## DPR King Candidates 2.0

1766 posts / 0 new

## Pages

Here's an unexpexted level 1 dpr candidate:

~19.2 DPR, 21.42 DPR (CA)  Human Shavenger(1st), by Paultimatum (8@*)

Human Avenger|Shaman 1

Wis 20
Feats:
Hybrid Talent: Spirit's Power, Power of Strength
Greataxe

Overwhelming Strike
Attack: +7 vs. AC 15
Hit: 1d12 + 5 wis + 2 feat
Secondary Attack: +5 vs. Ref 13
Hit: 1d10 + 5 wis

Math:

Show
Overwhelming Strike: ((1-(1-0.65)^2) - (1-(1-0.05)^2))*13.5 + (1-(1-0.05)^2)*25.5 = 13.01625
Chances of Overwhelming Strike hitting: (1-(1-0.65)^2) = 0.8775
Spirit’s Fangs: (0.6*10.5 + 0.05*15)*0.8775 = 6.186375

DPR: 13.01625 + 6.186375 = 19.202625

With CA:
Show
Overwhelming Strike: ((1-(1-0.75)^2) - (1-(1-0.05)^2))*13.5 + (1-(1-0.05)^2)*25.5 = 13.82625
Chances of Overwhelming Strike hitting: 0.9375
Spirit’s Fangs: (0.7*10.5 + 0.05*15)*0.9375 = 7.59375

DPR: 13.82625 + 7.59375 = 21.42

Which is, I believe, the current record.

To do this, you ready an action to attack your target, with some trigger you know will occur (when someone with initiative in between you and the enemy attacks is a good one, if there are none your target attacks can work too). You attack it with overwhelming strike, and if you hit, you slide it into your square. This triggers your spirit companion's oppotunity action power, Spirit's Fangs. This is not an opportunity attack, and so is not restricted from being triggered by forced movement; its trigger is "when an enemy leaves an adjacent square without shifting".

You do have to have both you and your spirit companion adjacent to the enemy, but this is just as easy as getting yourself there, since you can move  your spirit companion as part of your move, and can summon it within 20 squares as a minor action.

Edit 2: Changed from dwarf to human for the hybrid talent feat, and adjusted accordingly. Also fixed the tactics so that they actually work. The * is in the key brackets to show that there are other possible cheese factors without key entries, namely readied actions and "leaving a square". Thanks to tl and everyone else for helping to make this work.

I think I fixed most of the formatting problems, before there was blank space all over. I don't know how to add a link in the title, sorry.

borg285
Joined Dec 1969
I'm sorry but the general rule is that forced movement does not provoke OAs.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'm sorry but the general rule is that forced movement does not provoke OAs.

That's not actually a general rule. That's a rule specific to opportunity attacks. Spirit's Fangs is an opportunity action that's triggered by an enemy leaving an adjacent square without shifting, and is not subject to the restriction on opportunity attacks
Here is a level 30 build which abuses Wizard's Fury for fun and profit.  The new twist is that it's a sorcerer who also spams Lightning Daggers, which lets you make a free action attack once a round, for a total of three attacks per round, every round.  At heroic and paragon tiers, he's just an ordinary sorcerer, while at lower epic levels, he can only use Lightning Daggers for two encounters a day (three at 26th level) and doesn't quite have the featspace for the full Frostcheese.

Details of the build

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Triple-Zapper, level 30
Half-Elf, Sorcerer (Cold Dragon Soul), Academy Master, Archmage
Archspell: Lightning Daggers
Background: Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16.

AC: 41 Fort: 41 Reflex: 42 Will: 43
HP: 171 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +25, Athletics +26, Diplomacy +30, Endurance +22, Acrobatics +22

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +23, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, History +18, Insight +17, Intimidate +23, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +18, Stealth +17, Streetwise +23, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Bardic Dilettante
Level 2: Combat Virtuoso
Level 4: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 6: Focused Expertise (Dagger)
Level 8: Arcane Implement Proficiency (Light Blade)
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 14: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 16: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 18: Lasting Frost
Level 20: Wintertouched
Level 21: Multiclass Mastery (Arcane Initiate, Adept Power: Wizard's Fury)
Level 22: Nimble Blade
Level 24: Epic Reflexes
Level 26: Sorcerer Implement Expertise
Level 28: Arcane Admixture (Cold, Magic Missile
Level 30: Arcane Admixture (Cold, Lightning Daggers)

POWERS
Arcane Initiate: Winged Horde
Dilettante: Magic Missile
Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer utility 2: Spatial Trip
Sorcerer utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer utility 10: Spirit's Eclipse
Sorcerer utility 16: Draconic Majesty
Sorcerer utility 22: Platinum Scales
Sorcerer encounter 7: Spark Form
Sorcerer encounter 23: Sun and Stars
Sorcerer encounter 27: Overpowering Lightning
Sorcerer daily 9: Adamantine Echo
Sorcerer daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Howling Tempest)
Sorcerer daily 19: Aspect of the Dragon (retrained to Wizard's Fury at Adept Power)

ITEMS
Shadowdance Starleather Armor +6, Radiant Dagger +6, Amulet of Protection +6, Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Eagle Eye Goggles (epic tier), Ankhmon's Bracers (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (paragon tier), Shadowfell Signet (paragon tier), Salve of Power (heroic tier) (3), Solitaire (Aquamarine) (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier), Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Subtle Dagger +6, Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Potion of Recovery (epic tier), Keoghtom's Ointment (paragon tier) (2), Eager Hero's Tattoo (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Standard tactic for this build is to throw down Wizard's Fury+Magic Missile+Lightning Daggers in the first round, and then Magic Missile+Lightning Daggers+whatever in subsequent rounds.  Most of the time the "whatever" will be a Dragonfrost (possibly augmented by Learned Boost or Master's Surge from Academy Master).  With the Salves of Power he has on hand, he can keep Wizard's Fury going for up to six encounters a day (or, alternatively, have Wizard's Fury for four encounters a day, Adamantine Echo for two encounters, and Platinum Scales for two encounters).

All in all, DPR of the Magic Missile+Lightning Daggers+Dragonfrost combo against level-appropriate defenses (average NADs for a level 30 monster = 42), assuming he hit with an at-will the previous round, is 205.225.

DPR analysis

Attack bonus with Magic Missile and Dragonfrost:
+15 levels
+8 Cha (even for Magic Missile, due to Combat Virtuoso)
+6 Enhancement
+3 Expertise
+3 Eagle-Eye Goggles
+3 Combat Advantage with Nimble Blade from Wintertouched
+1 Academy Master bonus from hitting the previous round with an at-will
=+39

Attack bonus with Lightning Daggers is +36 because Eagle-Eye Goggles don't apply.

Therefore, probability distribution of outcomes for his attacks against NADs of 42 is
80% chance of a normal hit with Dragonfrost or Magic Missile
65% chance of a normal hit with Lightning Daggers
10% chance of a critical hit

Magic Missile damage is
4d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+3 Int
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=75.5 average, or 119 on a crit (Radiant Dagger+Ring of Giants)

Dragonfrost damage is
2d8 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=79.5 average, or 124 on a crit

Lightning Daggers damage is
2d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=70.5 average, or 111 on a crit

Putting it all together, total DPR is
75.5*80% + 119*10% + 79.5*80% + 124*10% + 70.5*65% + 111*10% = 205.225

intro
Joined Dec 1969
I'm sorry but the general rule is that forced movement does not provoke OAs.

That's not actually a general rule. That's a rule specific to opportunity attacks. Spirit's Fangs is an opportunity action that's triggered by an enemy leaving an adjacent square without shifting, and is not subject to the restriction on opportunity attacks

You do run afoul of the rule that you can't take opportunity actions on your own turn. (PHB 268)
Mengu74
Joined Dec 1969
You do run afoul of the rule that you can't take opportunity actions on your own turn. (PHB 268)

As long as we're bending rules here, that limitation can be gotten around by readying your action. You ready an action to attack with overwhelming strike when your turn ends. Your turn ends. As an immediate reaction, you attack, and since it's not your turn any more, you can take the opportunity attack.

His DPR calculations however are incorrect. Overwhelming Strike actually has higher DPR, and the DPR for Spirit's Fang needs to be multiplied by Overwhelming Strike's hit chance.

Overwhelming Strike DPR = 0.78*14.5 + 0.0975*26.5 = 13.89375
Spirit's Fang DPR = (0.8775)*(0.6*10.5 + 0.05*15) = 6.186375
Total DPR = 20.08013

This is contingent upon a DM's interpretation of "leaving a square" and allowing ready action shenanigans.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Pure RAW Mengu74 is correct.  An opportunity attack is a subset of opportunity actions, and the forced movement is indeed a restriction on opportunity attacks.  Spirit fangs is an opportunity action not an attack.  I just feel like I'm pushing the envelope of cheese.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
tl.744
Joined Dec 1969
While I agree that Spirit's Fangs should by RAW work with readied Overwhelming Strike (though I feel such a combo is a bit to cheesy), hybrid shaman doesn't give you Spirit's Fangs. ("You don't gain ... or any of the powers granted...").
You can however take a Hybrid Talent feat to get it. but losing Dwarven Weapon Training lowers you DPR to ~17.5. ATM I'm trying various combinations with Human for a second feat, but my highest so far is ~18.3. expect a build and a calculation when I decide on the feat (WP Ex. Axe is winning).

EDIT: of all the feats I can think off, none grants +2 damage
therefore I turn once again to Longtooth Shifter. I'm getting sick of assuming being bloodied, but that's what it takes I guess.

Longtooth Shifter Avenger 1
Wis 20
Hybrid Talent: Spirit's Power
Greataxe Overwhelming Strike
Attack: +7 vs AC
Hit: 1d12 + 5 + 2
secondary attack: +5 vs Ref
Hit: 1d10 + 5

DPR: ~19.2
numbers
Overwhelming: ((1-(1-0.65)^2)-(1-(1-0.05)^2))*13.5 + (1-(1-0.05)^2)*25.5 = 13.01625
Fangs: (0.6*10.5 + 0.05*15) = 7.05

chances of Overwhelming hitting: (1-(1-0.65)^2) = 0.8775

DPR: 13.01625 + 0.8775*7.05 = 19.202625

great find Paultimatum, another great contester, and another one failing short of 20 DPR
I was hoping to get that 20 DPR mark... so close. Your modified longtooth shifter version probably still gets there with CA.

indeed it does! with CA, this build passes the 20 DPR mark as first 1st level character on this thread! actual DPR, if anyone cares, comes out at 20.435625 DPR (CA), though other then breaking the barrier the build assumes a bit to much on both the your part (being bloodied and CA (are you really trying to get killed?)) as on the rules side (the ready/opportunity workaround). I'd rather see this doesn't get on the first page.

I was under the assumption of a 12+level reflex, and perhaps i should assume a 13+level reflex.

it's not that you're assuming the wrong defenses. we're all assuming 14+ AC and 12+ NADs, since that's how you put it in the OP. you're just including the crit roll in the hit rolls. example:
your level 1 sorcadin has an attack +4 vs Ref. Ref at level one is 13. you would hit on a 9, giving you 60% hit rate, or .6 (you miss on 1 through 8). but in this 60% a roll of 20 is also included, so the calculations should be ((chance of hit)-(chance of crit))*(hit damage)+... making it only .55*(10.5) + 0.05*(12).
I don't know if I explained it well enough, but some of your build are hitting 5% to much.

also, what is general CO board opinion on using encounter-long buffs and stances from encounter powers in DPR calculations? is it banned, is it shunned at, are utilities ok but attack powers not, or are we ok with it?
Oops, I had forgotten about the no opportunity actions on your own turn. The specific wording of the power does allow it to be triggered by forced movement, but it still can't be on your own turn.

Thanks for pointing out the readied action use and the DPR problems; of couse the second attack only happens if the first hits, definitely should have noticed that. How do you calculate oath hit chance correctly? Something didn't seem right, but I couldnt figure out where the problem was. I'll edit the post now to fix it (and while I'm at it, I'll put the build in the right format).

Anyway, sorry to start a debate over opportunity actions here. I like this thread, there's lots of interesting stuff. I might try to fill in some blank categories (encounter nova, non-item-specific candidates) just for completeness.

What would the rules be for an assassin with hidden insight? Assassins may not be good at much at higher levels, but if they are allowed to stay hidden and place shrouds beforehand, they could do well at level 1 encounter nova. Just thought I'd check.
tl.744
Joined Dec 1969
rather then calculating odds of something happening, you calculate the odd for it to not happen.
if there's q chance for hitting (including crits), 1-q is the chance for missing.

(1-q)^2 is the chance then to miss with both rolls, and subtracting from 1 again gives you (1-(1-q)^2) = chances of hitting with at least one d20. the problem with that is that it includes the criticals, so you have to subtract chances of critting.

if your chances to crit are 0.05, chances of not critting are 1-0.05, chances of not critting on either of d20s is (1-0.05)^2 and chances of critting are (1-(1-0.05)^2)

so the equation would be

((1-(1-q)^2)-(1-(1-t)^2))*d + (1-(1-t)^2)*D
variable meaning
q ~ chance to hit, including critting
t ~ chance of critting
d ~ damage on hit
D ~ damage on crit

on a side note, can anyone tell me why the weird look with sblock formatting in the previous post; the one with DPR calculations.
EDIT: it seems that the first sblock after a quote will have a weird empty space between the text and the grey. another interesting thing I discovered: if you close a sblock without making one, all the text after it will shift left.
Thanks. I missed a few replies while I was writing that, so I'll add this. Apparently I was reading the hybrid talent entry when I saw that you got Spirit's fangs... I always seem to miss the trasition from features granted to hybrid talent options. I agree it's cheesy, but I like coming up with unexpected ways of getting good damage. I was hoping to get that 20 DPR mark... so close. Your modified longtooth shifter version probably still gets there with CA.

I'll also try fiddling around with it to see if anything helps.\

Edit: I found a feat giving +2 damage: Power of Strength. This eliminates the bloodied part. I'll edit it into my orginal post. Personally I think this would be fine now to go in the main list; it does have potential cheese issues, but so do others. I've put a * for now in its key entry (which doesnt have anything attached to it) just to show theres something else.

borg285
Joined Dec 1969

I was under the assumption of a 12+level reflex, and perhaps i should assume a 13+level reflex.

it's not that you're assuming the wrong defenses. we're all assuming 14+ AC and 12+ NADs, since that's how you put it in the OP. you're just including the crit roll in the hit rolls. example:
your level 1 sorcadin has an attack +4 vs Ref. Ref at level one is 13. you would hit on a 9, giving you 60% hit rate, or .6 (you miss on 1 through 8). but in this 60% a roll of 20 is also included, so the calculations should be ((chance of hit)-(chance of crit))*(hit damage)+... making it only .55*(10.5) + 0.05*(12).
I don't know if I explained it well enough, but some of your build are hitting 5% to much.

also, what is general CO board opinion on using encounter-long buffs and stances from encounter powers in DPR calculations? is it banned, is it shunned at, are utilities ok but attack powers not, or are we ok with it?

Thank you for clarifying that.  I was indeed making that mistake.  I'll fix it later today.  I've been really busy.
Encounter long buffs (wizard's fury, encounter stances...) are all fine by most, if not all.  It's a representation of how well you can perform in most encounters of the day.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Here is a level 30 build which abuses Wizard's Fury for fun and profit.
DPR analysis

Attack bonus with Magic Missile and Dragonfrost:
+15 levels
+8 Cha (even for Magic Missile, due to Combat Virtuoso)
+6 Enhancement
+3 Expertise
+3 Eagle-Eye Goggles
+3 Combat Advantage with Nimble Blade from Wintertouched
+1 Academy Master bonus from hitting the previous round with an at-will
=+39

Attack bonus with Lightning Daggers is +36 because Eagle-Eye Goggles don't apply.

Therefore, probability distribution of outcomes for his attacks against NADs of 42 is
80% chance of a normal hit with Dragonfrost or Magic Missile
65% chance of a normal hit with Lightning Daggers
10% chance of a critical hit

Magic Missile damage is
4d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+3 Int
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=75.5 average, or 119 on a crit (Radiant Dagger+Ring of Giants)

Dragonfrost damage is
2d8 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=79.5 average, or 124 on a crit

Lightning Daggers damage is
2d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=70.5 average, or 111 on a crit

Putting it all together, total DPR is
75.5*80% + 119*10% + 79.5*80% + 124*10% + 70.5*65% + 111*10% = 205.225

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to not allow this, as this DPR is only a representation of 3 encounters / day.  We allow daily powers because some are rechargable through salves of power and it has been shows that you can rely on this daily power for 5 encounters / day in paragon, and 7 encounters / day in epic which, I've felt, is a good limit on encounters for the average party.  Since this is an epic candidate and you only get this DPR for 3 encounters / day I cannot allow this.  I am happy to hear your argument as to why you feel it should be allowed.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
As long as we're bending rules here, that limitation can be gotten around by readying your action. You ready an action to attack with overwhelming strike when your turn ends. Your turn ends. As an immediate reaction, you attack, and since it's not your turn any more, you can take the opportunity attack.

A strict reading of the PHB regarding readied actions points to this not being kosher.  Readied actions can only be triggered by an action (when the target moves, when it attacks, etc) and cannot be simply "on the target's turn" or "when my turn ends".  (PHB291)
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
As long as we're bending rules here, that limitation can be gotten around by readying your action. You ready an action to attack with overwhelming strike when your turn ends. Your turn ends. As an immediate reaction, you attack, and since it's not your turn any more, you can take the opportunity attack.

A strict reading of the PHB regarding readied actions points to this not being kosher.  Readied actions can only be triggered by an action (when the target moves, when it attacks, etc) and cannot be simply "on the target's turn" or "when my turn ends".  (PHB291)

I think that can be safely resolved by readying your action on the trigger of 'before he attacks' as he must either move (thus either provoking an OA or the spirit fangs) or attacking.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
That mostly works, execpt it can't be before he attacks; the trigger could be when he attacks, and then you'd make the attack after his. Alternately, if your initiative isn't directly before your taget's, you can trigger the attack on another enemy's movement or attack, or even better your ally's. One way or another, you should be able to predict at least one action by someone other than yourself during a round.

That's a rule specific to opportunity attacks. Spirit's Fangs is an opportunity action that's triggered by an enemy leaving an adjacent square without shifting, and is not subject to the restriction on opportunity attacks

Someone asked me about this in my shaman handbook.  The PHB states on page 285 that neither Opportunity Attacks nor Opportunity Actions are triggered by forced movement

"Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions"
tl.744
Joined Dec 1969
I don't know how to add a link in the title, sorry.

you either write it manually in html code like this:
[a href="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22105109/DPR_King_Candidates_2.0"]DPR Kings 2.0[/a] but making < > brackets. that would create this: DPR Kings 2.0
or you select the text you want to represent the link and click the chain on far left of the toolbar, opening a window for links.

Someone asked me about this in my shaman handbook.  The PHB states on page 285 that neither Opportunity Attacks nor Opportunity Actions are triggered by forced movement

"Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions"

that'd be me. I remembered you had a great Spirit Companion FAQ in your handbook and upon reading it again, I noticed a discrepancy in our opinions. we never stop learning.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Human Rogue | Swordmage - 14 Str, 20 Dex

Feats:
BackStabber
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 80% hit, 5% crit, 20% miss
+10 vs AC (15 at level 1)
5 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 2d8 + 8
5 Dex mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
55% hit, 5% crit, 45% miss
+5 vs AC (15 at level 1)
2 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 3
2 Str mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(8+16+6)) + (0.75*(4.5+9+6))+.8*((0.05*11) + (0.5*(7.5)) = 19.56 DPR, 20.165 DPR if CA on riposte

I broke the 20 DPR at level 1, but it's only with CA and a catch 22 riposte attack.

and for some extra cheese
Bugbear @ 21 DPR

bugbear Rogue | Swordmage - 16 Str, 20 Dex

Feats:
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 80% hit, 5% crit, 20% miss
+10 vs AC (15 at level 1)
5 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 2d6 + 8
5 Dex mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
60% hit, 5% crit, 40% miss
+6 vs AC (15 at level 1)
3 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 4
3 Str mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(10+12+7)) + (0.75*(5.5+7+7))+.8*((0.05*13) + (0.55*(5.5+4)) = 20.775 DPR, 21.5 DPR if CA on riposte

and for some extra but less cheesy
bloodied longtooth @ ~20 DPR

bugbear Rogue | Swordmage - 16 Str, 18 Dex

Feats:
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 75% hit, 5% crit, 25% miss
+9 vs AC (15 at level 1)
4 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 2d6 + 7
4 Dex mod
2 longtooth
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
60% hit, 5% crit, 40% miss
+6 vs AC (15 at level 1)
3 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 5
3 Str mod
2 longtooth
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(10+12+7)) + (0.75*(5.5+7+7))+.8*((0.05*13) + (0.7*(5.5+3)) = 19.19 DPR, 19.98 DPR if CA on riposte

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
That's a rule specific to opportunity attacks. Spirit's Fangs is an opportunity action that's triggered by an enemy leaving an adjacent square without shifting, and is not subject to the restriction on opportunity attacks

Someone asked me about this in my shaman handbook.  The PHB states on page 285 that neither Opportunity Attacks nor Opportunity Actions are triggered by forced movement

"Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions"

Darn, so it does. I guess you could argue that specific overrides general in this case, as the trigger is seems specifically broad. Oh well, let's see what else could give 20 DPR at level 1... (nice job on the swordmage/rogue by the way).
Here is a level 30 build which abuses Wizard's Fury for fun and profit.
DPR analysis

Attack bonus with Magic Missile and Dragonfrost:
+15 levels
+8 Cha (even for Magic Missile, due to Combat Virtuoso)
+6 Enhancement
+3 Expertise
+3 Eagle-Eye Goggles
+3 Combat Advantage with Nimble Blade from Wintertouched
+1 Academy Master bonus from hitting the previous round with an at-will
=+39

Attack bonus with Lightning Daggers is +36 because Eagle-Eye Goggles don't apply.

Therefore, probability distribution of outcomes for his attacks against NADs of 42 is
80% chance of a normal hit with Dragonfrost or Magic Missile
65% chance of a normal hit with Lightning Daggers
10% chance of a critical hit

Magic Missile damage is
4d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+3 Int
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=75.5 average, or 119 on a crit (Radiant Dagger+Ring of Giants)

Dragonfrost damage is
2d8 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=79.5 average, or 124 on a crit

Lightning Daggers damage is
2d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=70.5 average, or 111 on a crit

Putting it all together, total DPR is
75.5*80% + 119*10% + 79.5*80% + 124*10% + 70.5*65% + 111*10% = 205.225

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to not allow this, as this DPR is only a representation of 3 encounters / day.  We allow daily powers because some are rechargable through salves of power and it has been shows that you can rely on this daily power for 5 encounters / day in paragon, and 7 encounters / day in epic which, I've felt, is a good limit on encounters for the average party.  Since this is an epic candidate and you only get this DPR for 3 encounters / day I cannot allow this.  I am happy to hear your argument as to why you feel it should be allowed.

Ultimate Delves only go for 6 encounters.  But if you insist on 7 encounters, just give him another Salve of Power (for a total of 4).  He can afford it.  With the 21st level Archmage feature, he can have 2 castings of Wizard's Fury.  With the 26th level Archmage utility power, he can recharge it for a third casting.  And with 4 Salves of Power, that's 7 castings.  With 2 jars of Keoghtom's Ointment, he's only down a total of 2 surges over the course of the day.
Mengu74
Joined Dec 1969
Someone asked me about this in my shaman handbook.  The PHB states on page 285 that neither Opportunity Attacks nor Opportunity Actions are triggered by forced movement

"Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions"

Thanks for digging that out, this is a relief.

borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Here is a level 30 build which abuses Wizard's Fury for fun and profit.
DPR analysis

Attack bonus with Magic Missile and Dragonfrost:
+15 levels
+8 Cha (even for Magic Missile, due to Combat Virtuoso)
+6 Enhancement
+3 Expertise
+3 Eagle-Eye Goggles
+3 Combat Advantage with Nimble Blade from Wintertouched
+1 Academy Master bonus from hitting the previous round with an at-will
=+39

Attack bonus with Lightning Daggers is +36 because Eagle-Eye Goggles don't apply.

Therefore, probability distribution of outcomes for his attacks against NADs of 42 is
80% chance of a normal hit with Dragonfrost or Magic Missile
65% chance of a normal hit with Lightning Daggers
10% chance of a critical hit

Magic Missile damage is
4d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+3 Int
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=75.5 average, or 119 on a crit (Radiant Dagger+Ring of Giants)

Dragonfrost damage is
2d8 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+5 Academy Master bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=79.5 average, or 124 on a crit

Lightning Daggers damage is
2d4 base
+1d10 Ankhmon's Bracers
+8 Cha
+6 Enhancement
+6 Off-hand enhancement from Dual Implement Spellcaster
+10 Dragon Soul damage bonus
+3 Weapon Focus
+1 Two-Weapon Fighting
+6 Item bonus from Radiant Dagger
+5 Siberys Shard of the Mage
+6 Subtle Dagger
+5 Cold vulnerability from Lasting Frost
+4 Gloves of Ice
=70.5 average, or 111 on a crit

Putting it all together, total DPR is
75.5*80% + 119*10% + 79.5*80% + 124*10% + 70.5*65% + 111*10% = 205.225

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to not allow this, as this DPR is only a representation of 3 encounters / day.  We allow daily powers because some are rechargable through salves of power and it has been shows that you can rely on this daily power for 5 encounters / day in paragon, and 7 encounters / day in epic which, I've felt, is a good limit on encounters for the average party.  Since this is an epic candidate and you only get this DPR for 3 encounters / day I cannot allow this.  I am happy to hear your argument as to why you feel it should be allowed.

Ultimate Delves only go for 6 encounters.  But if you insist on 7 encounters, just give him another Salve of Power (for a total of 4).  He can afford it.  With the 21st level Archmage feature, he can have 2 castings of Wizard's Fury.  With the 26th level Archmage utility power, he can recharge it for a third casting.  And with 4 Salves of Power, that's 7 castings.  With 2 jars of Keoghtom's Ointment, he's only down a total of 2 surges over the course of the day.

Perhaps we're not on the same page.  your build's DPR relies on wizard's fury, Lightning daggers and a standard action to achieve 3 attacks / round.  If it only relied on wizard's fury recharged through salves of power then the DPR is fine.  because lightning daggers is a level 15 daily it is not available for salves of power, but is available for Spell Recall but it only lets you use it for one encounter more / day, not for the 7 required.  This is my understanding and expectations.  Please help me see things from your point if I have misunderstood you.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Dec 1969

And for the fun of it I'd like to show off a build that requires one low level item
24.8 DPR(CA) Bugbear Rogue | Swordmage - 16 Str, 20 Dex ( +1 mage's weapon)

Feats:
Versatile Dualist

Item:
Mage's large Bastard Sword

Riposte Strike: 85% hit, 5% crit, 15% miss
+11 vs AC (15 at level 1)
5 Dex
3 Proficiency (Sword)
1 Magic Weapon

Damage: 1d12 + 2d6 + 7
5 Dex mod
1 magic Weapon
1 Versatile in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
65% hit, 5% crit, 35% miss
+7 vs AC (15 at level 1)
3 Str
1 Magic Weapon
3 Proficiency (Sword)

Damage: 1d12 + 5
3 Str mod
1 magic Weapon
1 Versatile in 2 hands

(0.05*(12+12+5+1+1+3.5))+(0.8*(6.5+7+5+1+1))+0.85*(0.05*(17+3.5)+(0.6*(6.5+5))) = 24.8 DPR, 25.8 DPR if CA on riposte

(0.05*(34.5))+(0.8*(20.5))
0.85*(0.05*(20.5)+(0.6*(11.5)))
And now for his Nova:
Dazing Strike @ 75% hit (we'll assume it does, thus he grants me CA) ((0.05*(22.5))+(0.7*(8.5))= 7.075
Minor: Predatory Eye (+1d6 on next attack with CA)
AP: Riposte Strike @ 85% hit (0.05*(38))+(0.8*(24))= 21.1
Immediate Interrupt catch 22: MBA 75% hit (0.85*(0.05*(20.5)+(0.6*(11.5))))=6.74
Free: Press the advantage(2[w], 1/2 miss)  @ 85% hit, 15% miss ((0.05*(34.5))+(0.8*(15)+.15*(7.5))=14.85

Average Damage total: 49.765 expected damage @ level 1!!!

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Perhaps we're not on the same page.  your build's DPR relies on wizard's fury, Lightning daggers and a standard action to achieve 3 attacks / round.  If it only relied on wizard's fury recharged through salves of power then the DPR is fine.  because lightning daggers is a level 15 daily it is not available for salves of power, but is available for Spell Recall but it only lets you use it for one encounter more / day, not for the 7 required.  This is my understanding and expectations.  Please help me see things from your point if I have misunderstood you.

Lightning Daggers is an encounter power at level 30, thanks to the Archmage level 30 feature.  It's only at lower levels that you have to use Spell Recall on Lightning Daggers (while recharging Wizard's Fury with Salves of Power).  At level 30 the build works fine.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
I'd like to get other opinions on this.  I have the feeling that most on these boards don't use level 30 ED feature in their calculations.  I may be wrong on this, but if they were we'd see most level 30 builds use Demigod's Divine Miracle, Punisher of the Gods' Bringer of Dooms, and Archspell's Living Spell.  All these break the game.  I wanted this to be a repository for semi-plausible builds and have their DPR be a representation of what can be expected out of that build (at least from that point on).  I allow level 30 builds mainly because most on the boards like to build at level 30 where they have the most freedom of feats and items.  I have been told of games starting at level 30 just so you can go tromping around the universe having gladiatorial matches with gods, but I doubt the majority enjoy such extremes.  Please don't get offended that I don't put your build with the rest of them, for if I do then there will be hoards of other builds that will be making of the above level 30 game breaking things.  I am of your opinion that most days don't see past 3 encounters and thus you can reliably use lightning daggers, but we must maintain some standards, and 7 encounters / day and no level 30 feature is what I've felt is a good standard.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'd like to get other opinions on this.  I have the feeling that most on these boards don't use level 30 ED feature in their calculations.  I may be wrong on this, but if they were we'd see most level 30 builds use Demigod's Divine Miracle, Punisher of the Gods' Bringer of Dooms, and Archspell's Living Spell.  All these break the game.  I wanted this to be a repository for semi-plausible builds and have their DPR be a representation of what can be expected out of that build (at least from that point on).  I allow level 30 builds mainly because most on the boards like to build at level 30 where they have the most freedom of feats and items.  I have been told of games starting at level 30 just so you can go tromping around the universe having gladiatorial matches with gods, but I doubt the majority enjoy such extremes.  Please don't get offended that I don't put your build with the rest of them, for if I do then there will be hoards of other builds that will be making of the above level 30 game breaking things.  I am of your opinion that most days don't see past 3 encounters and thus you can reliably use lightning daggers, but we must maintain some standards, and 7 encounters / day and no level 30 feature is what I've felt is a good standard.

You didn't make that clear in your original post.  Now that you've explicitly specified things, I'll see what I can do.  I agree that depending on level 30 ED features is unrealistic; my builds were mainly a theoretical exercise, and not something I'd play all the way through a campaign.  However, I'm not sure if 7 encounters/day is a realistic benchmark for assessing these things.  Ultimate Dungeon Delves only have 6 encounters, and they're really pushing it in terms of how many combats you can run through in a single session.  And even the real meatgrinder modules typically have only 4 combats a day.

tl.744
Joined Dec 1969
I broke the 20 DPR at level 1, but it's only with CA and a catch 22 riposte attack.

go borg, go borg, go borg... Order in the thread!

your post is crawling with typos, though. I figured better then telling you what I found would be if I just fixed them.
Human Rogue | Swordmage - 14 Str, 20 Dex

Feats:
BackStabber
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 80% hit, 5% crit, 20% miss
+10 vs AC (15 at level 1)
5 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 2d8 + 6
5 Dex mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
55% hit, 5% crit, 45% miss
+5 vs AC (15 at level 1)
2 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 3
2 Str mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(8+16+6)) + (0.75*(4.5+9+6))+.8*((0.05*11) + (0.5*(7.5)) = 19.56 DPR, 20.165 DPR if CA on riposte

I broke the 20 DPR at level 1, but it's only with CA and a catch 22 riposte attack.

and for some extra cheese
Bugbear @ 21 DPR

bugbear Rogue | Swordmage - 16 Str, 20 Dex

Feats:
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 80% hit, 5% crit, 20% miss
+10 vs AC (15 at level 1)
5 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 2d6 + 6
5 Dex mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
60% hit, 5% crit, 40% miss
+6 vs AC (15 at level 1)
3 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d10 + 4
3 Str mod
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(10+12+6)) + (0.75*(5.5+7+6))+.8*((0.05*14) + (0.55*(5.5+4)) = 20.015 DPR, 20.775 DPR if CA on riposte

and for some extra but less cheesy
bloodied longtooth @ ~20 DPR

longtooth shifter Rogue | Swordmage - 16 Str, 18 Dex

Feats:
versatile dualist

Riposte Strike: 75% hit, 5% crit, 25% miss
+9 vs AC (15 at level 1)
4 Dex
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 2d6 + 7
4 Dex mod
2 longtooth
1 versatile held in 2 hands

Catch 22 from riposte +aegis of assault with a 80% of imposing
60% hit, 5% crit, 40% miss
+6 vs AC (15 at level 1)
3 Str
3 Proficiency (long sword)

Damage: 1d8 + 6
3 Str mod
2 longtooth
1 versatile held in 2 hands

(0.05*(8+12+7)) + (0.7*(4.5+7+7))+.75*((0.05*14) + (0.55*(4.5+6)) = 19.15 DPR, 19.95 DPR if CA on riposte

I think I got all of them now.

ok, how about a Gnoll?
Gnoll Rogue|Swordmage 1
Str 14, Dex 20
Versatile Duelist

Longsword Riposte Strike
Attack: +10 vs AC
Hit: 1d8 + 2d6 + 8
secondary attack: +5 vs AC
hit: 1d8 + 5
breakdown
5 (Dex) + 3 (prof) + 2 (CA)
5 (Dex) + 2 (blood fury) + 1 (versatile)

2 (Str) + 3 (prof)
2 (Str) + 2 (blood fury) + 1 (versatile)

DPR (CA): 0.75*19.5 + 0.05*28 + 0.8*(0.5*9.5 + 0.05*13) = 20.345 (CA)
or 21.105 (CA, CA) if we assume CA on riposte interrupt

but the real fun starts if we got 2 allies adjacent to the target, triggering Pack Attack (unreasonable, I know; this is here just to show the numbers) (but then again, with a melee heavy party and a solo encounter... ).
though assuming CA on interrupt is probably even less realistic then assuming 1 Pack Attack (either on Strike or interrupt), since the target knows he's facing an interrupt attack and you're marking it, so it can safely shift before attacking, while you're in charge on your turn.
this sblock contains all the possibilities, highest we can get is 23.745 DPR (CA, CA)
if Pack Attack on Riposte but not interrupt: 21.945 DPR (CA), 22.705 DPR (CA, CA)
if Pack Attack on interrupt but not on the attack: 21.225 DPR (CA), 22.145 DPR (CA, CA)
if Pack Attack on both: 22.825 DPR (CA), 23.745 DPR (CA, CA)
Mengu74
Joined Dec 1969
I have a pretty strange 2 target build. Not sure if it works or not, so I need some opinions. It uses deft hurler style to cast Dragonfrost through a Drow Longknife (heavy thrown weapon). Not a lot of DPR compared to other builds, but I thought it was interesting enough to post. Maybe someone can do something better with it.

30.825 DPR (Primary) 37.485 DPR (Secondary) Dragonborn Fighter|Sorcerer, Kensei (16th), by Mengu74 (18?@)

Here is the build

Dragonborn, Fighter|Sorcerer, Kensei 16
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 16
Dragonborn, Fighter|Sorcerer, Kensei
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Hybrid Talent: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent: Tempest Technique
Kensei Focus: Kensei Focus Drow Long Knife
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Cold

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 16.

AC: 26 Fort: 26 Reflex: 22 Will: 26
HP: 99 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +19, Athletics +19, Intimidate +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +7, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +8, Heal +9,
History +9, Insight +9, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +7, Stealth +10, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Drow Long Knife)
Level 4: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 6: Deft Hurler Style
Level 8: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 14: Focused Expertise (Drow Long Knife)
Level 16: Draconic Spellcaster

POWERS
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Hybrid Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Hybrid utility 2: Battle Fury Stance

ITEMS
Frost Drow Long Knife +3, Prime Shot Drow Long Knife +4, Bracers of the Perfect Shot (paragon tier), Eagle Eye Goggles (heroic tier), Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier), Shimmering Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1, Talon Amulet +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Cleave
Attack: +26 vs AC; +8 (level) +6 (str) +3 (prof) +3 (enh) +1 (talent) +1 (Kensei) +2 (expertise) +2 (CA)
Damage: 1d6+32; +6 (str) +3 (enh) +2 (tempest) +4 (Kensei) +2 (feat) +2 (gloves) +1 (talon) +3 (shard) +5 (vuln) +4 (stance)
Crit: 38+3d6

Dragon Frost
Attack: +27 vs Fort; +8 (level ) + 6 (cha) +4 (enh) +1 (talent) +1 (Kensei) +2 (expertise) +2 (Draconic) +1 (item) +2 (CA)
Damage: 1d8+41; +6 (cha) + 8 (str) +4 (enh) +3 (dual impl) +4 (Kensei) +2 (feat) +2 (gloves) +4 (bracers) +1 (shard) +2 (prime) +5 (vuln)
Crit: 49+4d6

Primary target DPR = (0.8*35.5)+(0.05*48.5) = 30.825
Secondary target DPR = 0.85*((0.9*45.5+(0.05*63)) = 37.485

With more items, the DPR can be increased, but I went with the standard budget. I realize it's not that competitive, but when you add the two attacks up, it becomes comparable to the single target DPR's for this level.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
the thing I like about the mage's weapon is that you use both the prof (bastard sword) and use the encounter power as intended.  Throughout heroic you're should have only 1 swordmage encounter power and it should be 1 level higher than the rogue encounter attack power (you get to use this power twice).  You have a nice selection of swordmage daily powers, most have great encounter long effects.

The only problem I see with your gnoll version is that the "blood fury" is that blood fury weapon only lasts for 1 turn, and the racial ability is only turned on while you're bloodied.  We don't have enough money to afford one each round.  Unlike the longooth version it doesn't last the whole encounter.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
Just thought of some strategery:  When using a dire boar to charge the push 2 helps get you into position for the next turn's charge.  The problem arises when it comes up to your foe's turn.  He is prone and 2 squares away from you.  He'll want to charge you.  He can because you're 2 squares away.  Now you're screwed because you must provoke an OA to get far enough away from him to charge him.  Thankfully you can push him up to 2 squares away and you just choose 1 square.  This means on his turn he must use a move action to get up and charge an ally putting him in an easy position to charge into CA.
As per the  Longtooth Shifter Avenger (6th), by tl I think that power of skill switching over from strength to wisdom, is a better option.  You get less DPR, but the ability to reposition through overwhelming strike and then push 1[2]  is priceless.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Mengu74
Joined Dec 1969
Just thought of some strategery:  When using a dire boar to charge the push 2 helps get you into position for the next turn's charge.

Choosing to make the boar go before your attack, you can just push 0, knock prone first, and then attack with CA. And if you're using power of skill overwhelming strike for your charge, you can then shift 1, still leaving the prone target at a pickle.
tl.744
Joined Dec 1969
The only problem I see with your gnoll version is that the "blood fury" is that blood fury weapon only lasts for 1 turn, and the racial ability is only turned on while you're bloodied.  We don't have enough money to afford one each round.  Unlike the longooth version it doesn't last the whole encounter.

we're low level noobs at this point, we can't afford anything fun. but  yes, I agree. being bloodied is a bitch, but my dragonborns assumed it from the first post in this thread. it's dangerous, it can get you killed, and it helps your DPR. with the right type of healer and being careful, it can work; it's a gamble you take.
As per the Longtooth Shifter Avenger (6th), by tl I think that power of skill switching over from strength to wisdom, is a better option.  You get less DPR, but the ability to reposition through overwhelming strike and then push 1[2] is priceless.

but if we go this route, we're leaving DPR optimization waters. agreed, a 20 Str Avenger charging with MBA is something I would never play, but it gets highest DPR. DPR is easy to compare, and straight forward, including anything else complicates things and would lead to similar problem as defenses.
"how much DPR is ok to trade for slide 1, and how much is too much?" "if I lose 10% DPR but make a build much more playable, which one is better?" if we consider this, we should also consider other problems, like "how are you charging your oath target every turn?" but that's why we post some assumptions with the builds, to circumvent problems like this.

on another note, I never really liked mounted builds. it's just that I can't see how you can claim you're always mounted. I mean, I fought in hundreds of places, and in a lot of them I couldn't have had my mount even if I wanted it. tavern brawls, sewerage crawls, narrow corridor towers... in last session, we bashed through some stone to get to some catacombs. if I had a mount, the hole would have to be bigger (we were in a hurry), it would have to squeeze half the time and I have no idea how I'd get it out in the end.
I think having a mount would always increase charger's DPR, but I personally won't use them.

though I do owe you guys one mounted gnoll I believe. and today's special offer...
two gnolls for the price of one!
assumptions: you're bloodied, and you charge a enemy with an adjacent ally. you gain CA thanks to your mount

Gnoll Warlock|Fighter 6
Con 20, Dex 18
Feats:
Hybrid Talent: Tempest Technique, Surprising Charge, Mounted Combat, WE
Items:
Battlecrazed Short Sword +1, Vanguard Short Sword +1, Horned Helm, Bracers of Mighty Striking, Slaughterfang Hyena

Eldritch Strike
Attack: +17 vs AC
Hit: 1d6x2 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d8 + 15
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Con) + 1 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (charge) + 1 (WE) +1 (Talent) + 2 (CA)
1W (Strike) + 1W (Surprising) + 1d6 (curse) + 1d6 (battlecrazed) + 1d6 (helm) + 1d8 (vanguard)
5 (Con) + 1 (Ench) + 2+1 (Pack Attack + Ravaging Charge) + 2 (bloodied) + 2 (bracers) + 2 (talent)

DPR (Ch): 0.85*37+0.05*56.5 = 34.275 (Ch)

when you have high Dex and CA, it's hard to beat the rogue. same assumptions.

Gnoll Rogue 6
Dex 20, Str 16
Feats:
Surprising Charge, WE, Melee Training Dex, Mounted Combat
Items:
Bloodcrazed Dagger +1, Vanguard Dagger +1, Horned Helm, Bracers of Mighty Striking, Slaughterfang Hyena

MBA
Attack: +17 vs AC
Hit: 1d4x2 + 2d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d8 + 16
breakdown
3 (lvl) + 5 (Dex) + 1 (Ench) + 3 (prof) + 1 (charge) + 1 (WE) +1 (Talent) + 2 (CA)
5 (Dex) + 1 (Ench) + 2+1 (Pack) + 2 (bloodied) + 2 (bracers) + 3 (Str on SA)

DPR (Ch): 0.85*41.5+0.05*63.5 = 38.45 (Ch)

@mengu: it all checks out, I can't find any problems with your deft hurler + dragonfrost combo.
This is probably the funniest build I've even made, and it's cheese factor spiraled out of control... which makes it all the more surprising that its key is blank.

Suicide Bomber (1st), by Paultimatum

Dragonborn Sorcerer (Dragon Magic) 1
Feat: Ancient Soul

Riding horse

The ancient soul feat makes your dragon breath power count as an arcane attack power, qualifying it for the sorcerer bonus damage. It also gives the bonus that if your dragon breath is the same type as your resistance, whenever you take damage of that type (after it is reduced), you regain your dragon breath.

So, to regain your dragon breath, all you have to do is include yourself in its effect. Since you can choose any square in your space as the origin square for blasts, you get on a riding horse you buy with your starting gp to become large and blast away.

There are two versions: the first uses two dragon breath attacks per round and a burning spray, the second uses three. The version using 3 per round can only do so when it doesn't miss itself; when it does, it has to include a burning spray to restart the chain.

Version 1
Str 18, Con 13, Cha 18
Show

Dragon Breath:
To hit: 4 str + 2 attack = 6 vs. Reflex 13
Damage: 1d6 + 4 str + 1 con = 8.5

(0.65*8.5) + (0.05*11) = 6.075

Burning Spray:
To hit: 4 cha vs. Reflex 13
Damage: 1d8 + 4 str + 4 cha = 12.5

(0.55*12.5) + (0.05*16) = 7.675

6.075 + 6.075 + 7.675 = 19.825 DPR (3x3)

Disclaimer:
Show

Technically, there should be some complicated multiplying going on to represent your chances of missing yourself with both your dragon breath and your burning spray consecutivly (since you can order your attacks however you want). If this happens, you can't use your second dragon breath that round if you haven't already (you should use the two dragon breaths first if you can), and next round you have to use burning spray first and can only dragon breath if you hit yourself. It gets even more complicated then this, and the initial chances of it occuring are small. Because of this, and the fact that this build is largely impractical anyway, it isn't added.

Version 2:
20 str, 14 con
Show

+7 to hit, 1d6 + 7 damage
((0.7*10.5) + (0.05*13))*3 = 24

24 DPR (3x3)

This version has the same problems as the ones in the disclaimer, only more so.

Both version also have the problem of killing themselves, and their mounts. But that's why they're called suicide bombers, and usually self damage isn't considered (old bloodclaw). ;)

This is just the first thing I thought of when I saw the ancient soul feat. It might not work for one reason or another, but I did check most of the rules. Anyway, it's just for fun.
borg285
Joined Dec 1969
I can't imagine that your mount would want to stay with you that long.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Also probably true. At level two once you can take the hurl breath feat, you dont actually need the mount, and you can already do one dragon breath per round and less damage using blazing starfall. With a few more feats to be able to survive and a few changes, that could actually be a usable build. Still quite cheesy though.
algaron
Joined Dec 1969
You could just wait until lv 11 to get arcane reach.  This could work out rather well.
Hi borg285,

finally found the time to improve the divine feycharger a bit, its now 494 DPR & added your paragon tipps to the main post.
erleni
Joined Dec 1969

Hello,

I worked on an encounter nova build based on the interaction between Threatening Strike and Nightshade's kiss. It's a cheesy-loop build but works by RAW (at least according to the feedback I got here on the CO board). I have some issues in calculating the expected damage but I feel it will be at least some thousands. It can be improved by the use of daily items and rerolls.

Here's the original thread: