Wizards of the Coast announcement

There have been several questions lately regarding the future of the Star Wars Miniatures and Roleplaying Game and until now I haven’t had definitive answers to give you.  After a lengthy evaluation, Wizards of the Coast has decided not to renew the Star Wars license with Lucasfilm. We’ve had a long and fantastic run, but with the economic downturn, we have made the tough decision to discontinue our Star Wars lines.


The license officially ends in May this year, with WotC product available through August. In the meantime, we have awesome new products still coming your way. This week, we released The Dark Times minis and Galaxy of Intrigue RPG. We’ll have more coming with Masters of the Force minis in April, which will have some of your most favorite characters along with rare creatures from the Dejarik Holochess game that have never appeared in our game. We’ll also release The Unknown Regions RPG in April, which includes entirely new planets and mini-adventures for each world.


We are finishing the line with a bang so look for special programs at your local game store to stock up on favorite sets before they go into the vault. We will continue to support our Star Wars forums on the Wizards Community site so you can reach out and chat with us and other fans.


While I know the news is disappointing, we wanted to make this announcement as soon as possible and thank you for being such great fans. It’s been a fantastic ride with the Star Wars community and working with Lucasfilm. We hope you enjoy the next several months of great products. You never know when we may circle back again!


Greg Yahn


Director of Marketing, Wizards of the Coast

I sure hope we get Tusken Raider species traits (even as a sidebar) before this is over.

I'm dyin' here.
I knew this was going to happen. The minute I get into something and start spending money on it, it is over.  This is why I got away from all these games in the first place.  They are a money making scam.  Even if somebody else took it over they would change the rules and resources and sure you can convert with some effort but they will release ten books and you will find your conversions ain't quite right.  Should have known when I can't find anyone who plays the game in a Military town and there are like no modules available except for what other players make.  I remember I lost interest in D&D when Wizards took over and then years later I see Star Wars and minis and I'm like Hey this may be cool, and it was but that has all gone by the wayside.  All I have to say is Thank God for my Kindle. It is the only thing I bought in like five years that has notlet me down in some way. I guess these sourcebooks will just become refrence material.
I sure hope we get Tusken Raider species traits (even as a sidebar) before this is over.

I'm dyin' here.



There are already Tusken stats, I forget where though.
I knew this was going to happen. The minute I get into something and start spending money on it, it is over.  This is why I got away from all these games in the first place.  They are a money making scam.  Even if somebody else took it over they would change the rules and resources and sure you can convert with some effort but they will release ten books and you will find your conversions ain't quite right.  Should have known when I can't find anyone who plays the game in a Military town and there are like no modules available except for what other players make.  I remember I lost interest in D&D when Wizards took over and then years later I see Star Wars and minis and I'm like Hey this may be cool, and it was but that has all gone by the wayside.  All I have to say is Thank God for my Kindle. It is the only thing I bought in like five years that has notlet me down in some way. I guess these sourcebooks will just become refrence material.

WOTC all but ensured no one but the hard Star Wars fan would get the RPG.  WOTC didn't want to produce the RPG.  But it was part of the license for what they really wanted - the minis.

The SAGA RPG books were insulting.  And anyone that disagrees or tries to defend WOTC for that is a frothing-at-the-mouth fanboy.  The books were ridiculously overpriced for what they provided and no one but hard Star Wars fans would ever buy them.  Pull out Starships of the Galaxy, a $35 book, and compare it to any other RPG resource of the same price and see how badly you're being ripped off.

Why would any non-fan of the setting risk their hard-earned money on this game where virtually every other game out there gives you better bang for your buck?

WOTC priced the Star Wars RPG to bilk the fans they knew would buy it no matter what because they didn't believe anyone else would buy it.  They had no faith in the license and it shows in their history with it.

Don't get upset that the game is leaving WOTC.  Look at it as an opportunity for someone that genuinely loves the property to pick it up and treat it like it deserves.
WOTC all but ensured no one but the hard Star Wars fan would get the RPG.  WOTC didn't want to produce the RPG.  But it was part of the license for what they really wanted - the minis.

The SAGA RPG books were insulting.  And anyone that disagrees or tries to defend WOTC for that is a frothing-at-the-mouth fanboy.  The books were ridiculously overpriced for what they provided and no one but hard Star Wars fans would ever buy them.  Pull out Starships of the Galaxy, a $35 book, and compare it to any other RPG resource of the same price and see how badly you're being ripped off.

Why would any non-fan of the setting risk their hard-earned money on this game where virtually every other game out there gives you better bang for your buck?

WOTC priced the Star Wars RPG to bilk the fans they knew would buy it no matter what because they didn't believe anyone else would buy it.  They had no faith in the license and it shows in their history with it.

Don't get upset that the game is leaving WOTC.  Look at it as an opportunity for someone that genuinely loves the property to pick it up and treat it like it deserves.



this post made me laugh.....and nessicates a cross possting to the RPG side...

ThorvaldHafgrimsson wrote:
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NastasiaLorn; wrote:
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Offical troller of the House of Trolls
I sure hope we get Tusken Raider species traits (even as a sidebar) before this is over.

I'm dyin' here.



There are already Tusken stats, I forget where though.


Sort of my point. I want stats that I won't forget where.
I, for one, am thrilled that WOTC will no longer hold the license and I hope it passes into the hands of someone that will treat it properly.

They stopped supporting the Revised Edition of the RPG, letting it languish for over a year, just to print as much money as they could with the minis, and when LucasFilms forced them to start working on the RPG again, or lose the license, they give us tiny books that cost as much as their full-sized D&D counterparts.

Good riddance, WOTC.  I'm looking forward to never spending a dime on your products again.



I would like to say that I am sad to hear this but I stopped buying anything new from WOTC when they stopped supporting the RCR books (much like seldrane above). 



I am astounded at the rabid speculation going on here.

Ok, here's the only facts known-

What was in the first post and....  that's it.

You claim that WoTC didn't want to do the RPG... yet if you read the blogs of the RPG developers, it was clearly a labor of love. RCR was replaced with SAGA because RCR was two different games, 1 for Jedi and 1 for everyone else. The Force was broken. Space ships were a pain. It was too much a v3.5 re-skin and not it's own game.

BTW, Star Wars cost more for the same number of pages compared to other RPGs because of the license fees, not because they wanted to steal you money, you idiots.

Oh, wait, I can already hear some rabid troll screaming, "But Saga was just a testbed for 4e!" except for the fact that there is little evidence of that in the finished product of both. I don't see Martial Talent trees in 4e (which I still contend would have been a better way to handle Martial vs Arcance/Divine than powers), I don't see the simplified grapple and trip rules (in fact, they are not there at all in deafult), and I don't see a simplified list of core classes (in fact, the 4e classes just keep growing, which is why I stopped with PHB 2 and Eberron, which is all I need to recrate my v3.5 Eberron Game without the headache of the stupid v3.5 rules).

In short, the trolls need to stop feeding the stupid rumor mill, and the rest of you folks need to stop feeding the trolls by making them feel legitiamte. It's a bad economy for RPGs right now. Everyone is cutting back, White Wolf is, Palladium is (not all by choice, but still), DP9 is, and well, everyone is.  It's not unbelivable that WoTC does not want to spend on the Star Wars license any more. Developing their own IP, where they don't have to pay a second party for the right to publish, just makes sense in this economy.


No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses. Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events. ~~ KT
It's not unbelivable that WoTC does not want to spend on the Star Wars license any more. Developing their own IP, where they don't have to pay a second party for the right to publish, just makes sense in this economy.



This makes it sound like WotC is ONLY spending money and not making any, which I do not believe to be true. I don't think they are operating the brand at a loss, I think their profits are not at the level they want them to be. It's the difference between saying "We need to make 40% profit" and "We're not making money on this brand."

Also, it doesn't really make sense in this economy to cut a product line that gives them customers. While I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, your comment comes across as though we are a bunch of drooling morons who will just blindly give our money to WotC for their in-house IP after they just spit in our faces. Why the hell would we do that? Anyone who does deserves what they get when WotC discontinues those products, too.

Finally, you either have a short-term memory or don't know much about WotC. They've had their own IP for years, for all the good it did them. Off the top of my head:

Magic
D&D 3.5
Dreamblade
DuelMasters
D&D Minis
Hecatomb
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)

All of those products with the exception of Magic were deemed failures and discontinued. How long until the West Coast Tower falls completely? Personally I believe its going to happen sooner than most people realize. You may label me a "troll" if you wish, or accuse me of feeding the trolls, but I have been following this company for a long time and on a semi-personal level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to see the writing on the wall. 
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)



I thought only Risk 2210 and not the orginal Risk was an AH product...intresting

ThorvaldHafgrimsson wrote:
Life is full of choices. Sometimes you make the good ones, and sometimes you have to kill all the witnesses.
NastasiaLorn; wrote:
But then you have to pay the liability insurance.
A note about character and world creation
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Character and world creation are a form of expression. The point is that some people don't have much to say...
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On the subject of who post in the Off-Topic Tavern:
57131438 wrote:
most of them are bored, immature adults.
Offical troller of the House of Trolls
Whoops, that was supposed to say Risk Godstorm.

Magic
D&D 3.5
Dreamblade
DuelMasters
D&D Minis
Hecatomb
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)

All of those products with the exception of Magic were deemed failures and discontinued.



I never did like 3.5....but call it a failure and you will have a lot of people angry at you.
I don't think Ford calls the 2000 escort a failure.  I think they are still making newer versions of it. {checked it, plans through 2012}
If you go by that criteria, you should put a few more things on the list...

D&D
AD&D
AD&D 2nd Edition
Star Wars Roleplaying Game (including Revised Core)

And don't forget about the other companies, and their lists of failures

Some of my favorites include:

Alternity
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game (1st edition)
Shadowrun (1,2,3 editions)
Vampire: The masquerade
Legend of the Five rings (1,2,3 editions)

so many failures, and such good games, too

p.s.   Apparently they still make D&D minis, who knew?
RS 55/60; CS 54/60; RotS 55/60; UH 46/60; CotF 60/60; BH 44/60; A&E 58/60; FU 49/60; LotF 60/60; KotOR 57/60;
CW 40/40; IE 39/40; JA 40/40; GaW 40/40; DT 39/40; MotF 40/40

This makes it sound like WotC is ONLY spending money and not making any, which I do not believe to be true. I don't think they are operating the brand at a loss, I think their profits are not at the level they want them to be. It's the difference between saying "We need to make 40% profit" and "We're not making money on this brand."


Couple points in response to you quote above.


You have to keep in mind WotC assumes risks when they produce their products.  Costs of development are fixed.  They have to then guess how much product to produce etc….  All this to say that products can be profitable but not profitable enough to warrant the risk entailed in their production.  Basically small drops is sales can move products to profitability to making a loss.


Ultimately WotC are answerable to Hasbro.  Do you really think that Hasbro would sanction a subsidiary cancelling the license if there were significant profits being made. 


They've had their own IP for years, for all the good it did them. Off the top of my head:

Magic
D&D 3.5
Dreamblade
DuelMasters
D&D Minis
Hecatomb
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)

All of those products with the exception of Magic were deemed failures and discontinued. How long until the West Coast Tower falls completely? Personally I believe its going to happen sooner than most people realize. 


I am scratching my head at your above list.  First of all DuelMasters is a licensed product.  And many of the rest couldn’t be considered anything near a failure.  The introduction of 4ed doesn’t mean that 3.5 was a failure just that WotC wanted a way to be able to sell more Players Handbooks, DM guides etc….  RoboRally was very successful (take a look at how many expansions they have), Betrayal at House on the Hill also did well and is projected to be rereleased in the fall.  Hecatomb and Dreamblade certainly underperformed but even Apple had the Newton. 


Most game companies go out of business, run at a loss, don’t pay their employees, bounce checks (this just happened to a friend of mine he wrote a supplement for a well known game company and the bounced his check) so I wouldn’t be fall out of my chair shocked if WotC ceased to exist as it stands now.  I would be surprised though.


I am not trying to change your opinion about WotC deliberately trying to sabotage the SWM line, I don’t think I could.  But you seem to have positioned yourself that there is no other reasonable alternative other than WotC deliberately hosing SW and I don’t think that is the case.  Just my opinion though.

It's not unbelivable that WoTC does not want to spend on the Star Wars license any more. Developing their own IP, where they don't have to pay a second party for the right to publish, just makes sense in this economy.



This makes it sound like WotC is ONLY spending money and not making any, which I do not believe to be true. I don't think they are operating the brand at a loss, I think their profits are not at the level they want them to be. It's the difference between saying "We need to make 40% profit" and "We're not making money on this brand."

Also, it doesn't really make sense in this economy to cut a product line that gives them customers. While I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, your comment comes across as though we are a bunch of drooling morons who will just blindly give our money to WotC for their in-house IP after they just spit in our faces. Why the hell would we do that? Anyone who does deserves what they get when WotC discontinues those products, too.

Finally, you either have a short-term memory or don't know much about WotC. They've had their own IP for years, for all the good it did them. Off the top of my head:

Magic
D&D 3.5
Dreamblade
DuelMasters
D&D Minis
Hecatomb
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)

All of those products with the exception of Magic were deemed failures and discontinued. How long until the West Coast Tower falls completely? Personally I believe its going to happen sooner than most people realize. You may label me a "troll" if you wish, or accuse me of feeding the trolls, but I have been following this company for a long time and on a semi-personal level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to see the writing on the wall. 

 

The difference between licensing Star Wars and using a pre-existing internal IP is the difference between renting a house and owning a home. Having a job at a business, and running your own business. You can pay another person to live in a house, but it's not really yours unless you own it. You can work as a paper salesman and get a check from the boss, or you can own a paper supplier and cut your own checks. 

Obviously, there are drawbacks to owning a house and being your own boss. If something goes wrong, you won't be able to walk away from a destroyed house or failing business that easily. However, if you buy the perfect house and run a successful business, no-one can take it away from you. 

Every time WotC made a miniatures set for Star Wars, George Lucas got a cut of it. Every time WotC made a RPG sourcebook, bits of fluff became the property of George Lucas and not WotC. WotC, fed primarily by M:TG and D&D, does not have to live off of licenses to ensure its survival. It has had the luxury to design some of the best games in the past decade (Hecatomb, Dreamblade, Betrayal at the House on the Hill) and keep that intellectual property in the bank for the future. Look at what they're doing with Gamma World in '10. IPs do have value in the long term. 

WotC's fortunes was made off of an internal IP. Magic: the Gathering gave WotC enough money to buy D&D and license Pokemon during its fad days. The control WotC has over the IP allows them to shape the game in ways a Star Wars CCG would not be possible. They don't have to ask anyone's permission to change how they design, develop or brand their primary breadwinner. That is real economic and creative power, and the main reason why WotC keeps trying to make or redesign internal IPs.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I never did like 3.5....but call it a failure and you will have a lot of people angry at you.



Why would they be angry? Because they like the game? Well let me state then, for the record, that I have been running a 3.5 campaign 2-3 times a month over the last year and a half. My group of players has no intentions of switching to 4th Edition, and in fact one of the other players has begun to run his own campaign. When I say "failure" in terms of this discussion, I am referring to WotC's mentality toward the particular product. They decided the product could no longer be supported because they weren't making their profit goals (again, as opposed to not making any money at all they just weren't making as much as they wanted to).

If you go by that criteria, you should put a few more things on the list...

D&D
AD&D
AD&D 2nd Edition
Star Wars Roleplaying Game (including Revised Core)



Ok, none of those with the exception of the Star Wars RPG books were created by WotC, and as for AD&D 2, I think there was always an expectation that they would reinvent it in a 3rd edition when they acquired it from TSR.

And don't forget about the other companies, and their lists of failures



The rest of this, starting with the quote above, is getting off track of the point, so I'm not going to respond to it.
Ultimately WotC are answerable to Hasbro.  Do you really think that Hasbro would sanction a subsidiary cancelling the license if there were significant profits being made.



I think if I were at Hasbro I would be wondering how the heck my subsidary could be so incompetent as to not make "significant profits." But to answer your question, I believe that WotC bean counters spun the numbers to show they were falling short of profit goals and also told their Hasbro overlords that Magic and D&D needed shoring up. This has been a long time coming. Greg Yahn did not get up on January 20th and decide to make this announcement. I suspect he didn't even get up on Oct. 1, 2009 and decide to make this announcement. My educated opinion is that this decision was made sometime around February of last year and they've just been waiting to make it official. When Hasbro reports WotC financial movement to stockholders, they always mention Magic. The thought of Magic not doing so well would not set well with stockholders who for years have been trained to think of the company in those terms. I think this is why GenCon volunteers were told to only focus on demos of D&D and Magic and nothing else. No SWM, no SW RPG, no AAM, no War at Sea, nothing. This tells me that they were concerned about Magic sales. And when you couple it with the gimmicks they have pulled off with the last two or three sets in order to boost sales, well then it's just a matter of connecting the dots.  

They've had their own IP for years, for all the good it did them. Off the top of my head:

Magic
D&D 3.5
Dreamblade
DuelMasters
D&D Minis
Hecatomb
Avalon Hill board games (including Risk, Risk 2210, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Swords and Skulls, RoboRally, Vegas, and many others)

All of those products with the exception of Magic were deemed failures and discontinued. How long until the West Coast Tower falls completely? Personally I believe its going to happen sooner than most people realize. 


I am scratching my head at your above list.  First of all DuelMasters is a licensed product.  And many of the rest couldn’t be considered anything near a failure.  The introduction of 4ed doesn’t mean that 3.5 was a failure just that WotC wanted a way to be able to sell more Players Handbooks, DM guides etc….  RoboRally was very successful (take a look at how many expansions they have), Betrayal at House on the Hill also did well and is projected to be rereleased in the fall.  Hecatomb and Dreamblade certainly underperformed but even Apple had the Newton.




The Avalon Hill board game line was deemed a failure and discontinued, regardless of how good or bad any particular game on that list actually is. And personally, I still enjoy playing quite a few of those, such as Sword and Skulls. 

I am not trying to change your opinion about WotC deliberately trying to sabotage the SWM line, I don’t think I could.  But you seem to have positioned yourself that there is no other reasonable alternative other than WotC deliberately hosing SW and I don’t think that is the case.  Just my opinion though.



IMO, the reason you don't think its the case is because you either don't know or have chosen to ignore the facts that lead to this conclusion. To say they deliberately sabotaged or tanked it is probably overstating what happened. Their self-destruction of the game was not done through malice or scheming, but rather through indifference, apathy, and in all honesty, a fair amount of stupidity. All the evidence of the past five years proves it.
@boris_the_dwarf;
i applaud your use of pure, simple ol' logic. You have applied logic in this particular case (of connecting the dots to see that Magic The Gathering needs shoring up) in a similar manner to sherlock holmes!
Well Done! Laughing

So my question becomes this; what do you intend to do now, boris? Are you going to continue to play SWMs? Are you going to customise minis? Are you going to hold tournaments, games nights etc?

Or are you going to walk away from SWMs as a jaded, anti-WotC consumer? As a consumer who looks for new products?

Im curious to see what you are going to do; at times of great peril, communities such as this one often turn to the venerable members of said communities (such as yourself, or 'the greats'... they know who they are.) I wonder what you will do now. Laughing

@all;
Personally? I could sense that this game was changing. i hoped it would not come to an end. i left the DCI scene a while ago at my LGS shop owners advice (not due to poor gaming practices or personal hygiene issues... but because he wouldnt be running it anymore Laughing) i continue to buy SWM and other like-scale minis wherever and whenever i can (a hard thing to do in AUS sometimes).

And now, i make custom minis for people. The world over. I make custom stats and i try to keep this game alive. I think its a good game. It would be better if it had a little more variety, and fewer lukes and vaders and chewies... you get the point Laughing It would be better if it had an 'optional' high strategy mode of game play, so i can have my Stormies pin some Rebel Scum!

and you know what? now we can make the game whatever we want! Laughing to whatever quality/production standards we want. we can devote as much or as little time to our hobbies as we see fit (or are allowed, in some peoples cases... Laughing) and hopefully we can make the game better in the process. i cant see something like this being dead for long.

@boris_the_dwarf;
i hope to see your reply soon. it will make for an interesting read! Laughing

Kobayashimaru
Why would they be angry? Because they like the game? Well let me state then, for the record, that I have been running a 3.5 campaign 2-3 times a month over the last year and a half. My group of players has no intentions of switching to 4th Edition, and in fact one of the other players has begun to run his own campaign. When I say "failure" in terms of this discussion, I am referring to WotC's mentality toward the particular product. They decided the product could no longer be supported because they weren't making their profit goals (again, as opposed to not making any money at all they just weren't making as much as they wanted to).



Boris,

Dungeons and Dragons 3/3.5 was as successful as any pen-and-paper roleplaying game in the history of mankind has been, and carried WotC from a 60% marketshare to an 80% marketshare.  It sold in volumes that Star Wars roleplaying games could only DREAM of. 

The decision to create a new edition was not made because 3.5 wasn't "successful".  The decision was made because Roleplaying Games always run through a very predictable life cycle.  It is the same reason that Warhammer Fantasy is on its 7th Edition and 40k is on its 5th.  World of Darkness is on its 4th.  Shadowrun and L5R are into their 4th.  3.5 was still a majority marketshare when 4th Edition was announced, and several of the later books, including the Book of 9 Swords, were amongst the best selling products in the line. 

Neither D&D nor Magic had anything to do with the cancellation of Star Wars, except that their success may have illustrated how money could be better spent.  The very nature of a licensed product means that it must outsell its unlicensed counterpart by a significant margin to be equally profitable.  Star Wars did not.  As a game store owner that has a fairly substantial SWM playerbase, I can say that it has never matched Magic in terms of profitability or ease of sale.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Wars.  It has been a great way to get kids into gaming.  However, I know that a Magic release will bring in nearly 5x the profits that a Star Wars release will.  And having talked to a lot of other game stores nationwide, I know that we are luckier than many as far as our SWM playerbase is concerned.

Star Wars, like any license, represents greater investment, with the hope for greater returns.  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, that wasn't the case.  I don't hold WotC blameless, as there are a lot of things that could have (and should have) been done differently.  However, their options are either to take a risk on reinvesting into the license (knowing that the product lifecycle is now against you) or cutting your losses and investing elsewhere.  The bottom line is that in business, it is not enough to be 'profitable'.  You have to be as profitable as is possible.  We have no evidence that Star Wars was truly 'profitable'.  We know that it sold, but do not know whether or not it sold well enough to cover its fixed costs.  We do, however, know that it did not sell as well as other, more profitable, lines from the same company.  Unfortunately, as much as I wished that it wasn't so, I know that if it were my company I would have made the same decision.  This is simply a matter of ROI.  You can't run a business at a loss, no matter how much you (or anyone else, for that matter) would love to. 
Boris,

Dungeons and Dragons 3/3.5 was as successful as any pen-and-paper roleplaying game in the history of mankind has been, and carried WotC from a 60% marketshare to an 80% marketshare.  It sold in volumes that Star Wars roleplaying games could only DREAM of. 

Actually you made his point.  His point was not that 3/3.5 was a bad product.  Dennis is someone who much prefers 3 to 4. 

Neither D&D nor Magic had anything to do with the cancellation of Star Wars, except that their success may have illustrated how money could be better spent.  

I think you have not followed the company carefully enough to understand what has been going on with those two lines in particular.  They are both in trouble, and have been for a while now.  There is plenty of evidence that supports Dennis' conclusions, but this statement of yours completely contradicts what you say later about what we can or cannot know.  So please, use your own advice next time.

The very nature of a licensed product means that it must outsell its unlicensed counterpart by a significant margin to be equally profitable.  Star Wars did not.  

I agree until you say, "Star Wars did not".  You are assuming that based on nothing other than the fact of it's cancellation.  However, we have had 14 sets of this game that clearly shows your statement is false, not a false opinion, but false as a fact at all.

As a game store owner that has a fairly substantial SWM playerbase, I can say that it has never matched Magic in terms of profitability or ease of sale.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Wars.  It has been a great way to get kids into gaming.  

Anecdotal, and unfair.  You cannot compare a card game profit to a mini game.  They are only vaguely in the same market. 

However, I know that a Magic release will bring in nearly 5x the profits that a Star Wars release will.  And having talked to a lot of other game stores nationwide, I know that we are luckier than many as far as our SWM playerbase is concerned.

again, comparison is irrelevant to the points being made.  There are a lot of reasons for the above being true.  One of which, is that WotC for years has been dumping gobs of money into Magic to make this true.  They have done nothing like this for SWMs releases at any time.  Comparing the two gives completely unfair and misleading results.

The bottom line is that in business, it is not enough to be 'profitable'.  You have to be as profitable as is possible.  We have no evidence that Star Wars was truly 'profitable'.  

This contradicts what you say above, and it's not even correct anyways.  14 sets.  We most certainly have a ton of evidence that proves that it was quite profitable.  The question is related to the many misteps and ambivalence on the part of WotC for the line.

We know that it sold, but do not know whether or not it sold well enough to cover its fixed costs.  We do, however, know that it did not sell as well as other, more profitable, lines from the same company.  

BS - 14 sets.  We absolutely know this statement to be patently false.

Unfortunately, as much as I wished that it wasn't so, I know that if it were my company I would have made the same decision.  The profits simply do not justify the costs.  You can't run a business at a loss, no matter how much you (or anyone else, for that matter) would love to. 

Again, complete BS.  You are basing your conclusion on assumptions that are completely without fact.  We all know this statement is true, if we assume your reasons for it.  Unfortunately, that is not all there is to say about it, and your assumptions are not true.  So given that, your conclusions are completely suspect and false.

I know that if it were my company I would have made the same decision.



I wouldn't've. To me, I don't see a reason to discontinue a profitable product just because it has a lower margin than another product I produce.

You say that a business has to be as profitable as possible to succeed, if that were the case, retail stores wouldn't be carrying most of their products. For instance, a store makes about the same amount of money selling a large bag of Sweetheart conversation hearts as they do selling a PS3. If profit margin was all the store cared about, why would they carry Playstations?
IMAGE(http://www.lusogamer.com/live/green/gamercard_gamerbar/EmporerDragon.png)

Actually, I would say the CCG and CMG market do have an overlap.

I still haven't seen where MTG or D+D are in trouble.  All three of my LGS have had trouble getting product for couple of sets because they are selling so well and they are selling out fast.  Maybe I am missing something but it sure seems that MTG is just as profitable (if not more so ) than it ever has been.
I still haven't seen where MTG or D+D are in trouble.  All three of my LGS have had trouble getting product for couple of sets because they are selling so well and they are selling out fast.  Maybe I am missing something but it sure seems that MTG is just as profitable (if not more so ) than it ever has been.



The problems were a short time ago.  The use of DDM and SWMs staff to shore up Magic seem to have been successful in terms of the sales of Magic Cards in particular.  The issues were the case about 1-2 years ago from what I understand.  Dennis thinks the issue may be bigger than we previously believed, and I don't know about that or not.  I can say, there were issues at the time WotC was bought out.  The losing of SWMs is the next step in a line of actions since that time.  It very well may not be the last for WotC.

The point however, is that while it may prove good for Magic to have done so, it isn't good long term for WotC.  I understand WotC stands on Magic, but it's never a good idea to push one product at the expense of an entirely seperate market.  I won't be buying any other WotC products ever again, and I am not alone.  They do not treat their customers and markets well, and I have no interest in further supporting a company like this. 

@Scott - there certainly is some crossover, but they are not the same market.  I've never purchased a single WotC product outside of a few SWs TCG cards years ago, then minis, and one RPG book.  And once MotF case is purchased, that's the end of my purchasing from WotC.  I am certainly not the only one who does not crossover, nor does my money compete with Magic or any other card game at this time.  (Not likely in the future either, as card games are not nearly as dynamic as most other games on the market). 

I still haven't seen where MTG or D+D are in trouble.  All three of my LGS have had trouble getting product for couple of sets because they are selling so well and they are selling out fast.  Maybe I am missing something but it sure seems that MTG is just as profitable (if not more so ) than it ever has been.



Because you don't see the whole picture. Your LGSes had trouble getting sets because WotC didn't make as many, coupled with the fact that they gimmicked the last set to increase demand. I often refer to Magic boosters as "booster scratch-offs," and the last set that came out I call the "powerball jackpot."

Magic may not be in trouble the way other games like Dreamblade and DDM and even SW have been, but that is only because WotC is going to a lot of extra effort to address it.

Think of their games like ships. All of the ships have holes and are filling up with water. So the admiral of the fleet decides he can only save two ships if he puts all of his crew on them at the abandonment of all of the other ships, even the ones that really only have minor easy-to-fix holes.

That is what is happening here, in my opinion, and I maintain that it is an educated opinion. Whether Magic and D&D will survive is irrelevant, because now the admiral only has two ships.
@boris_the_dwarf;
i applaud your use of pure, simple ol' logic. You have applied logic in this particular case (of connecting the dots to see that Magic The Gathering needs shoring up) in a similar manner to sherlock holmes!
Well Done!

So my question becomes this; what do you intend to do now, boris? Are you going to continue to play SWMs? Are you going to customise minis? Are you going to hold tournaments, games nights etc?

Or are you going to walk away from SWMs as a jaded, anti-WotC consumer? As a consumer who looks for new products?

Im curious to see what you are going to do; at times of great peril, communities such as this one often turn to the venerable members of said communities (such as yourself, or 'the greats'... they know who they are.) I wonder what you will do now.

@all;
Personally? I could sense that this game was changing. i hoped it would not come to an end. i left the DCI scene a while ago at my LGS shop owners advice (not due to poor gaming practices or personal hygiene issues... but because he wouldnt be running it anymore ) i continue to buy SWM and other like-scale minis wherever and whenever i can (a hard thing to do in AUS sometimes).

And now, i make custom minis for people. The world over. I make custom stats and i try to keep this game alive. I think its a good game. It would be better if it had a little more variety, and fewer lukes and vaders and chewies... you get the point It would be better if it had an 'optional' high strategy mode of game play, so i can have my Stormies pin some Rebel Scum!

and you know what? now we can make the game whatever we want! to whatever quality/production standards we want. we can devote as much or as little time to our hobbies as we see fit (or are allowed, in some peoples cases... ) and hopefully we can make the game better in the process. i cant see something like this being dead for long.

@boris_the_dwarf;
i hope to see your reply soon. it will make for an interesting read!

Kobayashimaru



You may refer to me as an "anti-WotC consumer," but I am not giving up on SWM. I will continue to play the game and support the community as much as possible.
@Scott - there certainly is some crossover, but they are not the same market.  I've never purchased a single WotC product outside of a few SWs TCG cards years ago, then minis, and one RPG book.  And once MotF case is purchased, that's the end of my purchasing from WotC.  I am certainly not the only one who does not crossover, nor does my money compete with Magic or any other card game at this time.  (Not likely in the future either, as card games are not nearly as dynamic as most other games on the market). 




There is definately a collectable gaming market, and I think that was one of the few markets SWM was targetted at. Granted, that is an area that needed a LOT more attention than what we got (only now do we have a tournament circuit). If you feel as if you are not part of that market, that's fine. I have been playing collectible games for 15 years now (HOLY!!!! 1995 was such an innocent awakening), but only played 2 seriously (SWCCG and SWM). I am a fan of them, as there are tons of Pokemon/Yugioh players who will eventually branch out. And while I am extremely doubtful of buying into another WOTC game into the future, I won't rule it out. I mean, I swore off WOTC when SW Yahtzee was released, and "killed" SWCCG. Here I am.
I still haven't seen where MTG or D+D are in trouble.  All three of my LGS have had trouble getting product for couple of sets because they are selling so well and they are selling out fast.  Maybe I am missing something but it sure seems that MTG is just as profitable (if not more so ) than it ever has been.



The problems were a short time ago.  The use of DDM and SWMs staff to shore up Magic seem to have been successful in terms of the sales of Magic Cards in particular.  The issues were the case about 1-2 years ago from what I understand.  Dennis thinks the issue may be bigger than we previously believed, and I don't know about that or not.  I can say, there were issues at the time WotC was bought out.  The losing of SWMs is the next step in a line of actions since that time.  It very well may not be the last for WotC.

The point however, is that while it may prove good for Magic to have done so, it isn't good long term for WotC.  I understand WotC stands on Magic, but it's never a good idea to push one product at the expense of an entirely seperate market.  I won't be buying any other WotC products ever again, and I am not alone.  They do not treat their customers and markets well, and I have no interest in further supporting a company like this. 

@Scott - there certainly is some crossover, but they are not the same market.  I've never purchased a single WotC product outside of a few SWs TCG cards years ago, then minis, and one RPG book.  And once MotF case is purchased, that's the end of my purchasing from WotC.  I am certainly not the only one who does not crossover, nor does my money compete with Magic or any other card game at this time.  (Not likely in the future either, as card games are not nearly as dynamic as most other games on the market). 






No I completely understand what your point is and it is quite unfortunate that we are having to suffer because our particular game of choice doesn't have the same profit (or profit margins) as some other games created by WOTC.   

I think SWM has the same problem that many miniatures games has in the fact that you don't really require additional units once you have made your initial purchase.  By this I mean when a new set comes out everyone buys a case (or set) and then doesn't really need any more of that product and doesn't tend to buy any more because additional product can only be used as trade fodder (and when you have everything you don't need to trade for anything) so there is no incentive to buy more than the minimal amount you need.   There are so few pieces in any given set that even extras of "chase" pieces are sometimes hard to move (for even suboptimal value) so another reason not to randomly just buy a booster. 

CCGs (and MTG specifically) have this particular issue beaten.  The chase cards are always tradeable to the shop for store credit since there are many more MTG players (and it is harder to track down a particular card (IE you would need to buy some extrodinary amount of boxes to get everything you need)) it is easy for the shop to take your card on trade and sell it to the next guy that comes in.

SWM had this in the beginning when it had 60 piece sets and the VRs were the chase pieces to own and you had to get 3-4 cases to even have a shot at a complete set and even if you got a dupe it still retained value and was easily tradeable to someone else.  I think that the 40 piece set was the final nail in the SW coffin so to speak.  It would be similar to something along the lines of MTG offering 4x complete sets (you can only play 4 of any given card maximum) for some set price and then set it up to entice players that the 4-set option was the way to go.  No incentive to buy more as everyone already has what they need and no one to trade it too eventually sales will dry up and your product will slowly lose profitability.

The other thing is that MTG packs cost 4 bucks for 15 cards compared to 15 bucks for 7 minis.  Now we have shown that SWM is much more cost effective in the long run in other threads but it is much harder for people to spare 15 bucks than it is to cough up 4 bucks especially when chances are high that your 15 booster will have a Rare in it which is worth little more than the plastic it is made of because for the most part "everyone" has all the rares they need (how many peeps haven;t bought any new stuff except a booster or two and still have complete or very near complete sets because they can get a whole rare set for an older VR?)  If you buy a CCG pack you not only have a chance to get something you need or can trade but you certainly will get a better proportion of your cost spent back in value (even if you get a dud for a rare) and can even make out like crazy  (some in print MTG cards are $50-$60) from a $4 booster.

Still not sure where/when WOTC was in trouble other than the fact it can't model its minis business model the same as its MTG model as it just does not work.   It breaks down too quickly because either you have what we have now where everyone (and I know this isn't really everyone) buys 1 case and is done because they have nearly the whole set or you have what they had before where it took 3-4 cases to get a set and it was too cost prohibitive for their market.  I think one final option that they could have done was have actual RANDOM boosters (by which I really mean random cases) where you wouldn't be certain of 1R 2unc and 4 comm sets from a case.  I know it is never fun to open duplicates of the same R in a case (or not get any of a particular comm or unc) but in order for any game to thrive it has to have a strong and thriving secondary market and WOTC killed ours when they went to 40 piece sets.

Just my rambling 2 cents
@boris the dwarf;
awwww, i feel a little let down by your reply. Cry
i was hoping youd go into detail about your current LGS happenings and how your local SWM scene is going. And i was also wondering what you thought about the possibility of custom minis. Laughing Pieces youd like to see, that sort of thing.

More on topic, i thought your point of view made entire sense of the tumultuous situation at WotC at the present time. It made understanding current events much easier... maybe you should write a blog or some other type of opinion based article in a periodical format so people can read and be informed?
my two cents worth anyway Laughing

@all;
now that its offical, what do the big players out there see happening in the future?
will SWM go the way of the ill-fated star wars trading card game (also made by WotC)?
will it end up like the decipher card game, that has a fan base that sporadically produces limited new content?
will there still be fan-held tournaments?

what is your local gaming store scene in the aftermath of 'the announcement'? detail how you coped with the news. how did you find out? that sort of thing Laughing

Hopefully we can generate some interesting discussion.
I have found this thread so far to be quite an interesting read; one of the most interesting threads in a long time Laughing

Kobayashimaru
@koby - go to swmgamers.com

Our "responses" are pretty well covered there.  Short story, we are doing regionals, Gencon, and making virtual sets.  You can also listen to the latest SHNN show where we discussed it as well.
@koby

The game will live on as it is the players that will drive it forward.
I feel this should have come in December, so I could have said "what a crappy end to a crappy year." Now this feeling is ruined, because so far this has been a good year for me, until now.

I don't know what I want to do now. Since I was in Elementary School I've been supporting WoTC. I played MtG for years and years, and D&D too, both with TSR and then WoTC. Then, of course, I supported SWRPG with both them and West End. Lastly, it was SWM. First I gave up on D&D for the constant rules overhauls that left me with 30-40 useless (and expensive) books, then I got out of SWRPG for a similar reason. MtG I went on/off with for years, but finally gave up when I devoted all of my time to SWM.

Ho ho ho, foolish me it would seem.

Now I'm going to go to eBay and buy all of the POGs I can find, because no one can ruin them. Not anymore.

Thanks for a good run guys and gals!

-Robert

Now I'm going to go to eBay and buy all of the POGs I can find, because no one can ruin them. Not anymore.



Unless they use one of those heavy metal slammers.
IMAGE(http://www.lusogamer.com/live/green/gamercard_gamerbar/EmporerDragon.png)

Now I'm going to go to eBay and buy all of the POGs I can find, because no one can ruin them. Not anymore.



Unless they use one of those heavy metal slammers.



Wow, someone else that remembers POGs.  I'll sell you all that I have left. Laughing
My trade thread http://community.wizards.com/marketplace/go/thread/view/94961/22314269/MandaloreTheFirsts_Armory._Buy,_Sell,_and_Trade. +66 Good Trades "Look Ma, I'm a Jedi Knight!" Trades in progress: none Good Trades: C3P01971 x6, Kenred2 x5, dojimaster x4, urbanjedi x4, Chiech x2, mandaloreresurrector x2, crapface x2, JamesWys x2, Jason1977 x2, ChuckaFett x2, barzillai x2, sw_rebel_storm_miniatures x2, RogueThirteen x2, Silocan x2, creme_brule, dinofs1, PhoenixDarksider, bradu, Lily_Wan, suki_jedi_apprentice, Vilrin, pastordamon, Darth_Onus, scourgeofthenewrepublic, Vaun_Kale, username, wampafang, vlad9969, lestiff416, james_douglas77, Lt_Murgen, starwiz, Kael_Dronna, DARTH_TED, MandoMerc, Boss Nass, moboley, Evil_Eater_of_Dream, darthtyree67, Bo_Master, Bohica, ------------------------------------------------------------ Bloomilk Trade refrences: +4 Good Trades Good Trades: SquelchDog, ChuckaFett, engineer, TimmerB123 Bad Trades: 0
I will never give up on Star Wars Miniatures going away.There are so many people who love this game! I think it will make a return somehow.
Looking forward to the new set : Masters of the Force, after that im going to start trying to finish off my sets.
Just made a new group: star wars miniatures collectors.Please veryone come join
Actually you made his point.  His point was not that 3/3.5 was a bad product.  Dennis is someone who much prefers 3 to 4. 

I think you missed my point.  This isn't a matter of like or dislike.  It is a matter of return on investment and product life cycle.  3.5 was a success because it made a substantial return on investment throughout the course of its production, with only a few notable exceptions. 

Roleplaying games, by their very nature, have a very predictable product life cycle.  The only variables are how long it would take and how much 3rd Edition would make in that time period. The production of a new edition of a roleplaying game is evidence of the previous edition's success, not of its failure.   

I understand that this concept may seem foreign to many, but it is a simple fact in game development.  Succesful games are those that survive to see a new edition.

I think you have not followed the company carefully enough to understand what has been going on with those two lines in particular.  They are both in trouble, and have been for a while now.  There is plenty of evidence that supports Dennis' conclusions, but this statement of yours completely contradicts what you say later about what we can or cannot know.  So please, use your own advice next time.

You are either grossly misinformed or letting personal biases color the facts.  As someone who owns stock in Hasbro and who is in frequent contact with game and hobby distributors, I am confident when I say that you are absolutely incorrect.

Here are some facts:

- D&D currently holds over 70% of the roleplaying market, and has for the past 5 years. 
- Magic: the Gathering is WotC's most profitable line (by a significant margin) and has been every year except 1999-2000 (which was the year of the Pokemon).
- Magic is at an all time high in tournament participation.
- In its first six months, Magic 2010 boosters outsold Tenth Edition boosters in the U.S. by over 70%
- In its first three months, Zendikar boosters outsold Shards of Alara boosters in the U.S. by over 55%

Those are facts.  Those are not my opinions.  You can say Magic and D&D are "failing" all you want, but it's quite simply not true.

The very nature of a licensed product means that it must outsell its unlicensed counterpart by a significant margin to be equally profitable.  Star Wars did not.  

I agree until you say, "Star Wars did not".  You are assuming that based on nothing other than the fact of it's cancellation.  However, we have had 14 sets of this game that clearly shows your statement is false, not a false opinion, but false as a fact at all.

The production of sets does not prove that Star Wars Miniatures was equally as profitable as either Magic or D&D.  It certainly is verifiably true that the Star Wars lines did not outsell either Magic or D&D.  I don't know if you are aware, but the various games distributors do publish industry figures on sales, which is how well managed game stores predict and adapt to industry trends.  As someone who both runs a game store and works in game development, I live by these figures.  I don't need to assume anything.

The question isn't whether or not it sold.  Of course it sold.  The question is whether or not it sold in great enough quantities to cover the fixed costs of development and made enough profit to justify entering into another licensing agreement with LucasFilm.

 You cannot compare a card game profit to a mini game.  They are only vaguely in the same market. 

To take all of the emotion out of it, let's make the following comparison.  There is a company that makes two types of widgets.  We will call them Widget A and Widget B.  For the sake of simplicity, we will assume that both widgets sell for the same price- $100.  We will also, for the sake of simplicity, assume that demand is equal and exclusive for both widgets.  Widget A has a production cost of $50 per widget.  Widget B has a production cost of $60 per widget. 

Now we will assume that the demand for Widget A is greater than that of Widget B.  The choice becomes easier.  Now assume that to continue production of Widget B there is an additional cost and additional requirements to their manufacture (minimum and maximum production, etc). 

Unless there is some other ancilliary benefit to producing Widget B or the supply of Widget A has reached market saturation, a manufacturer is wise to produce Widget A to the exclusion of Widget B.  That isn't to say that the production of Widget B is bad.  Widget B may be a niche market worth filling. But the company that has its choice will certainly prefer to invest its resources in the production of whatever results in the greatest overall profit.

One could argue that there are ancilliary benefits to the LucasFilm license that offset an increased cost of production: an established fanbase, a younger audience, built in collectibility, etc.  I would absolutely agree with you on any of those.  In the opinion of Wizards of the Coast, those benefits don't outweight the costs of the license (costs which are likely more than financial).

The bottom line is that in business, it is not enough to be 'profitable'.  You have to be as profitable as is possible.  We have no evidence that Star Wars was truly 'profitable'.  

This contradicts what you say above, and it's not even correct anyways.  14 sets.  We most certainly have a ton of evidence that proves that it was quite profitable.  The question is related to the many misteps and ambivalence on the part of WotC for the line.

We know that it sold, but do not know whether or not it sold well enough to cover its fixed costs.  We do, however, know that it did not sell as well as other, more profitable, lines from the same company.  

BS - 14 sets.  We absolutely know this statement to be patently false.

Unfortunately, you seem to be making the same mistake as a great many armchair businessmen make.  Sales do not equal profits.  Continued production is not evidence of past profit.  Profit is the amount of money earned minus expenses.  We know that SWM made money.  We do not know that it made more than its expenses, and we are certainly not in any position to predict whether or not it will continue to do so (again, product life cycle). 

There are any number of reasons that WotC may have continued the line, even if they weren't meeting their fixed costs, not the least of which is that they were likely contractually obligated to do so by the terms of their license. 

I am not saying that WotC did right by the SWM line.  I think there were a whole lot of things they could have done better.  They could have (and should have) had developers more familiar with the universe and lore.  They could have done a better job marketting and cross-promoting with other LFL products.  They didn't.  Could SWM have been more successful?  I believe that it could have, given the right circumstances and a bit of financial investment in the right places.  Unfortunately, WotC didn't seem to want to take any greater risk than what they had already taken by agreeing to the license in the first place.  To my eyes, it is a clear case of 'no guts, no glory'. 

That said, if they know that they aren't going to be willing (or able) to change their existing practices, and their existing practices with that line are not profitable, then they are right to abandon the line and invest the resources where they will provide a greater return.

I know that if it were my company I would have made the same decision.



I wouldn't've. To me, I don't see a reason to discontinue a profitable product just because it has a lower margin than another product I produce.

You say that a business has to be as profitable as possible to succeed, if that were the case, retail stores wouldn't be carrying most of their products. For instance, a store makes about the same amount of money selling a large bag of Sweetheart conversation hearts as they do selling a PS3. If profit margin was all the store cared about, why would they carry Playstations?

Retail is a slightly different animal than production, but again, it is all about profits and fixed costs.  Not profit margins of individual products, which is distinct (but related).  In this case, the reason for carrying a wide variety of goods has to do with fixed costs and market saturation.  A large space has higher total fixed costs but lower fixed costs per square foot than a smaller space.  However, if you fill the large space with a single type of item you reach market saturation, where supply outpaces demand.  That leaves you with dead inventory which is essentially lost money.  Filling with a number of different products allows you to have lower average costs per square foot while not reaching market saturation with any one product.  This is why the two most popular types of store are botiques (where total fixed costs are lower, cost per ft^2 is higher, but they reach a demand not being filled elsewhere) and department (where fixed costs are higher, cost per ft^2 is lower, and they deal in quantity to offset the greater total costs).

A couple things to consider about the SWM game being cancelled.

First, until last year DDM and SWM had very similar distribution formats (i.e. total random).  I assume the productions costs of the two lines were very similar as well, with the excption of SWM having to pay Lucas.  To make up for this greater cost SWM had one less fig per booster (7 vs DDM 8) and had the additional rarity of VR to encourage more buying.

Last year DDM changed distribution formats so it would be hard to compare the two lines.  However, later this year DDM is going back to a similar distribution model as SWM but with a couple changes.  First, the new random boosters will only have 6 minis ad now DDM will have the VR rarity.

So extrapolating to the SWM line if they did continue to produce the SWM then we would probably get boosters of 4-5 minis for the same cost as the 7 fig boosters we currently get.  I am sure that would not sit well with the customers and would probably cost them sales.

Another point I made on my last post is that many people (like myself) are probably losing interest in the product as the new figs get into more non-mainstream SW stuff (e.g. KOTOR and Legacy) and as the mainstream stuff (e.g. movies) are dulplicated over and over.

Given these two points I am not surprized to see the line cancelled.

 Any Edition


Now I'm going to go to eBay and buy all of the POGs I can find, because no one can ruin them. Not anymore.



Unless they use one of those heavy metal slammers.



Wow, someone else that remembers POGs.  I'll sell you all that I have left.



I Remember pogs, and I actully played the pog game that was a combination of pogs and magic the gathering.

Another point I made on my last post is that many people (like myself) are probably losing interest in the product as the new figs get into more non-mainstream SW stuff (e.g. KOTOR and Legacy) and as the mainstream stuff (e.g. movies) are dulplicated over and over.

I agree exactly with the point made by fjw70.They really needed to start varifying on their minis.But that isnt a worry now as they are stopping them.I will keep collecting them though as i am a huge star wars fan.I too got fed up of a stormtrooper appearing in every set though lol.



I do credit SWM for introducing me to other areas of the SW universe.  When they started going more non-mainstream I would see a few figs in each set that looked very cool and than I would research who they were (e.g. I love the Imperial Knights eventhough I have not read the Legacy comics).

 Any Edition

Yeah that era is great in the Star Wars universe.Im actually really waiting for some authors to turn the comics into books.
I dont know whether this applies to anyone but a collector like myself but i just got tired of the continous redoing of certain people.
There you used to be a time i would open a booster and go "oh wow, Luke Skywalker! Yeess!" but now it has just come to me that if i get one even though i need it it doesnt excite me anymore like tyhe way it used to.
That btw is my biggest fear for masters of the force- another bloody luke argh...and its gonna happen i know it!
Yeah that era is great in the Star Wars universe.Im actually really waiting for some authors to turn the comics into books.



I don't care for comics, but I might read the stories from that era if they turn them into books.  Maybe (I haven't read a SW book in a while -- so who knows).


I dont know whether this applies to anyone but a collector like myself but i just got tired of the continous redoing of certain people.
There you used to be a time i would open a booster and go "oh wow, Luke Skywalker! Yeess!" but now it has just come to me that if i get one even though i need it it doesnt excite me anymore like tyhe way it used to.
That btw is my biggest fear for masters of the force- another bloody luke argh...and its gonna happen i know it!



So 15 different Lukes (not including the speeder ones) is too much for you?

I just bought a Dark Times booster yesterday and I pulled my 5th Chewie.  I think I am set on Chewbaccas.

 Any Edition

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