as anything else.

My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.

That you do not understand or respect the player's situation is clear, but to deride it as "the height of ridiculousness" is dismissive and rude and says much more about your lack of understanding than anything to do with the player of whom you are so critical.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.

Well if its a small group (say 4 PCs), it sometimes is easier to reschedule than to play shorthanded. That's kind of how my group works. If we know in advance, we often skip a week. If its last minute (like we're all together already), we try to play shorthanded.
My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.

Well if its a small group (say 4 PCs), it sometimes is easier to reschedule than to play shorthanded. That's kind of how my group works. If we know in advance, we often skip a week. If its last minute (like we're all together already), we try to play shorthanded.


True. Let me rephrase it to be more accurate to what I meant: If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then that commitment should take precedence.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
I think asking the group to reschedule is a little out there.  I've been playing with the same core group of guys for 19 years.  We've had different D&D days over the course of our gaming days, but right now our D&D night is Sunday.  The reason is so that those of us that like to go out on Friday and Saturday night can without issue.  I also hunt with my father, brother and friends and I've been doing that for 19 years, too.  During certain times of year and thanks to my brother's schedule, hunting and D&D can conflict.  When that happens, I don't ask anyone to change - see, the groups have already set a time that they can all make it for - I'm the odd man out.  I simply make a decision.  For certain months during the fall, I miss D&D.  Time spent in the woods with my family takes precedence (for me) over time spent in the basement with my friends (though they pretty much qualify as family, too).  That's just how it is.  I don't ask them to hold off and wait 'till I tag out.  That isn't right.  I just miss, the game goes on and I come back when I'm ready.  ASking to be excused and asking the whole shebang to be rescheduled around you are two very different things - no matter the reason behind the request.  If you're the one that can't make it, it's on you to deal.  It's your life that's keeping you out, not the group's.  Take ownership of that. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

editI appreciate you respectful manner, and I do not feel that you are harking on me in any way.  I enjoy a good back and forth as well, and do not taking anything personally in these forums because, I'll be honest with you, I don't care what others on the internet say unless they say it well or with style.



Well, good thing I think the same way then! While I enjoy a good sparring match myself, it seems that others have taken to wanting to discuss the matter in question as well. In which case I'll pop in for the odd comment, here and there, and let others continue on as they will. Excellent.
Asking to reschedule isn't all that bad. Demanding the game be rescheduled is.

If you have a (recurring) conflict with your group and you enjoy playing with them, you can always ask them if they are willing to move the game to another day. If such isn't possible, you can still decide not to show up. There's nothing strange about that.

It happens from time to time in my group that we move the session because one player has something come up and can't make it. We move things forward or backwards a day, if that's possible. But if it's not, the player will accept that he can't make it and we play without him/her and that's that.
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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Asking to reschedule isn't all that bad. Demanding the game be rescheduled is.


True.  But that's true regardless of the conflict.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Obviously. That's why I didn't mention the reasons from the OP, my post would be the same regardless of why the player could no longer come to the game.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
WoW groups tend to be alot larger than D&D groups. Asking 3-5 friends you know in real life if it is possible to change which night of the week you game on makes more sense, as 5 people are much more likely to be able to do so. The odds that all 60 people in your raiding party will be able to change the night on which they game together is much smaller. It dosn't become a matter of 'these group takes presedence" untill both groups say no. Then, and only then, the person in question has to choose. I could see being insulted because a friend decided to play with the Wow group instead of with you, but not because they asked if the game could be schedueled diffrently.



From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords.  Using this logic you must never get out of the house.  You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in.  I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you.  And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group.  WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again.  You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends.  Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans.  There is a reason that the gamer stereotype is not a good one, and their social skills are one of the facets that give them such a bad name, and unfortunately it is often true.  Human to human interaction trumps human to machine to avatar to avatar to machine to human interaction any and every day.

you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL.  I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask.  These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen.  They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?  Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

As an aside, I have a curiosity, Baphogoat {if I may}; What, exactly, about MMORPGs do you find so distasteful? As I mentioned myself, I dislike them as well, but I have no personal bias against them as you seemingly do. Did you have a horrible personal experience with an MMORPG {or one of It's players} and so feel slighted and distrust them? Or is there a darker reason for your intense dislike of digital games?

They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?


I'm sorry, but if you stopped playing D&D, what effect would that have on yours or anybody else's life?  It's a game.  It's not serious business, it's just a game.

I mean, calling up at the last minute and saying "can we do this some other time" is a **** move, no argument there, but it's a **** move regardless of the reason.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Baphogoat:

What if the people you play online games with are your real friends. I used to play GuildWars with my old high school friends. They all lived over an hour away from me so we had a "gaming" night were we all caught up and had a good time. (Example in my post above.) The friend that moved the furthest away said it really made him feel like part of the group again.

Also, when I played WoW, I was in a guild which the members where friends from work. Now out of the 20-40 people, I probably only knew about 10 well, but they were still people I knew in "real life".

I think you are making a distinction between "real life" gaming and "online" gaming which does not have to exist.

Although, your point that about how much you affect the group is a good one. 1 out of 30 is hardly an issue and the raid presumably can go on. But 1 out of 5 or 6 can sometimes ruin a game. And if the player is consistantly choosing one game over the other, you should talk to the player and determine if he really wants to continue gaming with your group.
They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?


I'm sorry, but if you stopped playing D&D, what effect would that have on yours or anybody else's life?  It's a game.  It's not serious business, it's just a game.

I mean, calling up at the last minute and saying "can we do this some other time" is a **** move, no argument there, but it's a **** move regardless of the reason.



You're right it is a game, and so I dont ask others to change their lives based off me wanting to play this game, let alone a game that people play and can play everyday, anytime at home.  I never claimed that me playing D&D or stopping playing would affect others life's...but now that you have asked: my group would merely have to go through the process of replacing me as DM, one of the members would have to find another ride to the session, and they would need to find another table as my table would be going with me.  Nothing to big unless they cannot find a suitable replacement as DM.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

As an aside, I have a curiosity, Baphogoat {if I may}; What, exactly, about MMORPGs do you find so distasteful? As I mentioned myself, I dislike them as well, but I have no personal bias against them as you seemingly do. Did you have a horrible personal experience with an MMORPG {or one of It's players} and so feel slighted and distrust them? Or is there a darker reason for your intense dislike of digital games?



It is just personal opinion, but I find them extremely boring and mind numbing.  Some I have found entertaining for a little while but I quickly lost interest.  Just not my style.  and to expand on an earlier post I have dealt with players who have in the past made commitments to D&D and not shown up giving lame excuses, and then we find them online.  If you can not make your real life commitments, be it a game group, work, hanging with your real friends or whatever it may be then there is an issue.  this may not be the case for the majority of gamers but it is by no means an isolated incident. 

My reasoning behind not enjoying these games:  you play the game to be better at playing the game, there does not seem to be much point of it after that.  hit the button, hit the button, hit the button better.  Sure you might 'socialize' with others, but is it worth giving up meeting people in an actual setting to meet someone in a digital one?  I dont think it is a good trade off, and to try and force others to manipulate their lives around a game that you are essentially sitting at home alone playing doesn't work for me.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Scypio,
I think that this is fine (as if it matters what I think), and may be a good way to interact with your friends that you can not easily see.  But to put off your other friends and other aspects of your life because 60 nearly random people expect you to dedicate days of you life to this game is crossing a line.  I would not change our groups sessions for something like this, and would ask the player to make the choice between giving up one of his 4 nights of WoW a week or this weekly game of D&D, that way we can move on and find another player, that does not have the same 'demands' on his time.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
You're right it is a game, and so I dont ask others to change their lives based off me wanting to play this game, let alone a game that people play and can play everyday, anytime at home.


... but you do exactly that.  Everytime you schedule a game, you're asking people to change their lives based on what you want.  That's kinda the nature of scheduling something.  Getting everyone to agree to change their lives in the same way.

Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]


From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords.  Using this logic you must never get out of the house.  You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in.  I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you.  And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group.  WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again.


I get the feeling I am talking to myself. I fail to see how attempting to find a schedueling solution that allows you to spend time with both groups somehow makes you an antisocial troglodyte. From the attitude you seem to be displaying, it does not apear that you would miss the person much either if you take the simple act of discussing a schedule change as such a personal affront and seem to have such a negative opinion of his other hobbies and what that says about him as a person.

You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends.  Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans.


A choice that was not made. The situation, as I read it, was that they where attempting to find a way to not have to chose between the two, looking for a way to do two things they enjoy.

you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL.  I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask.  These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen.  They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?  Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.



And how would they know what is and is not more convenient for you or anyone else unless they ask? You have yet to demonstrate how discussing change is so personally offensive. The reason for the change is irrelevant.

A: "Hey, i would prefeer to play on day Z instead of X, is that possible?"
B: "Yah, Z is good for me."
C: "Mabey I could make it on Z, but I would prefeer X."
D:"I would like to play on Z, but I'm not sure if I can. Let me think about it for a bit and check my schedule."
E: *shrug* "It's all the same to me."

That does not seem a particularly painful or insulting conversation to me.
I get the feeling I am talking to myself. I fail to see how attempting to find a schedueling solution that allows you to spend time with both groups somehow makes you an antisocial troglodyte.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Toasted,
The fact of the matter is that the group has already had the discussion of when to hold game, and they had made their decision.  So either 1)This player was already involved in his raiding and was aware of the conflict that would be involved or 2)The player later got involved in his raiding knowing full well that it was in conflict with his game group.  whether he expects the group to change to fit his video gaming schedule I dont know, but what I am saying is that he should not expect this as his other gaming decisions are just that: his.  It was not his boss deciding to change his work schedule or him having his kids on a certain day, it is him deciding to play another game.  He is free to make this decision but to expect that the rest of the group to change their schedules because of his decision is ridiculous.

The fact that it is an online game really makes no difference, and because of my obvious dislike of those style of games people have become defensive or something akin to that.  This is because I often like to play devil's advocate and voice my opinion in a more extreme manner than I actually hold.  But the fact stays the same, it is his decision to play WoW or D&D, if it was me I would have to put serious consideration to make any changes based of his choice to play another.

And what happens when his raids change days? He is already playing 4 nights a week, what is stopping him from changing nights or going on more raids, further disrupting the game session?  Nothing, that's what.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
he fact of the matter is that the group has already had the discussion of when to hold game, and they had made their decision.


A decision probably reached by compromise and convienence. Not a holy mandate set in stone. They have probably come to other decisisons as well in the past, like what system to play and what is brougth by whom; I fail to see how discussing a change in scheduling is diffrent from discussing a change in system or in what kind of soda is brought.

So either 1)This player was already involved in his raiding and was aware of the conflict that would be involved or 2)The player later got involved in his raiding knowing full well that it was in conflict with his game group.



So, in the case of option 2;
WoW Player: "Hey, want to raid with us? We raid on night X."
DnD Player: "Hmm, I don't know. I hang out with friends on that night usually. Let me see if anyone wants to rescheduel that."

Still not seeing the insult or inpropriety.

And what happens when his raids change days? He is already playing 4 nights a week, what is stopping him from changing nights or going on more raids, further disrupting the game session?  Nothing, that's what.



So? Nothing wrong with that.
If the group dosn't mind frequently changing their gaming scheduel, no problem. If they say they cannot or will not change it, then the player in question has to choose one or the other. I still do not see the problem.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.  The player has left game early many times to raid.  They set up a webcam as a one time emergency, and now he insists on playing by webcam every session while claiming he has household chores when it is obvious that he is doing it so he can play WoW while at the same time being to distracted to add anything useful to the D&D game, and in fact is doing quite the opposite.  And now that they are finally telling him that the webcam doesn't work for them and was meant to be a one time thing he is trying to move the game to a different night.  If you dont see it now then you are a blind man.

Sincerely,
Baphogoat.

p.s. Not to mention that he raids mon-thurs nights.  Would it be ridiculous if you were in a game group that demanded you be there to game every day of the week?  The answer is yes.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.


Well, yes.  We're discussing this from what's been said here, as this is where we joined the conversation.

That stuff you said?  That's not stuff we knew.  And quite frankly, that's not a problem of WoW, that's a problem of someone being a ****.  And like I said earlier, a **** move is a **** move, whatever the reason.

The problem isn't WoW, it's a player being a ****.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.  The player has left game early many times to raid.  They set up a webcam as a one time emergency, and now he insists on playing by webcam every session while claiming he has household chores when it is obvious that he is doing it so he can play WoW while at the same time being to distracted to add anything useful to the D&D game, and in fact is doing quite the opposite.  And now that they are finally telling him that the webcam doesn't work for them and was meant to be a one time thing he is trying to move the game to a different night.  If you dont see it now then you are a blind man.

Sincerely,
Baphogoat.

p.s. Not to mention that he raids mon-thurs nights.  Would it be ridiculous if you were in a game group that demanded you be there to game every day of the week?  The answer is yes.



*shrug*
None of that was mentioned here. Only thing that was said is that someone trying to get their gaming group to play on a diffrent night because they wanted to play a computer game was a horrible thing. Frankly, given what you have now said, asking to move the game should have been the first thing done, not the last

It rather appears that said person, well, isn't all that interested in the game and would much rather be playing WoW. Perhapes the only reason he continues to try and be in the group at all is because he feels (correctly I think) that his leaving the group to have more time to spend playing WoW would hurt some group members feelings. These seem more like the actions of a person being compelled to play D&D, not someone who wants to play D&D.

Edit: A game group that Demanded I do much of anything is rather ridiculous. Aside from behaving properly in the home or other local and behave in accordance with the law, a game group is in no position to make demands of its members. It is also under no obligation to retain members.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.


Well, yes.  We're discussing this from what's been said here, as this is where we joined the conversation.

That stuff you said?  That's not stuff we knew.  And quite frankly, that's not a problem of WoW, that's a problem of someone being a ****.  And like I said earlier, a **** move is a **** move, whatever the reason.

The problem isn't WoW, it's a player being a ****.



I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does..  Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input.  Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does..  Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input.  Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.



*Gasp*
Someone responded in a thread to talk about what was posted in that thread? Instead of going to read a thread that was deemed an inapropriate location for the proposed conversation? HEATHEN!
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious

I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does..  Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input.  Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.



*Gasp*
Someone responded in a thread to talk about what was posted in that thread? Instead of going to read a thread that was deemed an inapropriate location for the proposed conversation? HEATHEN!


If you bothered to read the first post of this thread it clearly states that this is a continuation of a discussion from another thread, so you might think to check that  thread out to see the beginning of the discussion, seems like a logical place to start.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
If you bothered to read the first post of this thread it clearly states that this is a continuation of a discussion from another thread, so you might think to check that  thread out to see the beginning of the discussion, seems like a logical place to start.



I just came from that thread and I still don't understand your rationalization. In fact, it looks to me like you're letting your personal feelings about MMORPGs get in the way of an otherwise-sensical thread.

Someone asking a group to reschedule, regardless of the reason, is most certainly not ridiculous. If anything, it shows the person wants to find a time during which he can devote 100% of his attention.

There's an underlying reason as to why you're so strangely offended by this whole situation. I don't think your distaste for MMORPGs is the primary reason.

I'd say that trying to reschedule the game is better than lying about chores or playing via webcam. If they can change the day and everyone agrees, they should do that. Otherwise, just find a new player.

I've had players who missed sessions because they were up all night, then decided to play Xbox Live instead of sleep, then said they were too tired to play. This player no longer plays with us. Its seems very similar to the case you mentioned.

To me, it would have been much better if he asked if we could reschedule in advance. Instead he was unclear if he would make the session and then called less than an hour before the session to cancel. Totally lame!

So blame the player, not the game (WoW), I'd say.

Thanks all for the insightful replies, and attempting to keep your emotions in check {}, and I appreciate your response to my inquiry, Baphogoat. I think you have some underlying issue that causes you to have such distaste for MMORPG's that you may not even be aware of. You appear, bluntly, blinded by your own dislike of MMORPG's that you cannot see anything outside the boundaries you have errected for yourself.

I could very well be wrong though, and so take my words with a gain of salt. You know yourself better then anyone else on the planet, and if you say something is the way it is, then I trust to accept that train of thought.
Thanks all for the insightful replies, and attempting to keep your emotions in check {}, and I appreciate your response to my inquiry, Baphogoat. I think you have some underlying issue that causes you to have such distaste for MMORPG's that you may not even be aware of. You appear, bluntly, blinded by your own dislike of MMORPG's that you cannot see anything outside the boundaries you have errected for yourself.

I could very well be wrong though, and so take my words with a gain of salt. You know yourself better then anyone else on the planet, and if you say something is the way it is, then I trust to accept that train of thought.



Well, like I said I tend to play Devil's advocate, taking a more extreme stance in theory than in practice.  Of course I would (if I thought the player was an asset, or a good friend) attempt to reschedule if it worked for everyone.  If it did not work for even one other person it would be off, and in general I would not be happy to reschedule a game because someone wants to play a video game.  Video games can be played at any time you wish, and I really dont care if there is a raiding schedule you want to stick to.  Now if raiding was how you made a living, and needed to do it to survive fine, but I dont think this is the case.  My time and schedule is more valuable to me then anyone's want to play a video game at a certain time.  Now don't get me wrong, video games can be fun and I delve into one now and then, but to let one run your life and then spill over into other people's lives is a little extreme.  You may need counceling, though I dont particularly endorse it.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Excellent reply. I feel as though this thread is actually accomplishing something, a rare treat in the bizarre world of the OTT.


Well, like I said I tend to play Devil's advocate, taking a more extreme stance in theory than in practice.  Of course I would (if I thought the player was an asset, or a good friend) attempt to reschedule if it worked for everyone.  If it did not work for even one other person it would be off, and in general I would not be happy to reschedule a game because someone wants to play a video game.  Video games can be played at any time you wish, and I really dont care if there is a raiding schedule you want to stick to.  Now if raiding was how you made a living, and needed to do it to survive fine, but I dont think this is the case.  My time and schedule is more valuable to me then anyone's want to play a video game at a certain time.  Now don't get me wrong, video games can be fun and I delve into one now and then, but to let one run your life and then spill over into other people's lives is a little extreme.  You may need counceling, though I dont particularly endorse it.



Raiding is a fully scheduled event just like a D&D session is. You don't just up and decide "hey I'm going to raid tonight!" It takes you and 24-40 other people to get together, at a specific time and place. Raiding also consumes several hours in one go as much time as a D&D session which is another reason they are scheduled.

It's not a matter of "sticking to a schedule you want to play at" but pretty much the schedule that works for the entire guild.
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Excellent reply. I feel as though this thread is actually accomplishing something, a rare treat in the bizarre world of the OTT.


Man, you are quick, and thank you.  I know that at times I can seem a little draconian and maybe I am, but sometimes you have to draw the line.  And I dont take kindly to being manipulated, used or under appreciated.  things I think happened in this situation with the Wower, and so I come off as a little harsh and unforgiving at times .  I am merely taking a firm stance, and you get more input from the opposing side this way. 

If I put in my valuable time into creating a campaign and a player shows that they do not care, by leaving early to play WoW or playing remotely so they can play WoW or any other game at the same time then that remote connect would be disconnected.  If you can not put the time into showing up to game for 5 hours one night and paying attention then you are not worth my time, and that is how this situation made me feel about the player.
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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